The A&G Replay Thursday Hour Four

Summary

Podcast Summary: Armstrong & Getty On Demand – The A&G Replay Thursday Hour Four

Release Date: July 3, 2025
Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
Title: The A&G Replay Thursday Hour Four

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Introduction

The Armstrong & Getty Show! On Demand delivers another engaging episode in The A&G Replay Thursday Hour Four, featuring hosts Jack Armstrong, Joe Getty, and co-host Tim Sandifer. The episode delves into pressing societal issues, including the rise of AI chatbots and their implications for youth, the challenges of modern parenting in a digital age, and significant legal debates surrounding nationwide injunctions and birthright citizenship.

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AI Chatbots and Youth: The New Companions

The episode opens with a discussion led by Joe Getty about the increasing reliance of individuals, particularly among the working-class demographic, on AI chatbots for companionship and advice.

Joe Getty [02:59]:
"If that crowd can fall under the sway of this in its current form, mankind is doomed."

Getty expresses concern over how AI chatbots are becoming substitutes for human interaction, especially among demographics traditionally perceived as more rugged or less likely to seek such connections.

He shares a troubling real-life story about a 12-year-old girl using a sex advice chatbot to engage with a 17-year-old boy, highlighting the potential dangers and addictive nature of these AI interactions.

Joe Getty [05:28]:
"The mom got contacted by the school... your child’s using the Chromebook for porn. And then... the kids are having the sex talk with a chatbot."

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Morality in AI: Can Machines Understand Right from Wrong?

The conversation shifts to the moral capabilities of AI systems. Getty questions whether chatbots can be programmed to recognize inappropriate behavior and respond appropriately.

Joe Getty [13:24]:
"Is there any way to program morality into any of this chatbot stuff?"

Tim Sandifer adds that the diverse and fragmented nature of modern morality makes it challenging to instill a universal moral framework within AI.

Tim Sandifer [13:51]:
"All things digital are utterly amoral. They are without morals."

This segment underscores the difficulty of ensuring AI systems can navigate complex human ethics, raising concerns about their role in shaping young minds without a moral compass.

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Parenting in the Digital Age: Navigating New Challenges

Getty and Sandifer discuss the heightened challenges parents face today, compared to previous generations, due to rapid technological advancements and the pervasive influence of AI.

Joe Getty [14:58]:
"This is a harder time to be a parent than it was for previous generations. It's horrible."

Tim Sandifer echoes this sentiment, emphasizing how the accelerated exposure to complex and sensitive topics can overwhelm both parents and children.

Tim Sandifer [15:14]:
"As somebody raised the just one more generation earlier. You're right. You're 100."

They explore the necessity for open communication between parents and children regarding digital interactions and the potential dangers of AI companions.

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Legal Debates: Nationwide Injunctions and Birthright Citizenship

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to analyzing recent oral arguments before the U.S. Supreme Court, focusing on nationwide injunctions and birthright citizenship.

Tim Sandifer [25:40]:
"That was the focus of the argument, and it was a very interesting argument..."

The hosts discuss how nationwide injunctions, typically the domain of appellate courts, are being challenged in their legitimacy and application across the nation. They explore the implications of allowing individual federal judges to issue injunctions that have nationwide effects.

Joe Getty [26:24]:
"The idea that this, that we should do this piecemeal, that only a judge down here, that his order only applies there, meanwhile the government can do illegal things to everybody else in the country until the case reaches the US Supreme Court, makes no sense at all."

The conversation then shifts to the topic of birthright citizenship under the 14th Amendment. Tim Sandifer provides a detailed breakdown of the constitutional language and its interpretations, questioning whether current practices align with the original intent of the framers.

Tim Sandifer [37:56]:
"The first sentence of the 14th amendment says all persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are US Citizens."

They debate the legal nuances of "subject to the jurisdiction thereof," exploring arguments on both sides—those advocating for a stricter interpretation that limits citizenship to certain categories of individuals and those defending the traditional, inclusive understanding.

Unnamed Contributor [42:21]:
"Nobody has ever said that that's what it means. In the 150 years since this has been in the Constitution, everybody has acted like, if you're born here, you're a citizen."

The discussion highlights the potential societal and legal upheaval that could result from redefining birthright citizenship, including the practical challenges and historical precedents—or lack thereof.

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Conclusion: Upholding Constitutional Integrity and Navigating Modern Challenges

In wrapping up, Getty and Sandifer emphasize the importance of respecting and understanding the Constitution in addressing contemporary issues. They advocate for electing leaders who honor constitutional principles and restoring public respect for foundational laws to prevent the erosion of individual rights.

Unnamed Contributor [30:49]:
"We have to restore respect for the Constitution in this country. The long-term damage that's been done to Americans understanding and appreciation of the Constitution is horrifying."

The episode closes with a reflection on the interconnectedness of legal frameworks, technological advancements, and societal values, urging listeners to stay informed and engaged in these critical discussions.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Joe Getty [02:59]:
  "If that crowd can fall under the sway of this in its current form, mankind is doomed."

• Joe Getty [05:28]:
  "The mom got contacted by the school... your child’s using the Chromebook for porn. And then... the kids are having the sex talk with a chatbot."

• Tim Sandifer [13:51]:
  "All things digital are utterly amoral. They are without morals."

• Joe Getty [14:58]:
  "This is a harder time to be a parent than it was for previous generations. It's horrible."

• Joe Getty [26:24]:
  "The idea that this, that we should do this piecemeal, that only a judge down here, that his order only applies there, meanwhile the government can do illegal things to everybody else in the country until the case reaches the US Supreme Court, makes no sense at all."

• Tim Sandifer [37:56]:
  "The first sentence of the 14th amendment says all persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are US Citizens."

• Unnamed Contributor [42:21]:
  "Nobody has ever said that that's what it means. In the 150 years since this has been in the Constitution, everybody has acted like, if you're born here, you're a citizen."

• Unnamed Contributor [30:49]:
  "We have to restore respect for the Constitution in this country. The long-term damage that's been done to Americans understanding and appreciation of the Constitution is horrifying."

---

Final Thoughts

The A&G Replay Thursday Hour Four offers a compelling exploration of how modern technologies like AI chatbots intersect with societal norms, ethical considerations, and legal frameworks. Hosts Armstrong, Getty, and Sandifer provide insightful analysis, encouraging listeners to critically assess the evolving landscape of technology and law while advocating for the preservation of constitutional integrity.

For those interested in the intersections of technology, society, and law, this episode serves as a thought-provoking guide to understanding and navigating the complexities of the modern world.

Transcript

[Jack Armstrong]

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[Joe Getty]

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[Tim Sandifer]

Your bill, ladies.

[Joe Getty]

I got it. No, I got it.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Seriously.

[Joe Getty]

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[Jack Armstrong]

I insisted first. Don't be silly.

[Joe Getty]

You don't be silly.

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[Joe Getty]

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[Unnamed Contributor]

Broadcasting live from the Abraham.

[Unnamed Advertiser]

Lincoln Radio Studio at the George Washington Broadcast Center. Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Armstrong and Getty. And now here.

[Joe Getty]

Here'S Armstrong and get it. So I got a couple of stories, one of them I told before and I, I, I got to be vague about them because they're, they're real life stories people have told me and I don't want them to get in trouble for, you know, passing along more or less confidential information. But I told the story a while back about somebody who was talking to a group of working class salt of the earth gentlemen, the last kind of dudes that you would ever think that this would be a thing for. I'm not talking about like some Berkeley androgynous poetry majors talking about like working class work with their hands guys, blue collar guys, talking about how much they enjoyed the companionship of the female chatbots when they came home from, you know, a long day in the field at night and how they, you know, they listen to them and understand them and they look forward to it all day long and that sort of thing. And I thought, wow, I mean, if that crowd can fall under the sway of this in its current form, mankind is doomed. Now I've never tried it, but I almost don't want to because I have some concern. But with like a lot of other things that I've dismissed and joked about and find it more appealing than I'd like it to be, you know, I.

[Tim Sandifer]

Would, I would hope that your oogie factor would overcome that temptation. But your illustration of the sort of fellows who write it is troubling.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah. Although I'm, luckily I'm not. I don't feel trapped in a lonely world like a lot of people do. And if you feel like it's, you know, you're lonely and it's really difficult out there to meet people and everything like that, then this answer comes along. It must feel good to you. So a slightly different version of this and also a real life story mom was telling me the other day. And it's, it's, it's a troubling story from the beginning as the, the daughter involved is 12, but let's go with 13 because it's, they're close enough to 13, but still are actually 12.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Had.

[Joe Getty]

Ended up in a situation by being at a friend's house or whatever. This 17 year old boy was hitting on this young girl in a way that they shouldn't if they weren't a creep, but they were and apparently they are a very handsome, smooth talking dude, so really got the attention of this quite young girl. Wow. Anyway, mom gets contacted by the school saying, hey, we are taking a look at your kids search history and computer use because maybe you know this, maybe you don't. I mean, I've got, I've had kids in public school. They, they allow you to use the Chromebook or you buy your own Chromebook, but you have to be on the school system and they have the right to check and see what stuff you're doing on that computer, which I'm fine with. But they, they have variety of protection programs that, you know, if your eighth grade boy is looking at porn on the Chromebook, the school will contact you and say, hey, your kid's using the Chromebook for porn. And then, you know, you talk to them or step in or do whatever. And then there, if you continue doing it, there's penalties down the road.

[Tim Sandifer]

But not in many schools. If you say I'm, I want to be transgender, then they won't tell your parents.

[Joe Getty]

Excellent point. Wow, that is really good. Caught your 13 year old looking at naked women. Oh no, what a shock. Your 13 year old wants to become a woman. Keep it on the down low. None of mom and dad's business. Wow, good point. But so anyway, this mom got contacted by the school. Hey, your, your 12 year old daughter's computer was showing them on this site talking to a, an advice chatbot, sex chat bot. I guess it's particularly in the area of sex advice the 12 year old and mom, I don't remember from reading the back and forth or asking the kid now, but either way found out the kid was regularly going on this sex chat bottom. To get advice on how to please a 17 year old boy and really like got addicted, that'd be too much, but like really kind of obsessed with, you know, as soon as you get home from school, checking in with the chat bot and see what the latest advice is on how to please a 17 year old boy. And it just became a like hard to break cycle. Wow. Wow. Now if there had been, I can't imagine it when I was like 13, 14 years old, you know, when you're a young man starting to understand things your body is capable of doing or certain urges that can be enjoyed in a certain way, and there had been some sort of chat bot I could talk to that would tell me sexy stories or do whatever, oh my God, I would have never been, I don't know how you got me out of my room, but you know, so you can have the sex talk with your kids. They're having the sex talk with Some chatbot.

[Tim Sandifer]

What's really interesting is that so far, as far as I can observe, the premature sexualization of children, which the left is so enthusiastic about. His mostly resulted in. In people not pairing off, not actually having sex, not having relationships.

[Joe Getty]

An interesting coexistence of those two things.

[Tim Sandifer]

Although it makes intuitive sense that there would be some, maybe most, who having their normal development blocked in this way. If you can picture that as a metaphor. A lot of people go to the left toward. This is all sick and weird and I can't handle it, mind. And some people will go to the right. Being hypersexualized, addicted to pornography, whatever.

[Joe Getty]

There seems to be that, yeah, the, the.

[Tim Sandifer]

The step by step natural progression of the way you become aware of the world and adulthood. Everything from sex to, to taxes and responsibility and paying bills and, and real deep emotional relationships with another adult. That's an inch by inch process for the entire history of mankind. Except now, now. And I can't resist another shot at the left. Forgive me. Now you go to your woke school where you're immediately sexualized and you're surrounded by porn or whatever. And that step by step is like vaulting a mile at a time in a way that their poor young minds and hearts can't handle. It's incredibly troubling to me.

[Joe Getty]

I know. I can't imagine learning all the things that I learned, like you said, little by little, inch by inch, over a period of years. Just got dumped on me, you know, like a bucket on my head. A lot of it. Really bad ideas and bad advice and all kinds of things. Yeah, I mean, so you're gonna have the sex talk with your teenage daughter to make sure she. Well, she. Fine. She's got, you know, you're not the only role model for them. They've got another role model. It's the AI bot that they get to talk to. And apparently it's a thing like they. This person became aware of it from friends because that's what the friends are doing too.

[Tim Sandifer]

And God knows what sort of, you know, the whole garbage in, garbage out why is. Why are AI systems woke? Well, because the people programming them are and blah, blah, blah. You got that issue as well. You know, I keep. Every time we talk about this sort of thing, I have the same urge toward, you know, some sort of fundamentalist subcultural civilization or community or, you know, build your own compound or something. And you know, people, I'd say, yeah, we're fundamentalists and they say like religious fundamentalists. No, Islamic fundamentalists.

[Joe Getty]

No, no, no, no. We're just funding.

[Tim Sandifer]

We just concentrate on the fundamentals of life. You know, worship whatever you want. And no, I'm not a cult leader, and no, I'm not sexing up the young women, which just tends to be an inevitable thing in these little offshoot communities. But yeah, we just. There's a lot of the modern world that sucks. Oh, do you like, not do medicines and stuff? No, no, no, no. We do medicines and vaccinations, you know, and all this. Yeah, we, you know, we're not lunatics. We've just, we've learned to separate the wheat from the chaff of the modern world because. And this is, this is so obvious and so fundamental it almost seems stupid to say. But we all, as human beings tend to be swept up, and we talked about this a couple of days ago in fascinating fashion. We all tend to be swept up by the culture and assume everything that is offered to us is something we ought to take in. And that's not true. There is some wheat, but there's some not only chaff, but poison, like thumbtacks in the wheat of the modern world.

[Joe Getty]

This is a great idea, man. If I had billions fight Elon's billions, I would start towns like this or communities or I don't know how you don't have it unfold, but you know, you'd be like the Amish, except for, no, we're not going to ride buggies down the road to work. It's ridiculous. But we're not going to have the damned Internet. We're not going to have smartphones. We're not going to have all this stupid stuff. We're going to go back to like, way back to 2006. Okay, maybe, I don't know, on the Internet. I have to think about that. But definitely not smartphones, definitely not AI, Definitely none of that stuff. And I think a lot of people gravitate toward that.

[Tim Sandifer]

We're going to have backyard barbecues and the kids are going to go off to the side and they're going to talk and giggle and laugh and wonder what they'll say. And they're saying, then they'll invent a game with a ball and a stick.

[Joe Getty]

And is there any way to program morality into any of this chatbot stuff? I mean, you couldn't force it, but is there any way to have a chatbot says, wait a second, how old are you? I'm 12. Well, you shouldn't be having sex at all. And certainly not being in a relationship with a 17 year old. There's either Something wrong with them or they're just wanting to use you for sex, but this is a bad idea. Is there any way a chatbot would ever say that?

[Tim Sandifer]

Well, the issue is since groups, since we don't really have shared a shared sense of morality anymore because we become a much more diverse country. The, the, it's impossible to quote, unquote, infuse morality into it because nobody can agree on what morality is or should be. Therefore, all things digital are utterly amoral. They are without morals. Does that trouble anybody sending your child into a completely amoral environment?

[Joe Getty]

In this particular story. So Chromebook got taken away. Mom late at night, at one point realizes computer's missing. Oh, goes it's in the daughter's bedroom. Couldn't stay away from the sex advice chatbot to please a 17 year old now has to sleep with the computer. All computer devices in the bedroom to make sure they. I mean, oh my God. This is not something our parents had to deal with. No.

[Tim Sandifer]

I realized something I had to deal with. And my kids are now mid-20s to early 30s.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah. I realized the hubris that comes with saying this is a harder time to be a parent. This is a harder time to be a parent than it was for previous generations. It's horrible.

[Tim Sandifer]

Yes. As somebody raised the just one more generation earlier. You're right. You're 100.

[Joe Getty]

God, it's so crazy. Anyway, if you know anything about this or have had any experiences, our text line 415295KFTC.

[Unnamed Advertiser]

Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty. The Armstrong and Getty Show.

[Unnamed Contributor]

The Armstrong and Getty Show.

[Joe Getty]

Now, I haven't heard this. Gavin Newsom and Bill Maher discussing some California policies. We'll discuss.

[Tim Sandifer]

I see today the Trump administration, they talked about the fact that California, California.

[Joe Getty]

Had a rule that schools cannot be required to notify parents if their kids in school have changed their gender, their pronouns. That's the kind of thing, even though it doesn't affect a lot of people, that makes a lot of people go, well, you know what?

[Tim Sandifer]

That's the party without common sense. Now, if that's your state, how are you? Are you.

[Unnamed Contributor]

I just, I just disagree with that. I mean, the law was you would.

[Joe Getty]

Be fired, a teacher would be fired if a teacher did not report or.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Snitch on a kid talking about the, their gender identity.

[Joe Getty]

I just think that was wrong. I think teachers should teach.

[Unnamed Contributor]

I don't think they should be required to turn in kids and by the way, turn in.

[Joe Getty]

We're talking about their parents. How can you snitch I don't. The idea of a snitch and a parent, to me, doesn't compare.

[Unnamed Contributor]

I just.

[Joe Getty]

I don't. But what is.

[Unnamed Contributor]

What is the job of a teacher? It's to teach.

[Joe Getty]

If Johnny's talking about some identity issue.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Or some issue about liking someone of.

[Joe Getty]

The same sex, is the teacher's job. Well, the one thing that's clear from that, he is not confidently coming out and saying it's ridiculous that teachers would not be allowed to tell parents about the. And he didn't say that. He had the opportunity right off the bat to say that, and he didn't. So there's no chance he's going to be President of the United States. You cannot be president in the United States unless you're willing to take a position on this. It's been proven over and over. The candidates who try to, like, fudge these things and be with thinking, they're going to have it both ways. Never works. Never works. Didn't work for Kamala, ain't gonna work for Gavin. I can't believe he doesn't have the balls to come out and say, even in California, what, this has gotta be an 80, 20 issue, maybe to 90 10. I can't believe he didn't have the balls to say that out loud.

[Tim Sandifer]

And to claim that Johnny, who now wants to be called Jenny, that that would be snitching on the kid and akin to maybe the kid hints that maybe he likes boys. That's just. That is so false. It's so funny. And also, the job of a teacher is to teach. To teach about the genderbred person and radical gender theory. Gavin, you require them to teach that stuff.

[Joe Getty]

No. With all the crap in California that they haven't teached, it's not reading, writing, and arithmetic, that ain't going to fly. And he's trying to conflate what Desantis is doing in Florida, where they have the law that you'll be fired if you don't tell the parents. And he's trying to act like that's what he's fighting against. No, no, no, no, no. You went completely the other direction, where the teacher is not allowed to tell the parent. That's nuts.

[Tim Sandifer]

Yeah.

[Joe Getty]

And ever, most people think it's nuts, as Bill Maher points out, most people think that's nuts. I thought Gavin was smarter than that.

[Tim Sandifer]

Here's the deal. What's really wrecking him and people like him, thank God, is more and more people are understanding the relationship between the neo Marxists, the radical, you know, gender theory, crowd, the queer theory crowd, all these lunatics, the neo Marxists and their connection to, for instance, the teachers union, which is down with all this stuff. Gavin doesn't dare defy the teachers union, which is down with all this stuff. So he went as far as he's going to go with his. Yeah, there's a injustice there. We need to strike a balance with the girls. And so it's not vice versa.

[Joe Getty]

So it's not the voters that he has in the back of his mind when he's answering those questions, it's the teachers union that, that makes sense.

[Tim Sandifer]

The teachers unions and the radical activist class of which he, I think is, to the extent that he has any beliefs whatsoever, they seem to be quite progressive.

[Joe Getty]

I think he believes he wants to be president.

[Tim Sandifer]

Yeah, I'd like to hear more of that exchange.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, no kidding.

[Tim Sandifer]

Because Mar cannot be. I ought to be able to say this. He cannot be. Bull est. I'll just say that. Why are you so oily?

[Joe Getty]

Why do you take so much joy in cursing?

[Tim Sandifer]

I don't know. I don't know. It's just, it's. It's a wonderful thing.

[Joe Getty]

It's a wonderful thing.

[Tim Sandifer]

Well, you know, I consider bola? S to be a perfect word, universally understood in its meaning. It is brief, it has a ring to it, it has a rhythm to it. It's perfect work.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah. And unfortunately, the substitutes do not carry the same weight.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Armstrong and getty.

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[Joe Getty]

So good.

[Tim Sandifer]

Your bill ladies.

[Joe Getty]

I got it. No, I got it.

[Jack Armstrong]

Seriously, I insist. I insisted first. Don't be silly.

[Joe Getty]

You don't be silly.

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[Joe Getty]

Okay.

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Rock, paper scissors for it.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Rock, paper scissors.

[Joe Getty]

Shoot.

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[Unnamed Contributor]

The Armstrong and Getty Show.

[Joe Getty]

I fall down easy but I get up slow I really, really hope that the bruises don't show Cut myself and I taste My blood drag my name right through. The president decides to do something with an executive order or whatever often that they promised on the campaign trail. Their voters get all excited, Yay, they did it day one, like they promised. And then, then I get an alert on my phone. Some judge somewhere I've never heard of has said, no, you can't do that. And then it stops. And everybody's like. Groans like, oh, they can do that. And it keeps happening over and over again. And do we want that system to continue that way or not? Is part of what the Supreme Court was arguing about yesterday. And as one of the justices said, there are 600 some federal judges, and while I do not question their motives, sometimes there are.

[Tim Sandifer]

They are wrong.

[Joe Getty]

So do we want them to be able to hold up the whole country?

[Tim Sandifer]

Let us discuss the very interesting and multifaceted oral arguments yesterday before the Supreme Court with Tim Sandifer, vice President for Legal affairs at the Goldwater Institute. Among other auspicious titles, Author of eight books, including most recently Freedom's How Isabel Patterson, Rose Wilder, and Ayn Rand Found Liberty in Age of Darkness. I've recommended it many times. It's terrific. Tim, how are you, sir?

[Unnamed Contributor]

Just great. Thanks for having me back, guys.

[Joe Getty]

Published poet. Gotta throw that in there.

[Tim Sandifer]

True. Yes. A polymath, as they say. Anyway, Tim, so ostensibly, everybody's talking about that we were gonna discuss birthright citizenship in front of the Supreme Court, and that did come up. But would you agree that the more significant discussion was about nationwide injunctions by individual federal judges?

[Unnamed Contributor]

Oh, yes, absolutely. That was the focus of the argument, and it was a very interesting argument, but I don't think that it's a hard question. I think the answer is, obviously, nationwide injunctions are perfectly fine. They're the ordinary way of doing business in the courts, and people who complain about them either don't understand the system or are trying to get away with something illegal.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, I don't. I don't always like that it happened, but I can't see what the alternative would be, as somebody pointed out. So you're going to let. I guess it was you that pointed it out yesterday in Twitter. The idea that. So every time a president does something, it's got to work its way all the way through the courts up to the Supreme Court. And then a decision by the Supreme Court before the Supreme Court might say, sometimes nine. Nothing. You can't do that.

[Tim Sandifer]

Oh, wait a minute.

[Unnamed Contributor]

And during that whole period of time, the government is still doing the illegal thing, Right? Right.

[Tim Sandifer]

Well, so clearly it's 2 to 1 for a judicial takeover of the government. But I will stand up for liberty. Is there no middle ground? It's got to be three judge panel and not a single yahoo in rural Tennessee.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Yeah, I think having a single yahoo in rural Tennessee is perfectly fine because that's what the appellate process is for. That's why you appeal cases. And by the way, that's why you should avoid appointing yahoos to the federal bench. You might mention that too. But the argument against nationwide injunctions always seems to boil down to, well, this is a democracy and the majority should always get what it wants. And the answer to that is no. What happened to all of my friends who used to say, this is a republic, not a democracy? The whole point of our system is that the majority has to act lawfully. And if it acts unlawfully, I can go in front of a judge and get that, get an order from that judge prohibiting the government from violating my rights. And the idea that this, that we should do this piecemeal, that only a judge down here, that his order only applies there, meanwhile the government can do illegal things to everybody else in the country until the case reaches the US Supreme Court, makes no sense at all.

[Tim Sandifer]

The underlying theme here being, folks, that what we really need to fear is the power of the government in this country. That's kind of the idea of forming it. So there's no question that these nationwide injunctions were relatively or practically completely unknown for 150 years. Then there were a handful of them, and the number of them is now skyrocketing every day.

[Joe Getty]

It seems like on my phone I see a judge jumped in somewhere.

[Unnamed Contributor]

I actually don't think that that's true. I think that what happened was we just started calling them by a different name. There were injunctions against unconstitutional government action since before there was a Constitution. One of the points that was brought up during the arguments was British judges used to do this before the American Revolution. And that was considered perfectly legitimate. It's just that nowadays we call them nationwide injunctions, or we have some judges who write sloppily and don't explain what they're actually saying or something. Okay, that's a problem, I suppose. But the idea that you should limit the injunction power of federal courts is what that is, is that's open door to the majority violating individual rights on a scale that, I mean, they already do it. But you can imagine what it would be if we took away one of the most important protections, individual rights in this country, which is getting an injunction from our federal court. To protect your freedom. That's insane.

[Tim Sandifer]

So I didn't want to get to.

[Joe Getty]

This part too fast because you're a lawyer and this part can't be fixed with the law. It seems to me that we've got a cultural problem in that presidents are way more likely than they used to be to want to challenge the Supreme Court either to, like, legitimately, they don't think the law is correct or they don't care if they're wrong. They just want to get the political credit for trying. And perhaps I don't know this, but it seems like a likely response. The 600 some federal judges out there, there's a lot more of them who are willing to let their politics get ahead of their judge reasoning and jump in and stop somebody they hate.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Yes, you're absolutely right about that. And especially the thing about the President and Congress being willing to do things that they know are unconstitutional because they know that the judges are going to strike it down and they can blame the judges and say, oh, those evil activist judges, or they can get away with their unconstitutional things. So it's win, win if you want to do something unconstitutional. And honestly, every president's done this to some degree. Obviously, Franklin Roosevelt did this a lot. But the one that always sticks in my memory is George W. Bush when he signed the McCain Feingold campaign finance law and said when he signed it that he thought it was unconstitutional but that he would leave it to the courts to deal with. Well, I'm sorry, but if you're the president, you take an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. And if you ignore that oath and sign something that you know is unconstitutional just because you think the courts will clean up your mess for you, I think that's disgraceful.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, well, a lot of, a lot of the pieces I've read that have been following the growth of this use that as kind of like the patient zero, because he said it out loud and then other presidents thought, hey, I can do that. I just won't say it out loud. And Obama did it and Biden did it and Trump did it in whichever order, and then Trump again and it's, how do we fix this?

[Unnamed Contributor]

Well, there's a long answer and a short answer. The short answer is elect good presidents. The long answer is that we have to restore respect for the Constitution in this country. I think it's the long term damage that's been done to Americans understanding and appreciation of the Constitution is horrifying. We have prominent law professors. There was a law professor at Georgetown Law School a few years ago published an article in the Washington Post saying the Constitution is obsolete. I don't respect it at all. Well, you're a teacher of constitutional law, for crying out loud. And if we don't respect the Constitution, we don't love it. It cannot protect us. The Constitution is just a promise. And if we don't honor that promise, then it's not worth the paper it's written on.

[Tim Sandifer]

We should have written law specifically putting him in jail, in my opinion. Tim Sandifer is on the line from the Goldwater Institute. Little constitutional humor for exactly.

[Joe Getty]

Designed for punish one man. That's a good idea.

[Tim Sandifer]

Yeah, let's do it. So, you know, blah, blah, blah, disclaimer about. It's difficult to read the tea leaves of the oral arguments, blah, blah, blah. Did it strike you that the justices, the sane ones that we like, were leaning in any particular direction as to the nationwide injunctions, judges, etc. That, that we've been discussing?

[Unnamed Contributor]

Some of the judges have made clear for a long time that they're against these, what they call nationwide injunctions. Justice Thomas, in particular, some of the others are a little harder to read. Justice Barrett, for example, and Justice Roberts, who have become really the swing judges on this issue, I thought the most interesting judge, if you want, if anybody wants to go and listen to the argument online. I thought Justice Jackson was the one who was the most interesting. She clearly understands how this area of the law works, and she rightly says there's no there there. Nationwide injunctions are perfectly legitimate, they always have been, and there's no problem. So she'd be the one that I find most interesting. But how to predict. I think you're gonna get. I think Justice Roberts and Justice Barrett are gonna side with the liberals and say we don't have a problem per se with nationwide injunctions, but maybe some of them aren't very good, but as a blanket matter, they're okay. And then they're going to want to hear the underlying case about birthright citizenship, which obviously is a huge deal.

[Joe Getty]

That sounds about right to me.

[Tim Sandifer]

Is it even worth getting into what happened on that topic yesterday, or do you think it's.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Well, they really just talked about whether or not they have a legitimate case in the first place, and they haven't really briefed it or argued it yet. But that's important because in order to get an injunction, you kind of have to first show that you have even an arguable point to make. And that was what they were arguing about. And I will say, I know this is talk radio and we're all supposed to think that we clearly have the right answer on everything. I think the birthright citizenship question is a very hard question. I don't think it's an easy question on either side.

[Joe Getty]

Let's talk about that when we come back from the break. I want to hear, I want to hear the arguments on both sides of that. That's interesting. And clearly you've probably seen the breakdown of who speaks the most words. The chicks talk too much. Is that a given?

[Unnamed Contributor]

Well, Justice Sotomayor does love cutting off lawyers and not letting them answer her questions.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, the chicks talk too much.

[Tim Sandifer]

I think that's in the new gal talks more than anybody. That shouldn't happen in any organization.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty the Armstrong.

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And Getty show.

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[Joe Getty]

Wasn't that delicious? So good.

[Tim Sandifer]

Your bill, ladies.

[Joe Getty]

I got it. No, I got it.

[Jack Armstrong]

Seriously, I insist. I insisted first. Don't be silly.

[Joe Getty]

You know me, silly.

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[Joe Getty]

Okay.

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[Unnamed Contributor]

Rock, paper, scissors.

[Tim Sandifer]

Shoot.

[Joe Getty]

No.

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[Jack Armstrong]

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Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty the Armstrong and Getty show.

[Tim Sandifer]

Discussing the oral arguments before the Supreme Court yesterday with Tim Sandifer, Vice President for Legal affairs at the Goldwater Institute. It was advertised as a birthright citizenship. Hearing it or discussion? It really was much more a discussion of individual federal judges and nationwide injunctions and that sort of thing. But to the question of the 14th amendment, Tim, you said before the break that that it's not an easy call. I'm glad to hear you agree. I've thought the same thing. What should we know about the 14th amendment to even come to a semi intelligent opinion on this?

[Unnamed Contributor]

Well, the first sentence of the 14th amendment says all persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are US Citizens. And all of this case, all of these arguments turn on that phrase subject to the jurisdiction thereof. What does that phrase mean? It's really tough because the word jurisdiction is one of those words that can mean all sorts of different things. It basically means power, but there's all sorts of different kinds of power. And so that's what the argument turns on. Does it? Some people think that it means you have to follow the law. If you're born here and you have to follow the law, then you're subject to the jurisdiction thereof and then that means you're a citizen. But that doesn't really make a lot of sense because even Foreign tourists who come here for a vacation have to follow the law. I mean, they have to stop at red lights and they can't steal things. So that can't be what that means. Right. Instead, the other side argues jurisdiction thereof means some kind of loyalty or allegiance, that there's citizenship jurisdiction as opposed to follow the law jurisdiction. And that difference, you can see that difference, for example, in this. If you're a foreign spy and you sneak into the country and you spy for some foreign country and you get arrested, you can be prosecuted for espionage, but you cannot be prosecuted for treason. Why? Because you're not a US Citizen and you don't owe loyalty to the US So you cannot commit treason against the US and so there's two different kinds of jurisdiction, is the argument. And so those who are against birthright citizenship, say subject of the jurisdiction thereof, means that your parents owed loyalty to the United States as opposed to some foreign country. And that would mean that illegal aliens, if they have a child here, that child is not a citizen in the United States. Now that there's a problem with that. There's a couple problems with that. One of the problems with that argument is that nobody has ever said that that's what it means. In the 150 years since this has been in the Constitution, everybody has acted like, if you're born here, you're a citizen all of that time. And so suddenly discovering that, well, it turns out that we've been misreading the Constitution for 150 years would be a huge, enormously radical transformation in how our system works. That would cause tremendous disruption nationwide. And that would be a. But all of this. The real problem here in answering this question is that when the amendment was adopted, there were no such things as illegal aliens because there were no laws against immigration. And that means that if you're an originalist and you think the Constitution should be understood the way it was originally intended, the framers didn't ever think about this because it wasn't against the law back then. So we don't know what they would have thought about this question.

[Joe Getty]

Right? Right.

[Tim Sandifer]

Well, at the point that this enormously radical, disruptive precedent is overturned, that's when you tag me in and Tim and I come in and explain to the good folks that, look, the nature of global transportation, the movement of people or peoples from one place to another, has changed so vastly.

[Joe Getty]

Joe's a living Constitution guy. You can hear it coming up. What?

[Tim Sandifer]

No. Don't you dare know that the very nature of comings and goings from countries has been so radically transformed. A Chinese national with not the slightest notion of making life in the United States can, can depart China, arrive here, give birth, go back to China, all in the span of 72 hours. I'm inducing labor in this case, probably, or getting very lucky and, and that child had citizenship. That's not eventuality unimaginable back in the day, as the kids say.

[Unnamed Contributor]

I think that that's sort of true. But on the other hand, the Chinese question came up back then because there were so many Chinese in California in the 1860s. And senators were asked, well, this going to make the children of the Chinese immigrants who back then did not intend to stay in the United States, they intended to go back to China. The senators were asked, does this make their kids US Citizens? And the senator from California said yes. And then he was immediately thrown out of office. So what does that mean? And nobody knows what that means.

[Tim Sandifer]

A single case from 1898 or is there more precedent? Really?

[Unnamed Contributor]

There really isn't. There's really just a handful of precedents and no Supreme Court case has ever said that birthright citizenship is in the, is in the Constitution. There have been some that have kind of mentioned it or kind of assumed it, but none has said so outright.

[Joe Getty]

I am surprised. The polling shows that only about a third of Americans want to do away with the way we do it now. I'm surprised by that. I do want to get to this. This is a journalistic question, but I think it has an effect on people's respect for the law. It has come up recently. It has become a pattern that anytime the media mentions a judge, they mentioned what president appointed them. Do you think that's a good idea or not? They didn't just barely got a minute.

[Unnamed Contributor]

I think, I think it's fine. I think people should know where these, for instance. I think it would help. A lot of judges, you know, a lot of Republican appointed judges have been ruling against the Trump administration. And I think it would be helpful for people to know that these questions are not things where it's all partisan. The law is not just partisan politics. It's something much more profound and much more important than that.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, well, I agree, but it implies that, that judges, I don't know. I didn't used to think, I didn't used to think about it ever. If a judge ruled, I just thought, well, that's interesting. Now it's all. Who appointed him? Oh, of course he said that.

[Unnamed Contributor]

That is true. That is a risk. But I, I think we should err on the side of informing people as opposed to keeping people in the dark. So I. That's always true.

[Tim Sandifer]

Tim Sander for the Goldwater Institute on the line. Tim, final question. I've called for a monarchy. You in favor of it? Yes or no?

[Joe Getty]

No.

[Unnamed Contributor]

I'm against the monarchy. I'm for the Constitution.

[Joe Getty]

Joe, one more question. As a published poet, I was thinking about this yesterday. He won the Nobel Prize. Bob Dylan. Good poet or not?

[Unnamed Contributor]

Lousy poet. No. Read Robert Hayden or Richard Wilbur instead.

[Tim Sandifer]

How about Ringo Star, Octopus's Garden? That was creative, Tim. It's always great and enlightening. Thanks a million for the time. Let's talk again soon.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Thanks, guys.

[Tim Sandifer]

All right.

[Joe Getty]

I was actually thinking about this. Listening to Dylan lyrics. Why do they stick in everybody's head so much? Why do people keep going back to them if it's just gobbledygook like a lot of real poets claim?

[Unnamed Contributor]

It can't be.

[Joe Getty]

It wouldn't lodge. It wouldn't. It wouldn't make the market made. Would it?

[Unnamed Advertiser]

Well.

[Tim Sandifer]

Right. He was famously moody about his career and his music in his life's philosophy. I think some of his stuff is absolutely brilliant and I think some of it's gobbledygood.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Huh.

[Joe Getty]

Maybe. Maybe more on that another day. Or maybe not. We got plenty stuff to tell you. I hope you can stick around if you missed a segment. I thought that Tim thing was really, really good. And you want to listen to it again. Get the podcast. Armstrong and Yeti on Demand.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Armstrong and Getty. Why should you listen to Armstrong and Getty on demand?

[Joe Getty]

We're not boring.

[Tim Sandifer]

A lot of news is boring and tedious and depressing and makes you angry. You don't want to live your life like that.

[Joe Getty]

Hey, I'm Jack Armstrong. He's Joe Getty.

[Tim Sandifer]

We're Armstrong and Getty.

[Joe Getty]

We try to bring you the truth.

[Tim Sandifer]

And help you figure out this crazy modern world.

[Joe Getty]

How about something about a comedic tone?

[Tim Sandifer]

We have a winner.

[Joe Getty]

Yes, listen to Armstrong and Yeti on.

[Unnamed Contributor]

Demand on the iHeartRadio app.

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[Jack Armstrong]

For some of us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves, loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent where Money means more Connect with.

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[Joe Getty]

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[Jack Armstrong]

This is an iHeart podcast.