Peggy Dean (2:56)

I'm not.

Stacy Bloomfield (2:58)

No.

Peggy Dean (2:58)

It is true, though. I feel like we do. We have so many people that we hear about, and people say, you know, oh, you know, Stacy or, you know, whoever. It's like, yeah. And it's very true. I felt like you have this, like, okay, I get you. I feel like your brain is my brain a little bit. I feel like. And which is fun. It's just fun to know that you click with people. I do a lot of things. I dabble. I know that you have interest in this, too, where you like. I think that it's normal for creative minds to want to do this. But in a nutshell, I kicked off with brush lettering. It was my intro to this space and have gradually added more and more and more so from painting to different mediums of painting, sketching, drawing, and even others. But what I love doing more than anything, because I am one of those people who likes to dabble in so many things, is I'm a lifelong learner. We could talk personality traits all day long, but learner is one of mine. And then I also am an oversharer. So if somebody's like, oh, that looks cool, I'm like, oh, let me show you how I did it, you know? And that's when people, like, either glaze over or they get excited. And so when I see someone else get excited about what I got excited about, that is truly what actually lights me up. And so I am an educator.

Stacy Bloomfield (4:18)

You are an amazing educator. And the amount of really gorgeous content and helpful content and courses and things that you have put out into the world, it's just phenomenal, Peggy. And we're going to dive into that for sure while we're talking. But can you tell everyone a little bit about, like, just who you are, where you live, all the, like, the little personal touches?

Peggy Dean (4:41)

Yeah, okay, Sure. I love the smell of play. D'oh. I'll drink ripple chocolate milk all day long. It's made of peas. I. The things you didn't want to know that you get to know. How about that? I live in Portland, Oregon. I have a wonderful wife and three fur babies, all adopted little angel friends. Let's see. I love to find a good treasure. I love a good estate sale. I love a good agate find on the beach. I love vintage things. Those are things about me.

Stacy Bloomfield (5:16)

Perfect. And you know, I think that who we are, like our interests and our personality traits, especially whenever we are online as artists, whether we're selling our art, we're licensing, or we're creating online courses, like it comes through. It's what also draws people to you sometimes, like your energy and your interest. So like, I love going to your website. I actually showed it to my team recently. I was like, look at how fun Peggy Dean's website is.

Peggy Dean (5:39)

So sweet.

Stacy Bloomfield (5:41)

Well, I mean it, because in truth, like what you do is you help so many creatives learn how to uplevel their skills. How many courses do you have?

Peggy Dean (5:50)

So I started on skillshare and I just started pumping them out in the later years. I've been doing more like solid programs that have like, this is where we start, this is where we end versus project based. But if we're including bite sized project base, I do have over 50. It's a lot.

Stacy Bloomfield (6:06)

The thing that you do so well is you build relationships with people and you have been for years online with artists and students and people move with you through all these programs that you've created. What we're going to talk about a little bit is how you've built this audience of people who just love what you do. Because I mean, this podcast is called Art plus Audience. And I know a little bit about how you built this business in a way that I think many people need to hear about. And it hasn't been through ad spend. Not bad. But you have another ad spend, right?

Peggy Dean (6:34)

Not yet.

Stacy Bloomfield (6:36)

Eventually not yet.

Peggy Dean (6:38)

I think that there's absolutely a place for promotion and marketing. I do. However, I think that when we root ourselves in our foundation, it's always exciting that way. And so for me, when I see somebody else light up over something that either lights me up or once lit me up, because we all go through creative phases, that's reigniting for me too, you know. And so when I can open a door for someone and give them something they never knew that they would have loved, even if that's a stepping stone into a pivot they'll end up doing later, that to me, just lights me up. So in a nutshell, I would say it is connection and it is just being able to connect with people authentically.

Stacy Bloomfield (7:21)

So, Peggy, I want to get into the numbers for a second because a lot of people who listen to this podcast, they're beginning artists and they may have already taken some of your courses. They work on their skill and they're trying to get their work seen and build a business, but like, growing an audience. Like you said, I mean, it's, it's fun. Whenever you are authentic, I mean, you feel like a real person. Every email I read of yours, every post I've ever seen of yours, like, you feel like a real person on the other side of that email. And I think you make people feel that. And it's so wonderful. And because of that, you know, you've grown a pretty substantial following. And so people want to know how. So how many people are in your audience? Newsletter, your social media, and like, how did you get them there? Like, yes, you show up and you make it fun, but like, give me some nitty gritty. How.

Peggy Dean (8:06)

So this was kind of a pivotal point for me. I didn't do email for a while because I was like, oh, I'm on Instagram. I think for me it was like, what do I offer? And then how can I make resources that are available to people that complement that offer to where they want to be in my space? And what really was the big light bulb for me was, what if your account is deleted tomorrow, you're on rented land. All of these things were like big light bulbs. Like, oh, right, Instagram could change in two seconds. And it's kind of doing that now. It's doing it all the time. Where else do we exist online that could change in two seconds? So it's like, no, I do need to take advantage of my email list. I was like, what can actually be something that's super valuable? So what I tell people is, think about when you land on, on a site, is it worth giving your email for? Because, I mean, we're protective of our inboxes. We do not want it to be cluttered up. It is so stressful. So it's like, I want to make sure every email, even if it's promo, it's at least filled with like actual personality and something that's just fun. So I just started creating what, what's called lead magnets to get opt ins guides, forms, things that complemented my courses, because that's what my end goal was. And then I just started sharing about those things and it just kind of was a, a trajectory from there. So numbers wise, I have only organic marketing. I've never done any sort of ad spend, but I have a I think it's like 86,000 on my email list. I send out a monthly email called Peggy's Playground. And it's just literally me talking about absolutely nothing. It has nothing to do with my business. It's just nothing. And I did it because I'm eight years in now. And I was like, I miss connecting with people over absolutely nothing. And so I share. Like, I'm going to send you guys this once a month.

Stacy Bloomfield (9:56)

Thank you for giving everyone permission just to, like, talk and be themselves. Like you said, like, this email is about not about my business. It's not like sneaky self promotion, although we have to promote ourselves as artists. Right? Right. But, like, I talk all the time to people at the beginning of their journey, and I say, you need to start a newsletter. And they say, well, what do I talk about? Talk about yourself. And they're like, I not interesting, or I have no idea what to share. So to see someone with your audience do that vulnerably is amazing.

Peggy Dean (10:24)

Now I have something to piggyback on that I am not. Interesting is interesting. I'm not kidding. Because if you show up and you just start word vomiting, A, it's relatable. Oh, my gosh. B, it's going to get interesting because you've started. Think of it like you're just brain dumping because it's like, gosh, okay, I'm sending this and you may or may not care, and that's fine. But I figured one of you guys has got to feel this way too. And you're just talking about you are an introvert. You feel awkward sending it. Whatever. You don't have to make it a big show off of that topic, but at least you're starting with a connection that somebody else can be like me too.

Stacy Bloomfield (11:06)

So, Peggy, your secret power is overwhelming authenticity. And you said oversharing, which I actually think is not a bad thing at all. You said it earlier. But, like, your overwhelming authenticity and your. I'm going to call it brave because for a lot of people, it's terrified to be fully yourself in an online platform. How many people do you think you've served over the years in your programs?

Peggy Dean (11:27)

It's almost 500,000 students. Oh, that's. And I have a screenshot every time I get to say that out loud. It doesn't even feel real.

Stacy Bloomfield (11:36)

I didn't even realize it was that big of a number. That's insane. Oh, you said that, Peggy. I know. Radical bravery and you just being yourself and just getting excited about the things that you care about. And the things that you want to make and create and sharing it with 500,000 people. So when you think back to the beginning of your journey, because I know a little bit about the beginning of your journey, could you have ever imagined that there would be a world where this is what you were stepping into?

Peggy Dean (12:03)

Never. Never. I had no idea. First of all, I just want to say if anybody wants to try something, anything, teaching or not, you know, like, even just art, the idea of, like, I am not an expert yet. I am not a professional at this yet, that can just be flushed right down the toilet. Because I knew that. I knew at that point more than a beginner knew. So if I knew more than a beginner knew, I could help. And the reason why I decided to go for it was because when I was looking for the resource for modern calligraphy in the form of brush lettering, that was eight years ago, there wasn't a class that existed on it. There was traditional calligraphy and pointed pen, modern calligraphy, but there was not brush lettering. And so I thought, you know, I've been teaching myself in this really jagged way, and I've been doing it, and people think it's really cool. So I'm going to teach a class on it, and we'll just see. Because. And I was authentic then, too. I said, now, this isn't something that I'm necessarily an expert in, but I.

Stacy Bloomfield (13:01)

Want to share with you what I've.

Peggy Dean (13:02)

Learned, because I think that this is going to help you with some pitfalls as you get into it, too. And I just. That's what I said. I think that going into that, it took the pressure off of me, and I could kind of laugh and just go with the flow, but honestly, you just never know because that class ended up. I won, and it also landed me on the Today show, so. Oh, that was me not being an.

Stacy Bloomfield (13:26)

Expert and trying, just dropping all these things casually.

Peggy Dean (13:30)

Skillshare's teach challenge. So it wasn't like a. It was, you know, they send them to people in their email list. And I had joined to skillshare around the time that I wanted to learn modern calligraphy and couldn't find anything, but found it. And I was like, well, this is kind of cool that they have all these classes. So I started taking random ones that were just like side projects for fun and just to kind of reignite creativity after being an adult and not having been creative for a while.

Stacy Bloomfield (13:54)

Oh, yeah.

Peggy Dean (13:55)

So that was what it was. It just came through, and I was like, okay. And it's been Great. And now some of those classes are licensed. Other places. Like, I have a class on American Airlines right now. Question mark. I know.

Stacy Bloomfield (14:08)

Flying American Airlines soon. I'm going to go find you in my plane.

Peggy Dean (14:11)

Yeah, you should. And you'll have to take a picture and send it to me because that's, like, highlight of my day. I haven't seen it yet because I haven't been playing American.

Stacy Bloomfield (14:20)

So you pretty much have this phenomenal career, organically grown based out of things you care about and are passionate about by being radically, authentically yourself. And it kind of seems like the perfect dream for so many artists out there. But, you know, I know because I've been doing this for a long time, too. I'm like 15 years in. All the cool stats and all the real big wins are amazing. But there's also messy things that happen or mistakes that we make or times when we think, oh, crap, I've made a big mistake. I don't know if I can recover from this. So you mind just sharing a little bit about one instance where maybe you thought I've made a mistake? And I don't know if I can keep going forward here.

Peggy Dean (15:01)

I'm going to start with saying that no matter how far in you are, you're always going to feel like you're not doing something right or you need to improve something. And you're going to always have. No matter how loose you are with, like, being comfortable showing up and doing what you love doing, there will always be doubt and you will always have waves of imposter syndrome, period. That's just part of it. So what I do when that pops up, I know that this isn't the question, but I still have to say it is. I just think of it as just this unwanted guest who I'm going to allow to sit with me. But I'm focused right now, so I'm going to keep being like, you know, you're going to sit here and you're going to exist, and that's all I'm going to let you do. And so that's kind of how I think about those feelings, because it's a part of it, period. Like, it is. It will be stronger sometimes, and it will not exist sometimes. You'll feel great, but it will be there. What I learned, you know, and I feel like I learned this again and again, is to trust our resourcefulness and to trust that our ideas are good enough and to trust that we have them. Because I think that's one that where we get really stuck in seeing Things that are out there, and we're like, oh, gosh, that's such a good idea. I could never come up with that. Well, the answer to that is creation more than consumption. Create more than you consume, and then you will see that you do have that. My biggest pitfalls are actually. My answer is different than it ever has been, which is in the last couple of years, I've been investing in, quote, the bigger answer or the correct answer or the correct roadmap. And I have found that it has actually hindered me more than helped me grow. And it's because I was following something that wasn't aligning with where I. It's not that anything was bad. It's just that it wasn't for me. I wasn't trusting my ideas enough. I was feeling like, oh, I need to reroute or I need to do something in a different way. And that essentially unpegified it. I've never used that. Please don't think I do. But it did. It kind of stripped my personality away a little bit. I always feel like mistakes, though, are kind of a blessing in disguise, because now I feel reignited, and I feel like, oh, I have an opportunity to, like, really go to my core and connect with people the way I want to. But it was good for me to experience things that were like, let's talk about marketing. It was good for me to experience what that strategically quote should look like, and then to reflect and think like, okay, well, I'm glad that I know that. I'm glad I've had a peek into it. But this just solidifies and gives me confidence that I actually just want to do it my way, and I think that's okay.

Stacy Bloomfield (17:52)

Oh, that's incredibly powerful. And it resonates with me because I think there comes a point for a lot of people is you keep thinking, I don't trust myself. I don't have the more knowledge. There's people out there who are. Appear miles ahead of me, and they're doing things in such a polished way, such a systematic way. And clearly it's the system. The system is what is building that and truth. We have systems for our business. But, like me as a person, I've got to be able to, like, spontaneously. My team love this about me. I'll be like, hey, guys, I've got a great idea. I want to just throw this together.

Peggy Dean (18:28)

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Stacy Bloomfield (18:29)

And they're like, okay, Usually Stacy's gut is usually right. So I try not to, like, take it too much advantage of it. But there's that where I'm happy and doing the things that I care about. And then there's the other world where, like, I'm trying so hard to fit into a specific mold of what I'm supposed to be.

Peggy Dean (18:48)

Right.

Stacy Bloomfield (18:48)

In fact, the second year, I started teaching not to take your story, make it. This is what I. No, no.

Peggy Dean (18:53)

This is why I love you, Stacy. Because when we met, I'm like, no, you have the same brain I do. And you understand that there is power in impulsivity. And I don't care what anybody says. When you're excited, you're excited.

Stacy Bloomfield (19:05)

It's so true. So I actually have this as my screensaver on my phone. I'm a generator if you're into, like, the human design kind of thing. So what it says for me to see this every day, focus on what's meaningful to you instead of what you think is meaningful to other people. It's how you tap into the energy that will raise your whole life up. Literally. I look at that on my phone every single day. And the reason I think about that is because about the second year, I started online teaching. So my first year of teaching, I went in with a bang. I'd never taught before. I launched a course. 500 people signed up. I taught the course from my bed. And I couldn't film a course properly. I didn't even know how. I literally was just like, I'm going to do this thing. And I pre sold it because I was teaching about things I care about. And so I taught this course, and it was just, like, put together. It was really good. But I literally was, like, so casual. And then what happened is I got the best feedback ever because Stacy is so relatable. She's so normal. I still can do this, which was great. But then year two, and I was like, okay, it's time to be buttoned up, Stacy. I recorded the second course with a videographer, which is great. Less work for me, but I wore, like, a black blazer. I look, it's like, hi, I'm business person Stacy Bloomfield, and I don't wear blazers on the regular. Going to be bright colored and fun. I was just so buttoned up because I was like, this is what's been presented to me. It is never being vulnerable, being super polished, never sharing something until it's way in your rearview mirror, which I am like, Peggy, like, I am a serial. Like, oh, I want to talk and tell someone something in the best way possible. In that year, I was super sad. It was like, My saddest year of doing online education because I had just fully invested myself financially and with marketing and everything into this Polish Stacy. And in truth, Polish Stacy can't keep going. I've got to be this version of me and listen to my intuition. Just like, that's what you've done. And that's why I think you've had so much fun with your career and other people have so much fun learning with you.

Peggy Dean (21:03)

Thank you. Yeah. No, it's absolutely true. Because if you put on the blazer, right, because you have so much invested in it, then a launch feels like pressure. It feels like, okay, I mean, it always feels like pressure.

Stacy Bloomfield (21:16)

Let's be real.

Peggy Dean (21:17)

But it feels different. It doesn't feel like I'm connecting with people. I sense their excitement. It's more like, okay, they're excited. Are they going to enroll? Like, it becomes a different way to think about it. And I just. With mine recently, it's been so fun because it's just like, I just want to have a conversation, and I'm going into it, like, you do not need to do this. You don't need to enroll in this. I still want to give you this tip because it's going to totally change your workflow. That's truthfully, at the beginning of everything, the reason why I started. You know, obviously, I do it for a living. Obviously, I have to make some money. But guess what? Like, your people. Oh, that's what I was going to say. That's what I was going to say. That was my second mistakes that I made was not identifying who my people were specifically in the beginning. That was something that was hard because it's like, I don't want to choose a niche. I want to cater to everybody. If you don't know who you're talking to, you're talking to nobody. So that was something I learned way too far, too late. Now I know exactly who I want to talk to. And it doesn't mean you're not talking to more people. Those people will be there, but you always have a focus. So just trust hearing that every time that you hear it. We don't have time to go into talking, all the reasons why, but just trust it. Like, learn from somebody else's mistakes, AKA literally everyone who always tells you to know who you're talking to.

Stacy Bloomfield (22:34)

Well, it's like that with online education. It's like that with art products because, you know, I help a lot of artists try to sell products and license their art and, like, oh, well, I love everything. I love everything. And everyone. And it's like, well, you can have all those things and make as much art as you want to, you know, but if you're going to sell something, you can't talk to everybody. You need to know exactly who the person is who's going to buy that tea towel. I was at a business meeting recently with a bunch of men and none of them knew what tea towels were. And I was like, you're clearly not my audience. You don't even know. Clean your counters. I bet you don't do that. I'm glad that I didn't spend a lot of time, like hypothetically trying to sell them my product, because it's hard to sell something whenever it's not the ideal person. In fact, you will find yourself trying to turn yourself inside out to try to convince someone that your product is perfect for them, and it's going to exhaust you. And when it's the right fit, it's like, magnetic.

Peggy Dean (23:24)

You're going to attract as much as you repel, you want to repel as hard as you attract. It's the magnet situation. You want one or the other. And so when somebody is like, certain that it's a no for them, this person over here is certain it's a yes for them. Otherwise everyone is just floating and your magnet doesn't really work.

Stacy Bloomfield (23:40)

We want our magnets to work, dagnabbit. And in truth, you help so many people because you know exactly who you're talking to, which probably makes the creation more fun. And it actually makes me think about the fact that you not only make courses, but you help other people who are where you are at, figure out if they want to do online education, what might be their version of that. It doesn't have to be one size fits all. Talk about that.

Peggy Dean (24:02)

While I have a ton of courses, I've also seen people grow. I've seen people get more and more passionate. And some people also have that same passion and they want to share it. And I think that after having all of these ups and downs, and I've tried recording in low quality, not from my bed, but I'll try that next. Sounds promising. But also in a studio, like, I've done all of it. I've found what works for me, the happy mediums and the things that I would pay attention to, their musts and then the desires and like the secondaries and all those things, because people have asked me, you know, it's like, well, what do you think about teaching on this? I'm thinking about teaching my first class And I'm like, well, before we get there, I just want to run down this and this and this with you because I think that I can't help but I'm like, let's give you a structure that's like, truly you, that you can make this engaging from start to finish. That doesn't keep anybody in lull stage. That keeps people excited. So let's talk about this. What does this look like? What do you want to teach? I'm like, let's structure it now. What supplementary content are you going to do? What are the action steps here? And so it's been really fun to watch. And so I did launch a course called Creative Course Lab that is specifically to have these pillars in place that are uniquely yours. Your signature framework. Do you define what that looks like? It's structured enough to give you every single step, but loose enough to celebrate that you're an individual. If you see people that show up again and again and you think, oh, that's, you know, they're successful, I see them all the time. They are successful at what they do because that's what they chose to do. So when you see my face pop up specifically for education purposes, that's what I'm choosing to do. And that's why you see my face over and over again. That doesn't mean that that defines your success. It doesn't mean that that is meant for everybody. I see people that are like, well, I know I need to do videos and I know I need to do this. And I'm like, why do you feel like that's what you need to do? And it's like, well, that's how I'm going to be able to blah, blah, blah. And it's like, no, no, no, that's what you think, because that's what you're seeing. But you're seeing that because those people are catering their content to you. It doesn't mean that that's your path. That's like, that served your purpose. And now that you're ready to take off, maybe pivot and look at licensing. Look at, you know, how you can manage. Like, Stacy has a class on art licensing. Like, that's a great next step. You don't have to show up in this way if you're not passionate about it. But when you are, and you know that in your gut and your core, and you can't wait to share that passion, like, absolutely look into it, I do have a full program that will get you start to finish and you will never have to take Another resource for courses ever again. Because you're going to feel so confident in the courses that you put in the world. But if it's not for you, like, listen to your gut. You don't have to show up in this way.

Stacy Bloomfield (26:57)

You don't, but you know, if you do. What's important here is online education could look a lot of different ways. It can look like skill care classes, which I'm sure Peggy's program can give you structure to be successful there. I teach this big eight week course. There's so many ways to do it, but what's important is running it through your own filter. Why am I pursuing it? It's because I see someone else over there pursuing it? Or is it because I truly in my gut, know that online education or sharing something I'm passionate about, maybe even more, is where I'm headed. And if so, like Peggy, your program is maybe the right fit for so many people. I know it opens up for enrollment on June 20th, right?

Peggy Dean (27:35)

Yeah. And I have a free challenge running just before that that's going to help define, like, what that would look like before you actually get into the nitty. Like, you're going to be able to identify what a skeleton of a framework would look like for your particular topic, which I'll just say again, you only need to know more than a beginner or you only need to know more than the level that you're teaching. People are always concerned that, like, well, I'm not a pro. Guess what? We're never gonna be. I mean, maybe we are, but like, let's be real. We're always learning. I just think if we have excitement about it, and you also do not have to be extroverted like a Peggy or a Stacy, there's room for you. You're going to teach it your own unique way.

Stacy Bloomfield (28:16)

Oh, Peggy, I just. I love talking with you. You always remind me that you can just have fun, do things your way. I mean, you work incredibly hard. I know what a hard worker you are. I know what it's taken to build up that amount of programs because, like, I don't know anyone else who's made that many courses personally. Like, you may have the most courses of anyone I've ever met in my whole life. De facto, I would say you are the expert in our creative industry for helping people who are interested in any form of online education get closer to their goal. And so with that, I really encourage everyone to check out Peggy's program. It opens for enrollment on June 20, and the free challenge will be coming up and where can everyone find you Online?

Peggy Dean (28:55)

Peggy Yeah, so everything one stop shop, thepigeon letters.com anything that you want to know off of that will be linked off of that. But my website is fun so come on over and just look.

Stacy Bloomfield (29:07)

Peggy, thank you so much for joining me today. And everyone, thanks for listening. Be sure to tune in for the next Art plus audience episode and I'll talk to you later. Bye. Thanks so much for tuning in. Hey, could you do me a favor? Could you subscribe to this podcast and then share it with one of your best art friends? I'd really appreciate it. And then head on over to Instagram and follow me at the leverage your art account and you can keep up with all of our future episodes. Thank you so much for your support. It means everything to have you here listening and learning.

Peggy Dean (29:40)

Bye.