We Are Free People. "Tim The Lawyer" Sandefur Talks to A&G.

Summary

Armstrong & Getty On Demand

Episode: "We Are Free People. 'Tim The Lawyer' Sandefur Talks to A&G."

Date: June 24, 2026
Host: iHeartPodcasts
Guest: Timothy Sandefur, author of Proclaiming Liberty: John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and the Declaration of Independence

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Armstrong & Getty welcome back Timothy Sandefur—affectionately known as “Tim the Lawyer”—to discuss his latest book, Proclaiming Liberty, and to explore what the American Founders truly believed about freedom, independence, and the origins of the United States. The conversation dives into the evolving public perception of the Founding, growing ideological polarization, the roots and resurgence of socialism, and the practical lessons the Declaration of Independence still holds for Americans today.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Contemporary Cynicism vs. Founding Principles

• Generational Shifts in Teaching About America

  • Getty laments that his children, unlike him, sometimes hear messages in school that paint America in a negative light.
  • Sandefur points to a more "militant left" and increased ideological intensity as a result of shrinking common-sense middle-ground in American culture.

    “I do think that there's a more militant left today. … The people who stay in the Democratic and Republican parties…are getting more and more ideologically intense precisely because their numbers are shrinking.” — Sandefur (04:36)

• Historic Context: Not All Was Rosy in '76

  • Sandefur reminds listeners that 1976 was also a time of malaise post-Watergate and Vietnam; the present sense of national unease is not unprecedented, and America has persisted through worse crises (e.g., the Civil War).

    “Americans have always faced these kinds of challenges, and some of them have been even much worse than what we're facing right now.” — Sandefur (03:21)

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2. The Appeal and Dangers of Socialism and Collectivism

• Human Nature and the Temptation of Collectivism

  • Getty and Sandefur discuss why collectivist and socialist ideologies are perennially attractive, rooted in “envy” and “fear of responsibility.”

    “Combine those two things, the fear of responsibility and envy, and you put those together and what do you have? You have socialism.” — Sandefur (05:40)

• Cultural Rewarding of Immaturity

  • Sandefur warns that as society celebrates immaturity, both intellectual and personal, the draw of systems that promise to remove responsibility will grow.

• Pendulum Swings in Politics

  • Sandefur notes that extreme interest in socialism is not new—recalling the 1930s—or even more pronounced than past periods; he predicts a pendulum swing back toward reason.

    “…the pendulum is going to swing back eventually as people have enough of this anti intellectual nonsense that's been controlling our politics for a decade now.” — Sandefur (06:53)

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3. The Founders’ Fears and the True Break with Britain

• What the Founders Fought Against

  • Unlike today, their battle was not with socialism per se, but with notions of unchecked parliamentary power.

    “The king was their executive branch, but their legislative branch was their local legislature. All of a sudden, Parliament says…we have absolute power. And the Americans said, ‘this is a terrible idea.’” — Sandefur (08:22)

• The Founders’ Economic Philosophy

  • Sandefur highlights that redistributive ideas pre-date Marx, and that both Adams and Jefferson saw forced redistribution as “committing injustice and destroying people's will to work.”

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4. Alternative History: If America Had Lost Its Revolution

• What If the Revolution Failed?
  • Sandefur speculates America under continued British rule might resemble today’s Canada—a country with lingering constitutional ambiguities and more fertile ground for the growth of socialism.

    “…socialism really becomes a parasite on all of that. … I hate to say it: more like Canada.” — Sandefur (10:19)

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5. Learning from the Declaration: The “Grievances” and Underlying Principles

• Going Beyond the Opening Paragraphs

  • Sandefur argues Americans—public and scholars alike—often gloss over the list of grievances in the Declaration.

    “There's this long list of grievances there, and then each one is phrased in broad terms. … I wanted to go through the whole list and explain what each one is talking about.” — Sandefur (16:13)

• Hidden Meanings and Deliberate Rebuttals

  • He points to overlooked language, such as “of right ought to be free and independent states,” as a direct rebuttal to British claims in the Declaratory Act.

    “In the Declaration, the American Founders are slapping back at Parliament. They're saying, no, of right. We are free people and we don't owe you any allegiance.” — Sandefur (17:10)

• Natural Rights Are Real, Not Relative

  • Sandefur insists that the Declaration’s philosophical claims about equality and rights are not just American cultural inventions but “literally true”—a stand against modern-day relativism.

    “It is absolutely the truth that they are endowed with inalienable rights like life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness. These are not just things that we've chosen to believe … as many of today's relativists like to claim.” — Sandefur (17:56)

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6. The Personal Responsibility at the Heart of American Liberty

• Freedom by Necessity
  • Sandefur paraphrases existentialists:

    “We are condemned to be free. Well, I wouldn't say condemned, but we definitely are inherently free because we are self-responsible. Nobody else can eat for me, nobody else can breathe for me, and nobody else can think for me.” — Sandefur (18:40)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I think what's happening is that the broad middle of common sense people are abandoning the typical left/right dimension. … as the number of independents expands.” — Sandefur (04:00)
• “The problem is, maturity means paying your own bills and nobody wants to face that.” — Sandefur (05:48)
• “Socialist ideas had been around since the days of ancient Greece. … They ridiculed the idea.” — Sandefur (07:42)
• “If you end up in a backyard barbecue and somebody starts throwing around some anti-American crap, you got something to say back.” — Getty (11:08)
• “What I wanted to do in the book is … go through the Declaration line by line and say what all [the grievances] mean.” — Sandefur (12:37)
• “We are inherently responsible for ourselves. … That's what it means when we say that all people are equally free.” — Sandefur (18:47)
• “They should establish some sort of founding laureate and some president should make you that person to go around to universities and high schools and teach him this stuff.” — Getty (19:31)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Setting the Stage: 01:13–02:10
• Education & Ideological Shifts: 02:10–05:20
• Socialism, Human Nature, & Pendulum Theory: 05:20–07:00
• Founders vs. Parliament—Roots of Independence: 07:17–09:49
• Speculating on a Lost Revolution: 09:49–11:03
• On Fighting Back Against Modern Relativism: 11:03–12:25, 16:00–19:00
• Line-by-Line Analysis of Declaration (book focus): 12:37–13:00, 16:13–18:29
• Existential Responsibility & Individual Freedom: 18:29–19:23

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Conclusion

Timothy Sandefur and Armstrong & Getty have a wide-ranging, candid discussion about the continuing relevance—and misunderstanding—of America’s founding ideals in both classrooms and society at large. Sandefur’s book is promoted not just as history, but as a toolkit for everyday Americans to defend and articulate the philosophical case for liberty, personal responsibility, and the Declaration’s persistent power.

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Recommended Reading:
Proclaiming Liberty: John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and the Declaration of Independence by Timothy Sandefur

Memorable Moment:
“George Will once called you a national treasure … they should establish some sort of founding laureate and some president should make you that person to go around to universities and high schools and teach him this stuff.” — Getty (19:31)

Transcript

[Armstrong]

This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human

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[Getty]

Broadcasting live from the Abraham Lincoln radio

[Timothy Sandifer]

studio at the George Washington Broadcast Center,

[Armstrong]

Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty.

[Getty]

Armstrong and Getty.

[Timothy Sandifer]

And now here's Armstrong and get.

[Getty]

A handful of. America, hate and socialists won congressional primaries yesterday, which will factor into some of my questions for our next guest. If you read one book about the founding of this great country leading up to the 250th anniversary on July 4, it should be Timothy Sandifer's Proclaiming Liberty, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and the Declaration of Independence. Absolutely fantastic. And we welcome back who we used to call Tim the Lawyer Tim Sandifer to the Armstrong and Getty Show. Hey, Tim.

[Timothy Sandifer]

Hey, Jack. Thanks for having me back.

[Getty]

I'm in a mood for a variety of reasons. My son was complaining about some things they had been teaching him in school. You know, we had. If you're of a certain age, you kind of just assumed the, the, the American exceptionalism, the wonder of the founding, all the great things that came out of establishing this, this Project 250.

[Timothy Sandifer]

Sorry, Jack. You think that would be taught in a California public school? What in the world made you think that that would be taught in the schools of California?

[Getty]

I used to think that. And then, and then I became aware that, you know, whether it's Neo Marxist or whatever's going on, and then, you know, the 1619 Project comes along and the fact that at the 250th birthday of our country, I'm old, so I was 11 during the bicentennial. And at least for my, you know, I wasn't reading the op ed pages of the New York Times, but I don't remember anything but happiness and gratitude.

[Armstrong]

Now.

[Getty]

It's as if the whole idea of America is up for debate in the op ed sections of all your major newspapers about the founding of this country. And I'd like you to push back on that a little.

[Timothy Sandifer]

Well, you know, I think part of that was maybe you were seeing 1976 through a child's lenses. Remember, this is the post Watergate era. And, you know, other people who were around at the time have told me that it was not as fun as it should have been, and that there was a lingering sense of disappointment and even some nihilism over the end of the Vietnam War and things like that. So, you know, Americans have always faced these kinds of challenges, and some of them have been even much worse than what we're facing right now. I mean, it's hard to imagine that today we're worse off than the country was in 1861, for example. So we've seen tough times. We've seen times when America's enemies have been on the ascent, and we fought back against that. Now, the problem that we face that I think is unique, is that we fought back against that with a group of people who really understood and appreciated America's ideals. And I think that is missing on the right today. And, and that's why the left is succeeding through default.

[Getty]

Ah, that's interesting. Yeah, well, everything you said there is true, but I also don't remember ever being told that we were a bad country at any point. Through my K through 12 schooling, which my kids do get sometimes.

[Timothy Sandifer]

Yeah, I, I, I do think that there's a more more militant left today. And I think part of that is that, you know, the teachers of today are the, were the students of the previous generation. And so they've learned from people who were already on the left, and the left has gotten much more intensified. And the same is true on the right also. I think what's happening is that the broad middle of common sense people are abandoning the typical left right dimension. And as a result, those who remain in those categories, the people who stay in the Democratic and Republican parties, I think they're getting more and more ideologically intense precisely because their numbers are shrinking as the number of independence expands.

[Getty]

Well, this move towards socialism by part of the crowd and the what did Zoran Mamdani say? The warm embrace of collectivism? Is it that? Is there something to human nature where we don't want freedom and want to be taken care of that we need to push back against?

[Timothy Sandifer]

Yeah. Oh my goodness. Even I sometimes long for the days of my childhood when all of my bills were paid for by my parents and I didn't have to worry about responsibility. Of course everybody and everybody feels envy from time to time. And you combine those two things, the fear of responsibility and envy, and you put those together and what do you have? You have socialism. So of course people are attracted to that. And the problem is maturity means paying your own bills and nobody wants to face that. And so as our culture rewards immaturity, intellectual as well as personal immaturity, more and more you're going to see things like this. But once again, I have to say it's not worse today than it was in say 1932. In the 1930s there was a socialist governor of Minnesota. And socialism was viewed as the way of the future, both by right and left because you know, the reality of the Soviet experience and things had not really been publicized very much and things like that. So, you know, it is true that you can be pessimistic about the current environment or you can say we're going through a pendulum swing right now. And I think the pendulum is going to swing back eventually as people have enough of this anti intellectual nonsense that's been controlling our politics for a decade now.

[Getty]

True. We've had presidential candidates get more traction as socialists 100 years ago, 120 years ago, than we are getting now. So that is a good point. Although we jailed them at the time.

[Timothy Sandifer]

Yes. So I'm by the way in favor of jailing presidential candidates on principle.

[Getty]

Yeah, Anybody who wants to be president you should look side eyed at. What are they up to? Your book Proclaiming Liberty. So the Founding Fathers were not worried about. Well, certainly the term socialism wasn't. Marx wasn't born yet or was he born? He hadn't written yet. What were the founding fathers pushing back against?

[Timothy Sandifer]

Well, you know, it's funny because it's true that the term socialism wasn't around. It's true Karl Marx wasn't around. But socialist ideas had been around since the days of ancient Greece. Right. You find it in the writings of Plato, for example. And the Founding Fathers were horrified by it and they thought it was very obviously ridiculous that if you took wealth from people who earned it and gave it to people who did not, thinking that what you're doing is justice. What you're actually doing is committing injustice and destroying people's will to work hard and improve the world. So they ridiculed the idea. Adams and Jefferson alike and all their colleagues. What they were pushing back against in the 1770s, however, was somewhat different. Beginning in about 1764, Parliament came up with this notion that it had the authority to control the colonies, that it could legislate for the colonies, not just tax, but also impose other kinds of laws on the colonies. And to the Americans, this was crazy. They had lived for 150 years in the American colonies with the view that their laws were written by their local legislatures, by their colonial legislatures. Everybody agreed that you look up to the king. The king is kind of like what we have with our president today. The king was their executive branch, but their legislative branch was their local legislature. And all of a sudden, Parliament says, no, no, Parliament has. This is a, quote, parliament, supreme, absolute, unlimited authority to do everything that is not naturally impossible, which means that they have absolute power. And the Americans said, this is a terrible idea. And they opposed it for, you know, a decade or a dozen years. And they did that through debate and political protest and legal machinations and politics, until finally it became clear that the king was siding with parliament in that dispute. And it was that moment at the beginning of 1776 that the Americans finally said, fine, then we don't want to have any part of the British empire anymore. We are abandoning our claims to the traditional rights of Englishmen in the British constitution, and we are asserting our rights on the basis of the laws of nature and of nature's God.

[Getty]

What do you think would have happened if we lost the revolutionary war?

[Timothy Sandifer]

You know, I think the war was inevitable. I think a lot of people thought it was inevitable. Thomas Paine says in common sense, look, we all agree that America will be independent someday. The question is just when, you know. So I think that it would have happened eventually, but I do think there would have been a lot of mess about it. By what? By which I mean, you know, you look at British politics today and see how they are torn between this extreme democracy on one hand and this anti democracy on the other hand. And there nobody really can definitively say what the British constitution is because it's unwritten. And there's these bizarre traditions and hierarchies that you have to jump through. And then socialism really becomes a parasite on all of that. And I think America would have suffered a lot more as a result of those sorts of ideas. And, you know, America today is really the product of two other big things, and that's the Western experience and the Civil War. And both of those would have been drastically different if the British Empire had controlled America up, you know, any longer. So it's hard to say, but I do think we'd be. I hate to say it more like Canada.

[Getty]

Wow. I really mean it when I say that if you read one book, or please read at least one book leading up to the founding or this summer about the Founding, Proclaiming Liberty by Tim Sandiford, just because it helps you make arguments, if you end up in a backyard barbecue and somebody starts throwing around some anti American crap, you got something to say back? Because it's just way too pervasive in our society right now and apparently comfortable to say that the founding was about racism or that the world would be better off without our push, you know, dominance and all these things, and just

[Timothy Sandifer]

drives me crazy, you know, Jack, I say, I must say I had a number of scores to settle in this book, but I'd been. I had been storing them away for decades whenever I'd read something about the Founding or the Declaration or something, and I was like, that's wrong. I was making a mental list and I put that mental list into this book. So.

[Getty]

Fantastic. That is fantastic. Well, we need more of that. God, if you, if you stood up in front of most public school history classes in this country and, and, and give your little spiel about your book, the. The teacher in the back of the room would, would be. They'd be rolling their eyes with horror at what you were saying. How crazy is that?

[Timothy Sandifer]

Yeah. However, I will say, when I was in school, when I was a kid in school, my teachers were already rolling their eyes in horror at the things that I said because I was already committed to freedom.

[Getty]

Right.

[Timothy Sandifer]

And they didn't like that much. Look, so my. What I wanted to do in the book is I wanted to go through the Declaration line by line and say what all. Because, you know, we're very familiar with the. The opening paragraphs about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But there's the list of grievances against what Britain was doing to us. And a lot of Americans today don't know what specifically it refers to because it's written in broad general terms. So I wanted to.

[Getty]

Let's, let's touch on that when we come back after the break if we can, because I want to get into that part of the Proclaiming liberty. Tim's book. This is important stuff. Be able to argue with your college kid when they come back home or your neighbors who are socialists or whatever it is. Learn a little from Tim Sandifer in his book Proclaiming Liberty. A little more when we come back. Armstrong and Getty here For hims, there are all kinds of great weight loss approaches that fit into your world. Out there, they've got them at hims with a wide range of affordable GLP1 options. You've got weight loss goals, but hitting them is another story. Check out Weight Loss by hims. It's designed to support you in losing the weight and keeping it off. And Hims now offers access to an affordable range of FDA approved GLP1 medications, including the Wegovy pill and the Wegovy Pen. Through hims, everything happens online. You'll connect with a licensed provider who will determine if treatment's right for you and then if prescribed, your medication is delivered right to your door. No insurance necessary. Ready to reach your goals? Visit himss.comarmstrong to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you. That's H I M S.com Armstrong hims.com/armstrong Weight loss by HIMS is not available in all 50 states. WeGovy is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk as to get started and learn more, including important safety information, WeGovy clinical study information and restrictions, visit HIMSS.com this

[America 250 Announcer]

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[Armstrong]

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[Armstrong]

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[Getty]

summer or actually anytime in our history. But with the 250th anniversary coming up, the book is Proclaiming Liberty by Timothy Sandifer. Tim joins us. We're talking about the repainting of the reflecting pool today. No, no, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about his book and the founding and why it's important to understand it in a way that they don't teach you in school necessarily. I was looking at the dedication, though, you got for Harry Joffa, who I'm aware of. I'm not aware of Roger Pilon.

[Timothy Sandifer]

Yes, he's at the Cato Institute.

[Getty]

Okay, cool, great. But then what is that foreign language thing you Got underneath there.

[Timothy Sandifer]

Oh. So it's a line from a play by a playwright named Terrence Ratigan. It's a play called the Browning Version, and it's a story about a teacher who's having a bad time. And during the climactic scene of the play, his student gives him a book with this line inscribed in it, which means something to the effect of, God looks kindly upon a good master, and it is a reward to the teacher for all that he's done. And Jaffa and Pilon taught me so much about the Declaration and the American Founding that I thought it was an apt quotation to use.

[Getty]

That's awesome. So right before we took a break, you were explaining what the Declaration of Independence meant, the part that you think most people don't get.

[Timothy Sandifer]

Yeah. Well, there's this long list of grievances there, and then each one is phrased in broad terms. The founders, by 1776, the founding fathers were done listing their specific objections to what Britain was doing. They had done that for a dozen years already, and nobody had listened to them. So by 1776, they're just going to say, here's what you've been doing to us. Boom, boom, boom, boom. And as a result, today we look at things like, he has refused his assent to laws the most wholesome and necessary for the public good, and we don't know what laws specifically they're referring to. And so I wanted to go through the whole list and explain what each one is talking about. And there's also other language in the Declaration that has been overlooked, not only by the public, but by scholars. For example, in the very end of the Declaration, it says, these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states. And that phrase of right ought to be is kind of interesting. Why is that in there? Right. It turns out that in 1766, a decade before, Parliament had passed a law called the Declaratory act, in which it said that Parliament had complete authority over the American colonies. And the phrase it used was, parliament has, and of right ought to have a full authority to legislate for the American colonies in all cases whatsoever. And so in the Declaration, the American Founders are slapping back at Parliament. They're saying, no, of right. We are free people and we don't owe you any allegiance. So I wanted to go through all these little tidbits that I think are overlooked sometimes, both by scholars and by ordinary Americans who are very familiar with the philosophy. I do talk about the philosophy. I think the philosophical aspects of the Declaration are not Only important, but literally true. It is a literal fact of the world that all men are created equal. It is absolutely the truth that they are endowed with inalienable rights like life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness. These are not just, you know, things that we've chosen to believe in this society as opposed to some other society, as many today's relativists like to claim. And so I do want to go through all that, but I also didn't want to just be a dry philosophical book. So I also talk about all of this in the context of the friendship between Thomas Jefferson and John Adams as they were working and writing the Declaration.

[Getty]

Yeah. And so that's the idea that we're all personally free as opposed to we're subjects of the state, whether it's a king or a collective us like socialism.

[Timothy Sandifer]

Yeah, well, I mean, we are inherently responsible for ourselves. There's nothing we can do about that fact. The existentialists back in the 1960s used to use this phrase. They used to say we are condemned to be free. Well, I wouldn't say condemned, but we definitely are inherently free because we are self responsible. Nobody else can eat for me, nobody else can breathe for me, and nobody else can think for me. And although I might point a gun at somebody's head and force them to pay my bills, that's not a just thing to do. That's not taking responsibility for myself. And everybody has this sense of self responsibility and that means everybody has the right to make decisions for their own lives. That's what it means when we say that all people are equally free.

[Getty]

Hey, we're out of time, Tim. And I just wanted to mention this. So George Will once called you a national treasure, which I think is absolutely true. I think that, you know, like we have a poet laureate, they should establish some sort of founding laureate and some president should make you that person to go around to universities and high schools and teach him this stuff. That's what I think we should do.

[Timothy Sandifer]

I would be happy to serve.

[Getty]

Oh, and you'd be so good at it. The book is Proclaiming Liberty. Timothy Sandifer, always happy to have you on, Tim. Thanks for your time today,

[Armstrong]

Armstrong and Getty.

[America 250 Announcer]

This July 4th, come celebrate at America's Block Party hosted by America 250. America's Block Party is a can't miss 4th of July concert happening at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum.

[Armstrong]

It's the experience. Music, performances by major artists, patriotic tributes, and the kickoff to giving 4th, helping to make July 4th the largest day of giving in American history.

[America 250 Announcer]

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[Armstrong]

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