We Will Not Coddle Your Mind. Greg Lukianoff Talks to A&G (2018)

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: Armstrong & Getty On Demand

Episode: "We Will Not Coddle Your Mind. Greg Lukianoff Talks to A&G"

Original Air Date: September 19, 2025
Guest: Greg Lukianoff
Hosts: Armstrong & Getty

---

Episode Overview

This episode centers on a probing conversation with Greg Lukianoff, co-author (with Jonathan Haidt) of The Coddling of the American Mind. Lukianoff and the hosts dissect how cultural shifts, parenting trends, and college campus climates have led to the widespread “coddling” of young Americans’ minds, undermining their intellectual resilience and emotional health. The discussion unpacks the origins, consequences, and possible solutions to this phenomenon, with a focus on generational anxiety, free speech, psychological insights, and the societal risks of insulating people from discomfort.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins of “Coddling” on Campus

[03:50–04:59]

• Lukianoff describes a dramatic shift beginning around 2013–2014:
  "For my entire career, the best constituency for freedom of speech were the students themselves. And then sometime around 2013, 2014, we saw this sort of uprising of students demanding that people be disinvited." [04:25, Greg Lukianoff]
• Students started advocating for new speech codes, disinvitations, and firings over protected speech, often citing trauma and psychological harm.

2. The Pathologizing of Discomfort

[04:59–07:56]

• The shift isn’t just about speech; it's about how discomfort is medicalized: "I was also noticing… this medicalization of the reasons for why they were demanding that speakers not be invited—talked about things like PTSD and trauma… That's not the way a psychologist would actually approach it." [04:40, Greg Lukianoff]
• Lukianoff draws on his own experience with cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), explaining how young people are being taught the same cognitive distortions that therapy aims to un-teach.
• The cultural narrative instructs students to be more fearful than necessary and expect lasting damage from words or minor slights.

3. Cognitive Distortions and Their Spread

[06:21–08:32]

• Armstrong recalls that the original article observed: "we are actually teaching mental illness, for instance, you know, catastrophizing the smallest of negative incidents." [05:54, Armstrong]
• Lukianoff elaborates: "Those are called cognitive distortions… what's so amazing about CBT is if you just get in the habit of talking back to some of our exaggerated voices… you can really help yourself battle back depression and anxiety." [06:21, Greg Lukianoff]
• Students are, paradoxically, being trained in the very habits that CBT seeks to correct.

4. The Role of Parenting and Culture

[08:59–12:28]

• The problem of "paranoid parenting" and the elimination of unstructured, free play are major contributors.
• "We looked back…and it looked more like these are things that are partially coming…from our generation of parents as well." [08:59, Greg Lukianoff]
• Overprotection, legal fears, and risk-aversion shape children into adults who overestimate threats and lack resilience.
• "So many different ways we're being attacked for doing anything…slight bit edgy… No wonder we're frightened of the slightest discomfort." [12:11, Getty]

5. The College Administrative Response and Bureaucratization

[12:28–14:53]

• Lukianoff points to university bureaucracy and legal risk-aversion as amplifiers of this culture.
• "At universities, sort of over-bureaucratization, but also rightful and understandable concerns about lawsuits is one of the things that causes this really exaggerated, 'Oh my God, we're all in tremendous danger' sense." [12:28, Greg Lukianoff]

6. Echo Chambers and Ideological Homogenization

[14:53–15:52]

• Campus echo chambers deepen polarization:
  "Once you create echo chamber, things get much more intense. You have more polarization, people get more radical… instead of a real discussion, it can really spiral out of control quickly." [14:53, Greg Lukianoff]
• Armstrong notes the difference between intelligence and wisdom, wondering why even smart people buy into these trends.

7. The Chicago Statement & Pushback

[18:56–19:45]

• There's hope: Some universities, notably the University of Chicago, have adopted the "Chicago Statement," which robustly defends academic freedom and free speech. "University of Chicago is definitely one of the schools that's trying to push back… So far, the good news is that about close to 40 different schools across the country have adopted some version of the Chicago Statement." [18:56, Greg Lukianoff]

8. Social Media and Societal Sorting

[20:29–21:21]

• Social and residential "sorting" means people rarely encounter genuinely opposing views, which social media exacerbates.
• Lukianoff is cautiously optimistic: "My hope is that social media is like living in a brand new city… we're all wandering around and we're really messing it up… My hope is that we'll get better and smarter about culturally dealing with living in a society where we actually have to fight to have exposure to ideas that challenge us." [20:29, Greg Lukianoff]

9. The Historical “Normalcy” of Intolerance

[21:58–23:21]

• Lukianoff places the current moment into historical context: "The way we treat dissenters is we make them drink hemlock, we kick them out of our communities, we chop off their heads… This is history normal as we're tribal and we get rid of people who disagree. But one of the greatest inventions we've ever come up with as a species is, oh my God, what if I actually listen to the people who I really dislike?" [21:58, Greg Lukianoff]
• He warns against reverting to this “normal” and stresses the importance of distinguishing between violent actions and offensive speech.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the speed of cultural change on campus:
  "The shift seemed to happen overnight." — Greg Lukianoff [04:24]

• On cognitive distortions:
  "We are actually teaching mental illness…catastrophizing the smallest of negative incidents." — Armstrong [05:54]

• On the dangers of overprotective parenting:
  "There can actually be downsides to being obsessed with both the physical and more particularly the emotional, quote, unquote, safety of your kids." — Greg Lukianoff [11:00]

• On echo chambers:
  "If you end up in a group where everybody's just saying…yeah, and you don't go far enough…instead of having a real discussion, it can really spiral out of control quickly." — Greg Lukianoff [15:14]

• On freedom of speech as an invented social technology:
  "These aren't new ideas. These are very, very old bad ideas… it's also one of the best inventions we've ever come up with." — Greg Lukianoff [22:37]

• On historical context:
  "Every last one of us should be executed in the eye of someone either currently living in the world right now or somewhere in history." — Greg Lukianoff [23:10]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:50–04:59: Origins of campus “coddling” and student demands for protection
• 06:21–07:56: How CBT relates to the mental habits taught to students
• 08:59–12:28: Parenting’s role, risk-aversion, and the decline of free play
• 12:28–14:53: Bureaucratization and administrative incentives on campuses
• 14:53–15:52: Echo chambers and increasing ideological conformity
• 18:56–19:45: The Chicago Statement & campus free speech
• 20:29–21:21: Social-/media-induced sorting and challenges to open discourse
• 21:58–23:21: Historical normalcy versus the invention of open dissent

---

Episode Tone & Style

The conversation is lively, earnest, and occasionally self-deprecating—hosts regularly acknowledge their own roles in the phenomena discussed. Lukianoff’s contributions are thoughtful, weaving personal anecdotes, psychological research, and historical perspective together. The tone is inviting, sometimes wry, and conveys both concern and cautious optimism.

---

Conclusion

This episode offers a compelling, accessible entry point into the core thesis of The Coddling of the American Mind: that well-intentioned efforts to protect young people from discomfort have gone too far, paradoxically increasing their vulnerability and stifling open discourse. Both the hosts and Lukianoff frequently stress that these issues are not about simple blame, but the result of complex societal currents—parenting trends, bureaucratic incentives, cultural anxieties, and the dynamics of modern media. They call for renewed attention to the value of free speech, exposure to dissent, and the cultivation of psychological resilience in the next generation.

---

Transcript

[Tristan Redman]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[TiVo Advertiser]

Stop settling for weak sound.

[Greg Lukianoff]

It's time to level up your game and bring the boom.

[TiVo Advertiser]

Hit the town with the ultra durable LG X Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go. Elevate your listening experience to new heights because let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG X Boom and for a limited time, save [e-mail] with code Fall25 Bring.

[Greg Lukianoff]

The Boom Xboom.

[Annabe Sofas Advertiser]

Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets and kids. But with Anabe, you never have to stress about Messes again. @washablesofas.com Discover Annabe Sofas the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out starting at just $699. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, Our sofas feature changeable fabric covers allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly. Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Cynthia Littleton]

There's a lot going on in Hollywood. How are you supposed to stay on top of it all? Variety has the solution. Take 20 minutes out of your day and listen to the new daily Variety podcast for breaking entertainment news and expert perspectives.

[LG X Boom Advertiser]

Where do you see the business actually heading?

[Cynthia Littleton]

Featuring the iconic journalists of Variety and hosted by co Editor in Chief Cynthia Littleton.

[Greg Lukianoff]

The only constant in Hollywood is change.

[Cynthia Littleton]

Your free iHeartRadio app, search Daily Variety and listen now.

[TiVo Advertiser]

Over 300 channels, zero bills. That's TiVo. Plus live news, reality movies and more. No credit card, no signups available on smart TVs powered by TiVo. Grab the remote, press play and start watching TiVo free. Binge worthy. Always on.

[Asma Khalid]

Learn more at TiVo.com America is changing and so is the world.

[Tristan Redman]

But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Asma Khalid]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Tristan Redman]

Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global story.

[Asma Khalid]

Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Tristan Redman]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Armstrong]

Meanwhile, if I might take the conversation to a higher plane, it's a pleasure to welcome back to the Armstrong and Getty show after too long an absence, Greg Lukianoff on author, along with Jonathan Haidt of the Coddling of the American Mind and a book length extension examination of their terrific, groundbreaking Atlantic article of a couple of months ago, or a couple of years ago, rather. Greg is also, I believe, one of the founders of fire Defending individual rights in Higher education joins us now. Hello, Greg. How are you, sir?

[Greg Lukianoff]

It's great to be back. Thank you.

[Getty]

How long ago was that Atlantic article?

[Greg Lukianoff]

It was 2015. It was the summer of 2015. Wow.

[Getty]

Well, you didn't turn things around with that article because things are worse now than they were. Well, hey, hey, hey.

[Armstrong]

You have to slow the ship before you turn it.

[Getty]

Yeah.

[Greg Lukianoff]

By the way, we decided to write the book is things got so much crazier after we wrote the article. We were like, ooh, okay, I think we have to go a little deeper into that. Yeah.

[Getty]

Okay.

[Armstrong]

A couple of quick notes before we dive into it in depth. Greg. Number one, I am proudly sending my youngest to university that gets a green light from fire for communication. And I thank you for furnishing that resource. Secondly, as I was googling your book and typed simply the cod, your book came up immediately instead of that delicious fish.

[Greg Lukianoff]

That is a delicious fish.

[Armstrong]

It is getting some attention, thank God. So let's talk about the coddling of the American mind, specifically young minds, and the damage that's being done. What led us to where we are now?

[Greg Lukianoff]

Well, the whole book is trying to figure out what exactly happened around 2013, 2014. And my simple perspect is I started working on campuses back in 2001, and for my entire career, the best constituency for freedom of speech were the students themselves. And then sometime around 2013, 2014, we saw this sort of uprising of students demanding that people be disinvited. They were actually demanding new speech codes. Sometimes they were demanding professors and administrators are fired for what they said, even if it's clearly protected speech. And this was a really. The shift seemed to happen overnight. And one of the reasons why I started talking to John Haidt about this was because I was also noticing that it was kind of like this medicalization of the reasons for why they were demanding that speakers not be invited that talked about things like PTSD and trauma. But in a way that I know enough about psychology just from being kind of a hobbyist to be like that. Doesn't really sound quite right. That isn't the way I think a psychologist would actually approach it. So the original book was, the original article was trying to say, listen, if we're wondering why what's going on on campus, we should be aware of the fact that we're teaching a generation the intellectual hab of anxious and depressed people. And the book really takes that further. It goes much deeper into the data. The data now actually really firmly represents the fact that we are dealing with a very serious mental health problem on campus. But we also add to that, you know, don't teach a generation the habits of depressed and anxious people, but also don't teach them the habits of polarized people.

[Armstrong]

Well, and that was the section of the article that, you know, and I've read it several times that stuck so firmly in my mind that we are actually teaching mental illness, for instance, you know, catastrophizing the smallest of negative incidents or being sure that everyone's against me or I'm sure you have the list of, you know, anxiety provoking tendencies at ready. Tell us more about that.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Yeah, those are called cognitive distortions. And I know about this from a very personal angle. I actually give some very personal details in this book that I realized after I'd written them. I hadn't even told my, you know, my wife and family about some of them. But I used to go through really bad bouts of depression and I learned about cognitive behavioral therapy, which is one of the most effective non drug interventions you can have for anxiety and depression. And what it is, and it's kind of amazing, it's just looking at those kind of crazy voices that we all have in our heads that, you know, like when you go on a date and it doesn't go well and you say to yourself, I'm going to die alone. Anxious and depressed people do a lot more of that, unsurprisingly. And what's so amazing about CBT is if you just get in the habit of talking back to some of our exaggerated voices in your head, and it worked wonders for me, you can really help yourself battle back depression and anxiety. The book talks about how we seem to be telling. And the book opens up with sort of a story about going to the world's worst guru and he gives you all sorts of terrible advice. And the premise has always been that it's almost like we're taking the worst advice you could possibly give to young people or any people, and we're giving it to a generation as if it's good advice.

[Getty]

Yeah. That's really interesting because you're right about that way to approach that, because I've. I've tried to do that in my life. Sometimes when I'm really anxious and worried, I think, is there anything actually bad happening? No, there's nothing actually bad happening. But our college campuses are telling kids there is something very bad happening, which is weird.

[Armstrong]

Constantly.

[Getty]

Yeah, constantly.

[Greg Lukianoff]

And that there'll be damage forever for it. We actually. One of the chapters, we give the sort of the thought experiment of going into a college psychologist office and them asking you. You're saying, you listen, doc, I feel anxious and depressed. And the doctor just being, oh, my God, that must mean you're in great danger. We need to help you figure out a place to hide. And so instead of trying to get these sort of anxieties to sort of calm down a little bit and learn to be sort of, like, more rational in our approaches, we're doing a generation. And this is, to be clear, this is something we're doing to a generation. I'm not blaming the students themselves for this.

[Getty]

Good point.

[Greg Lukianoff]

That we're telling them that you need to be much more frightened than you actually need to be, that you're in much greater threat than you need to be, and that people are basically all out to get you.

[Getty]

Well, that's interesting, because it'd be bad advice. Even if it were 1968 and, like, things were crazy and dangerous, it'd be a bad thing to say. You need to focus on these negative things and not overcome them, even if.

[LG X Boom Advertiser]

There were bad things.

[Getty]

But there are no bad things. It's never been a more comfortable, safe time to be on a college campus. And they're convincing them to be terrified.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Well, no. And that's one thing we really changed in the book, is we started looking at the bigger picture because we were thinking that campuses were sort of inculcating these bad ideas. But we looked back and we looked into the research, and it looked more like these are things that are partially coming, unfortunately, from our generation of parents as well. So two of my favorite chapters in the whole book are actually about paranoid parenting and the elimination of free play, which sound like they wouldn't be at all related to campus free speech issues.

[Getty]

Oh, they're absolutely related.

[Armstrong]

Of course they are. Yeah. Sorry. We think about this stuff a lot.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Of ways to make a generation of students who feel like they don't really have control over their lives and that they're more vulnerable than they actually are. And if you believe that, then, sure, having this speaker on campus could harm you for life.

[Getty]

Right.

[Armstrong]

You know, I do not want to turn this at all political because then I think people tend to close their ears and turn off their minds. But there is undeniably a political use to it. I mean, H.L. mencken has some absolutely wonderful quotes about politics being the art of frightening the populace with various bugaboos, most of which do not exist. And I think in such a comfortable and prosperous time, well, again, it's politically very useful to frighten people on all sides of the political. Well, all sides. You can't have all, you know, everywhere along the political spectrum.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Yeah. Well, I'm reading Yuval Harari's new book, which he had the temerity to come out with his book the same day that we. That we did. But he talks about how this is sort of a tactic for keeping people sort of under your thumb too. It's just keep everybody scared and you can get away with whatever you want.

[Armstrong]

Yeah. Greg Lukianoff is the author, along with John Haidt, of the Coddling of the American Mind on that theme.

[Getty]

I kind of wish that was what was going on because I think it'd be easier to combat. But obviously we're not doing that as parents. We're not trying to scare our children for some political end. There's something weird in our culture about thinking we're all going to be immortal or something.

[Greg Lukianoff]

That's why we call them problems of progress. I tend to think that there are some kind of predictable outcomes that you would see as we have kind of like more free time, as we have more resources and we're less afraid of dying of the plague. We're able to move on to sort of next level things. And, you know, I have two kids under three, believe me, and I try to say this on every interview, I get the instinct to protect the living hell out of your kids and to do it at a level that might and that you have to kind of rein that in. But the problem is for, you know, a good 20 years now, there hasn't been a lot of people saying, listen, by the way, there can actually be downsides to being obsessed with both the physical and more particularly the emotional, quote, unquote, safety of your kids. There can actually be consequences to that. And finally, people like Julie Lythgott Haymes, who wrote a called how to Raise an Adult and we interview in the book, or Lenore Skenazy, the famous free range mom, are helping bring attention to the idea that, yes, there is a downside to this style of parenting.

[Getty]

I Took, you know, it's so. It's so in our culture. I took my son to the playground over the weekend at his school. He likes it when I take him to his school so he can play on the monkey bars the way he wants to on the weekend. He can climb up on top of him and stuff. He can't do that during the school hours because they won't let him.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Him.

[Getty]

So I mean, we've got all these so many different ways we're being attacked for doing anything. The slight bit edgy starting when we're. From when we're really young. No wonder we're, you know, frightened of the slightest discomfort.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Yeah. And that also, unfortunately has to do with my chosen profession, which tend to ruin everything. Lawyers, we have a whole chapter on how at universities sort of over bureaucratization, but also rightful and understandable concerns about lawsuits is one of the things that causes this really exaggerated. Oh, my God, we're all in tremendous danger sense.

[Getty]

Sure. God dang it. This is so complicated and so dangerous for society.

[Armstrong]

Greg Lukianoff. Greg, can we put you on hold for just a couple of minutes and come back, continue the discussion?

[Greg Lukianoff]

That'd be great.

[Armstrong]

Fantastic. Yeah, I wanted to ask specifically about administrations on college campuses and the nature of college education right now and how it's contributing to the problem.

[Getty]

The Coddling of the American Mind. A book that needs to be, you know, read and discuss.

[Armstrong]

Incredibly important.

[Getty]

Oh, it might be the most important thing we got going.

[Armstrong]

All right, so stay with us.

[Getty]

You're listening to the Armstrong and Getty Show.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Armstrong and Getty. The conscience of the. The Armstrong and Getty Show.

[Getty]

It's troubling. And I know I'm a part of it. I know I'm a part of the coddling of the American Mind. We all are.

[LG X Boom Advertiser]

It's.

[Getty]

It's a cultural, societal thing, and it plays out on our college campuses in such bizarre ways. Oh, my God.

[Armstrong]

Continuing the conversation with Greg Lukianoff, the co author with Jonathan Haidt of the Coddling of the American Mind. How good intentions and bad ideas are Setting up a generation for failure. You should know, going in my admiration for Mr. Lukianov, Mr. Haidt, it's somewhere between righteous admiration and they've got to get a restraining order. Very, very big fan of what you fellows are writing about. So just a question. You know, wisdom and intelligence are practically unrelated. I mean, you can see a lot of incredibly intelligent people who just are completely out to sea. What is motivating the supercharged desire to promote, call it political correctness call it coddling minds. The veal calf syndrome, I call it. Why is everybody so motivated to do this on college campuses?

[Greg Lukianoff]

Well, you know, we talk about a bunch of different threads in the book. We give about six different explanatory threads about why some of these trends have gotten so much worse. But part of it is that there's not a lot of pushback on college campuses. And essentially once you create echo chamber, things tend to get much more intense. You have more polarization, people get more radical in their points of view. And unfortunately the fact is that even though universities have always been tilted more leftward, they're now in some departments they're more like 11 to 30 to 1 in terms of ratios. Now you don't have to have perfect parity or anything like that, but I know from my own experience when I was in law school, for example at Samford in California, that if you end up in a group where everybody's just saying not, they're not disagreeing with you constructively, they're just saying yeah, and you don't go far enough to sort of more show off like how morally virtuous they are instead of have a real discussion, it can really spiral out of control quickly.

[LG X Boom Advertiser]

Stop settling for weak sound it's time to level up your game and bring the boom. Hit the town with the ultra durable LG X Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go. Elevate your listening experience to new hotels because let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG XBoom and for a limited time save 25% at LG.com with code Fall25.

[Annabe Sofas Advertiser]

Bring the Boom XBoom there's nothing like sinking into luxury. At washablesofas.com you'll find the Annabe sofa which combines ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price. And get this, it's the only sofa that's fully machine washable from top to bottom. Starting at only $699, the stain resistant performance fabric slipcovers and cloud like frame duvet can go straight into your wash. Perfect for anyone with kids, pets or anyone who loves an easy to clean spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slipcovers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style. Whether you need a single chair, loveseat or a luxuriously large sectional, Annabe has you covered. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your home. Right now you can shop up to 60% off store wide with a 30 day money back guarantee. Shop [e-mail] Add a little to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Cynthia Littleton]

There's a lot going on in Hollywood. How are you supposed to stay on top of it all? Variety has the solution. Take 20 minutes out of your day and listen to the new daily Variety podcast for breaking entertainment news and expert perspectives.

[LG X Boom Advertiser]

Where do you see the business actually heading?

[Cynthia Littleton]

Featuring the iconic journalists of Variety and hosted by co editor in chief Cynthia Littleton.

[Greg Lukianoff]

The only constant in Hollywood is change.

[Cynthia Littleton]

Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Daily Variety and listen now.

[TiVo Advertiser]

Over 300 channels, zero bills. That's TiVo plus live news, reality movies and more. No credit card, no signups. Available on smart TVs powered by TiVo. Grab the remote, press play and start watching T bow plus free binge worthy always on.

[Asma Khalid]

Learn [e-mail] America is changing and so is the world.

[Tristan Redman]

But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Asma Khalid]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Tristan Redman]

Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global story.

[Asma Khalid]

Every weekday we'll bring you a story for from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Tristan Redman]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Getty]

Is there any reversing in this? I know we, we've, we've pointed out a couple of universities across the country where somebody stood up in the administration and said no, where we've taken this too far, written op eds, that sort of thing. Is there any reversing of this going on right now?

[Greg Lukianoff]

University of Chicago is definitely one of the schools that's trying to push back on this and they issued something that is now simply known as the Chicago Statement, which is a statement of academic freedom kind of updated for the modern age. A lot of like the old academic freedom statements, the best, the last best ones came out in like the 1970s. So University of Chicago wrote this great statement talking about how, you know, like, we have to stand by speech even when it's offensive and you don't disinvite someone who's invited because you don't like their point of view and really trying to, trying to prepare students for just the fact that when done correctly, education is going to be emotional, it's going to be difficult, it's going to challenge you, it's going to hurt a little bit in your head. And so far the good news is that about close to 40 different schools across the country have adopted some version of the Chicago statement.

[Armstrong]

Well, that's good. That's good news. So let's go back to a point you were making earlier about illustrating to parents the downside of. Of, you know, turning their kid into a veal calf, because, you know, we all think of terrible things that could happen. It's a natural protective impulse, et cetera, I tweeted a couple of things over the weekend on the theme that since it's inevitable that a monopoly on thought or a monopoly on opinion always results in horror if you can demonize or make illegal other points of view. You know, every time we've tried this in human history, it goes horribly, horribly wrong. You'd think that would be a fairly easy point to illustrate to young, bright people attending colleges.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Yeah, well. But part of the problem is, and this is something that really brought Haidt and I together, is that, you know, Bill Bishop pointed out in a book called the Big Sort that we increasingly live in more politically homogeneous, not just counties, but even neighborhoods down to the city block. So a lot of us don't even have constructive people to disagree with who live next to us. Add to that social media, which kind of pats you on the back for having yourself in the most effective echo chamber you can put together. And, of course, some of these things are getting worse. And my hope is that social media is like living in a brand new city. It just popped out of nowhere and we're all wandering around and we're really messing it up and really don't know how to live there. My hope is that we'll get better and smarter about culturally dealing with living in a society where we actually have to fight to have exposure to ideas that challenge us.

[Getty]

I like that you've expanded it, looking at this problem not just for the college campuses, even though it's, you know, particularly interesting there, since it's the opposite of what is supposed to happen on a college campus. But, yeah, all through life, the. The coddling of children's bodies and then their minds in college. And now, you know, last week, the Big Story, David Remnick disinviting Steve Bannon because it wasn't his. People didn't want him to debate. I mean, in all areas of our life where we're trying to avoid ideas and feeling uncomfortable in any way, it's weird for a society.

[Greg Lukianoff]

And this is what undergirds my whole. I don't actually, I don't think it's that weird. I think the situation normal for most of Human history is. The way we treat dissenters is we make them drink hemlock, we kick them out of our communities, we chop off their heads, we tie them to stick and burn them. This is history. Normal as we're tribal and we get rid of people who disagree. But one of the greatest inventions we've ever come up with as a species is, oh my God, what if I actually listen to the people who I really dislike? What if I actually see if they have a point? What if I stop listening just to my neighbor and kin? And it's funny because when you see people advocating on campus for by the way, words are just another form of violence. Opinions are inherently violent if they're really offensive. What I always like to point out is these aren't new ideas. These are very, very old bad ideas. And yes, it's an invention to say that there's a distinction entirely between opinions and violence. But as I always say, it's also one of the best inventions we've ever come up with.

[Armstrong]

Yeah. And in the minute we have left, it just reminds me once again that human nature doesn't change. A lot of the language you hear is just a variation on the charges of heresy that of sort some 12th century pope might throw around.

[Greg Lukianoff]

That is exactly right. I wrote a piece called we are all Blasphemers and pointed out how every last one of us should be executed in the eye of someone either currently living in the world right now or somewhere in history.

[Getty]

Wow, that's a good point right there.

[Armstrong]

Yeah.

[LG X Boom Advertiser]

Indeed.

[Armstrong]

Greg Lukianoff, who is the author, along with Jonathan Haidt, of the Coddling of the American Mind. I suggest everybody in the world buy five copies and send it to everybody. You know, Greg, it's always great to talk to you. Keep up the good work and we look forward to the next tremendously fun discussion.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Thank you. All right.

[Getty]

Thanks, boy. And he's right. I'm wrong. I'm right that it's weird for our culture, but it's not weird for human history. It is the most common thing for human history that you don't allow any other point of view of the official one.

[Armstrong]

Yeah, well, weird as in off putting and disturbing. I think you're right about that.

[LG X Boom Advertiser]

Stop settling for weak sound. It's time to level up your game and bring the boom. Hit the town with the ultra durable LG X Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go. Elevate your listening experience to new heights because let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG XBoom and for a limited time, save [e-mail] with code Fall25. Bring the Boom XBoom.

[Annabe Sofas Advertiser]

Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets and kids. But with Annabe, you never have to stress about messes again. At WashablesOfAs.com, discover Annabe sofas, the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out, starting at just $699. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Time need flexibility. Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly. Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Cynthia Littleton]

There's a lot going on in Hollywood. How are you supposed to stay on top of it all? Variety has the solution. Take 20 minutes out of your day and listen to the new daily Variety podcast for breaking entertainment news and expert perspectives.

[LG X Boom Advertiser]

Where do you see the business actually heading?

[Cynthia Littleton]

Featuring the iconic journalist of Variety and hosted by co editor in chief Cynthia Littleton.

[Greg Lukianoff]

The only constant in Hollywood is change.

[Cynthia Littleton]

Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Daily Variety and listen now.

[TiVo Advertiser]

Over 300 channels, zero bills. That's TiVo. Plus curated movies, new series and sports highlights. No credit card, no logins, just TV that gets straight to the good stuff. Grab the remote, press play and start watching TiVo plus free binge worthy always on.

[Asma Khalid]

Check us [e-mail] America is changing and so is the world.

[Tristan Redman]

But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Asma Khalid]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Tristan Redman]

Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global story.

[Asma Khalid]

Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Tristan Redman]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.