The A&G Replay Monday Hour Three

Summary

Armstrong & Getty On Demand

Episode: The A&G Replay Monday Hour Three
Date: September 1, 2025

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Overview

This episode features deep-dives into California politics—especially gerrymandering and state governance—immigration, tech innovation, labor markets, and some lively discussion on American founding principles. Main guests include Congressman Tom McClintock and Vice President for Legal Affairs at the Goldwater Institute, Timothy Sandifer. The hosts critically analyze California’s redistricting battles, illegal immigration policy, the impact of autonomous vehicles, and shifting American historical narratives, mixing informed skepticism with wit and a distinctly libertarian-conservative tone.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. California Redistricting and Gerrymandering

(01:47–06:13)

• Guest: Tom McClintock (Republican Congressman, CA-5th)
• California, like all states, redraws districts every decade, but the process often opens the door for partisan gerrymandering.
  • “Over the years, it’s gone from artwork to science, and it can now be used to badly distort the partisan choices that the voters make.” (McClintock, 02:26)
• McClintock critiques Governor Newsom’s attempt to bypass the independent commission, calling his process a “Gavin-mander.”
• Despite the commission's efforts, McClintock argues the system is still stacked against Republicans due to the inclusion of non-citizens in population counts for apportionment.
  • "Illegal aliens are counted for districting, which increases the proportional influence in Democratic regions." (McClintock, 04:38)
• National perspective: Democratic states’ gerrymandering results in Democrats having more seats than their share of votes.
  • Illinois: "Republicans got 47% of the vote, 17% of the seats. ... Massachusetts, 35% of the vote and zero seats." (McClintock, 04:38)
• The independent commission model is popular—Prop 27’s attempt to abolish it failed resoundingly.

2. Illegal Immigration and Federal Law

(06:13–08:07)

• McClintock criticizes sanctuary policies and selective enforcement of federal immigration law, questioning what other federal laws could be ignored if this precedent stands.
  • “If we don’t enforce our immigration laws, we have no immigration laws. If we have no immigration laws, we have no border. If we have no border, we have no country.” (McClintock, 06:54)
• Claims that mass disregard for federal law under the Biden administration has led to historic migration surges, culminating in forced large-scale deportations.

3. Congressional Role in Immigration Reform

(08:07–10:23)

• Current law mandates detention of illegal immigrants, but executive actions have circumvented enforcement.
  • “We didn’t need new laws. We needed a new president. ... within 30 days, the borders were secured.” (McClintock, 08:25)
• Calls for reforms:
  • Tightening asylum laws so only legitimate cases proceed
  • Closing parole loopholes
  • Improving unaccompanied minor procedures to combat trafficking
  • Restoring integrity to visa programs, citing “13 million visas granted that were completely unvetted” under the Biden administration

4. Presidential Power & National Guard Deployment

(10:23–12:27)

• On Trump’s proposal to send National Guard to Chicago:
  • McClintock, a federalist, defends federal powers in DC and federal law, but advises caution in intervening with local law enforcement unless invited.
  • “Local law enforcement needs to remain in local hands, no matter how badly those local hands are handling it.” (McClintock, 10:47)
• Hosts warn against setting precedents, as federal overreach could be applied by future political opposites.

5. Cultural Trends: The “Latinx” Debate & California Econ Policy

(12:34–14:58)

• The hosts and production team mock the political focus on the term "Latinx", citing its lack of support in actual communities.
  • "Not one person ever in my office has ever used the word Latinx." (Co-host, 12:39)
• Montage of Gavin Newsom using “Latinx” for political purposes while also running from it, reflecting shifting strategies as he eyes a presidential run.
• Broader critique of California governance: loss of 100k private sector jobs, gain of 361k government jobs since 2022, and an emphasis on business-unfriendly policies.
  • “California has created one of the most over-regulated, expensive and risky environments for business in America.” (Bed Bath and Beyond CEO statement, 15:53)

6. California’s Business Environment & Bed Bath and Beyond

(15:36–18:38)

• Explored the CEO’s statement refusing to open stores in California due to overregulation, taxes, and costs. Newsom’s dismissive response on social media is criticized.
  • “Big companies sometimes fail... But it’s the very thing we treasure in America... innovation, adaptation, creativity and sticking to it.” (Co-host, 16:57)
• Hosts assert Newsom’s privileged background blinds him to the realities of entrepreneurship.

7. Technology: Autonomous Vehicles & Privacy

(20:52–29:05)

• Guest: Tim Sandifer (Goldwater Institute)
• Enthusiasm for Waymo and self-driving technology: safer, more accessible, especially for the disabled.
  • “I haven’t been this enthusiastic about a piece of technology in a very long time… They’re going to make driving as safe as flying.” (Sandifer, 24:26)
• Host notes unease about loss of personal autonomy and privacy as cars become fully trackable and controlled.
  • “In my lifetime, it’s gone from I could have traveled...completely without a single human being knowing where I was to now thousands...and maybe all governments knowing where I am.” (Joe Getty, 26:38)
• Sandifer worries about government abuse but feels the key is protecting individual rights, not banning tech.
  • "Both options should be available in a society that respected individual rights. Unfortunately, our society respects that so much less nowadays..." (Sandifer, 27:16)
• Discussion shifts to insurance companies likely making traditional, self-driven cars prohibitively expensive as automated vehicles become safer—a potential death knell for driving freedom.

8. AI, Labor Markets, and Economic Change

(29:05–32:20)

• Sandifer argues that technological innovation, historically, always creates new jobs and opportunities, despite dire predictions.
  • "Every time technology has come along... it actually develops more jobs... new technology opens up new opportunities for economic growth..." (Sandifer, 30:30)
• Hosts voice skepticism whether AI will this time break that pattern.
  • “I really, really want you to be right about that with AI.” (Joe Getty, 31:36)

9. The American Revolution: Historical Narratives

(33:34–40:00)

• Clip from Ken Burns, who calls the American Revolution:
  • “...the most important event since the birth of Christ in all of world history.” (Ken Burns, 33:34 & 35:58)
• Hosts are surprised and pleased by this traditional view after years of more critical historiography (e.g., 1619 Project).
• Burn’s comments highlight the radical idea of citizenship and its historical ripple effects worldwide.
  • “Before this moment, everyone was a subject... We had created... a citizen.” (Burns, 35:58)
• The hosts and Gabby (co-host/producer) endorse the idea that the American founding, despite its flaws, is an extraordinarily positive event.
  • “But that doesn’t diminish the greatness, the wonder of the founding of the country and the principles on which it was founded.” (Co-host/Gabby, 39:37)
• Jonah Goldberg quote is read, emphasizing the global political influence and weight of the American experiment.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Tom McClintock on Redistricting:
  "This, I guess you could call it a Gavin-mander, was drafted behind closed doors in a matter of days." (03:35)

• On Immigration Enforcement:
  "If you’re going to tolerate illegal immigration, it makes legal immigration pointless." (McClintock, 06:54)

• Tim Sandifer on Self-Driving Cars:
  “They’re going to make driving as safe as flying. It’s incredible.” (24:26)

• Ken Burns on the American Revolution:
  “It turned the world upside down… We had created in this moment... a very brand new thing called a citizen.” (35:58)

• On Political Virtue Signaling:
  “Not one person ever in my office has ever used the word Latinx.” (Co-host, 12:39) “He has to run away from it if he wants to be president.” (Joe Getty, 14:31)

• On the Loss of Privacy Through Tech:
  “In my lifetime, it’s gone from I could have traveled...completely without a single human being knowing where I was to now thousands...and maybe all governments knowing where I am.” (Joe Getty, 26:38)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:47 – Tom McClintock joins to discuss CA redistricting
• 03:35 – “Gavin-mander” & critique of Newsom’s redistricting efforts
• 06:54 – McClintock’s core argument on immigration enforcement
• 10:47 – Debate on sending National Guard to Chicago
• 12:39 – Start of Latinx terminology debate
• 15:53 – Bed Bath and Beyond CEO’s statement on business climate in CA
• 20:52/21:03 – Tim Sandifer on the role of Goldwater Institute
• 24:26 – Self-driving car experiences and implications
• 30:30 – Sandifer’s optimism on technology creating jobs
• 33:34 – Ken Burns on the American Revolution’s world importance
• 35:58 – Birth of the citizen, paradigm shift
• 39:37 – Affirmation of American Founding ideals

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Tone and Style

The segment is lively, irreverent, and skeptical of establishment narratives—favoring free-market, libertarian, and traditional American founding themes. There’s plenty of humor (often biting), personal anecdote, and insistence on questioning power, whether it’s governmental or cultural.

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For New Listeners

This episode serves as a penetrating critique of California progressive politics and modern American cultural debates, while championing the importance of historical perspective, the vitality of innovation, and wariness of both bureaucratic overreach and utopian tech promises. The blend of political insight, guest expertise, and cultural commentary is classic Armstrong & Getty.

Transcript

[Jack Armstrong]

This is an iHeart podcast. This labor Day say goodbye to spills, stains and overpriced furniture with washablesofas.com featuring Anabe, the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly pricing. Sofas start at just $6.99, making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Anibe's Pet Friendly stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that stands the test of time with modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your life. Now through Labor Day. Get up to 60% off site [e-mail] Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees, every penny back. Shop [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Joe Getty]

Broadcasting live from the Abraham Lincoln Radio.

[Jack Armstrong]

Studio at the George Washington Broadcast Center, Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty.

[Tom McClintock]

Armstrong and Getty.

[Joe Getty]

And now here's Armstrong and get it not live from Studio C. Armstrong and Getty.

[Tim Sandifer]

We're off.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

We're taking a break and as long as we're off, perhaps you'd like to catch up on podcasts. Subscribe to Armstrong and Getty on Demand or one more thing. We think you'll enjoy it.

[Joe Getty]

3Rd well, currently Tom McClintock is represents the 5th district of California. Will that remain the same after Gavin Newsom gets if Gavin Newsom gets his way about redistricting in California to try to take on the evil Texans. Anywho, welcome to the Armstrong and Getty show. Old friend Tom McClintock again, Republican congressman, fifth district of California. How are you this morning Tom?

[Tom McClintock]

I'm fine Jack. How are you doing?

[Joe Getty]

Great. You've been in California politics forever. What is the back and forth over the years as you know it of like drawn up districts and and whether it was fair or not and all that sort of stuff in California?

[Tom McClintock]

Well, as you know, California, all states reapportion every 10 years because of population shifts. The populations of the districts have to be as equal as we can make them. That of course then opens the door to gerrymandering, which has a long history. It goes back to Elbridge Geary, Governor of Massachusetts, signer of the Declaration of Independence. You know who first began joggling lines so that his would benefit. He drew one district that looked like a salamander. A newspaper editor said, no, let's call it a gerrymander, and the name stuck. But the problem is, over the years, it's gone from artwork to science, and it can now be used to badly distort the partisan choices that the voters make in every election.

[Joe Getty]

And is there any way to do away with this? I mean, it's been going on since the very, very beginning. Lots of Democratic states are all gerrymandered to heck, as we all should know by now. Texas isn't inventing something new.

[Tom McClintock]

Well, California did get sick and tired of it. And they adopted constitutional provision calling for an independent commission. That's what Newsom's trying to bypass the California commission this year in order to do. The reapportionment held 196 public meetings. They received more than 30,000 written communications over nine months. They listened to every constituency and community in the state and they drafted a consensus plan in public. This, I guess you could call it a Gavin Mander was drafted behind closed doors in a matter of days. And if they succeed, I think we expect this to happen after every election that the Democrats don't like the way a particular district voted.

[Joe Getty]

Well, so Republicans account for about 38% of the vote last election around. And if Gavin gets his way, would have 7% of the house members in the state. So that's obviously out of proportion.

[Tom McClintock]

And that's with the independent commission. It's still a stack deck against California Republicans, mainly because illegal aliens are counted for districting, which increases the proportional influence in Democratic regions. So as you point out, it's not only stacked against California Republicans. You look at the vote nationally in 2024, Democrats got 47% of the congressional vote. They got 49% of the congressional seats. That's eight seats more than their vote would entitle them. And that's because in the Democratic states, the gerrymanders are absolutely brutal. You know, in Illinois, California's got Republicans got 47% of the vote, 17% of the seats. Massachusetts, California's Republicans got 35% of the vote and zero seats.

[Joe Getty]

That is really interesting stuff. I wish mainstream media was better at presenting that. And then the gerrymandering, gerrymandering, as you call it, polls very low. Like 6% of Americans like the idea. But it happens all across the country.

[Tom McClintock]

All right? And again, Californians got rid of that. The Democrats, by the way, tried to abolish the independent commission. Once before. That was in 2010 with Proposition 27. Voters rejected it. 60, 40. So, you know, and I think most Americans, you know, whatever their politics, have an innate sense of fairness. And I think that's going to be decisive when this comes up to a vote.

[Joe Getty]

So talking with Republican California Congressman Tom McClintock of California, most recent piece I'm reading here about immigration. I wish that somehow, some way, quickly, it would get to the Supreme Court. This whole notion of a sanctuary city, sanctuary county, sanctuary state, which seems obviously crazy. The whole thing with illegal immigration, the way Joe and I have been presenting it for quite some time, is if you're going to ignore the federal law, what other federal laws can we ignore if we don't like them in states across the country? Can we just pick and choose federal laws that we want to ignore and which ones we want to go with? What's your take on it currently?

[Tom McClintock]

All right. And if you're going to tolerate illegal immigration, it makes legal immigration pointless. Start with some simple truths. If we don't enforce our immigration laws, we have no immigration laws. If we have no immigration laws, we have no border. If we have no border, we have no country. It's not complicated. Our immigration laws weren't written to keep people out. They were written to assure that when someone comes to this country, they come with a sincere desire to become an American, to obey our laws and contribute to our nation. Illegal immigration undermines that whole process, and that's why our current law requires any adult who is illegal in this country to be detained. That's the exact wording of the law shall be detained. It's not voluntary. It is required under the law. That's the law that Biden and the Democrats ignored over the last four years, producing the biggest illegal migration in American history. And now they're shocked that the biggest illegal migration in American history that they unleashed now has to be followed by the biggest deportation.

[Joe Getty]

So Republicans control Congress right now and the Senate. Is there anything Congress can do to strengthen immigration laws so that it's the law of the land and not just something that one administration does so that if the Democrats win next time around, they can go the other direction?

[Tom McClintock]

Right. Well, it is already the law of the land. And you remember the Democrats saying, oh, there's nothing we can do about this without granting amnesty. And as Trump pointed out, we didn't need new laws. We needed a new president. We got one. And within 30 days, the borders were secured. And I think the last number is we're getting close to 2 million illegal migrants have now departed the country either voluntarily or been forcibly removed. But we also, this is where Congress comes in. We've got to enact laws so that a future Democratic president can't once again simply throw our borders wide open. So we've got to reform our asylum laws to ensure that only legitimate claims will be honored. And those who are making such claims are detained until they're adjudicated. We've got to close the loopholes, and that means making the loopholes that allowed Biden to abuse the limited parole authority that Congress gave him. We've got to revamp our unaccompanied minor laws to prevent human trafficking that ran rampant under Biden. And we've got to rescue the hundreds of thousands of children that Biden simply lost track of. And we've got to restore integrity to our temporary and permanent visa programs so that only those who are an asset to America can take advantage of them. The office inspector general is about to come out with a report. I think that they documented that during the Biden administration, there were 13 million visas granted that were completely unvetted. Now, when you apply for a visa, you go to the American consulate in your country and there's an interview. They interview you. They check your background to be sure that as you come in with a visa, you're not going to do any harm and you know that you're going to abide by the terms of the visa. 13 million such visas were issued under Biden without any vetting whatsoever. And that's what the administration is reviewing.

[Joe Getty]

Now, another topic before we let you go, Congressman McClintock, one of the big news stories of the day, Trump talking about sending National Guard troops to Chicago to deal with their crime. Now, I think we're all up to speed on the fact that the president, the federal government, has the constitutional right to do that in Washington, D.C. how do you feel about National Guard troops in Chicago?

[Tom McClintock]

Well, I'm a federalist, and the federal government is absolutely supreme in the federal District of Columbia, as you pointed out. And they are also supreme in the enforcement of federal laws like our immigration laws. And the president has been brilliant at both. But local laws are subject to local jurisdiction. I think we want to be careful if a city is not actually asking for assistance. I think we want to be careful about how we insert federal authority, authority into the enforcement of strictly local laws. And that's going to play out. Obviously, I'm not entirely clear what the president is proposing for Chicago, but local law enforcement needs to remain in local hands no matter how badly those local hands are handling it.

[Joe Getty]

I would agree with that. Interesting. Tom McClintock, appreciate your time today. Tom, thank you very much.

[Tom McClintock]

My pleasure, Jack. Good talking to you.

[Joe Getty]

I would agree with that. I am not only skeptical of his legal power to send National Guard troops to Chicago, but I don't know how I feel about that as a precedent. And as Joe and I are always talking about. Joe's in England on vacation. He's going to call in later. But as Joe and I are always talking about, the problem with giving your guy the power to do something or looking the other way if he does something that, like maybe send troops to Chicago, is the other. The other guy, the other side's going to be in charge at some point. And do you want, you know, President Gavin Newsom sending National Guard troops into a conservative city somewhere because he doesn't like the way that place is being run? No, I don't.

[Tim Sandifer]

Armstrong and Getty.

[Joe Getty]

The Armstrong and Getty show. The Latinx stuff that, by the way.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

Not one person ever in my office has ever used the word Latinx.

[Joe Getty]

So.

[Tim Sandifer]

So can we finally put that to bed?

[Joe Getty]

But where did that even. No more Latinx, everybody. Well, just didn't even know where it came to from.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

Like, what are people talking about?

[Joe Getty]

I hope we can really paint a picture in terms of our consciousness of how impactful this has been on the Latinx community. About three quarters of renters in the.

[Tom McClintock]

State that have fallen behind in rent.

[Joe Getty]

Are represented in the Latino and African American community, the Latinx and black communities.

[Tom McClintock]

You've got politicians that are banning not.

[Joe Getty]

Assault rifles, but the word Latinx, they're not even serious. Wow, that's even farther. So that's Gavin Newsom doing his bro podcasts that he's doing all across the country now as he tries to be like just a regular guy running for president. And he's doing a pretty good job of.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

It might work for him.

[Joe Getty]

But claiming that Latinx, whoever even heard of that before? I don't know what does that even mean? And then a little montage of him using the term in recent years, including one in where he's fighting against trying to take away the word Latinx, blasting.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

Anybody who would dare disparage it.

[Tom McClintock]

Oh, boy.

[Joe Getty]

But I'll bet it works. People don't hear the, you know, like in newspapers or books, there's the big headline and then there's a little sentence underneath. People don't hear the sentence underneath 90 of people. They just get the big headline of everything, of every story. And, you know, that's funny though. He's got to run away from so much of that stuff because it's so freaking crazy.

[Tom McClintock]

Oh, yeah.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

I mean, yeah. The list is long of policies that are abhorrent to most Americans and or results that are abhorrent to Americans. For instance, as we outlined last hour, Cal unicorney has lost 100,000 private sector jobs and added 361,000 government jobs since 2022. It's just astonishing.

[Joe Getty]

Well, let's be happy. Let's be happy about this stuff, though, people. Rather than condemning the hypocrisy, we should be happy. He understands that he needs to run away from the nonsense like trans boys and girls sports or the term Latinx, which is one of the dumbest things that's ever happened in my lifetime. He has to run away from it if he wants to be president. He is determined and he's right. And that's good news, right?

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

It is. Although don't let down your guard because we've received, I don't know, half a dozen emails just in the last 48 hours from folks that are getting ready to get back in the classroom as teachers in California and are going through their state mandated DEI white supremacist woke doctrine right now. They're getting educated in that quote, unquote educated. So getting back to Gavi, and we talked about this fairly recently, if you're just tuning in. But the whole Bed, Bath and Beyond thing, the head of Bed, Bath and Beyond, do you have that statement? Or I mean, for people who are not familiar, just real quickly.

[Joe Getty]

Yes, I do. I'm sorry, this is. I got the other screen up about shreking, a dating trend in which people are dating unattractive people on purpose. That story we got to get to later this hour.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

Yes, yes, yes. In different species of giraffes. Yes, I already did the giraffes shreking.

[Joe Getty]

We will do this hour though. It's an actual thing and it's really quite entertaining. So the CEO of Bed Bath and Beyond puts out a statement yesterday. We will not operate or open retail stores in California. This decision isn't about politics, it's about reality. California has created one of the most over regulated, expensive and risky environments for business in America. It's a system that makes it harder to employ people, harder to keep doors open and harder to deliver value to customers. The result, higher taxes, higher fees, higher wages that many businesses simply cannot sustain.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

And then Gavin Newsom in a snarky social media post yesterday replied, the company.

[Jack Armstrong]

That already went bank bankrupt and closed.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

Every store across the country two years ago.

[Jack Armstrong]

Okay.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

All right. So, Gavin, here is my response to your sarcasm.

[Joe Getty]

Anterooms.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

Oh, yeah, Foyers. Don't get me started.

[Joe Getty]

Window treatment. Window treatments. Okay, that's.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

Oh, absolutely, yes. Although you do have windows in beds and baths, Michael. So is it really beyond?

[Joe Getty]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

Okay, where were we? I'm sure there was. Oh, yes. So Gavin's snark about a CEO saying your state is so hostile to business and so difficult to operate in, we're not even going to try. And instead of addressing policy, he says, oh yeah, the same company that went bankrupt and closed all their stores two years ago. Let me explain something to you, Gavin, because you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth. You've been successful in business because you've been bankrolled up to your ears by all of your rich relatives. But here's the way it works. Big companies sometimes fail to adjust with the times. Something, you know, changes. Whatever. They're unsuccessful. They declare bankruptcy and they reorganize. Bed Bath and Beyond has a lot of fans. It's a cool store. I'm a fan. Judy and I shopped there for a lot of stuff for years and years and were super bummed to hear it was closing. Well, now they're reopening with a little different concept that's going to be better for consumers and more likely to be a successful business. It's the very thing we treasure in America, Gavin. Innovation, adaptation, creativity and sticking to it. And these people who are doing that said, the one place we're not going to bother is California because it's so hostile to business. Go ahead, Gabby, give us some more of your clever, clever snark. What a blank. That's. That was the perfect way to end my screed, the Armstrong and Getty show.

[Tom McClintock]

Get more Jack, more Joe podcasts and.

[Jack Armstrong]

Our hot [e-mail] this Labor Day, say goodbye to spills, stains and overpriced furniture with washablesofas.com featuring Anibe, the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly pricing. Sofas start at just $6.99, making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Anibe's pet friendly stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic, high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that it stands the test of time with modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your life. Now through Labor Day, get up to 60% off site [e-mail] Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees. Every penny back. Shop [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

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[Joe Getty]

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[Joe Getty]

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[Tim Sandifer]

The Armstrong and Getty show welcome to.

[Joe Getty]

The show now, old friend of the Armstrong and Getty show and a fan favorite. We always get so many texts and emails saying, man, I love Tim. It's Tim Sandifer from the Goldwater Institute. Tim, welcome.

[Tim Sandifer]

Thanks for having me.

[Joe Getty]

Is there a title you want?

[Tim Sandifer]

A title? Well, you know, as a Jeffersonian, Democratic, Republican, small government Libertarian, I'm against titles. But my official title is Vice President for Legal affairs at the Goldwater Institute, which is a free market think tank and litigation organization headquartered in Phoenix. And my job is to sue the government for a living. Best job in the world.

[Joe Getty]

Oh, thank God for you.

[Tim Sandifer]

Speaking of titles, I win every time, right.

[Joe Getty]

You know, but, but just. Well, sometimes you do win and the Fact that they know they can be sued has probably got to keep them minding their P's and Q's at least a little bit sometimes.

[Tim Sandifer]

Yes, as long as the government still respects the law. You know, hopefully there will be my, myself, my colleagues and you know, our sister organizations across the country who are trying as best we can to hold the government's feet. Constitutional fire.

[Joe Getty]

I'm feeling a wide ranging conversation today for some reason that is just my mood. So you started with mentioning titles. Why do you think people refer to dictators by the title that they want all the time? I'm amazed that everybody in the media, including President Trump, calls Putin President Putin. I mean Obama did too and Biden did too. So it's not just Trump. But why they're not not president. They're a dictator. So why do we go along with their language? We do the same thing.

[Tim Sandifer]

This has bothered me for years. This has bugged me so long that. But I, you know, it's because we don't want to be judgmental. We don't want to, we don't want to call things by their right names and say dictator Putin because that might offend him. So instead we give him the kind of false legitimacy that is exactly what he craves. I think it's a terrible thing, but it's in that way all my life.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, that's, that's weird that, that the Free west does that. You want us to call you by a certain name? Oh, sure, we will. Okay. I guess another question for you. So I was just reading. I know you know a lot about Waymo. The, the robotax is. You actually visited their plant. They make him in Phoenix.

[Tom McClintock]

They.

[Tim Sandifer]

Well, I don't think they make them in Phoenix, but they have a headquarters in Phoenix. Phoenix is one of their largest cities that they are operating in. And they have a garage there which is where all the cars, you know, they're all electric cars. So that's where they go for to recharge. And my wife and I got a chance to go down there and take a tour of their facility and ride for first time in a waymo. And since then I've, I've. I take every excuse I can to ride in them because I just. There, there's. The technology is just mind boggling and I just loved standing there in the garage watching these cars come in and look for parking spaces. And they looked exactly like a human was driving them, you know, pausing and backing up because oh, there's a spot and that sort of thing. Exactly like me at the airport, and yet there's nobody driving them. And I had thought that it would feel weird to ride in one and, and that went away in five seconds. After that it felt exactly like riding in a car with somebody driving it, except there was nobody in the driver's seat.

[Joe Getty]

Interesting.

[Tim Sandifer]

Absolutely marvelous technology.

[Joe Getty]

I wondered about that because I've got a self driving Tesla so I'm used to the concept and I wondered what it was like for people who haven't done that before. But that's the way I was when I wrote a Waymo for the first time in San Francisco. Within a couple of seconds it was, oh, cool, I get to control the music. And I was looking at the little computer in front of me and picking my music.

[Tim Sandifer]

I haven't been this enthusiastic about a piece of technology in a very long time. They have already, just statistically speaking, they have already saved tens of thousands of lives probably in the amount of, in just the amount of time they've already been operating in these cities. They're going to make driving as safe as flying. It's incredible. I'm blown away by how safe and natural it feels to ride in these. And you know, it's particularly good for the blind. You know, blind people particularly love this technology because they can, they don't have to get in a car with somebody they don't know like they do with Uber. And they can take their dogs, which you sometimes can't do in an Uber. And when you call it, when you summon your robot car, it arrives and it plays a tune so you know where it is, you know, and these sorts of tech, it's just marvelous how it's opened up the door for people who otherwise wouldn't have had those opportunities.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, I like the technology and everything. This is where we're probably going to part. I hate the idea that the autonomy of getting to drive where I want to go and having control over it is going to go away whether I like it or not. I hate that so much it makes me want to cry.

[Tim Sandifer]

I do worry about that. No, I worry about that and I worry about how easy it would be for the government to say, well, we want to track where everybody drives and you know, we'll run their, run their record while they're in the car. And then if we think that they need to be arrested, we'll just reroute the car to the police station or something like that. You can, you can easily imagine the dystopian ends to which this can be used. But all technology can be abused in that way. And the, there is no abolishing the technology isn't the solution. The solution is good philosophical and political ideas and a belief in individual rights and limited government. And since we've thrown that on the bonfire in the past decade or so, I mean this is basically, honestly this is the least of our concerns in that respect.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, but I think about when I was, it's not that many years ago. I'm an old man, I mean the winter of my life, life. But it wasn't that many decades ago.

[Tim Sandifer]

Look a day over 80.

[Joe Getty]

But I, I'm a, I've driven all over this country. I long, I love long road trips but I used to head out on road trips.

[Tim Sandifer]

Yeah.

[Joe Getty]

And you know, I'd stop at a hotel, I stay in cheap hotels. They'd have the key hanging on a peg behind the door. Nobody knew I was there. Nobody knew I was there after I left. Now I've got a self driving car that keeps track of every mile I drive. Everywhere I go, I park, park. There's license plate readers going through every parking lot checking where I was and they've got all the information at the hotel. I mean my entire trip is tracked. So in my lifetime it's gone from I could have traveled across the country completely without a single human being knowing where I was to now thousands of people and maybe all governments knowing where I am. I find that trouble.

[Tim Sandifer]

I, I, I totally sympathize. I think this is, I would say there's something very American about this tension between on one hand wanting the convenience that modern technology gives you in modern civilization gives you. But on the other hand the want, the desire to light out for the territory and just be away and free and keep something you might say wild alive in your spirit is a very important part of life. And so I totally get that. My wife and I love to go on long drives and get away from things also. And so I, but on the other hand with this option available for those who are willing to sacrifice a little bit of their privacy in exchange for the enormous convenience of it, the answer is that both options should be available. And both options would be available in a society that respected individual rights. Unfortunately, our society respects that so much less nowadays that I do very much worry about a future where truly individual cars allowing you to drive wherever you want are outlawed. I can imagine that, oh, insurance companies.

[Joe Getty]

Will take the insurance companies will take care of that because as soon as this the stats are so overwhelmingly true that it's less likely you're going to get a wreck with an automated car than without one. The insurance company is going to make it so expensive you can't afford to drive a car on your own.

[Tim Sandifer]

Yeah, I can imagine that. It's sort of a Gattaca kind of a situation.

[Joe Getty]

I don't know that term.

[Tim Sandifer]

Oh, Gattaca is a great movie from the 90s about a dystopian future where they just run along these lines where your entire genetic code is sort of sequenced ahead of time.

[Tom McClintock]

Time.

[Tim Sandifer]

And so people know whether you're likely to develop a health condition in the future and limit your opportunities accordingly, not necessarily through government control, but through a sick blend of government and private companies that exercise their power to deprive you of opportunity. If you haven't seen the movie, you should. It's great.

[Joe Getty]

One more. Way more comment and then I promise after the break, we'll let you talk about some of your wins. Suing the government, which are important. I saw the former. So they're wanting to get Waymo in New York City.

[Tom McClintock]

City.

[Joe Getty]

That'd be a huge win for Waymo, obviously. Yeah, I saw the former mayor Bill de Blasio come out and say yesterday, waymo, New York is not a town for Waymo. We should not have one. And. And I wonder if. Is that just to protect all the jobs of. Is that what that is?

[Tim Sandifer]

Oh, yeah. So it's, It's. They were exactly the same way about Uber back in the day, if you remember. They were. They were very resistant to Uber because the, the tax. They're the taxi drivers, you know, unions and things like that. They don't want the competition. And so it's the. The convenient thing to do is use the government to exclude legitimate competition in order to raise your prices and screw the consumer. And that's been the recipe for centuries. And unfortunately, Waymo and other companies face that opposition. And it's really just an attempt by people who don't want to compete fairly to use the government to block legitimate competition so that they can raise their prices at your expense. It's a violation of individual liberty and it's economically foolish.

[Tom McClintock]

But.

[Tim Sandifer]

But New York has been that way for centuries.

[Joe Getty]

Technology comes along, eliminates another a lot of jobs, but throughout history, it's also created other different jobs. However, I don't think that's going to continue with AI, do you?

[Tim Sandifer]

Oh, I have no doubt that it will continue, really. Every time. Every time that technology has come along and, oh, they're taking our jobs, every time that happens, it turns out that it actually develops more jobs, not just you know, people think, well yeah, but these people become programmers. No, it's not that. It's that new technology opens up new opportunities for economic growth that people could never have foreseen in the years before then. You know the cell phone, I remember when I got my first iPhone years ago. Nobody could ever have imagined something like Uber Eats or Doordash at that time. And now look at how many people earn money working for those companies thanks to smartphone technology. These new technologies open up that nobody could possibly have imagined and people take advantage of that and the economy grows. It's almost like creating something out of literally nothing. It's amazing to see. So there's. I have no doubt that self driving technology will in the long run increase employment opportunities and more importantly increase wealth. And if it's allowed to flourish, if the government doesn't get in the way.

[Joe Getty]

And create roadblocks, I really, really want you to be right about that with AI.

[Tim Sandifer]

Well, historically speaking I've been right about that in every single time that a new technology has come about. The buggy whip makers, I'm sure they complained when the automobile came along and nobody was hiring buying buggy whips anymore. And they were saying, oh, our jobs are going to go overseas. We need to outlaw cars so that the union, the buggy whip union can flourish. And what about the workers, et cetera, et cetera. And here we are living in a society where hardly anybody buys buggy whips and we have more employment and more opportunity and more we than they did back then. So I have no doubt that I'm right about this.

[Joe Getty]

Oh God, I hope you are.

[Tim Sandifer]

Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty the Armstrong.

[Jack Armstrong]

And Getty show this Labor Day say goodbye to spills, stains and overpriced furniture with washablesofas.com featuring Annabe the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. Sofas start at just $6.99 making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Anibe's pet friendly stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that stands the test of time with modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your life life now through Labor Day get up to 60% off site [e-mail] Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love. Send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees. Every penny back. Shop [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Tim Sandifer]

Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty.

[Jack Armstrong]

The Armstrong and Getty Show.

[Guest or Narrator (possibly Ken Burns or Jonah Goldberg)]

The American Revolution is the most important event since the birth of Christ in all of world history.

[Joe Getty]

I loved hearing that. Flipping on Face the Nation. Got back from vacation and they had Ken Burns, the documentary filmmaker, the most famous documentary filmmaker who's ever lived on there to talk about his new documentary about the American Revolution, which is coming out in November. But they interviewed him for 4th of July weekend and him presenting it in. This is a fantastic thing that happened. For world history terms, it's just what my whole life that was normal, but after the last, you know, four or five years of wokeness, it kind of was a little like, knocked me down.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

Whoa.

[Joe Getty]

People still think this.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

Well, I don't want to get off on this tangent too much, but I find myself a little bit surprised as Ken Burns has been a little Howard Zinnish for me in recent years. But I'm glad to hear it. Maybe he's just a canny businessman and he knows who's going to watch these. This documentary, but I love what he's saying.

[Joe Getty]

I hate to be that a cynical.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

Well, that makes you a SAP.

[Tom McClintock]

You.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

Know, before we get into the. More of the interview. Well, I don't want to steal his thunder. We'll do that first. Then I've got another great quote that's a similar sort of sentiment.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, we missed Fourth of July with you while we were gone on vacation. So we're, we're catching up a little on that sort of talk. Talk here. And here's Ken Burns talking about his documentary.

[Tom McClintock]

You call the revolutionary period a civil war. Was that always your conception of the rev?

[Joe Getty]

How did you come to think of it that way?

[Guest or Narrator (possibly Ken Burns or Jonah Goldberg)]

I think because there are no photographs and there's no newsreels and they're in, you know, stockings and breeches and powdered wigs. There's a sense of distance from them. I think we also are so proud, rightfully, of the power of the big ideas that we just don't want to get into the fact that it was this bloody civil war. Patriots against loyalists, disaffected people, native people enslaved and free people within it, foreign powers that are ultimately engaged in this. This is a big world war. By the end, I think we perhaps are fearful that those big ideas are diminished and they're not in any way. They're in fact become even more inspiring that they emerge from the turmoil.

[Joe Getty]

How should we think about the Declaration of Independence?

[Tom McClintock]

This period in America in our present day?

[Guest or Narrator (possibly Ken Burns or Jonah Goldberg)]

First of all, I think the American Revolution is the most important event since the birth of Christ in all of world history. I mean, it turned the world upside down, which is the cliche. Before this moment, everyone was a subject essentially under the rule of somebody else. We had created in this moment and a very brand new thing called a citizen. And this has had powerful effects. It's going to set in motion revolutions for the next two plus centuries all around the world, all attempting to sort of give a new expression to this idea that all men are created equal, that they're endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. And that's a big, big deal in world history.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah. And hearing Ken Burns say that and cbs, you know, going along with it shouldn't be like cold water being splashed in my face. But it was and I was happy to hear it.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

I remember when for a long time, the, the notion again, the Howard Zinnish down with American notion, was it wasn't a revolution, it was just a rebellion. I mean, the colonists not happy with the Crown and they decided they wanted a different government and it came to blows. And no, I mean it instituted on Earth an experiment in self governance and a lot of other incredibly important fundamentals like free speech, that had not been tried. Yeah, it was a rebellion against the Crown, but in favor of trying something wildly new, which is perhaps the most successful experiment that's ever been done.

[Joe Getty]

Well, and to take it further than that, the fact that the 1619 project held sway there for a couple of years and unfortunately still does in your freaking school. Schools, your school's library. The idea that, no, the revolution was to found slavery and make sure we could keep the whole slavery thing going. That was the point of the revolution and that was. That was the prevailing view there for like a year.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

To people with the megaphones of society. Yeah, education and media. It's an obscene suggestion. Absolutely obscene. You know, I'm going to hit you with this real quickly from Jonah Goldberg, then we can get back to the interview. I just don't want to steal all of his thunder. The birth of the United States of America was not merely the most important geopolitical event since the fall of Rome or the most important intentional political event ever. Because Rome's fall wasn't exactly a planned out exercise. It was the signature catalyst for the real world realization of various enlightenment Principles like democracy, human rights, free speech and representative government. The unfolding success of that experiment over the subsequent two and a half centuries with America becoming the single most influential and powerful country in the world, lends even more weight to the momentousness of the American founding. And it certainly ranks among the most consequential events in all of human history, political and non political alike.

[Joe Getty]

No doubt. I mean that to, to argue against that is. Well, it's crazy. You can't, I hope it's over, but you can't look at enough that period we just came through the whole George Floyd 1619 Project, tearing down the statues, which I saw some of in New York, all that sort of stuff, just craziness. We lost our minds. Thank God that didn't win the day. At the time it felt like it was going to win the day.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

Right, right. And if you were fighting against it, good for you.

[Joe Getty]

And I'm so excited that Ken Burns thought, you know, I'm going to do a documentary about the American Revolution and present it as a great good thing like a great thing, like one of the greatest things that ever happened to human beings.

[Co-host or Producer (possibly Gabby)]

Right. As I've said many, many times about religion and a dozen other subjects, if you ask human beings to be in charge of something, it's going to get screwed up. That's the way we are. But that doesn't diminish the greatness, the wonder of the founding of the country and the principles on which it was founded. Yeah, human beings were in charge. So we did a bad job of it. But it's still a wondrous thing.

[Joe Getty]

It's the Armstrong and Getty show Armstrong and get you the Armstrong and Yeti show Conscience of the nation.

[Tim Sandifer]

Armstrong and Getty.

[Jack Armstrong]

This Labor Day. Say goodbye to spill stains and overpriced furniture with washablesofas.com featuring Annabe the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly prices. Sofas start at just $6.99 making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Anibe's pet friendly stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic, high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that stands the test of time with modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your life. Now through Labor Day. Get up to 60% off site [e-mail] Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees. Every penny back. Shop [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Joe Getty]

Ah, come on. Why is this taking so long?

[Jack Armstrong]

This thing is ancient.

[Guest or Narrator (possibly Ken Burns or Jonah Goldberg)]

Still using yesterday's tech Upgrade to the ThinkPad X1 car ultra light, ultra powerful and built for serious productivity with Intel Core Ultra processors, blazing speed and AI powered performance that keeps up with your business, not the other way around.

[Joe Getty]

Whoa, this thing moves.

[Guest or Narrator (possibly Ken Burns or Jonah Goldberg)]

Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech [e-mail] Lenovo Lenovo unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad X1 carbon powered by Intel Core Ultra processors so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device.

[Joe Getty]

Song Stands about an obsessed fan who's.

[Guest or Narrator (possibly Ken Burns or Jonah Goldberg)]

Taking me too literal from Eminem and.

[Jack Armstrong]

The producers of 8 Mile.

[Joe Getty]

Never seen anything like Eminem fans.

[Jack Armstrong]

This is the story of a fan base. I had to look in the mirror and be like, am I one of these crazy Stans that created a culture? I do have an addiction to Eminem.

[Joe Getty]

I travel the world for him. Without Eminem, I wouldn't have the life.

[Tom McClintock]

I have right now.

[Joe Getty]

What's your favorite first question?

[Jack Armstrong]

Stands new documentary now streaming on Paramount plus this is an iHeart podcast.