The A&G Replay Wednesday Hour Three

Summary

Armstrong & Getty On Demand — A&G Replay Wednesday Hour Three

Date: August 27, 2025
Podcast: Armstrong & Getty On Demand (iHeartPodcasts)
Hosts: Jack Armstrong & Joe Getty

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Episode Overview

This hour of the Armstrong & Getty Replay centers on two lively, in-depth discussions: first, the cultural overanalysis of iconic movies—specifically, the 50th anniversary of Jaws and how media reinterpretation can border on parody; and second, a thoughtful debate about the atomic bombings of Japan as the 80th anniversary approaches, diving into both historical context and ongoing controversy. The hosts' dynamic banter, humor, and genuine curiosity shine as they reflect on intellectual trends, social psychology, history, and personal interactions.

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Main Discussion Segments

1. The Over-Intellectualization of "Jaws" (04:18–14:34)

• Anniversary Reflection:
  Jack and Joe note the 50th anniversary of Jaws and how its cultural impact is being re-examined by contemporary media, particularly a recent Atlantic article arguing the movie anticipated political class struggles in America.

• Mocking the Trend:
  The pair lampoon the tendency of some writers to force deep, political meanings onto straightforward entertainment, comparing it to elaborate academic “grievance studies” hoaxes.

  • “I could switch the Mach 1 with the Atlantic piece and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.” – Jack (04:52)

• Reading Parodies:
  Jack reads excerpts from Noah Rothman’s satirical response and actual passages from the Atlantic’s analysis, highlighting the overly elaborate interpretations, such as Quint representing "the suppressed male ID" and the shark symbolizing "the black and brown diaspora of the Bundung revolution."

  • “The character Quint represents the suppressed male ID which struggles against structural and meta social taboos…” – Jack, quoting parody (06:17)
  • “The drive to open the beaches by the 4th of July is a classic expression of American jingoism…” – Jack, parody (06:47)

• Critique of Intellectual Vanity:
  Joe explores the psychology behind why people accept such interpretations, attributing it to "intellectual vanity," especially in left-leaning circles.

  • “There are some ideas so ridiculous only an intellectual would believe them.” – Joe, paraphrasing Thomas Sowell (11:15)

• Mockery of Academia:
  Jack and Joe reminisce about pseudo-intellectual trends in college, such as seeing subliminal messages in advertising and forcing meaning into innocuous things.

  • “This is like staring at clouds and you can think they are anything—there's no subliminal anything going on here.” – Jack (13:50)

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2. Resting "Bitch Face" and Social Perception (15:03–19:56)

• Jack's Self-Experiment:
  Jack asks colleagues if he seems unapproachable due to his facial expression ("RBF") and shares tips he's tried to counteract it, such as practicing a neutral or slight smile.

  • “Do I come off as unapproachable when really I'm just... this is just my normal face?” – Jack (15:15)
  • Colleagues confirm (humorously) that he gives off that vibe.

• Practical Tips Discussed:

  • Practicing neutral expressions in the mirror.
  • Slightly lifting the corners of the mouth.
  • Relaxing one’s brows; maintaining open posture and eye contact.
  • Using a subtle "soft smile" in social interactions.

• Results from Experimenting:
  Jack notes that he got noticeably more positive responses when using a slight smile during daily interactions.

  • “I was going around with the kind of neutral, slightly upturned expression and getting a noticeably better result out of people…” – Jack (18:44)

• Humorous Anecdotes on Nonverbal Cues:
  Joe describes someone learning to look attentive even when bored, while Jack likens facial habits to muscle memory.

  • “In my mind, it feels like I'm grinning like the Joker from Batman. But I look in the mirror and it's just completely neutral.” – Jack (19:31)

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3. The Legacy of World War II and the Use of Atomic Bombs (25:29–40:10, 44:42–47:27)

• Eighty Years Since Hiroshima/Nagasaki:
  Jack transitions to a history segment, connecting the current U.S. military nuclear capacity with the sobering reflection on the 80-year anniversary of America dropping atomic bombs on Japan.

• Persistent Warfare:
  Both hosts remark that the end of WWII was not truly the end of global conflict.

  • “We've now had more people die in wars since World War II than happened during World War II.” – Jack (26:09)

• Debunking Historical Myths:
  Referencing historians like Victor David Hanson and Richard B. Frank, they highlight that the Pacific and European theaters of WWII were largely separate, and the Japanese regime was as ruthless as the Nazis or even more so.

  • Japan’s invasion of China in 1937 killed 8 million before Pearl Harbor.

• The Decision to Drop the Bomb:

  • Military Reality:
    The Japanese military’s extreme resistance and the cultural context made surrender almost unthinkable. Invasion would have been catastrophically costly.
    • “Japan had never surrendered… No Japanese unit, not one, had surrendered in any battle.” – Jack (32:35)
  • Soviet Entry Myth:
    They dismantle the argument that Japan surrendered only because of the Soviet Union’s entry into the war—calling it a popular but poorly documented narrative.
  • Ethical Dilemmas:
    The hosts juxtapose the appalling violence of Pacific trench warfare with the harrowing decision to use atomic weapons, emphasizing that alternatives like a ground invasion or blockade would have caused even higher civilian casualties.
    • “Around 200,000 people were killed by the bombs…twice as many Japanese as that died at the hands of the Russians in the very same weeks…” – Jack (35:00)

• Why the European Theater Overshadows the Pacific:
  Jack posits the European war is more covered in media because it was morally clearer, less brutal in warfare style, and easier for film crews to document.

  • “Things got so ugly against the Japanese, bit by bit, island by island, where both sides…just…freaking Lord of the Flies war.” – Jack (45:13)
  • Intense brutality—US and Japanese soldiers committing atrocities.

• Social & Academic Attitudes:
  The hosts reflect on how some, especially in progressive circles, focus more on American wrongs than on enemy atrocities, critiquing a tendency toward “self-hatred” and the social pressure to hold anti-patriotic views.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Intellectual Vanity:
  “Appeal to the intellectual vanity of a certain crowd...they will believe freaking anything, no matter how laughable it is.” – Joe Getty (08:57)

• On the "Jaws" Parody:
  “Martin Brody...the weak and crumbling edifice of the post war consensus. Exhausted and plagued by indecision, he serves as our link to the fraying social order of the past. His triumph is pyric…” – Jack (08:10)

• On Personal Social Perception:
  “I have sat in meetings thinking, oh my God, you’re radiating hate visibly.” – Joe Getty, to Jack (15:27)

• On Results of Changing Expression:
  “I was going around with the kind of neutral, slightly upturned expression and getting a noticeably better result out of people…” – Jack (18:43)

• On the Pacific War’s Brutality:
  “Our marines would come across dead US soldiers who had their genitals cut off and shoved in their mouth sometimes while they were alive by the Japanese.” – Jack (45:22)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:18–14:34 — Media over-analyzing “Jaws” & intellectual trends
• 15:03–19:56 — Resting bitch face, social cues, and practical life hacks
• 25:29–40:10 — WWII, nuclear weapons, debates about the atomic bomb, history myths
• 44:42–47:27 — Pacific War brutality, why Europe gets more attention in media

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Tone & Style

• Witty, sarcastic, accessible: Satirical takedowns and friendly banter dominate.
• Candid, thought-provoking: Willingness to challenge popular academic and social narratives without sugarcoating.
• Historically detail-oriented: Referencing books, historians, and statistics informally but accurately.
• Self-reflective and practical: Personal experiments on social cues and psychological observations.

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Summary Takeaways

• Armstrong & Getty use current anniversaries (Jaws and Hiroshima/Nagasaki) to launch into critiques of intellectual trends, American self-perception, and historical narratives.
• They argue against projecting excessive political meaning onto art, lampooning “intellectual vanity.”
• The hosts offer relatable, even comical, advice on how strangers perceive us based on our facial expressions.
• The multipart discussion on WWII emphasizes complexity, myth-busting, and the lasting legacy of decisions like atomic bombing.
• Their discussions blend humor, skepticism, and seriousness in exploring both personal and national history.

Transcript

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[Jack Armstrong]

Ah come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

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[Announcer]

Center, Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty Armstrong and Getty.

[Jack Armstrong]

And now he.

[Joe Getty]

Armstrong and Getty.

[Jack Armstrong]

Not live from Studio C. Armstrong and Getty. We're off. We're taking a break. Come on.

[Joe Getty]

Enjoy this carefully curated Armstrong and Getty replay. And as long as we're off, perhaps you'd like to catch up on podcasts. Subscribe to Armstrong and Getty on Demand or One More thing. We think you'll enjoy it.

[Jack Armstrong]

Third.

[Joe Getty]

You'Re gonna need a bigger boat.

[Jack Armstrong]

Terrifying. The movie jaws came out 50 years ago this summer, horrifying swimmers all around the world and hoping to God that as you bobbed around in the ocean, you did not hear a cello. All right, bottom, bottom, bottom. So this is funny. This. This reminds me of our friend James Lindsay when he and his friends did the grievance papers. They put out these fake studies. They were incredibly over the top and ridiculous. But you couldn't tell them for the real thing from the real thing, because the real thing is over the top and ridiculous to that point. I'm going to do a Mach 1. I could switch the Mach 1 with the Atlantic piece and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. But the Atlantic has a piece out today. The film jaws came out 50 years ago this month. It portrays clash divisions differently from the novel that inspired it, in ways that anticipated a fight that has arguably, arguably defined American politics since 2016. What Jaws got wrong is the title.

[Joe Getty]

I thought it was about the fish biting people.

[Jack Armstrong]

It was. It was about a scary shark biting people. And, and it made people think, oh my God, that could happen to me in the ocean and the end and they catch the shark and it's a bloody finale and blah, blah, blah. There's nothing else to it but that. That's it. That's the whole thing. And it's hilarious that the Atlantic is turning it into some sort of class division and commentary on today's politics. Or it anticipated today's politics or whatever the crap. Anyway, Noah Rothman of the National Review decided to write in that style, mocking it. Basically. Charles C.W. cook, who Joe and I both really like, responded to Noah's piece by saying, I am in awe. Let me read a little bit from it. The character Quint, that's the guy we just heard from, the guy who owns the boat. It says, we're gonna need a bigger boat. He's the. The salty old dude. The character Quint represents the suppressed male ID which struggles against structural and meta social taboos. Prescribing the full expression of the archetypical masculine ethos, he is consumed by the sleek white metaphor of sexual equality against which he rages. Until the last minute, he bids farewell and adieu not to those Spanish ladies, but to the shackles of conventional gender roles. Exactly what I thought.

[Joe Getty]

That's what I took from it. Yeah.

[Jack Armstrong]

When I watched the shark movie. I mean, this is no more over the top than the Atlantic beast, really. The drive to open the beaches by the 4th of July is a classic expression of American jingoism and the blood spilled over his rote commitment to commercialism as an unremarkable feature of the rapacious capitalist enterprise. I find that sort of thing hilarious in that it is so not even this much different from the actual pieces. Some of these crazy people write about this stuff.

[Joe Getty]

Right, right. So easy to bamboozle them if you know the language to throw around.

[Jack Armstrong]

Noah Rothman actually said at the end of it, he said, this is really fun. No wonder so many people do it for a living. One more. Jaws, a portrayal of the monstrous, menacing and potentially violent other, foreign, indeed alien. It haunts its pursuers, dominates her conscience, and is subject to abuses and indignities until it metes out the righteous vengeance of accumulated transgenerational memory. The shark is the global south, the black and brown diaspora of the Bundung revolution, whatever the hell that means. And I'll just give you one more that I like. Martin Brody. Who is. Is that the. Is that the.

[Joe Getty]

Oh, Brody is the police chief.

[Jack Armstrong]

Right, okay. The weak and crumbling edifice of the post war consensus. Exhausted and plagued by indecision, he serves as our link to the fraying social order of the past. His triumph is pyric. I mean, it wasn't worth it. Perched atop a sinking ship, dealt a mortal blow by the rising vanguard of the subjugated and militant. His reprieve from the oppressor's fate will be short lived. The Atlantic piece.

[Joe Getty]

Great.

[Jack Armstrong]

The Atlantic beast that I read is so not much different than that.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah.

[Jack Armstrong]

And it's just who dudes are. It gets to the previous conversation of like Trump and this man, this New York mayor dude, whatever his name is, being in on the joke. Is the Atlantic in on the joke? Do they know it's a joke and they're writing it for their readers who think it's a joke? Or are they all taking it seriously, this crap? No.

[Joe Getty]

You know, it crystallized in my head that in the same way that if you want to like get the attention or sell practically anything to a 23 year old male, at least in the past, appeal to sexual desire and they'll just buy anything. And to women it's. You'll be beautiful and desirable and people will like you. They will freaking buy anything. Appeal to the intellectual vanity of a certain crowd. And it's, it's mostly on the left. If you, if you make them believe, believing this makes you better and smarter than everybody else, they will believe freaking anything, no matter how laughable it is. Lindsay. Lindsay and Pluckrose and Bogosian with their experiment. You mentioned the, the infamous grievance study papers. I mean, they are the best example ever of that. You could not make it so stupid that the intellectual vanity of these people wouldn't make them lap it up.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah. The Atlantic piece is actually about the different political orientations of the book versus the movie and how the movie got it wrong in portraying class distinctions as opposed to the book. Nobody watched the movie and came away from it thinking about class distinctions at all. It didn't get them wrong. It didn't get them at all. It's just, it's a. It's a. It's a horror film. It's just a short.

[Joe Getty]

Close the beaches or don't we. There's tremendous money at stake. That's just a really good subplot.

[Jack Armstrong]

Sure. Exactly. And whether it's a guy in a hockey mask coming on campers with an ax or a shark in the water, that's what it is. It's got nothing to do with class distinctions or any of this other crap. And it didn't foresee our politics 50 years later. What is wrong with you people?

[Joe Getty]

If you were to read more of the Atlantic one and then give us all an hour to go about our lives, I think it would be impossible for each of us to remember which one was the parody and which one Was realized is your point. Obviously, but yeah, what a bunch of mumbo jumbo. There are some ideas so ridiculous only an intellectual would believe them. Thomas Sowell.

[Jack Armstrong]

I'm paraphrasing and talking about the. Brody is a recent transplant from New York City. This is from the Atlantic. The actual piece, Brody the character.

[Joe Getty]

You should have just read it and asked us which one it was. Made us guess.

[Jack Armstrong]

Brody, the character in the movie, is a recent transplant from New York City in the film, living a seemingly idyllic life in Amity when a home with a home on the water, although he is not college educated. What's that got to do with any. And did anybody even know that? His primary virtue is that he defers to people who are. And he becomes a foil for Amity's working people, who in the film are portrayed as unpleasant or obtuse and at best well meaning, but short sighted. What are you talking about?

[Joe Getty]

That was what I said. I walked out of Jaws and I said, you know what, honey? The working people are so obtuse in that movie, I couldn't enjoy it.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah, and if you ever go to Universal, and we've probably most of us done that, if you've ever been to Universal Studios in Los Angeles and the old Jaws shark comes out of the water and you go, ah. And it gets you kind of wet. That's exactly what you're thinking. The obtuseness of the working class. That's what you're thinking about?

[Joe Getty]

Wow. Just, you know what you people, fine, do what you. I just don't want you in charge of anything.

[Jack Armstrong]

Well, yeah, I used to think that too. I don't want you to exist, doll. Or you need to be in a camp. Okay, fine, you can live your free.

[Joe Getty]

Prison camp, but you don't get to.

[Jack Armstrong]

Be in college teaching kids this crap and convincing them it's true. Because that is a problem for me.

[Joe Getty]

So true now.

[Jack Armstrong]

Wow.

[Joe Getty]

Speaking of delusions.

[Jack Armstrong]

Wow. Wow. I mean, it just blows my mind that you watched the shark movie and that's what you came away with.

[Joe Getty]

Well, it's. It's a great example of if you spend your. All of your time looking for something, you will find it, whether authentically or not. It's like the race obsession crowd that sees everything through the lens of race. Well, yeah, they'll cook up, you know, examples both real and imagined, of where people have racial feelings that aren't very pretty. But if you don't spend all your time looking for them, like plenty of black and brown and pink people all.

[Jack Armstrong]

Over the World, you're just not worried about it.

[Joe Getty]

Life is fine.

[Jack Armstrong]

I just in my mind conflated the two. I was thinking, I was about to say in the. The. The example of the shark as the other representing the brown and black. No, that was Noah's thing.

[Joe Getty]

Right, right. Yeah.

[Jack Armstrong]

Did you ever have a college class like this? This was hot, like for our age. Subliminal message in advertising and how they're doing it all the time. And I remember the college professor putting up a can of Coke with the water droplets on it and saying, you see how this water droplet is clearly a woman's body and this one is. It's. No, they're just water droplets. It's like staring at clouds and you can think they are anything. There's no subliminal anything going on here. It's just. You're making this all up. This is crap. Whatever.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, yeah. Just sound confident and people buy it. Particularly if you're, you know, within the ivied walls of a university and if you're impressionable youngsters, they don't know better.

[Jack Armstrong]

Combined with. I just need to remember this because you're going to ask me about it on the test.

[Announcer]

Jack Armstrong and Jo Getty. The Armstrong and Getty Show.

[Jack Armstrong]

The Armstrong and Getty show. A question for, I guess, anybody on the staff. So it could be, you know, anybody who works with me. This is. I know. And I know what the answer is going to be.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah.

[Jack Armstrong]

And there's a point to this that can help you, you, the listener, if you suffer from rbf, resting bitch face, which is a common thing. Do I, Jack? Do I come off as unapproachable when really I'm just. This is just my normal face.

[Joe Getty]

Oh, yeah.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah.

[Joe Getty]

I see everybody hesitating. Let me lead the process a million percent.

[Jack Armstrong]

Katie.

[Joe Getty]

Oh, yeah. I. I have sat in meetings thinking, oh, my God, you're radiating hate visibly.

[Jack Armstrong]

So that's the first question on the whole do you have RBF and what to do about it Thing that I came across. I've been working on this for two weeks and I think I'm getting somewhere.

[Joe Getty]

Wow.

[Jack Armstrong]

Okay. Yeah. So some of it is. And I came to this idea on my own, but actually did a research and it's a common thing, practicing neutral expressions. It's the whole resting bitch face is just, you know, maybe you were born that way or for. For some reason a lot of people with age, you just get used to, like, you know, your muscles relaxing and falling and you're the falling muscles of your face kind of put you in a frown for a lot of people. And I've known, I've known lots of people, older people. Like that happens regularly with old people where you see a guy or a woman who just looks so grumpy and you engage them at all and they just light up with a beaming smile. They're. They're not grumpy at all. That's just their face sagging. But why do you laugh at that, Katie?

[Joe Getty]

Like, God, I could just picture you saying that to somebody.

[Jack Armstrong]

Oh, you're actually quite pleasant and your.

[Announcer]

Face was just sagging.

[Jack Armstrong]

You're not a nasty human, right?

[Joe Getty]

And they're thinking, I was thinking the same thing of you, you psycho killer looking bastard.

[Jack Armstrong]

There are practical things you can do if you're concerned about resting bitch face or as friends have told me, I've got rmf resting murdery face, like a step beyond rbf. Whether you're trying to change how others perceive you or feel more approachable. And here's a rundown of your options. Practice neutral expressions in the mirror. I had been doing that and now I've been walking around with what I hope is at least a neutral expression on my face most of the time. Slightly lift the corners of your mouth to create a softer, more approachable resting face. You can also practice relaxed brows. If you got furrowed brows. I don't have that, but I do have the mouth thing. Even if your face seems serious, open posture and eye contact can offset it also. But intentional smiling is a big thing. Try the soft smile when you're in social settings. Barely upturned lips, not. No need for a full grin. That's the thing I've been trying. Hi, how are you? Great. So it's kind of, it was kind of fun. I was on vacation, so, you know, I'm around people I don't know know. So I was able to practice it a lot and I got results and I was, I was comfortable practicing because I don't know the. If I practice, you know, if I first started practicing it around here, people are going to say, are you okay? Are you constipated?

[Joe Getty]

Or do you want something?

[Jack Armstrong]

Or if you go too far with the silly grin, you know, it's like, are you gonna kill me? I mean, what is happening right now? Yeah, what are we doing here? Why do you have that look on your face? But I noticed, and this is so crazy. I was going around with the kind of neutral, slightly upturned expression and getting a noticeably better result out of people that I interacted with. Whether it's Just somebody at the coffee shop or just walking down the street.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Jack Armstrong]

I did. I've been doing this my whole life. Walking down the street looking like I want to kill you and radiating hate, as Joe said, and, and, and, and getting a, an immediate result by trying to change that.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah. Yeah. Wow, that's interesting. There's a person who I love very much, who will remain nameless, who has the. Who has had to learn not to be completely transparent when you've lost her interest, like, she'll tell a story, then you'll tell a story and you'll just say, click. That moment. I totally lost interest on that. And we have been working on a. Oh my God. Cheerfully attentive look.

[Jack Armstrong]

Oh, I'm doing it right now. Right, See, it's better. I like it. It's better. I feel no longer afraid. And you know what's interesting about it? The whole just. It's kind of similar like with stretching. You just get used to your muscles being in a certain way. In my face, in my mind, it feels like I'm grinning like the Joker from Batman. But I look in the mirror and it's just completely neutral because my muscles are so formed to frown.

[Joe Getty]

Right.

[Jack Armstrong]

So it, it's going to take. I got to. I got to make sure I check on a daily basis so I don't end up walking the halls grinning like a homicidal lunatic.

[Joe Getty]

Well, see, that's the idea across the line right here.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah, I like.

[Joe Getty]

Very good.

[Jack Armstrong]

It feels really uncomfortable and unnatural for me, but like I said, I've been getting better results. So give it a whirl, see if you can change it. And of course, the idea with like, with stretching and lifting weights or whatever or posture is it becomes your habit and it just becomes normal and natural and you don't have to try anymore. Quick question for you. What if you happen to miss this unbelievable radio program?

[Joe Getty]

The answer is easy, friends. Just download our podcast. Armstrong and Getty on Demand. It's the podcast version of the broadcast show available anytime, any day. Every single podcast platform known to man.

[Jack Armstrong]

Download it now. Armstrong and Getty on demand. Armstrong and Getty.

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[Jack Armstrong]

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[Joe Getty]

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[Jack Armstrong]

And Getty show the US Navy has dozens of nuclear powered submarines. 14 are capable of carrying nuclear weapons. Each Ohio class sub can carry 20 Trident ballistic missiles with eight nuclear warheads each, meaning one American Ohio class nuclear submarine could strike 160 cities at once. I thought it would be good to play something current before we get into discussion about the anniversary. Eighty years since we dropped the atomic bomb on Japan, we still have wars going on. Nuclear Weapons are still a conversation. People are still willing to fight to the death over a variety, for a variety of reasons. Nothing has changed on that front since World War II. World War I was going to be the war to end all wars. Then we had World War II, which was significantly bigger. And since World War II, we have now had more people die in wars since World War II than happened during World War II.

[Joe Getty]

And I believe as we speak, we have the most armed conflicts going on Earth that has been recorded.

[Jack Armstrong]

Really?

[Joe Getty]

I just heard that yesterday.

[Jack Armstrong]

I, I didn't know that.

[Joe Getty]

It's like 140 or something like that.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah. So I get discouraged sometimes with my love of history and that I feel like it is wrongly portrayed so often or narratives catch on and they just become the truth forever in some cases. And they're not accurate. It's just the way it is. Like our, our friend, we like Victor David Hansen. He's. He's. He wrote a book a couple years called, called the World wars. And he was trying to make the argument that it was. It was really separate wars that we call it World War II, but there were separate wars going on that really didn't have much to do with each other. This other book that I've been reading just recently, Operation Downfall by Richard B. Frank, it's the most recent book written about Downfall was going to be the. Was the campaign for us to end the war with Japan. Japan bombs us. December 7, 1941. They attacked us. Hitler had already been defeated at this point, and we needed to figure out how to finish off the Japanese who were still fighting like crazy. And. But the whole fight in Japan and fighting Germany didn't really have much to do with each other. There are a couple of instances when Japan and Germany kind of work together. But. But if it ever came down to it, I mean, think about it. These are two incredibly racist regimes that believe the other side shouldn't exist on planet Earth or at least ought to.

[Joe Getty]

Stay the hell away.

[Jack Armstrong]

The Nazis would have killed every Japanese person on Earth if they had the opportunity, and vice versa. Japan was an incredibly racist nation. They believed they were superior to the Chinese, let alone the white mongrel United States. And this Frank's guy is trying to make the argument that a lot of historians have, but it just hasn't worked yet that World War II started in 1937 when Japan invaded China and started taking over that part of the globe. But because we're mostly from Europe and we're so Europe focused, and most of our World War II movies are about Europe and fighting the Nazis. We just. We don't. We think World War II started in September of 39 when Germany goes into, you know, Poland and all those countries and starts doing their thing. But the Japanese invaded China in 1937 and started one hell of a war. Eight million Chinese had died at the hands of the Japanese before Pearl Harbor. Eight million Chinese.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah.

[Jack Armstrong]

Japan was one of the most ruthless regimes that's ever existed on planet Earth. Why we regularly refer to Nazis or Hitler like the worst thing that has ever happened, I don't quite know. Stalin was worth worse than Hitler, and the Japanese were more deadly than the Nazis. Japan controlled 20% of the planet. What they were fighting at the time that we defeated them, a significantly greater chunk than the Nazis took over, even though they took over most of Europe.

[Joe Getty]

And call it racism or bigotry or just resentment, but I've always reacted to the obscenely unspeakably stupid statement from progressives that only white people can be racist because ask. Ask a Korean about the Japanese. Right. Ask a Japanese person about the Chinese. Ask a Filipino about any of them. Oh, my God, will they bring the hate anyway? But part of that is fairly legitimate resentment of, I don't know, killing 8 million of our people, often in horrific, you know, ways.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah. And things had gotten so ugly there at the end, fighting Japanese soldiers island by island. As we tried to get close enough to the main island of Japan to, at the time we thought we were going to invade, we ended up deciding that wasn't going to work because it would have been too deadly and too costly. 60, between 60 and 70% of all of our casualties happened in the last year of the war. Half of all Marine deaths happen in the last couple of months as we were fighting island, island. By the time we got to Guadalupe Canal, it was the first battle in which we lost more people. More men died that were US Soldiers than the Japanese lost. And we just figured that that was going to continue. As we got closer to the island and then invading the island, we were going to take way more days than they were going to take. So people who make the argument we shouldn't have dropped the bomb, why do you think we should suffer more losses than the people that attacked us? What's the argument there?

[Joe Getty]

Well, and there. There are a lot of good arguments on that side. Loyal listener Mike in San Francisco urged us me to read about the battle of Okinawa, which raged for two months and three weeks and was one of the last big ones before we were either going to invade Japan or not, but 100,000 Japanese troops in Okinawa, 50,000 Allied casualties, around 100,000 Japanese casualties, also including local Okinawans conscripted into the Japanese army. According to local authorities, at least 149,000 Okinawan people were killed, died by coerced suicide or went missing. So, yeah, the carnage at the end was, well, it's unspeakable, it's unthinkable.

[Jack Armstrong]

It is a version of total war that is practically unseen on planet Earth. Why it doesn't get discussed more often, I don't know. And then as to the idea that Japan would have surrendered at any point. So Japan had never surrendered. Historically, in their 2,700 year existence, they had never surrendered to an invader. And more recently During World War II, no Japanese unit, not one, had surrendered in any battle. No matter how defeated they were, they would continue to fight until they were all dead.

[Joe Getty]

That was just to the last ban their culture.

[Jack Armstrong]

And it's kind of hard for us to get into the mindset of it's why the whole kamikaze thing worked. They had a, they have a culture and a mindset that we do not have of where they would take such great pride to have their young son go get in a plane and fly it into a ship and die. They were perfectly okay with that. It made every bit of sense to them to serve their God King Hirohito thing that they had going on that we also can't quite wrap our heads around culturally because it not only was it a monarch, but it was a religious figure. And we just, we can't. It doesn't make any sense to us culturally, the way that that worked. Roosevelt also believed, if you're a fan of World War I, you know, the whole stabbed in the back myth that entered into Germany after Germany lost and we, we left their government, we, the Allies, left their government in charge. Then the young Hitlers of the world, people that had fought in the war, started this whole. Our government stabbed us in the back and it's the dirty Jews that caused us thing that grew and grew and grew and led to the rise of the anger of the German society and Nazi Germany in World War II and all that. Roosevelt knew that and he didn't want to leave in Germany or Japan any. He wanted to make sure Roosevelt believed Germany and Japan, every man, woman and child in the country had to believe they were defeated to make sure that they, either one of them didn't rise up again. They had to all know they were beaten, completely beaten. They weren't their own Government didn't stab in the back. Nothing like that happened. They were soundly defeated. And that was one of the reasons I had to take it clear to the end the way they did, combined with the. Nobody had ever surrendered, so there was no reason to think they would ever give up. The Japanese we now have, we've only had this for 30 years. We now have the communications that were going on in Japan. Thanks to Japanese historians, there are only six people in control of the whole decision they called the big six. Five of them were in the military and they had no interest in surrendering whatsoever. And they were willing to lose tens of millions of Japanese civilians. They believed if we, if we surrounded them and did a blockade and tried to starve them out, which ended up, that was going to be the plan. If we didn't drop the bomb, we were going to surround Japan and starve millions of people until they surrendered, which would have killed way more people than the bombs killed. But the, the big six in Japan, they figured if, if 20 million Japanese starve, the world opinion will finally turn against the allies in the United States.

[Joe Getty]

And we'll be very Hamas like strategy.

[Jack Armstrong]

Exactly. And we'll be able to negotiate a much better situation. They're perfectly comfortable with that. For anybody who argues that there is a way out that would have been less deadly than the nuclear weapons. Also I mentioned it the other day, but worth mentioning again, around 200,000 people were killed by the bombs. It's hard, depends on where you, you know, you do the cutoff because the cancer later and everything like that. But around 200,000 died from the bombs that were dropped 80 years ago tomorrow. And then on the 9th, the other bomb, twice as many Japanese as that died at the hands of the Russians in the very same weeks as Russia was coming on and taking ground, trying to take it back from zap. Much more ruthless than we were. When do you ever hear anybody say anything about that?

[Joe Getty]

Well, yeah, self hatred is the, the hallmark of the progressive and, and they're proud of it. They stoke it. They like it. And it's, it's just, it's, it's perverse.

[Jack Armstrong]

They had a million men ready to defend a ground invasion, some 8,000 planes, maybe half of which were going to be kamikazes, attacking every one of our ships, which would have been that that's why they ultimately decided, and we've only known this since the 90s, that are our Navy decided we ain't going to do this. That that's a no, we're a no vote on that so the ground invasion was not going to happen because it would have been too deadly. It just absolutely couldn't be done. So it was either starve them out or drop the bomb. So I went to the Oppenheimer movie with a friend. When was that? Three, four years ago that that Oppenheimer movie came out. This friend was a super lib. But anyway, we're driving away from the movie theater and we're having a conversation about the whole should we have dropped the bomb or not? Kind of got started the conversation and it was very funny because it took us 10, 15 minutes of driving and saying, I know, can you believe that? There are some people that believe that. Before we realized we were, we had completely different positions, we were both saying, I know, it's crazy that people believe that. I was thinking it's crazy that people believe we shouldn't have dropped the bomb. She was thinking, it's crazy that people think we should have dropped the bomb. And at some point, and it got very quiet in the car after that, we realized, oh, oh, we're completely on the opposite side of this because those of us on whichever side just can't believe the other side believes what they believe. And I'm on the side of obviously we should have dropped the bomb. Who wouldn't have given the circumstances. But there are plenty of people that think it's just nuts that we opened up the can of worms and it's one of the great black marks in U.S. history that we crossed that line and dropped an atomic bomb on Japan.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah.

[Jack Armstrong]

What's the other pushback? The best. What's the, what's the college kid, college professor pushback on dropping the bomb?

[Joe Getty]

That Japan was prepared to offer a not unconditional but more or less complete surrender and that it just had to be worked out over the course of a couple more days of conversation.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah, there's no documentation for that.

[Joe Getty]

There are a couple of communications from a couple of people that hint that that might be possible and they extrapolate from there and feel free we can talk about this as long as you want. But on the at home sociological, why do people believe what your friend did? It occurred to me, and I've said this many, many times, that if you are on the left, you get a great deal of social reinforcement, a lot of pats on the back, acceptance for being a self hating American. But it's funny, I hadn't really looked at it from the other perspective. You cannot be accepted in those circles if you are a patriotic American who thinks by and large we have been a great country doing mostly the right thing. I mean, that is, you are drummed out. That's, it's, it's like committing an act of violence, you know, at a social club. That's it. There's no hearing you're gone. That's, that's enormous social pressure for those people.

[Jack Armstrong]

Well, just as a response to your thing before we, and we can break and I don't want to get too in the weeds on this, but the big six made all the decisions for Japan. If there was going to be any sort of surrender, they would have to do it. There's no indication anybody in that group wanted to surrender. And five of the six were in the military and they absolutely were into fighting to the last man. So it just was never going to happen.

[Joe Getty]

Right.

[Jack Armstrong]

Anyway, I wanted to get this on on the 5th because I have a feeling tomorrow you'll hear a lot of news from mainstream media pushing the idea that we did something wrong. And I'll be interested to see how that plays on your evening newscast, the.

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Armstrong and Getty Show.

[Jack Armstrong]

Get more Jack, more Joe podcasts and.

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[Jack Armstrong]

Come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

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[Jack Armstrong]

Whoa.

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[Jack Armstrong]

The Armstrong and Getty show.

[Joe Getty]

Do you.

[Jack Armstrong]

Have all the a compelling reason for why we the 80 year anniversary of us dropping the bomb on Japan is tomorrow. Do you have a reason why we focus so much more on the, the, the fighting the Nazis, European part of World War II as opposed to the Pacific War?

[Joe Getty]

I, I, I don't know that I've perceived that in the same way you did. I've always been into the Pacific War partly because my father in law served there and I've always been acutely aware of it. I don't know, maybe culturally, I don't know.

[Jack Armstrong]

I know factually in terms of movies and books and everything, like the whole European theater dominates and has forever. I think it's because it was just so morally more clear cut. Things got so ugly against the Japanese bit by bit, island by island, where both sides were just so the book I'm reading, read several of them. Twilight of the Gods by Ian Toll, which is considered one of the definitive books on it. He had a story, oh, by the way, we got a text, the Japanese. The text was, it's cute that you think the Japanese surrendered because of the bombs. It was because they knew Russia was coming. There's no documentation about that. If you have a book that says that's true, that's a common narrative, but there's no documentation that that conversation was being had by the big six who made these decisions in Japan. So if you have a different book that says they were, you know, feel free to text me. I'd be interested in reading it, for instance, on one of the islands and I don't remember which one it was, but this became a common thing. Our marines would come across dead US soldiers who had had their genitals cut off and shoved in their mouth sometimes while they were alive by the Japanese. So the Japanese soldiers would come across a, you know, a wounded Marine, cut off his junk, stick it in his mouth. So we got more and more brutal and it just, it got that way to where it was just like freaking Lord of the Flies war. As awful as it could get, foot by foot, trench by trench, in the mud and the blood and your own feces and everything right across the islands. And that's what it was going to be in Japan. And it had a story in there of collecting gold teeth became a thing. So US soldiers would collect gold teeth and it had a story in there about one US soldier coming across a wounded but still alive Japanese who he then took his bayonet and started digging in the guy's mouth, trying to pry his teeth out while he's still alive. Some of some of his fellow US soldiers said, dude, that's not cool, came up and shot the guy in the head to put him out of his misery. But that's the sort of warfare it was there at the end and it was going to be that times who knows how many thousand on the beaches of Japan if we actually invaded.

[Joe Getty]

Well, and I think Europe got more coverage partly because a film crew could would do what they did then go back to Paris or London or whatever. And so you can't do that in the islands of the Pacific. Armstrong and Getty Crisis A legend falls on hard times.

[Jack Armstrong]

Bad trucker with a license, bad therapy.

[Joe Getty]

And a mouthy wench. They covered it all this morning and.

[Jack Armstrong]

Tomorrow they'll do even more. The Armstrong and Giddy show the conscience of a nation. Ah, come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

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[Jack Armstrong]

Whoa, this thing moves.

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[Jack Armstrong]

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[Jack Armstrong]

Cool.

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[Jack Armstrong]

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[Jack Armstrong]

Never seen anything like Eminem fans.

[Announcer]

This is the story of a fan base. I had to look in the mirror and be like, am I one of these crazy Stans that created a culture? I do have an addiction to Eminem.

[Jack Armstrong]

I traveled the world for him. Without Eminem, I wouldn't have the life I have right now. What's your first question?

[Announcer]

Stan's new documentary, now streaming on Paramount plus this is an iHeart podcast.