Too Deep & You'll Drive Her Away!

Summary

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Armstrong & Getty On Demand

Episode: Too Deep & You'll Drive Her Away!
Date: April 10, 2026
Host: Joe Getty (Jack Armstrong absent, checking in later)
Notable Guests: Greg Lukianoff (President, Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression - FIRE)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on themes of risk and precision—embodied by the Artemis II space mission’s dangerous re-entry, and mirrored in discussions about free speech, cancel culture, and how societies navigate the fine line between safety, expression, and overcorrection. Key guests include Greg Lukianoff on the state of free speech and cancel culture, with the hour punctuated by news analysis and signature irreverent commentary on current events.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Artemis II Re-Entry: Danger, Precision, and Metaphor

Segment: [03:16–09:44]

• Spacecraft Re-Entry Risks:

  • The Artemis II crew faces its most dangerous phase: returning through Earth's atmosphere at 25,000 mph, with temperatures nearing 5,000°F ([03:16]).
  • The technical explanation: if the spacecraft’s angle is too steep or too shallow, catastrophic failure or missing reentry entirely could occur.
    • “Too steep, the crew could face intense G forces and structural stress. Too shallow and the spacecraft could bounce off of the atmosphere entirely.” – Sally Bradley, News Reporter ([05:06])
  • The only protection: an improved but not redesigned heat shield, a point of both public and astronaut concern.

• Memorable Metaphor:

  • Joe Getty riffs: “That’s actually a couple really good tips for your first conversation with a woman you’d like to impress. Too deep and you’ll drive her away. Too shallow, same result. Gotta go the perfect trajectory.” ([05:32])

• Astronauts’ Confidence:

  • Despite prior heat shield issues (seen in Artemis I), astronauts publicly express faith in NASA’s adjustments ([06:03], [06:34], [09:29]).

• Host Reflections:

  • Joe emphasizes the importance of daring feats and scientific risk—drawing a line between bold exploration and the dangers of over-caution for both individuals and society:
    • “Taking chances, whether as a country or in life. Don’t curl up into the fetal position. Just wait to be dead as a human being or a country.” ([08:41])

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2. Clips of the Week & News Roundup

Segment: [11:13–17:30]

• International Tension:

  • Ceasefire instability in the Middle East, biting summaries of US–Iran relations, and tough talk from global actors.

• News Bites:

  • Melania Trump’s statement about Jeffrey Epstein becomes a point of media speculation ([13:21–14:10]).
  • Inflation update: 3.3% in March due to fuel (Wall Street Journal) ([15:16]).
  • Human & AI quirks: A story about “digital body language” ruining dating app outcomes (USA Today), and speculative tech like robot guide dogs ([16:14]).

• Comic Relief:

  • Babylon Bee lampoons Canada’s approach to euthanasia ([16:46]).

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3. Free Speech Crisis: Interview with Greg Lukianoff (FIRE)

Segment: [17:33–34:29]

The State of Free Speech (US & Globally)

• Free Speech Under Siege:
  • Lukianoff offers a sober assessment—globally, and increasingly in the US, free speech is being curtailed, both legally (harsh “hate speech” laws in UK, proposed codes in Ireland/Canada) and culturally.
  • “Free speech is in trouble globally... And here [the US], I’m afraid we’re blowing it as well due to partisan politics.” ([18:36])
• Generational Divide:
  • Lukianoff laments that younger Americans are not being taught to defend free speech, even for views they detest ([19:20]).

Cancel Culture vs. Consequences

• Defining Cancel Culture:
  • While organizations or companies can make hiring/firing choices based on speech, the cultural trend is dangerous:
    • “Do you want to live in the kind of country where you can have an opinion or a job, but not both?” ([24:24])
• Loss of Pluralism:
  • American idioms like “it’s a free country” or “to each their own” are vanishing, replaced by a demand for ideological purity ([25:00]).

The Philosophy Behind “Speech Policing”

• Roots in Critical Theory:
  • Joe Getty connects modern censorship to thinkers like Michel Foucault and Herbert Marcuse, noting their explicit advocacy for restricting speech in pursuit of ideological goals ([29:23], [30:32]).
  • Lukianoff: “Herbert Marcuse... was incredibly clear that he thought there should be free speech for the left and not for the right. He couldn’t have said it more plainly... That view... has taken over in a lot of spaces.” ([30:32])

What Can Be Done?

• Call to Action:

  • Lukianoff’s advice:
    • “Make it known that when someone gets in trouble for speech you personally disagree with, you do not think they should be fired, you do not think they should be arrested... Because that’s the thing that brought people like me into this business—seeing the ACLU stand up for the rights of even Nazis.” ([33:01])
  • The hosts and guest agree: defending abhorrent speech is the bedrock of principled liberty.

• Personal Anecdotes:

  • Getty recalls growing up near Skokie, IL, and learning about the importance of free speech:
    • “...it gives me chills thinking about it because it was such a formative moment.” ([33:40])

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Too deep and you’ll drive her away. Too shallow, same result. Gotta go the perfect trajectory.” – Joe Getty ([05:32])
• “Free speech is in trouble globally... And here, I’m afraid we’re blowing it as well due to partisan politics.” – Greg Lukianoff ([18:36])
• “Do you want to live in the kind of country where you can have an opinion or a job, but not both? And rethink that.” – Greg Lukianoff ([24:24])
• “Taking chances, whether as a country or in life. Don’t curl up into the fetal position. Just wait to be dead as a human being or a country.” – Joe Getty ([08:41])
• “Political disagreement is increasingly treated as a serious moral offense rather than a simple difference of opinion. When you see the world that way, punishing someone for holding different views becomes a moral good.” – Joe Getty, attributing an anonymous quote ([26:55])
• “That’s the kind of thing that gets people to understand that free speech belongs to everyone or it belongs to no one.” – Greg Lukianoff ([33:40])

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Timestamps: Segment Guide

• 00:35–03:16: Show overview, main topics, preview of guests
• 03:16–09:44: Artemis II re-entry dangers, metaphor for life/relationships, astronaut confidence
• 11:13–17:30: Clips of the week, news roundups, Melania/Epstein, inflation, digital dating, AI for the disabled
• 17:33–34:29: Extended interview with Greg Lukianoff: free speech in crisis, cancel culture, campus climate, critical theory’s influence, action steps
• 34:31–35:42: Transition to next hour; tease: education discussion, more on Iran/Straits of Hormuz

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Conclusion & Takeaways

This Armstrong & Getty episode blends high-stakes current events (space exploration and geopolitics) with a high-level debate on cultural and legal struggles over expression. The hosts and guest Greg Lukianoff stress that the health of a democracy rests on defending even the most offensive speech and warn against the growing risks—both at home and abroad—to open dialogue. The Artemis II mission’s razor-thin margin for error becomes a symbol for the perils of extremism in both technological and societal pursuits: staying bold, not too deep, not too shallow, on that perfect trajectory.

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Transcript

[Greg Lukianoff]

This is an iHeart podcast, guaranteed human. Broadcasting. Live from the Abraham Lincoln Radio Studio at the George Washington Broadcast Center, Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty.

[Joe Getty]

Armstrong and Getty.

[Greg Lukianoff]

And now here's Armstrong.

[Joe Getty]

Live from Studio C. Senor. Deep within the dirty bowels of the Armstrong and Getty Information Complex, this is the Armstrong and Getty show for Friday the 10th of April, the year of our Lord 2026. And you know, it's funny, I forgot to come up with titles for today. Jack is off. He will be checking in later. But if I had, it would have something to do with astronauts plunging back to earth, wars that look like ceasefires and CE ceasefires that look like wars. Melania making mysterious statements might have factored in the in the title and I might have gone for the Masters as well. I shouldn't curse it. I have one friend who is a professional golfer and he had a great day in the first round and fingers crossed he makes the cut and plays on the weekend. Anyway, more on that maybe later. Great show planned out for you today, including conversations I'm really looking forward to with Greg Lukianoff of fire, which is the foundation for Individual Rights and Expression. Started out as foundation for individual rights and education, but they branched out to defend free speech in general, which is, you know, it's like Mike Jihad number one, talking to Mike Lyons about the situation in Iran slash the Straits of Hormuz, slash Israel, Lebanon and everywhere else that the fighting is going on. And on that topic, I really, really want to bring to you a piece written by a terrific author who said the title is why the West Refuses to Call this a Holy War when it clearly is. So we'll lay that out. Also, Tim Sandifer has a new book out about the Declaration of Independence and our nation's 250th birthday. Super thought provoking, always fun to talk to Timothy. And we'll also be talking to Gordon Chang during hour four about the situation with China, which is receded a bit into the background. But there are a couple of really, really interesting angles, including it's become clear Trump 2 is way more conciliatory and dare I say, soft on China than Trump 1 was. And I praised Trump 1 lavishly for, you know, for all of his imperfections, waking up the country to what a threat China is. So what does all this mean? We'll talk about that with Gordon Chang. Looking forward to that. Why don't we go ahead and start the show officially now because we want to talk about the topic of the clip. Here we go at Mark, I was

[News Reporter]

just talking to an employee out here at the Space center in Houston and they were explaining, yeah, there is no plan B, they're coming home. The Artemis II crew has been up in space for more than a week and now they're preparing for the most dangerous leg of their journey here. Re entry. It's a high speed plunge back through the Earth's atmosphere. So Orion, the spacecraft that they're in, is going to slam into the atmosphere at nearly 25,000 miles an hour.

[Joe Getty]

Sally Bradley on News Nation. I think it may have been on ABC News. Is that the one that Bent knows Jackass is on Katie. David muir, ABC News oh, yeah, yep. Yeah, they had an expert on that. Actually put it in a way it never occurred to me. I'm not good at physics and that sort of thing. But when you blast off the spacecraft with spectacular amounts of energy and it achieves mind boggling speeds and then slingshots around the moon and the rest of it, something has to arrest that energy so it can land gently in the water. All of that energy has to get dissipated and it gets dissipated by the reentry into the atmosphere, which is again a fireball of certain death unless the heat shield holds. God bless the. Was it the Challenger that broke apart on reentry? Apologies if that's not the right mission that broke up over Texas. But anyway, their heat shield had gotten damaged and failed and it was horrible. But yeah, it's a near incomprehensible exchange of energy, if you will, to slow the capsule down. Let's go ahead a little more with the Ally Bradley report.

[News Reporter]

Now, if the trajectory is off just a little bit, it could be catastrophic. Too steep, the crew could face intense G forces and structural stress. Too shallow and the spacecraft could bounce off of the atmosphere entirely. The capsule is going to generate temperatures close to 5,000 degrees during reentry, becoming a fireball as it tears through the sky. Mission Control expects to lose contact with the crew for several minutes during re entry.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, that's actually a couple really good tips for your first conversation with a woman you'd like to impress. Too deep and you'll drive her away. Too shallow, same result. Gotta go the perfect trajectory. Michael, I know you know this. Yeah, studied under my wing for many years.

[Katie Green]

Not wrong.

[Joe Getty]

That's how you landed that beautiful girl you married, you lucky dog. So let's plunge on now with CBS EVENING News talking about the very same extremely high risk reentry situation.

[Greg Lukianoff]

The unpiloted Artemis I mission in 2022. This is video Looking outside its blistering re entry, pieces of the heat shield kept flying off. Engineers later found holes and cracks pocking the shield's outer char layer. A crew would have survived, but it was worrisome. NASA decided to keep the same heat shield but modify the trajectory of the capsule's return. Lead flight director Jeff Ratigan.

[Joe Getty]

We've done our homework and we've really done the testing.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Do you feel good about it?

[Joe Getty]

I do feel good about it, yes.

[Greg Lukianoff]

When we talked to the crew about the heat shield, they all said they were confident that NASA had made the right call and the right fix.

[Joe Getty]

Fair enough. Katie, you as a grizzled taker inner of news is the heat shield might fail stuff. Clickbait or I mean because we've re entered on from space missions many times.

[Katie Green]

Right.

[Joe Getty]

Successfully.

[Katie Green]

I think it's the fact that it's the same heat shield that they're kind of leaning on because. And the images that they were talking about in that video, it looked bad. I mean, the outside was destroyed. So if they don't get this new trajectory right, you know, this could be awful.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm torn because I don't want to overplay this. On the other hand, I'm a huge fan of space missions, as are all of us and Jack as well. And I worry about these guys as they return to Earth. Yeah. NASA is so exacting. If they say, oh no, it was the trajectory and we got it right now, I would tend to believe them. I mean, if they say the thing's coming down at 8:43am it'll be down at 8:43aM, not 8:44 or 8:42. So I certainly hope they're as competent as they seem to be. Although there have been a couple of terrible disasters. One more clip on this topic. This is Daniel Levis, who was an. I think he was an astronaut, right?

[Katie Green]

Yeah, he was an astronaut.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah. Okay, let's hear him.

[Daniel Levis]

I'm going to give you three numbers to remember. 25,000, 5010. The Artemis Orion capsule would be coming in at 25,000 miles an hour and entering the Earth's atmosphere. During that time, it will be dissipating heat. The peak temperatures on orion will reach 5,000 degrees and it'll have to pass through that thicker part of the thinner part of the atmosphere that fast. It'll take about 10 minutes to get through it all. So once we get to the first 10 minutes of re entry, you know, then we're home free and past the peak heating area of reentry 10 or

[Joe Getty]

so minutes at 5,000 degrees.

[Katie Green]

Yeah.

[Joe Getty]

I mean, what do you clean your oven at, like 500, 550.

[Katie Green]

Yeah. Like 550 is where.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah. So 10 times as hot as that for 10 minutes. Great Scott. Okay. All right. Say a quiet prayer or cross your fingers or whatever you like for America's heroes. I think it's so important that we as a country continue to reach out and explore and dare to do exciting things, grow scientifically, intellectually. The stare at your naval crowd, they're the worst thing for the country. We need to continue to be bold. And, you know, here I am prattling on and on about how I want these people to be safe but taking chances, whether as a country or in life. Don't. Don't curl up into the fetal position. Just wait to be dead as a human being or a country. Yeah, Katie.

[Katie Green]

Well, and the confidence that these astronauts have, too. I mean, because, I mean, they're the ones doing this, and they're up there saying, no, this is going to be. This is going to be great. NASA nailed it.

[Joe Getty]

So I've seen the science. We're fine. Yeah, yeah. Maybe they just don't want to talk about it.

[Katie Green]

Oh, my gosh, they're just crapping their pants.

[Joe Getty]

Can we talk about something else, please? Don't want to talk about the eggshield anymore? I doubt it. All right, so we're going to break now, semi on time, because we have clips of the week and Katie's headlines squeezed together so we can talk to Greg Lukianoff at the bottom of the hour. Please do stay with us.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Armstrong and Gettys.

[Joe Getty]

Welcome. Thanks for being here. All right, I came up with a couple of titles real quick. First of all, a Game of Telephone with five different languages. That's what the negotiations remind me of. You remember the Game of Telephone?

[Katie Green]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe Getty]

Play as a kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That. That game always almost disturbed me, because I could. And it's just the way my brain works. I could remember what they said verbatim. I mean, exactly. Yeah. Just I couldn't not remember it. So I never quite got how it twisted. I would get impatient with people and be like, just say what the person said to you. Not realizing that everybody's brain works differently.

[Katie Green]

I never played with people mature enough to not mess it up on purpose.

[Joe Getty]

Oh, okay. Hilarious. See, I have no sense of humor, so I wouldn't accept that either. And then my other title is going to be Be My Guest because we've got some great ones, including Greg Lukianoff. Coming up in moments from fire. But first, before we get to Katie's headlines, we're compressing everything, making this up as we go. Let's take a fond look back at the week that was. It's Cal Clips of the week.

[Katie Green]

Open the expletive straight, you crazy bastards.

[Joe Getty]

Open the straight, you crazy bastards.

[Katie Green]

Iran and the US Vowing to send each other to hell.

[Joe Getty]

The entire country can be taken out in one night, and that night might be tomorrow night.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Failing to meet his terms will result in Iran being bombed back to the, quote, Stone Ages. It was truly the 11th hour down to the wire when President Trump announced this cease fire agreement.

[Katie Green]

We'll be hanging around. We're not going anywhere.

[Joe Getty]

Stage two of this cease fire is already looking shaky right now.

[Katie Green]

President Trump's main condition for this truce

[News Reporter]

is not being met.

[Joe Getty]

The Iranians are still saying publicly they're

[Greg Lukianoff]

in control of the strait and that it is closed. Right now.

[Joe Getty]

We're obliterating. And they just. I don't want to say uncle, what happened.

[Greg Lukianoff]

I don't think the voters fully understood, and neither did we in the public sector what it was going to take to actually get this project delivered. I can't stop thinking about how grass

[Katie Green]

lawns are racist and like, based in white supremacy.

[Joe Getty]

Experts have found that strong glute muscles

[Greg Lukianoff]

can increase a person's lifespan but also drain a brother's bank account.

[Katie Green]

So one of the tests that we

[Greg Lukianoff]

do is trying to get them to say something like, Kim Jong Un is

[Joe Getty]

a fat, ugly pig.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Could you, could you say that for me?

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, I, sorry, I just say, I should say like that, like every problem

[News Reporter]

that we have in society right now will be fixed when women come together.

[Greg Lukianoff]

They provided $0 to deal with the ongoing genocide of MMIWG2SLGBTQIA. MMIWG2SL US LGBTQIA. The lies linking me with the disgraceful Jeffrey Epstein need to end today. It's clips of the week.

[Joe Getty]

We'll see if we can get to the Melania Epstein statement at some point. I think most everybody's reaction, including I've heard the White Houses, was, okay, okay. Nobody's quite sure exactly what motivated it. There are some clues, some. Some author who put out some tell all type book has been doing podcasts saying that she had an association with Epstein. But, I mean, nobody knew that had happened until she brought it to our attention. So is there more to it than that, Katie, as far as you can tell, or.

[Katie Green]

The only source that I saw really hammering this message was cnn, but they were saying, oh, she's doing this so she can get out in front of something before it comes out to.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, okay.

[Katie Green]

Who knows?

[Joe Getty]

I just, I, I. You know what? Melania seems like a lovely gal. I can't see making the decisions in life she's made, but I'm not a woman. And a Slovenian supermodel, certainly. But thanks for bringing Epstein up again. Damn it.

[Katie Green]

I know. It was so close to just being in the. Just a slight distant past.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, here it comes again. All right, let's figure out who's reporting what. It's lead story with Katie Green. Katie.

[Katie Green]

All right, starting with the major networks talking about Iran still. Abc, Trump says Iran, quote, better not collect strait of Hormuz toll. Cbs, US And Iran prepare for talks as shaky ceasefire holds. Strait of Hormuz traffic remains low. And NBC, Pakistan and France condemn Lebanon ceasefire violations.

[Joe Getty]

Oh, shut up. France, I know. Lebanon, I get well, quit having armed political parties. Lebanon. I know we can't help it. They're tougher than we are, but France, shut up.

[Katie Green]

From the Wall Street Journal. Inflation rose to 3.3% in March, driven by rising fuel costs.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah. Is this a trend or a blip? Talking heads are going to babble all day long. I don't think we will, but it's not good.

[Katie Green]

From the New York Post, Robert McIntyre flips the middle finger in wild Masters meltdown.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, he was unhinged. He's a really great Scottish golfer. Kind of pasty, slightly pudgy looking guy, but hot tempered. And couple of times he like hit a bad shot and stuff, slammed his club into the turf, which then he and his caddy tried to set right. But you don't do that at Augusta national, son. There are super famous champion golfers who've screwed around. And Augusta said, this is an invitational tournament, son. You will not be asked back again. So it's a major scandal in the world of golf.

[Katie Green]

USA Today. Are you struggling with dating apps? It could be your digital body language.

[Joe Getty]

Oh, we need to get into that later.

[Katie Green]

Yes. Study finds talking robot guide dog could change how visually impaired people navigate.

[Joe Getty]

That is one of the areas AI could be wonderful.

[Katie Green]

Yes.

[Joe Getty]

The handicapped, blind, elderly could be incredible. Please don't crush our civilization and drain our vital fluids. Please.

[Katie Green]

And finally, this one from the Babylon Bee. Canadian astronaut humanely euthanized after suffering light bruise during moon mission.

[Joe Getty]

Oh, that's a good shot at Canada's culture of death. Yeah. Troubling. Heavy. You ended on a heavy note. That was supposed to be funny, not heavy, Heidi.

[Katie Green]

Yeah, I know.

[Joe Getty]

Wow. Wow.

[Katie Green]

Slim Pickings at the Babylon today.

[Joe Getty]

Sorry, your annual review is going to be a rough one. All right, whatever. Hey, can't wait to talk to Greg Lukianoff. He's coming up in just a moment or two to talk about free speech and speech on campuses and cancel culture and all sorts of stuff, whatever, wherever the conversation goes. First Amendment on our nation's birthday. Stay with us.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Armstrong and Getty.

[Joe Getty]

What a pleasure this is to talk about the freedom of speech, the First Amendment, the perhaps most vital principle any self governing people can hold, with Greg Lukianoff of the foundation for Individual Rights and Expression. Greg is actually the president and CEO, also the author of a handful of books that I have really, really enjoyed, including Unlearning Liberty, Campus Censorship and the End of American Debate, Freedom from Speech. And I really enjoyed a shortish book that'd be a great place to start the War on Words. Arguments Against Free Speech and why they Fail with Nadine Strossen. Greg Welco. How are you?

[Greg Lukianoff]

I'm pretty good. Unfortunately, business is booming for First Amendment attorneys these days and that's never a good sign for the country.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, yeah. And I think both sides indulge too frequently, too easily in let's silence the other guys because we don't like what they say, obviously. How would you characterize these, the state of free speech in the US Right now And we'll just go from there.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Well, you know, I want to expand it even from there because I think people really need to get. And I want to say this to your ent audience. Free speech is in trouble globally. Obviously China and Iran and Russia were not free countries, but the level of totalitarianism that you can deliver with a combination of surveillance and AI is terrifying. The European Union and the UK have completely turned around on free speech. So they're arresting something like 12,000 people a year in Britain now for essentially hate speech in Britain. I mean, my mother's British. They used to laugh at us for political correctness here and now they're enforcing it by law. Canada and Ireland were playing with actually passing a hate speech code that would that could result in life in prison. And even within the U.S. like, we're the only country left that really cares about free speech, you know, down to our core. And here I'm afraid we're blowing it as well due to partisan politics. So I know like I'm a Gen Xer. People my age and older, whether we're right, left or center, we get freedom of speech, but we need people to come together to defend it for Opinions they don't like, just like we used to in the old days. Because the only way you really prove that you care about free speech is not defending the free speech that you already agree with, but it's the stuff that you actually disdain, that that's how you show your commitment.

[Joe Getty]

Precisely. I think we need to teach over and over again that it's the sort of speech that anybody would object to that needs to be protected. Because speech nobody objects to doesn't need protection, you ninnies.

[Greg Lukianoff]

You know, it strikes me, well, except on campus. Sometimes something can get you in trouble on campus. Sometimes it's like I don't even understand how people manage to be offended by that.

[Joe Getty]

You know, I want to get to campuses specifically in a minute. But it struck me as you were describing the global free speech issues, that the motivations behind the cracking down on speech were different in different places. Rampant immigration from the Muslim world in the UK in particular and Canada is one of the core issues there. Very different issues in the U.S. but the thought that clicked in my brain and give me long enough, I'll come up with the obvious, is that the right to free speech is a bulwark against like any out of control cause or philosophy.

[Greg Lukianoff]

It absolutely is. Because here's the thing, you know, we're, our founding fathers were brilliant. They were basically proto neuroscientists. Like they understood that we, our brains are incredibly good at rationalizing our way into something that suits our interests that we can, you know, kid ourselves. We're actually thinking of all humankind. And power always wants greater control over, over speech and even more dramatically, and this is one of the reasons why we have the protections of the First Amendment. That's why we have an establishment clause for that matter. These are things that our system of government really understood. But power will always rationalize its ability to be like, I should be able to shut up people who really piss me off. You know, like I should be able to go after that speech and here's my high minded sounding reason to do it. And having something as powerful as the First Amendment to say no, we're not doing this year has been one of our real, real saving graces. But we're undermining it by a death of a thousand cuts at the moment.

[Joe Getty]

Well, and as you mentioned, it is highly disturbing that a lot of the younger generations have, and this is entirely our fault, have been anesthetized into either not noticing the incursions in free speech or encouraging them. The COVID period was an absolute nightmare in my Opinion, the exercise of government control, quashing of dissent and that sort of thing,

[Greg Lukianoff]

but also the cultural aspect of it. So Covid in 2020, fire. You know, my organization, the foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, used to be the foundation for individual rights in education because we were focused on the really severe threats to free speech, academic freedom, et cetera in higher ed. But it was 2020 that made us decide that we have to become the foundation for individual rights and expression to defend free speech for everybody, even beyond campus, because we also saw one government coercion. But even scarier to us in a lot of ways was a lot of Americans saying, I'm going to get you. It was cancel culture. I wrote a book called Canceling of the American Mind about this to demonstrate with data that this really happened. And it was insane because there's still people who are claiming that this didn't happen. No, it was a free speech disaster. Disaster during that time. And we realized that if we have a situation where people really think that you have a right not to be offended and that it's actually noble to censor what you consider to be bad people, we've really fallen astray. So one of the things that makes FIRE different is we don't just fight in court. And believe me, we do fight in court. We are also trying to get people to understand the philosophy of freedom of speech, how to live with it, and all the benefits of it as well, because we want to make sure we pass this down to our grandkids.

[Joe Getty]

Amen to that. We're talking to Greg Gluciano from fire. So let's talk a little bit about cancel culture. One of the more interesting conversations I've been following through the last several years is what is quote, unquote, cancel culture, as opposed to the birds of what you say coming home to roost, taking responsibility for what you say. How can you tell if it's, quote, unquote, cancel culture?

[Greg Lukianoff]

Cancel culture. The thing that lawyers sound so frustrating about cancel culture is that because it's about a cultural norm, it has to be a little. A little looser, but really kind of like what? And I try to get people to think about this in the aggregate that essentially, yes. Can a private company decide to fire someone because they don't like their expression? Absolutely they can. And actually, under the First Amendment, I'd fight for the right to do that, But I'm always trying to get people to take a deep breath and if you're. And ask themselves, do you want to live in the kind of country where you can have an opinion or a job, but not both. And rethink that. Because one of the things that really is falling away is this sense of pluralism that essentially it's okay if my pizza boy wants to vote for Trump or Biden. Like, it doesn't. Like, that's fine. You know, I think of these old American idioms that we used to say a lot of times when we were kids that have lost favor and kids today don't know as much. They're as simple as, everyone's entitled to their opinion, to each their own. You know, walk a mile in a man's shoes is kind of saying essentially. Essentially the same thing. It's a free country. We said all the time are really important, small d Democratic values. And I think that if you're seeing a situation in which someone, you know, like, yeah, sure, someone's being unprofessional in their job, you know, there's no question, you know, you can fire them. But, for example, there was a case at the Washington Post where there was a. There was an opinion reporter. He retweeted one slightly. I mean, very slightly edgy joke. Retweeted it. And then, of course, there was this huge, you know, you know, backlash to get him suspended or fired. And I was like, listen, if you want to know what cancel culture and free speech culture look like, what free speech culture looks like is to say, do we really want to punish this Washington Post reporter just for retweeting a joke?

[Joe Getty]

Right. Yeah. Yeah. So it's funny. I wrote down this quote and posted on the studio wall here, and I didn't write who said it. And, God, it could have been you. It might be Peter Boghossian or Jonathan Haidt, I'm not sure. But what they said was, political disagreement is increasingly treated as a serious moral offense rather than a simple difference of opinion. When you see the world that way, punishing someone for holding different views becomes a moral good. I thought that was a really good explanation.

[Greg Lukianoff]

That really could be any of us, come to think of it.

[Joe Getty]

I'm stealing it.

[Greg Lukianoff]

And I hope you will, you know, because we want this to catch on, because it really is very much with our own lifetime that we had very different attitudes about free speech as a society. And I will say that the role that K. Through PhD has played in that erosion is really. So there was someone who wrote recently on Twitter, like, given. And we are absolutely. We fight people all across the spectrum. We were suing the Trump administration. We're in a lawsuit against Trump himself. On free speech grounds, we are the most nonpartisan institution in the country. But someone actually wrote to my co author, Ricky Schlott on Twitter of canceling the American Mind. You know, don't you feel like by comparison, you know, what was happening on college campuses was no big deal or sort of quaint? And I'm like, absolutely not have a situation in which people can. I mean, something like 70% of students think their professors should be reported for offensive speech. And when they actually drilled down into what did they mean by offensive speech, it wasn't for sexually harassing students. It was for saying things like biological sex is real, or, you know, someone who actually would repeat the data of Roland Fryer, you know, from Harvard, who basically pointed out there isn't that much evidence that there's wildly disproportionate shootings of unarmed black people versus white people by police. And now, to be clear, Roland Fryer said, actually our overall take is that police shoot too many people in the United States, but that ultimately that disparity isn't there as much. They were basically saying the students themselves were being taught to police factual statements that in some cases are probably true.

[Joe Getty]

Right.

[Greg Lukianoff]

In order to. In order to achieve something, to protect their ears or something.

[Joe Getty]

Oh, yeah. Well, I think it's more than that. And if you don't mind, we need to take a quick break and follow up on that thought and talk about the philosophy that's driving a lot of what the college kids just think is, you know, outlawing hate speech and objectionable speech. But Greg Lukianoff of Fire. Greg, great to talk to you. Hang around just a couple minutes. We'll continue in moments.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Armstrong and Getty.

[Joe Getty]

We are midway through a conversation with Greg Lukianoff, the president and CEO of the foundation for Individual Rights and Expression and the author of many fine books and co author on that topic. Greg, thanks for hanging around. Really appreciate it.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Yeah, no, I'm always happy to.

[Joe Getty]

So, as I often point out on the show, I, Joe Getty, am the last thing I am is a conspiracy theorist. I'm somebody who's been studying political systems and political movements since I was literally a teenager. And it's the most fascinating subject on earth. And one thing that has really frustrated me is how few people understand that a lot of what we've been talking about, the censorship on campus, the microaggressions, the banning hate speech, quote, unquote, a lot of it is people who've bought the moral argument that that's what they should do. But it is driven by. And nobody talks about this. The critical theory crowd, the folks who are fans of Michel Foucault and Frantz Fanon, the French philosophers of the mid 20th century and into the 1970s. As I often say, they wrote books, they put their names on the spine, they explained exactly what they wanted to do, and it's exactly what we're witnessing. Any comment? Agree, disagree? Thoughts?

[Greg Lukianoff]

Oh, no, absolutely. Although I would actually go after, you know, because it's not a thinker. I have a lot of respect for Herbert Marcuse because Herbert Marcouz was a Marxist. He had to flee Germany when the Nazis took over. He lived in academia, I think at Brandeis and ucsd, I think UC San Diego. And he sort of was trying to sort of like reform Marxism because it turned out the proletariat didn't really like the intellectuals. So he kind of like remodeled it so that essentially it would be a combination of the intellectuals, the educated in the United States versus with what he very sensitively called ghetto populations against the right. He. He was incredibly clear that he thought there should be free speech for the left and not for the right. He couldn't have said it more primitively than he did in a essay called Repressive Tolerance. And that view that you can't really be equal if the bad guys are allowed free speech has taken over in a lot of spaces. Even when I was at school, even when I was in law school back in 97, I was running into this argument already and I was like, like I worked at the aclu. I grew up believing that free speech was like the defining sort of liberal characteristic. But unfortunately, we have this sort of terminological term where you have this kind of like much more typically old European style Frankfurt School left that is very hostile to free speech, but calls itself liberal. And so I personally think right now the center left and the center right have much more in common with each other than they do with their wings. And when you look at the data, we are the majority and then some. And we believe in freedom of speech. And we have to talk back to these people who don't realize that they're spouting Marcuse and Foucault and all these people who, by the way, people in their own lifetimes, like Habermas, who just died, did an incredible job of refuting. These weren't, in my opinion, particularly deep thinkers or good historians, but unfortunately we have a lot of people who think that the morality is on the side of the center.

[Joe Getty]

Greg, we only have about two minutes left. Let's jump to an action plan. Now, I support fire in every way I can, including financially. What's the most important thing everybody listening can do or things they can do to help fight for free speech?

[Greg Lukianoff]

You know, please find out more about us. But the most important thing you can do is to make it known that when someone gets in trouble for speech you personally disagree with, you do not think they should be fired, you do not think they should be arrested. You do not think and stand up for them unapologetically. Because that's the thing that brought people like me into this business. Seeing the ACLU stand up for the rights of them Nazis, you know, Jewish lawyers standing up for them, that was the most principled thing I'd ever even heard of in my entire life. And that's the kind of thing that gets people to understand that free speech belongs to everyone or it belongs to no one.

[Joe Getty]

Right here, here. You know, I grew up only a few miles from Skokie, Illinois, and following that drama, a gosh, a kid, teenager, whatever I was. And having my parents explain that principle to me, it gives me chills thinking about it because it was such a formative moment.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Yeah. My parents were both immigrants and I grew up in a neighborhood with a lot of immigrant kids. And the idea that our families fled countries where they didn't have freedom of speech and we were finally in a country that was so principled that people would even defend their enemies.

[Joe Getty]

Let's not give it up. Greg Lukianoff of fire. We'll have a link so you can find it easily enough in his books and that sort of [e-mail] Greg, it's always a pleasure. It's been too long. I hope we can do it again.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Absolutely.

[Katie Green]

All right.

[Joe Getty]

Thanks. Thanks. Greg lukianoff. Yeah, I seriously get so fired up about this stuff. I've threatened many times to get a First Amendment tattoo, but I don't want a tattoo at all. So I don't think that's going to happen. Coming up next hour, we will catch up on the situation in the Gulf, the Straits of Hormuz. We'll talk to Mike Lyons also. Oh, and I'm excited about this. If you were listening, I think it was two days ago during hour two of the show, we were talking about the miserable state of education in America, the public schools, the government schools, as I prefer to call them. And boy, did we get reaction from educators that the folks in the belly of the beast fighting against some of this stuff every day and their impressions about what's wrong with American government schools is. That's the testimony I think we all really need to hear. Right. So we're going to hit that next hour. Jack's going to be checking in from scenic Salina, Kansas, where he's visiting family and where our careers together got started, actually, many years ago. So I hope you can stay tuned. If you can't, you can always subscribe to the podcast and miss nothing. It downloads automatically if you subscribe. Armstrong and Getty on Demand.

[News Reporter]

Armstrong and Gettysburg.