You Woke Little Dwarf

Summary

Armstrong & Getty On Demand

Episode: "You Woke Little Dwarf"

Date: November 20, 2025
Podcast: iHeartPodcasts
Hosts: Jack Armstrong & Joe Getty

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Episode Overview

This episode of Armstrong & Getty On Demand features the hosts' trademark wide-ranging discussion—from serious political news (Epstein files, military insubordination arguments) to debates about historical narratives (Ken Burns’ "The American Revolution") and lighter material, including viral animal clips and offbeat humor. The main theme centers around skepticism of prevailing political and historical narratives, often confronting perceived overreaches of "woke" culture and media.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rachel Maddow at Dick Cheney’s Funeral - Shifting Political Landscapes

(03:49 – 04:23)

• Hosts react in disbelief at reports that liberal commentator Rachel Maddow attended the funeral of Dick Cheney.
• Jack’s Take: Once reviled by the left, Cheney is now considered by some as emblematic of the "grown up" GOP, mainly because his family stands against Trump.
• Joe: “Because the Cheney family was anti-Trump.”
  Jack: “Yes.”
• Reflection on how quickly alliances and political perceptions shift in modern America.

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2. The “Epstein Document Release Act of 2025” – Privacy vs. Transparency

(04:23 – 09:49)

• Congress passes a law pushing for the release of government files on Jeffrey Epstein, with overwhelming public support.
• Jack: Notes enormous political pressure for maximal transparency, predicting public discontent if significant information is redacted.
• Concern: Release could erode long-standing norms about privacy and the presumption of innocence, potentially harming people tangentially mentioned but not accused of crimes.
• Joe: Compares it to opening a dangerous Pandora’s box—justifying action in an extreme case could set a perilous precedent for privacy in all investigations.
• Quote:
  Joe (06:42):
  “If you've got a really, really good reason to murder somebody. Well, once you start murdering people…it’s, you know, Katie, bar the door.”
• Real-world example: Larry Summers lost positions, not due to criminal accusations, but due to embarrassing, tangential associations.
• Discussion expands to “guilt by association” and how lives can be ruined by minor or misconstrued links to bad actors.

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3. Encouraging Military Disobedience – Politics and Chain of Command

(10:51 – 15:19)

• Context: National security Democrats are publicly suggesting military personnel may defy certain Presidential orders (especially if from Trump), under the pretext of fighting fascism.
• Jack:
  “This has been burbling around for a couple of weeks now... Now it’s out in the open.”
• Guest soundbites:
  • Pat Fallon (Republican): Asserts that “not following illegal orders” is Military 101, but it obviously requires practical limits for the chain of command.
  • Jason Crow (Democrat): Vaguely cites the need for judgment and preparation but gives no specifics.
• Critique (Email from listener Henry):
  “Democrats encouraged American servicemen to disobey presidential orders… but refused to give an example of such an order from Trump… Grandstanding from the left who risked nothing…”
• Underlining worry: The politicization of the military and calls for resistance could create real-world martyrs (references to Chelsea Manning).

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4. Viral “Screaming at a Goat” Video – Humor and Gender Stereotypes

(20:15 – 24:32)

• The hosts play and dissect viral audio of a man shrieking upon encountering a neighborhood goat.
• Jack:
  “Well, you can’t get away from a goat that way. It'll just jump on top of the car with you.” (21:36)
• Joe:
  “The goat we’re talking about, now if it were a substantial goat and it were indeed trying to, and I quote, ‘hump us,’ that would be alarming.” (21:08)
• Spirals into banter about startle responses—screaming, fighting, and cultural narratives about gendered behavior and fear.
• Jack pushes buttons with gendered humor (“I don’t think I’ve ever screamed…like I got a vagina.”), leading Joe to playfully rebuke:
  "Wow, that was unnecessary." (22:23)

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5. Ken Burns’ “The American Revolution” – Historical Narratives and Controversy

(28:22 – 48:41)

• Jack describes watching the first moments of Ken Burns’ 12-hour documentary, only to be struck that it opens with the idea that American democracy was inspired by the Iroquois Confederacy—a point he’d never heard before.
• Joe: “I'd never heard that before, specifically... union of separate entities.” (32:27)
• The hosts debate if the claim about Native American influence on the Constitution is “basic high school stuff,” as Twitter critics claim, or “complete nonsense,” as others counter.
• Summary of arguments:
  • Were the Iroquois truly running a democracy akin to the U.S. model? Hosts express deep doubt.
  • Did Benjamin Franklin and others draw directly from Native systems? Joe provides a cursory history of the Iroquois Confederacy (structure, clan mothers choosing leaders, need for unanimity), but concludes:
    “It could be described as an oligarchy as easily as a democracy… I wouldn’t call that a democracy exactly.” (45:02)
  • At best, Native confederacies may have served as one of many inspirations.
• Jack:
  “To act like that was… the seed of the American system—no it’s not.” (48:24)
• Both hosts express disappointment if the documentary leans too hard on contemporary revisionist angles over straightforward historical narrative.
• Quote:
  Jack (34:09):
  “If you led with that, how much—oh, this is going to be hard to watch.”

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6. Meta-Commentary: AI, Trust, and Historical Sources

(44:12 – 46:32)

• Joe facetiously “checks” with ChatGPT about Native American governance, notes studies showing AI fabricates some citations, and jokes maybe it’s just mimicking bad academic habits of humans.
• Broader point: Both in AI and historical commentary, reliable sourcing and skepticism are key, especially in an age of information overload.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Joe Getty:
  “The idea that everybody’s so pristine… Therefore the authorities ought to be able to just broadcast that to whomever they want, anytime they want. I mean, that's anathema to our system.” (06:42)
• Jack Armstrong:
  “You're going to tell me you got nothing in your past, nothing at any point…that if it were exposed, it wouldn’t look bad without explanation? Of course you do. Everybody does.” (08:16)
• Joe Getty (re: Ken Burns):
  “To call it a democracy is a hell of a stretch.” (47:49)
• Jack Armstrong (withering sarcasm on the documentary’s message):
  “The subtitle is ‘How British Colonists Imitated the Indians and Built a Country and Kicked the Indians Off Their Country.’” (34:09)
• On AI and Truth:
  Joe: “ChatGPT fabricated roughly one in five academic citations.” (44:36)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:49 – Start of political discussion, Rachel Maddow at Cheney funeral
• 04:23 – Epstein files law: privacy vs. transparency debate
• 06:42 – Civil liberties and "mob justice" analogies
• 10:51 – Military, illegal orders, and Democrats' rhetoric
• 20:15 – Viral goat video, shrieking, banter about fear responses
• 28:22 – Ken Burns documentary discussion begins
• 32:27 – Claims of Iroquois influence on U.S. democracy scrutinized
• 44:12 – AI, fabricated citations, and historical argument reliability
• 47:49 – Final remarks on “democracy” and Iroquois system

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Tone & Style

• Irreverent yet critical; swings between deeply skeptical, sarcastic humor and serious, sometimes historical-laden commentary.
• Hosts often self-deprecate, challenge each other's points, and invite audience participation by mentioning their text line.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode is a classic Armstrong & Getty show: skeptical of official narratives (be it political cover-ups or "woke" retellings of history), critical of “mob” and media groupthink, and laced with irreverent humor. The discussion on Ken Burns’ documentary provides a window into contemporary debates over how America’s story gets told—and who gets to tell it. Along the way, expect quips about goats, gender stereotypes, the dangers of transparency without privacy, and the reliability (or not) of AI-generated facts.

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For feedback, text 415-295-KFTC.

Transcript

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[Jack Armstrong]

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[Jack Armstrong]

Broadcasting live from the Abraham Lincoln radio.

[Commercial Voice]

Studio at the George Washington Broadcast Center, Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty.

[Joe Getty]

Armstrong and Getty.

[Jack Armstrong]

And now here's Armstrong and Getty.

[Joe Getty]

Wow.

[Jack Armstrong]

Just saw this from Peter Baker of the New York Times. He's at the Dick Cheney funeral. We've been talking about that last hour. All the people that are there. Peter Baker, New York Times writes, if anybody needed more evidence of how politics have changed in America, Rachel Maddow is at Dick Cheney's funeral.

[Joe Getty]

Wow.

[Jack Armstrong]

Because he's now, he's now kind of seen as like the grown up Republican Party as opposed to the evil crazy Trump Party party.

[Joe Getty]

Because the Cheney family was anti Trump.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yes.

[Joe Getty]

Yes. Okay. All right.

[Jack Armstrong]

Oh, my God.

[Joe Getty]

Well, that took the wind right out of my sails. Speaking of things that exhaust me, the Epstein Document Release act of 2025 or whatever they're calling it, past both houses. The President said he'll sign it. I think he did sign it. Yeah. But here's the problem. No one will ever be satisfied. There are enormous loopholes for, for things that should not be and probably will not be released, at least not now to an extent that again, will leave everybody unhappy. I think.

[Jack Armstrong]

Well, like I said, there's going to be tremendous political pressure on everyone if there's a whole bunch of stuff redacted to unredacted. And I think it'll be enough that there'll be pressure on the President to tell Pam Bondi to tell the Justice Department to get more stuff out there. I mean, it passed, what, 4, 2301 in the Senate, didn't even bother to argue about it. I mean, it's so overwhelming. 85% of Americans or something like that want it all to come out there's. Going to be so much political pressure to have as little hidden as possible. So it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. I just read this from one of my favorite thinkers. The Epstein files release sets a horrible precedent as cowardly politicians abandoned long standing norms regarding privacy and the presumption of innocence to the mob. And they've got a picture here of Larry Summers. Yeah, Larry Summers, driven out of his final job. He'd quit everything, the former president of Harvard, but was going to hang on to his teaching position at Harvard. You know why? Because he's an expert in the area he was teaching one of the best experts on planet Earth and what he was teaching at Harvard. And we found out something from many years ago that was very untoward. I mean is definitely bad behavior, but that shouldn't have come out. He, he didn't commit a crime. He wasn't. He's not accused of a crime. He didn't. He just tangentially related to an investigation. And that could happen over and over and over again just on this Epstein thing. And if it becomes the norm that we release all this stuff with every investigation, well then forget it. Any of us could get caught up in something.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, it reminds me metaphorically, if you've got a really, really good reason to murder somebody. Well, once you start murdering people, oh my God, it's, you know, Katie, bar the door. There are plenty of good reasons to want to know. Are there more victims that, are there more perpetrators? You know, sex trafficking, sexually exploiting underage girls and that sort of thing. But at the same time, the government, the cops, local, state, federal, FBI, whatever, they have the right literally to go through your underwear drawer, drawer, paw through all of your phone records and texts and emails, all your financial records and everything. And the idea that everybody's so pristine and has never done anything at all embarrassing or untoward or immoral or at a momentary lapse of whatever. And therefore the authorities ought to be able to just broadcast that to whomever they want, anytime they want. I mean, that's anathema to our system. Well, yeah, this bothers me and I understand the desire to look into it. I really do.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah, I was going to say, because I can hear people saying, yeah, well I don't care because I wasn't emailing Jeffrey Epstein about how to get a, an underling in bed, which Larry Summers was. And that's why he's lost all of his jobs now. He's completely, he's get out of public life. But that's not the way it works, you're going to tell me you got nothing in your past, nothing at any, at any point in your past, professionally, personally, romantically, Anything that if it were.

[Joe Getty]

Taxes criminal, that if it were exposed.

[Jack Armstrong]

It wouldn't look bad without explanation. Of course you do. Everybody does. And it could give, it could be part of an investigation where you're not, you didn't commit a crime, you have nothing to do with the investigation at all. You just got emailed the person once or you know, you hired them once to do a job so you're in their tax records or whatever the hell. Do you want all that sort of stuff to come out every time there's an investigation? No, you do not.

[Joe Getty]

Well, and we were talking more specifically the other day about how both of us have been with people that seemed like they are super fun to hang out with, they really like to party. And then as you got to know em a little better, you realized, oh, they're going well beyond my definition of a good party into something I don't wanna be part of. But you could absolutely be tied to that person. He attended one of his part, several of his parties. You of course had no idea that they were doing cocaine with 12 year olds or whatever. But the minute you got a hint that wow, they're doing really bad stuff that I have no interest in, you don't go back again. But you could easily be tarred with that information. And again I get we're talking about exploitation of underage girls and there's absolutely the stench of the powerful protect each other. But oh man, this is a line. If we cross it here and again there are tons of, of documents that are not going to come out for various reasons.

[Jack Armstrong]

I walked.

[Joe Getty]

If we cross the line, I hope it's just this once.

[Jack Armstrong]

I walked home from a party one time. I thought it was just a regular whoopee party like a drinking beer and everything like that. That's what we were doing and that's the way it started. And then this guy was brought in that everybody was talking about these people I knew and using. They called him the doctor and, and he was coming over and he got there and everybody's happy. And then all these crazy things came out and, and it became a different party than I want to be at. And I left. I just.

[Joe Getty]

I like sex toys or wild animals or drugs.

[Jack Armstrong]

Drugs. I walked home and it was not long after that that that guy is probably still in prison. He got busted big at that kind of a party. The police had been keeping an eye on him. And they all came in and swarmed in. I was always glad that I decided, yeah, this is not what I came here for. And I just walked home. I staggered home. That's like the it's five minutes to the bar and 15 minutes home. Why the difference is staggering. I staggered home from that party. Glad I did. There's lots of people got caught up in that one.

[Joe Getty]

Total change of topic. Speaking of good judgment and bad, Mike Emanuel of Fox News here. Story just breaking, I think, in the last couple of days. Clip 50 Michael Some prominent national security.

[Jack Armstrong]

Democrats are preaching anti fascism while urging US Military personnel to defy President Trump.

[Joe Getty]

Right now, the threats to our Constitution aren't just coming from abroad, but from.

[Jack Armstrong]

Right here at home. Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders.

[Commercial Voice]

You can refuse illegal orders.

[Jack Armstrong]

Hmm.

[Joe Getty]

So what is that more specific next clip MICHAEL White House Deputy Chief of.

[Jack Armstrong]

Staff Stephen Miller calling this unbecoming of their office. There is nothing graver that you could possibly say, encouraging, urging, directing members of the army forces of the United States or the clandestine services of the United States to defy their president, defy their chain of command. This has been burbling around for a couple of weeks now. I guess it's now out in the open more. There have been opinion pieces and that sort of stuff. Urging well, first it started with the people that are blasting the boats down there by Venezuela. Are they guilty of a crime? If it turns out the Supreme Court says the president doesn't have the right to do this, doesn't have the authorization to do this, are they guilty of crime? Then there was a ruling that, no, they're not guilty of a crime. But then there was the push out there that you should defy these orders. It's a crime. Well, then the obvious conversation started at how far down the road are you going to go? Of people get to ignore orders because they're afraid they might not be legal. And what am I supposed to do if I'm a and on? What's a rank above private, but slightly higher than that? But what am I supposed to hire? I'm told to do something and then I got to get a lawyer, have them look it over and write me a paper, and then maybe run it by another lawyer to make sure I'm on the right side of whatever I'm about to do.

[Joe Getty]

It occurs to me this operation is going to destroy private property and I'd rather not be prosecuted for, you know, vandalism or whatever. So I got to have my attorney look, look at this first thank you, Sergeant. Yeah, no kidding. So here's a Republican and Democrat commenting first. This is Pat Fallon of Texas, the Republican.

[Jack Armstrong]

It's just as broad. You don't follow illegal orders. Well, guess what? As a former active duty member of the US Military, that's one of the first things they teach you is that you don't follow illegal orders. So they're being redundant as well. Yeah, worth, worth pointing that out. That is the rule constitutionally and in the military. You do not have to follow an illegal order, but it has limits, obviously, or the whole thing would fall apart. You couldn't, you couldn't run the military at all.

[Joe Getty]

He flies and steals things out of golf carts. He's Representative Jason Crow, the Democrat of Colorado. As a military officer, what I think.

[Jack Armstrong]

Is important is we train people, we give them information, we prepare people for challenges coming down the pike.

[Joe Getty]

That is what I did as a commander in the military. That's what I'm doing now. As we are standing by our troops.

[Jack Armstrong]

We are reminding them of their obligation.

[Joe Getty]

Interestingly enough, nobody cited anything specific and they didn't say which service members might have received or have received illegal orders. It just.

[Jack Armstrong]

The. In general, the crows seem to be calling his name. Said, caw. That's one of my favorite jokes.

[Joe Getty]

Hilarious.

[Jack Armstrong]

I don't know. This has been really hot in your left wing circles for the last week or so. Should be defying orders from an illegal president.

[Joe Getty]

Got this note from Henry. Democrats encouraged American servicemen to disobey presidential orders if they felt they were legal, but refused to give an example of such an order from Trump. So grandstanding from the left who risked nothing from encouraging others to violate their sworn oath. I hope no young soldier, sailor, or airman gets deceived by these scoundrels to commit a foolish decision that could ruin their life. Oh, the left would love their martyrdom and the media would make them celebrities, but when it came to paying the price, these demagogues would hide behind their lawyers. That's true. Pity the young sergeant who goes the way of, you know, Chelsea Manning or, or, you know. Yeah, person like that.

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[Jack Armstrong]

There's a little talk about how the TSA is going to be handling the airports. Maybe over Thanksgiving. Biggest travel week of the year coming up next week. Maybe we ought to check in on that story, among other things. Stay with us.

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[Jack Armstrong]

So I'm just looking at this. We got a clip. Man screams when he runs into neighborhood goat. Let's hear what that sounds like. That's a real goat.

[Joe Getty]

That's a real goat.

[Jack Armstrong]

Go, go, go. Smokey here is a neighborhood favorite.

[Joe Getty]

He scared the female out of me.

[Jack Armstrong]

You know what I'm Saying, I mean, look at him. Just look through the window, making sure he was okay. And my mom running outside with a knife. She's so scared of animals.

[Joe Getty]

Go.

[Jack Armstrong]

Trying to hump us.

[Joe Getty]

Goat trying to hump us. Is that what he said at the end?

[Jack Armstrong]

Mom ran outside with a knife. Stab the goat man.

[Joe Getty]

Card, please. Hand it over.

[Jack Armstrong]

Feel like you overreacted to a goat.

[Joe Getty]

The goat we're talking about now, if it were a substantial goat and it were indeed trying to end, I quote, hump us, that would be alarming.

[Jack Armstrong]

It would. I have a feeling. This was like a pygmy goat.

[Joe Getty]

Probably.

[Jack Armstrong]

In a city area. They're almost always.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Jack Armstrong]

Your little dwarf goats. Pygmy goats.

[Joe Getty]

And they're likely to be some big ram. Yeah. Probably wearing a sweater. Yep.

[Jack Armstrong]

He jumped on his car and then started screaming. That's what goats do, man. They jump on top of every vehicle you got.

[Joe Getty]

No, I think the guy jumped. Yeah, the guy jumped in the car. Oh, he jumped on screaming goat. Screaming guy because of a goat.

[Jack Armstrong]

Well, you can't get away from a goat that way. It'll just jump on top of the car with you. Hey, what are you doing cool up here? Isn't. Nice view.

[Joe Getty]

Nice view.

[Jack Armstrong]

Mind if I hump you? That's some scream he's got. Like how the guy goes. It scared the female out of him. Trying to think if there's a situation where I'd ever scream like that. Unfortunate that I. Well, I've had some bad things happen or startling things happen, and I've never screamed. I don't think no crap or something like many times in my life, but I've never gone like that. Like, I have a. Like I got a vagina.

[Joe Getty]

Wow. That was unnecessary.

[Jack Armstrong]

Really.

[Joe Getty]

Well, yeah.

[Jack Armstrong]

Tell me more, Jack.

[Joe Getty]

I'll step back and let the lady have some.

[Jack Armstrong]

Just go ahead, Jack. Keep going with that thought. I think in general, screaming is more for the female persuasion than the male persuasion. On the whole.

[Commercial Voice]

On the whole.

[Jack Armstrong]

Not. Obviously.

[Joe Getty]

We're working with Larry Summers here. Yeah. This is outrageous.

[Jack Armstrong]

It's disgusting. Misogynist. On average, I think it's more often women than men who scream.

[Joe Getty]

When I crested a small hill and came face to face with a mountain lion a number of years ago.

[Jack Armstrong]

Scream like that?

[Joe Getty]

No, I yelled, holy ass. Yeah. Yeah. And the mountain lion turned and looked at me with a look at its face, like, holy.

[Jack Armstrong]

Are you at the. That's Joe Getty from Armstrong and Getty.

[Joe Getty]

I love your show. Thanks. Thanks.

[Jack Armstrong]

Do you. Have you ever screamed, Katie? Been startled and Screamed? No, I don't think so. I can think of two times I've been really startled. My first reaction was to swing at whatever it was. So there you go.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah.

[Jack Armstrong]

You don't picture me as a screamer or you picture me as more of a swing on whatever it is. Yeah, kick it in the face.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, pretty much when it, when in doubt. Yeah, kick it in the face.

[Jack Armstrong]

Do you have any control over that? No, no, I, I, my one of re one example, it was a dear friend of mine and I was standing outside and he came up behind me and thought it would be a good idea to pinch the back of my neck and scream really loud when he did it. And I came around with an elbow and followed through and just clocked him. And I didn't realize it was him until after, so. So your reaction to fright you don't think you have any control over? You don't?

[Joe Getty]

No. Except through training.

[Jack Armstrong]

But it'd take a lot.

[Joe Getty]

Military training, police training, that sort of thing. And it could be there's some people who just, they, for whatever anthropological reason.

[Jack Armstrong]

They just can't or a lot of experiences. Maybe you're not trained, but it just happens to you a lot. I'll bet you get numb to it. If you, you know, I imagine the first time a bomb hits your apartment complex in Kiev, you might scream. But the 10th time it's like, here we go again. Yeah.

[Joe Getty]

Speaking of which, there's a peace plan in the works that will never work for a single second. But Trump is trying. Anyway.

[Jack Armstrong]

I got a question about the Ken Burns American Revolution documentary. I only watched like three minutes and I thought that's weird. I've never heard that. It's already turned into a controversy. The first three minutes. I think. Let's see if Hanson could grab the audio because I want to discuss this. I'd never heard it before and I'll see if Joe's ever heard it before.

[Commercial Voice]

Armstrong and Getty.

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[Commercial Announcer]

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[Jacob Goldstein]

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[Jack Armstrong]

So we're going to talk about this Ken Burns documentary, the American Revolution, which I watched like five minutes of. It's 12 hours long. I've seen five minutes of it and already in the first five minutes I was like, I never heard that before. I'll have to look into that. And it's kind of erupted into a controversy already. Now, I'm from South Dakota, so I'm well aware of how the Indians got host. I mean, I've been hearing that my whole life and reading about it my whole life. And I'm also called Kansas Home. And I think that's where the last Indian battle was in American history. But yeah, it was, but I don't know, I just. Maybe it's because I'm a white guy or just because I think, yeah, that's the history of the world. And one team wins and one team loses and. I don't know. What do you want me to do? I don't know.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, if you'd like, we could go over the history of the part of like Germany slash Austria, a lot of my family's from, and how many warrior tribes have held it, taken it, slaughtered somebody else gotten slaughtered, blah, blah, blah. So I just. It's. It's unquestionably true, but I just. So what is my question? I mean, some of the, the dishonesty and double dealing by the government was shameful back in the day, but again, what am I going to do?

[Jack Armstrong]

Oh, yeah, it's so horrifying, but probably very similar, if not much less brutal than what those Indian tribes were doing to other Indian tribes when they decided they wanted their land.

[Joe Getty]

What's that Summer Moon book you read?

[Jack Armstrong]

Empire the Summer Moon. Oh, my God. Is that a good book?

[Joe Getty]

But brutal, right?

[Jack Armstrong]

Very.

[Joe Getty]

Not for the kids.

[Jack Armstrong]

God, that first chapter, I. That's funny. It pops into my head every now and then, like, oh, gives me a shudder. That's how bad it was.

[Joe Getty]

Any horrific torture, that's all you need to know. Right.

[Jack Armstrong]

So this is from the very, like, first couple of minutes. This is a couple minutes long. Two minutes long. Stick with it if you will, because we'll discuss afterwards. I don't feel guilty about playing it since it's PBS and my taxpayer money paid for it. At least Partially, anyway. So it's Ken Burns. It's about the American Revolution. And I knew it was going to have more how the Native Americans got hosed than you usually get out of the Founding Father stuff. I thought, you know, that's probably fine, you know. Anyway, here's how it goes.

[Joe Getty]

This is the very we know our lands are now become more valuable. The white people think we do not know their value, but we are sensible that the land is everlasting. Kanaso Tego spokesman for the Six Nations.

[Jack Armstrong]

Long before 13 British colonies made themselves into the United States, the Six nations of the Iroquois Confederacy, Seneca, Cayuga, Onondaga, Tuscarora, Oneida and Mohawk had created a union of their own that they called the Haudenosaunee, a democracy that had flourished for centuries.

[Joe Getty]

We heartily recommend union. We are a powerful confederacy and by your observing the same methods our wise forefathers have taken, you will acquire fresh strength and power. Therefore, whatever befalls you never fall out one with another.

[Jack Armstrong]

In the spirit. In the spring of 1754, the celebrated scientist and writer Benjamin Franklin proposed that the British colonies form a similar union. Okay, so the implication being there that the Indians had a democracy going for centuries. That's what they said a couple hundred years before we got here. And we, Benjamin Franken took our kind of cue from them on starting the similar thing.

[Joe Getty]

I'd never heard that before, specifically union of separate entities.

[Jack Armstrong]

I'd never heard that before. And it made me go, I'll have to look into that. Anyway, so it's kind of turned into a controversy a little bit with a variety of my favorite thinkers arguing on Twitter, which is where you argue if you're part of the intelligent. Less than three minutes into the Ken Burns documentary on the American Revolution, we get one, white people are bad, two, Native Americans had a centuries old democracy before British colonists arrived. And three, Benjamin Franklin copied the Native American blueprint. A different thinker with a different point of view said the League of the Iroquois being a framework for the Constitution is pretty basic middle high school history textbook stuff. Sorry you didn't pay attention. I hadn't heard that. And I've done a lot of reading about this over my life that we took our cue from the Indians on the whole democracy thing.

[Joe Getty]

It was a model for the Constitution.

[Jack Armstrong]

And then Charles C.W. cook, who we both like from the National Review, said it's also pretty basic nonsense. So I would like to get Tim Sandifer involved in this because I had never heard that. And to lead with that, I mean, the opening of this 12 hours is, you know, he really came up with the idea from the Indians who were already here and doing a democracy and everything was just hunky dory. And then we, you know, killed them all off and took their idea. Is that what the point of this is?

[Joe Getty]

Wow.

[Jack Armstrong]

Wow.

[Joe Getty]

Is that a reach?

[Jack Armstrong]

That's what I.

[Joe Getty]

Several different ways.

[Jack Armstrong]

That's what I thought. It just seemed like such a reach and they'll lead with it. Makes me think. I was really looking forward to this because he's such a great documentary filmmaker. I was really looking forward to it and I'm sure there's a whole bunch of stuff in there that I'm love, but if you led with that, how much. Oh, this is going to be hard to watch.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah. The subtitle is How British Colonists Imitated the Indians and Built a Country and Kicked the Indians Off Their Country. Yeah. Okay, great. All right.

[Jack Armstrong]

Had you ever heard that before that Benjamin Franklin got his idea that he pitched to the colonists from the Indians?

[Joe Getty]

Well, no, no, it doesn't ring a bell. You know, the fact that there were democratic systems, quote unquote, among the tribes. I'd known. But like as that was, that was portrayed as a direct inspiration. A, B, C. Right. As opposed to, you know, the, the Roman and Greek republics and the, you know, the various philosophers and John Locke and all sorts of, you know, I could go on and on, John Stuart Mill later. But to be. No, that was. That was the way to, to direct the line to draw. And that's an odd place to begin. That's not what the documentary is. Not about the receding of the Indian tribes.

[Jack Armstrong]

But I'm willing to be corrected. But I'm scrunching up my nose at the idea of a multi century long successful democracy among the Indian nations. I just don't buy that.

[Joe Getty]

It could have been a confederation and there could have been some sort of voting, but it's not like the individual.

[Jack Armstrong]

Tribal members, probably with regular wars to the death in which they, you know, redraw the boundaries and come to some sort of truce for a little while would be my guess.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, it's more likely that, you know, the leaders of the various tribes got together and said, all right, four to three we're going to go to war with the Sioux or whatever. But yeah, yeah, that's a stretch that. I tell you what, if that's the.

[Jack Armstrong]

Beginning of the thing, that's the very beginning. That's the first three minutes. I know, and I wanted to enjoy this. Why is everybody so. Not everybody but why are. Why is a certain crowd so resistant to just telling the story of what happened?

[Joe Getty]

Because they get no from a.

[Jack Armstrong]

Hey, isn't from their circles cool? Yeah.

[Joe Getty]

Ken Burns would get the hell beat out of him by the people he holds dear, the left, if he were just to tell the story of the formation of the most successful country on.

[Jack Armstrong]

Earth that changed the world forever. Now, they did have that in the run. They did have that in the run up. Like the previews before the thing started about how this is the most important revolution in world history and this kicked off, you know, an entirely different era for mankind and all the. The importance of it was not left out. And I've heard him doing interviews where he talks about that. He doesn't. I mean, he's definitely not leaning into the America is a force for evil. It was founded on slavery. The world would have been better off if we never happen thing that the, you know, garbage Hannah Jones, whatever her name is, pitches.

[Joe Getty]

But Howard Zinn, filth.

[Jack Armstrong]

I'll bet he wouldn't have been able to get the funding to even do the damn thing if he hadn't leaned this hard into. We just copied the Indians, really. And they'd already done it. Why did. Why didn't we just let them keep it? All right, well, I'll watch a little more of it. I don't know how far I can get if that. If that's what happened in the first 180 seconds. Damn.

[Joe Getty]

Was like. There have been a couple of shows that have been fairly highly recommended, including one in particular, Slow Horses, which is really good British drama with. What's his face, the actor. You know, the guy with two arms. Anyway, what is it? Gary Oldman.

[Jack Armstrong]

You know him?

[Joe Getty]

And it became Rory Calhoun.

[Jack Armstrong]

And.

[Joe Getty]

And. And the plot was there'd been an Islamic extremist bombing in London, but then the twist was quickly early that, no, it wasn't Islamic terrorists. It was white nationalists, racists, trying to fake a Muslim attack to discredit them because they're such bigots. I was like, I'm out. And it's set in London, which has an enormous problem with the Islamization of the great cities of Britain, much like most of Europe, having let in rampant immigration from North Africa for years and years and years. I was like, okay, come on. And I tell you what, Ken, you.

[Jack Armstrong]

Scrum, you walk, little dwarf, and you dye your hair.

[Joe Getty]

What? There's no reason to go.

[Jack Armstrong]

We had him in this very studio. He dyes his hair. We saw it up close.

[Joe Getty]

I'm not denying it's.

[Jack Armstrong]

True. It's like 80 years old and he pretends he's 35.

[Joe Getty]

It's not salient, is my objection.

[Jack Armstrong]

Well, that's probably true.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, you're gonna make it about okay. I don't know, maybe he feels like he has to buy off his crowd so then he can get to the story of the revolution. I don't know. I'd love to ask him that question. Dude, why would you start with that? I mean, even if they had a functioning democracy in, you know, that that we modern people would recognize as a.

[Jack Armstrong]

Quote unquote democracy scrunching up my face. It hasn't been covered very well, I'll tell you that.

[Joe Getty]

That may have been one of many inspirations and examples that the the Enlightenment generation studied. Tact like it's abc. Like I said before, it's just not true.

[Jack Armstrong]

The hair on your head doesn't match your beard at all.

[Joe Getty]

All right then I'm done. I'm through here. I've tried.

[Jack Armstrong]

Any thoughts on this text line 415295 KFTC Armstrong and Gettysburg there's.

[Commercial Voice]

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Stands firm in faith, serves the community and delivers top financial services with Elite Checking. Earn up to 4% APY on balances under 50 $15,000. Get paid early, enjoy loan discounts and more. Because at Accu your money should reflect your mission. Visit AmericasChristianCu.com Elite to learn more. Early pay depends on when your employer sends your paycheck. We can't guarantee early direct deposit. APY equals annual percentage yield. America's Christian Credit Union is federally insured by the ncua.

[Commercial Announcer]

Every holiday shopper's got a list. But Ross shoppers? You've got a mission like a gift run that turns into a disco, snow globe, throw pillows and PJs for the whole family. Dog included. At Ross, holiday magic isn't about spending more, it's about giving more for less. Ross, work your magic.

[Jacob Goldstein]

This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? Business software is expensive, and when you buy software from lots of different companies, it's not only expensive, it gets confusing. Slow to use, hard to integrate. Odoo solves that because all Odoo software is connected on a single affordable platform. Save money without missing out on the features you need. Odoo has no hidden costs and no limit on features or data. Odoo has over 60 apps available for any needs your business might have, all at no additional charge. Everything from websites to sales to inventory to accounting. All linked and talking to each other. Check out [e-mail] that's o d o.

[Jack Armstrong]

O.Com in the spring of 1754, the celebrated scientist and writer Benjamin Franklin proposed the time the British colonies form a similar union. So that's from ken Burns new 12 hour documentary the American Revolution, which I was really, really looking forward to. And three minutes into it they open with the Indian tribes having had a democracy for several hundred years and it worked fine. And Benjamin Franklin thought, man, that's a good idea. We should try that. Here and took that cue from the Indians to try to create a democracy.

[Joe Getty]

Ourselves and booted them off the land, which did their form of government, which.

[Jack Armstrong]

Was news to me. I had never heard that angle before and I thought. And now it's kind of turned into an online argument.

[Joe Getty]

Well, Jack, I'd forgotten. I've spent my life studying this, and I totally didn't just do an AI search on the question. And I'm not reading that. I'm just recalling my schooling and reading. So this is Chat GPT. It's probably worth mentioning that a new university study of mental health literature found that ChatGPT fabricated. Fabricated roughly one in five academic citations.

[Jack Armstrong]

Hey, I've got a theory on that. By the way, the whole hallucination thing. Since AI is learning from us, I wonder if it's just that since we found out years ago, like half of papers and studies can't be replicated, maybe it's just figured out that's the way humans do it. They make.

[Joe Getty]

So AI has figured.

[Jack Armstrong]

Nobody checks anyway, people make stuff up all the time. They're like. They're called university professors.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, maybe so. Anyway, yes, many North American natives had sophisticated systems of governance that qualify as functioning democracies, often more participatory and consensual than European models of the time. Well, yeah, that's because they're mostly monarchies. But anyway, they. They varied enormously by region, nation. But to. To the point of the one that Ken Burns was citing, the Iroquois Confederacy, which indeed hung together for hundreds of years. There were six Indian nations united under the great law of peace. Here is this so called democracy? They had a grand council of 50 civil chiefs known as sachems, that were chosen, interestingly, by clan mothers. So the women, the senior women of the tribes would choose their senators. In effect, decisions required unanimity, not simple. Majority sachems could be removed by the clan mothers if they failed to serve the people. And there was a separation of war chiefs and peace chiefs, which was viewed as something like civilian control of the military. But the idea that 50 emissaries would get together, it could be described as an oligarchy as easily as a democracy. I think these 50 chiefs got together and had a vote, and it had to be unanimous over thousands of people. Thousands and thousands of people. I wouldn't call that a democracy exactly.

[Jack Armstrong]

Well, so that's one thing. That's just confederation.

[Joe Getty]

Oh, and Ben Franklin, John Adams and other founders explicitly referenced the Confederacy as an example of the sort of union that was possible.

[Jack Armstrong]

Right. But. Well, anybody who's into this stuff has done enough reading on all the founding fathers that they were super into, as you already pointed out, what the Greeks and the Romans had done and writers like John Locke and all that sort of stuff. I don't remember regular references to what the Indian tribes have pulled off.

[Joe Getty]

Well, right. And it's, it's easy to imagine John Adams or, or Ben Franklin saying. I mean, for instance, right here you witness that these tribes came together and confederated and work out their differences. So it's possible. But yeah, they studied the, the Greek and Roman systems in particular and their strengths and weaknesses exhaustively. So again, the idea that. Hey, wait a minute, look at those. What those Indians are doing.

[Jack Armstrong]

I got an idea.

[Joe Getty]

And that's what launched the American Revolution. That's just silly, Ken.

[Jack Armstrong]

So each of those representatives that would go in and vote, were they taking a vote back at home with their tribe or were they just deciding what was best for them?

[Joe Getty]

No, they were just, you know, they were probably reflecting the desires of the tribe. Maybe they could be.

[Jack Armstrong]

Boo. Knowing human nature. Maybe, maybe not.

[Joe Getty]

If the old gals of the tribe didn't think they were doing a good job, they could say, no, you don't get to be a sachem anymore. But yeah, to call it a democracy is a hell of a stretch.

[Jack Armstrong]

And then the other stretch to say that's what gave Ben Franklin the idea for forming a democracy in the colonies.

[Joe Getty]

It's trying way too hard.

[Jack Armstrong]

It really is.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah. Ken, you're guilty of trying way to.

[Jack Armstrong]

In the first three minutes of the show be a little more excusable if, if that had come in an hour eight. And by the way, the Indians had done something similar that the founding fathers admired. Okay.

[Joe Getty]

Among the structural examples they followed happened to be. Now that would be interesting, sure. But to act like that was the, you know, the, the, what's the Latin phrase? That's, that's the moment of Genesis. That is the seed of the American system. No, it's not.

[Jack Armstrong]

I'll watch more of it, see what I think.

[Joe Getty]

Democracy is a terrible idea.

[Jack Armstrong]

Speaking of history, I was told the new Netflix series about the assassination of James Garfield is really, really good. Like really good with big time actors and stuff. Have you watched that? Just last night.

[Joe Getty]

No, no, I hadn't. But a friend who's very, very sophisticated recommended it quite strongly.

[Jack Armstrong]

I'll have to check that out. Maybe I'll get to that before I get to the American Revolution.

[Commercial Announcer]

Oh.

[Joe Getty]

What I started to say was democracies are a terrible idea just because the Mob rule is terrifying. It's horrible. You have to have, you know, sober representatives who have allegedly the good of the people in their hearts. I think we've gotten a little off track with that, I'd say. Anyway.

[Jack Armstrong]

Okay, well, I'll check it out and report back. So we do 20 hours of this show every single week. There are lots of segments. There are lots of hours. Some of them are so good you want to hear multiple times and play them for your friends. So if you just download our podcast or subscribe to it Armstrong and Getty on Demand, you'll have all those pieces coming to you on a daily basis.

[Joe Getty]

Oh, and head to Armstrong and getty.com the superstore. Oh my gosh, people are loving the KFTC aprons and T shirts and the ruin the entire country Newsome 2028 T shirts Armstrong and getty.com.

[Commercial Voice]

Armstrong and Gettysburg.

America's Christian Credit Union stands firm in faith, serves the community, and delivers top financial services with Elite Checking. Earn up to 4% APY on balances under $15,000. Get paid early, enjoy loan discounts and more. Because at Accu, your money should reflect your mission. Visit AmericasChristiancu.com Elite to learn more. Early pay depends on when your employer sends your paycheck. We can't guarantee early direct deposits. APY equals annual percentage yield. America's Christian Credit Union is federally insured by the ncua.

[Jacob Goldstein]

This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at O D O o dot com. That's O D O o dot com.

[Jack Armstrong]

I'm Rodney Williams.

[Joe Getty]

And I'm Travis Holloway.

[Jack Armstrong]

Welcome to the wealthbreak Podcast, a real conversation about finance. Let's be honest, building wealth doesn't look the same for everyone.

[Commercial Voice]

I feel like sometimes being broke is a cycle and that we might have to revisit that.

[Joe Getty]

And we're not stopping at success stories.

[Commercial Voice]

What happens when it doesn't go right? How do you cope with it?

[Jacob Goldstein]

Because wealth isn't just about money. It's about creating a life where you.

[Jack Armstrong]

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