Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (1:25)

Even Veronica's name, Veronica Lodge, is bursting with Massachusetts pride.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (1:30)

Her name originated from Veronica Lake, who was an actress in the 40s and a Massachusetts senator, Henry Cabot Lodge.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (1:38)

Okay, point for New England. So Jasmine Aguilera is like an unaccredited Archie comics expert. She is a mega fan.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (1:46)

Archie is so important to me. It shaped who I was. I saw Archie comics in a grocery store aisle. I'm sure a lot of people have that same experience. And, you know, I was learning to read when I first saw those Archie comics. They helped me learn to read. So it really holds a very special place in my heart.

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (2:02)

Yeah.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (2:03)

So you might be wondering, okay, so I like Archie. This is all kind of interesting. Why are we talking about Archie on a fashion podcast?

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (2:09)

Buckle up. Okay, so I have loved Betty and Veronica fashion since I was a little kid, and I aspired to be just like Veronica, both as a source of my fashion inspiration and also a source of so much of my personality. If you loved Betty and Veronica fashion as a child, you know what I'm talking about.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (2:26)

I know exactly what Jasmine is talking about. I also loved Archie comics as a kid, even though it started out kind of by default. When I was growing up, Archie comics were the only reading material in the grocery store checkout aisle that were for kids that had any girls in it. Like the rest of the comic books mostly had monsters and superheroes. And then I really kept reading Archie comics because the characters were wearing the most extraordinary, interesting clothes. I was just mesmerized by them. I adored them. And Jasmine and I weren't alone. This is the argument we want to make that it was actually Archie comics as much as Barbie dolls or fashion magazines that shaped generations of style. And it was through a series of little accidents and coincidences that turned Betty and Veronica into pretty serious fashion models who meant so much to so many people. Which we will tell you about after the break.

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Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (5:48)

Something that drew me to Archie over the comic books that featured superheroes or whatever was that they featured normal teenagers all just hanging out together, doing their normal teenage thing. But when Archie Comics first came out, these teenagers were not considered normal, because teenagers were not considered normal, period. Like, teenagers as a concept did not yet exist.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (6:13)

It's really hard to believe, but even before in the 1910s and before that, you were a child and then you were an adult, and there was no in between.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (6:21)

When Archie Comics first started in the 1940s, teenager was not a word. Teenagehood was not a stage of life.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (6:30)

But then, because of the Depression, people started to realize, like, it's better for my kids to stay in school longer. Public schooling was starting to expand, so this whole new class of almost adults started to spark up.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (6:41)

And then, especially after World War II, young adults didn't have to enlist anymore. It was like this new period of extended youth where you were sort of an adult, but you didn't have responsibilities. Like, what was this?

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (6:54)

And those almost adults were a big portion of the population. And so marketing started to pay attention. Hey, wait a minute. And so what followed after that was this new awareness of this demographic that hadn't existed before, which was teenagers.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (7:09)

The word teenager came into mainstream culture in 1944. Archie Comics were before that. They came out in 1941. Archie Comics arguably helped shape the culture of what it means to be a teenager. So we're going to invite a very special guest to help explain where Archie came from. Joel Christian Gill. Joel Christian Gill is the chair of the Masters in Fine Arts in Visual Narrative at Boston University. Professor, cartoonist, historian. Hi, Joel.

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (7:43)

Hi, everybody.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (7:44)

So Archie Comics, where did they come from? Why were these the only comics that featured women?

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (7:51)

Misogyny.

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (7:52)

I'm sorry.

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (7:53)

I had something in my throat.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (7:54)

Okay. But what would one day become Archie was started by this publisher, John Goldwater.

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (7:59)

When Goldwater started, they started as a magazine publishing company first, and they decided that they were going to buy old magazines, and then they were going to resell them overseas, and it was going to be a huge deal. And for three months, it was amazing. Then World War II happened, so they had to switch. And so they switched, and they created a superhero comic. Because superhero comics Were happening. We're getting popular, super popular.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (8:22)

Everything was superhero comics.

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (8:23)

Fun fact. Most people don't know this, but when Superman became popular, the only person that knew Superman was popular was the accountant, because he could go through and see that the book. This is the book that was actually the most popular. And once he found that out, he immediately left and created Wonder Man. So. But actually, there's a whole series of comic covers where you see Archie the superhero. I forget his name, but I think it was the Guardian. He was a superhero.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (8:48)

The character that would become Archie started as a superhero.

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (8:52)

He's actually the one. The reason that Captain America has a round shield, because he had a triangle shield. And they were too close together. And so they had to give Captain America the round shield.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (9:01)

But somehow there's a shift to making a comic about a quote unquote, normal, relatable character, similar in age to what they imagined the reader would be.

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (9:10)

And then they decided to create Archie, which I think his original name, his nickname was Chip originally. That's what they were calling it. And that comic took off like the superhero comic was not nearly as popular. It's like it fits a lane. So soldiers come back from. From World War II. And some of you might be familiar with this, but that was what they were sending in care packages. They were sending comics. And then when they came back after reading comics and learning and loving comics, it's like crime comics and all these different types of comics. And Archie just fits a vibe for a specific type of person.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (9:37)

This specific type of person, this new creature called a teenager, wasn't supposed to

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (9:43)

be the biggest thing in the company. Took it over within about five years.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (9:45)

Tim Hanley is a historian of comics and author of Betty and the Leading Ladies of Riverdale.

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (9:51)

I think when people think of Archie, they think of these teenagers having, like, typical adventures. I'm using air quotes because they're not typical. They're white, upper middle class teenagers and

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (10:01)

Archie was kind of buffoonish teenage antics.

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (10:05)

Archie and Jughead have any antics. Betty kind of mooning over him.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (10:08)

What's really interesting about very early Archies is Betty is just kind of there to be the person who's in love with Archie and doesn't have any kind of extra character design.

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (10:19)

Betty shows up first. She's in the first panel of the first story of Archie ever. Betty has just moved into town and Archie is standing on a bicycle, riding it down the road to impress her. Then he walks on a fence and falls off and, like goes through a painting. Her father has it's a whole slapstick situation that grows from there. So Betty's gaga for Archie from panel one. And for about six months, Archie would just screw things up left and right. And Betty would be, oh, it's okay, Archie, you're so wonderful. And it was fun, but it was fairly one note. There wasn't a lot of conflict. So a few months in, they introduced Veronica.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (10:48)

Veronica comes on the scene a couple months later, and she's supposed to be the antagonist. She's a source of conflict. She's the symbol of a dying debutante culture from the gilded age that came to small town America.

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (10:59)

She moves from out of town, she's wealthy, all the boys go crazy for her. Archie is like middle class. Veronica's quite rich, so he can't afford to take her to the fancy restaurants or all the expensive places she wants to go. And it creates a new dynamic in the comics where Archie has to work now, so there's a lot more struggle. And so while Betty was there originally, within a few years, she kind of fades into the background. Then Veronica is really the dominant one for the next little while until they reach a sort of equilibrium.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (11:22)

And even though the two leading women were now equally attractive to Archie and both vying for his attention, for a while, Betty and Veronica did not interact with each other.

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (11:31)

Betty and Veronica barely spoke to each other at all. Archie was the focus, and they sort of revolved around him. They were satellites to Archie.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (11:37)

You, Archie.

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (11:38)

Gee, Veronica.

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (11:39)

Hello, Veronica.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (11:40)

They used to just not pass the Bechdel test. And you can hear this. Archie used to have a radio show in 1943.

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (11:47)

Well, Betty, floor school's almost out.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (11:49)

Yes. How many more days?

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (11:51)

Well, I haven't figured it out exactly,

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (11:53)

Betty, but roughly Speaking, there's about 41

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (11:55)

hours, 15 minutes and 30 seconds of

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (11:57)

school time left this term.

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (11:59)

Then by putting them together, by letting them sort of develop a friendship, they began to grow as characters in ways they hadn't intended from the start.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (12:06)

But it wasn't intentional to put Betty and Veronica together and to make them friends and to actually turn them into in depth characters. Archie comics sort of accidentally became kind of feminist.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (12:18)

Not only was it one of the first comics that had women, but women

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (12:21)

actually doing things, women having friendships, women having hobbies and interests. And why?

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (12:29)

It wasn't trying to make a statement. It was trying to fill a comic book.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (12:32)

These comic artists had to fill so many pages each week.

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (12:36)

By the mid-1940s, they were putting out, I think, at least four or five of them. And it was only Growing from there. And comics back in the day were about 72 pages long. It was a lot of material.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (12:45)

Let's reuse old storylines. Very easy to just repurpose old story lines from Archie and Jughead and repurpose them for Betty and Veronica.

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (12:54)

So it was these two female characters taking on what was a typically male story. Just having the girls there, having them read their own stories, was completely accidental, but massive for the characters and for the world of Archie as a whole.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (13:05)

After all, the gender rules were still kind of being written in a way, like, there wasn't yet etiquette around what teens were or what they did yet. So, yeah, why not give the gals the boy storylines?

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (13:16)

Betty and Veronica could do what Archie and Jughead did. They could have all these crazy antics. They're terrible cooks. They could play sports and just get into all these activities.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (13:24)

This was accidentally the first step in bringing fashion to the forefront, was bringing women to the forefront. Betty and Veronica become these main characters. And clothing became integral to the plot of many of these stories. In part because in a lot of early Archie comics, there was a lot of gender bending.

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (13:45)

In the 1940s, there were a lot of stories that involved cross dressing. There'd be a dance competition, and Veronica would put on some pants and a sweater and would dance with Betty, and they'd win the contest. And, like, Archie would have to dance with Reggie, and it would go terribly. This was a fairly common storyline. It happened several times over several years.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (14:01)

Archie was kind of helping define what the teenager was. And at the moment, it was defining this kind of new freedom for teens until. Dun dun, dun. The Comics Code. How should we talk about the Comics Code?

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (14:17)

Joel? How should we talk about the Comics Code? It's a. It's a moral panic. In line with. Do y' all remember when DND was causing demons to kill people in the 80s? Right? It's like. It's just like that. It's. Hip hop is a. Is a moral panic. There's all these moral panics. And after World War II, like, I was saying, that soldiers come back and they want to. They want to read comics. Now they're. Everybody's into comics, right? You make crime comics. They make psychological thrillers. They make detective novels. Batman actually started as a detective story. Like, all of these things are coming out for the soldiers who were used to reading comics, right?

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (14:48)

Comic books are an important contributing factor in many cases of juvenile delinquency.

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (14:55)

Fred Wertham was basically a pseudoscientist. He was actually a civil rights activist. As well, and he thought that this was. Was going to help black children in Harlem. Most of the studies were done with black children in Harlem.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (15:05)

And so getting rid of comics would help.

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (15:07)

Yeah, children in Harlem. Yeah, getting rid of comics. Right. Yeah, that's what's going to help the children. Right. So he started, he writes this book called Seduction of the Innocent, where he basically uses his faulty research to say that comics were creating juvenile delinquency. There is an amazing video of one of the senators who was involved in this. He's like smoking a cigarette and he's like talking and he's like, comics are destroying America. And then it goes away. And it shows these little boys and they're all reading these crime. These comics. And it's like this, this kid, he's reading a crime comic, and he puts the crime comic, he pulls out a knife and he starts stabbing a tree. It is wild.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (15:39)

And you said a senator. This one.

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (15:41)

Yeah.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (15:41)

This is a senate.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (15:41)

This went to the Senate.

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (15:42)

This was a Senate hearing.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (15:44)

I mean, that's not that crazy anymore.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (15:47)

It's true.

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (15:49)

So, yeah, so. And so with that, the new moral panic was comics. Right. And so the Comic Code authority was created by John Goldwater.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (15:58)

Yes, John Goldwater, the president of Archie

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (16:00)

Comics and a number of other people in the comics industry because they were trying to get ahead of censorship.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (16:05)

The Comics code passed in 1954.

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (16:08)

And so they did things like, you can't have vampires in comics. You can't have horror. You can't even use the word horror. There's no sex, no drugs, no rock and roll. Which fun fact leads directly to the underground comics, which are all sex, drugs and rock and roll.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (16:20)

It's like directly creates Mad Magazine.

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (16:22)

Yeah, and it directly creates Mad Magazine. Another fun fact. Mad Magazine is called Mad Magazine because they did not want to be connected to comics. And so they changed the name from Mad. So it should be Mad Comics, but it's not. It's called Mad Magazine.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (16:35)

And the Comics Code authority would label specific comics with a specific label that would appear in the corner. Not that Archie comics were particularly risque or violent in any way, but they, the artists were asked to raise necklines

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (16:52)

in terms of what characters can wear, the ways genders were depicted.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (16:56)

Tim Hanley says, after the Comics Code, all that cross dressing stuff was out.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (17:00)

Betty and Veronica suddenly lost a whole bunch of agency that they had in the 40s. And in the 50s, suddenly they only wanted to cook.

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (17:06)

Teenage girls had to be good marriage material.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (17:09)

And suddenly they became really boy crazy. And then suddenly they Stopped playing sports or being interested in running for class president. All during this era of this moral panic around Comics Code Authority, there were

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (17:21)

antics, but within these confines, it narrowed down. It took probably 20 years to start to get out of it, and then probably another 20 to really leave it all behind.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (17:32)

So Betty and Veronica have this period where they're good marriage material, during which they're wearing a lot of very pretty, kind of boring dresses. But they start to leave this era and get kind of interesting with the arrival of a new artist into Archie comics named Dan DeCarlo.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (17:50)

And he's interesting because Dan DeCarlo, before he came to Archie Comics, drew a lot of pinups, Especially during the World War II. He would draw pinups for soldiers, and obviously they want to see some skin. So he would draw these very seductive pinups.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (18:05)

Dan DeCarlo drew gorgeous, very curvy women. Betty and Veronica are quite pinup like, truly.

Bill Morrison (Author) (18:12)

I grew up reading Archie comics, and of course, I didn't know who Dan DeCarlo was. I mean, as a kid, I remember one of the reasons I liked Archie Comics is I liked the way the girls looked. I'm not gonna deny that.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (18:27)

I'm not gonna deny it either. I get it. I'm gay. Maybe it had an influence on me. I don't know.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (18:33)

Jasmine was gaying out with Bill Morrison, who wrote a book that's clearly a nod to Seduction of the Innocent, that book that started up the whole Comics Code moral panic.

Bill Morrison (Author) (18:44)

I wrote a book titled Innocence and the art of Dan DeCarlo.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (18:48)

At the same time that Dan DeCarlo was drawing pinups for his fellow soldiers during World War II. He was also one of the soldiers getting comics in care packages.

Bill Morrison (Author) (18:58)

When he went into the service, Archie was kind of just starting. So he probably read Archie comics overseas over in France. Might have been one of the reasons he thought to approach them when he got back.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (19:10)

Back in civilian life. Dan DeCarlo drew for a lot of different places.

Bill Morrison (Author) (19:14)

It was in the early 50s. He was doing a lot of different projects for different publishers, one of them being Archie.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (19:21)

He drew these cute, sexy girls, and it was definitely kind of horny, but it was almost in a like, Bugs Bunny way, like, awooga. Like it wasn't X rated, not doing

Bill Morrison (Author) (19:30)

anything adult or, you know, no nudity. But he was working for these publishers that were putting out very child friendly books, but he was drawing very seductive women within those books.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (19:41)

And at a certain point, he had to tone down a little bit because of the Comics Code authority.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (19:48)

But even after the Comics code. The pinups were able to continue because they didn't just have sex appeal. Dan decarlo gave them fashion appeal.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (19:59)

So this, again, this new market of teenage girls were looking at these pinups. They appealed both to men and women who. Women loved to read it because they would look at it for fashion advice.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (20:09)

There were pinups of Betty and Veronica just posing in different outfits. And again, this was a way to be like, let's fill some pages with one big picture of a great outfit. Great way to fill space.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (20:20)

They decided to do these fashion pages. I think it started in 1947 pages of 1 outfit, just full pinup pages. There are no storylines. It's just here's how they look. And they were wildly popular. Simplicity patterns would run their patterns inside of Archie comics. For women who saw these pinups and thought, oh, I actually really like that dress. And then they would make that dress with the simplicity patterns that were inside.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (20:43)

And it wasn't just Archie comics that featured pretty girls wearing great clothes.

Bill Morrison (Author) (20:47)

He was getting a lot of work from Marvel, doing all these books that had fashion models as their stars.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (20:54)

This was like a genre of comic books. These model comics.

Bill Morrison (Author) (20:57)

My friend Irma, Millie the model, Sherry

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (21:00)

the showgirl, they were a specialty of Dan De Carlo.

Bill Morrison (Author) (21:03)

All the fashion model centric comics that Dan was doing in the 50s, you'll see a lot of the current fashion trends, and that just made sense. You've got a character who's a model. She's going to have to stay current.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (21:17)

But Dan DeCarlo had a secret weapon behind his fashion knowledge.

Bill Morrison (Author) (21:22)

It was through his wife Josie, that he started really paying attention to what people were wearing. By the way, if you recognize that name. Josie was also one of Dan's creations, Josie and the Pussycats. And he named the character after his wife.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (21:36)

Josie decarlo was born Josette Dumont. She was a French citizen, and she and Dan met in Belgium shortly after the Battle of the Bulge. He barely spoke French, but he would draw cartoons to talk to her.

Bill Morrison (Author) (21:49)

Back in the 50s, his wife Josie was quite the fashion plate, and she worked at Lord and Taylor in Manhattan. She worked at a makeup counter. So she was very into fashion.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (22:01)

And so thanks to Josie, Dan DeCarlo developed a gym genuine interest in fashion. He really was fascinated by it.

Bill Morrison (Author) (22:08)

Dan told me that at one point he had subscriptions to all the teen fashion magazines. So he was really paying attention. He was very conscientious about keeping them up to date.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (22:18)

Archie comics eventually lured Dan DeCarlo in house. They took him away from Millie the model and sherry the showgirl and nellie the nurse and all his other work drawing sexy girls in beautiful clothes. And the way archie comics convinced dan decarlo to drop all this other work for other comic book companies, mostly marvel, was that they basically let dan decarlo do his own thing. They were like, you can just draw archie comics however you want.

Bill Morrison (Author) (22:42)

The books that dan drew were selling better than some of the other books. So they said, from now on, you can do it your way.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (22:50)

Decarlo soon set the new house style at archie comics, and part of that house style became style. All the artists and cartoonists, by necessity, had to consult magazines and stay on top of fashions.

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (23:05)

I don't know if you guys know this. There was a time before pinterest, again,

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (23:07)

Professor Joel christian gill.

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (23:09)

So it wasn't like, you can go online and, like, look up a picture of a dress that's ankle height, right? You actually had to go through women's magazines, and you had to go through fashion magazines of the time period and find those images. They would trace things, they would copy them, and they had files for field with lots and lots of images of clothes for whatever character you're looking for.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (23:28)

So ultimately, dan decarlo and all the cartoonists at archie were reading seventeen magazine and all the latest glossies and bringing current trends to little kids. And not only that, they were reinterpreting the most recent styles with much louder, bolder colors.

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (23:46)

This is like a bold blue dress. It's kind of looks good on them.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (23:49)

Comic historian Tim henley, again, in the

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (23:51)

40s, 50s, 60s, well into the 70s, you, couldn't get the color gradation you see in comic books now.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (23:56)

So the colors had to be really bright and overt. No subtle hues or demure tones.

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (24:02)

Here it was betting veronica was big, bright patches of color, and that's all you could do.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (24:06)

And I can't help but imagine that seeing all these bold, modern styles influence what people wore and what they wanted, Especially because these comics were so widely read, because this is something that was very important about Archie comics. They went beyond the comic book shop.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (24:26)

Comic book stores is where you would find a lot of superhero comics. But archie comics were recognizing, hey, only dudes are going over there. Maybe we should find a way to connect to the women that have been enjoying the fashion pages.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (24:41)

So archie comics found a new venue.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (24:43)

Archie comics started to show up in grocery stores. That's where women were shopping and where children would see them. And they weren't the only comics that would show up in grocery Stores, but they were the longest running ones.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (24:55)

And there was a different format of Archie comics that would sell in supermarkets. They were thicker books and they were called Digests. They were padded out with old stories from Archie's archives.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (25:07)

Digests were revolutionary and also really played into the. Let's be as efficient as possible with our backlog. We can mix it up. So you'd see a story from the 1940s, a story from the 1960s, a story from the 1990s, and then there's some like, Jughead goes Punk and he has some really 80s haircut.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (25:26)

And so when the Digest started coming out, that's when you get like a bunch of different stories together from across time. So when you get the thin, like, comic book, correct me if I'm wrong here.

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (25:35)

Floppies.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (25:35)

The floppies, that's what they call them.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (25:37)

Or single issue.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (25:38)

Yeah, single issue floppies. These were like the current cutting edge fashions. And then you get the big chunky Digest, and then you were looking back at all kinds of fashions from across time.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (25:50)

Yeah, that's right. Immediately when the Digest started showing up in grocery stores, that was the 70s. And they immediately had storylines from the

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (25:57)

40s in these Digest magazines. When they printed old comics right next to the new ones. It was an amazing compendium of vintage fashion that I was exposed to. I think they've actually had a much bigger, more subtle impact. I mean, it was kind of the first place I ever saw what fashion looked like in the 40s or the 50s.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (26:19)

I would stack digests in my bathroom. Still do. And my mom and my stepdad. And people would go in there. My mom would come out. I'm from a Mexican family. And so she doesn't have a lot of these cultural references. And she'd ask me specifically, like, what does swell mean? And with. Without any kind of context. And it was like this beautiful connection point. And that really kind of goes to this other part of how Archie affected fashion. There was this character arc for Veronica. She went from being a rich, spoiled girl to this fashion diplomat.

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (26:53)

She would go to Europe all the time. Like, go to Rome, go to Paris.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (26:56)

Tim Hanley again.

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (26:57)

And through that would teach the reader about the fashion and often, sometimes what it means and why it's important.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (27:02)

She goes to Russia, and in exchange for learning about the democratization of Russia, she would give the ambassador a makeover.

Tim Hanley (Comics Historian) (27:10)

And if you were just reading it quickly, it would maybe seem like a little shallow. But this is early days of democracy in Russia. I think at this point, you've got A democracy now, you're open to the West.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (27:20)

But I also think that these were a function of, you know, as Archie grew and grew and hired more women writers, there was, you know, I think fashion was often a punchline in early Archie comics. Like, oh, you girls, you like, buy so much stuff. And then you get like Veronica, the fashion diplomat, which is kind of awesome actually.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (27:37)

And it was a way to teach people. I mean, I learned what the traditional religious wear of the Tonganese. I think it's Tonganese of people from Tonga, they're Tongans, what they would wear. And I'm reading that like as a 10 year old little girl and suddenly I'm very well versed in this culture that I would have never been exposed to before.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (27:56)

This world of fashion. This portal opened for so many kids who might have never found it otherwise, who might have never thought they would be into fashion or even into comics.

Kayla (Cartoonist and Fashion Designer) (28:06)

The way that I discovered them was through the checkout line at my grocery store in shitville, Texas in 1996. If like little Kayla can find them, then anyone could find them.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (28:18)

Cartoonist Kayla either.

Kayla (Cartoonist and Fashion Designer) (28:20)

I identify as a cartoonist also essentially as a fashion designer. I think all cartoonists are. There's so much that is involved in being a cartoonist. We're essentially like one person filmmaking.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (28:33)

The cartoonist does everything. The sets, the props, the camera angles, the acting, and yes, the costumes.

Kayla (Cartoonist and Fashion Designer) (28:41)

Just nothing compares, at least in my mind, to the outfits in the world of Archie comics. And I have like thousands of images on my computer, a ton of Archie content.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (28:51)

It's this repository of fashion that Kayla can go and use for her own work and research. And they're this fascinating record of the latter half of the 20th century because they are candy colored reinterpretations of the latest styles from magazines. And Archie comics are also chronicles of readers fantasies because readers would submit descriptions of, of outfits and if they were lucky, the cartoonists at Archie Comics would draw them on Betty and Veronica and

Kayla (Cartoonist and Fashion Designer) (29:25)

have Veronica like wearing this like ridiculous cowgirl costume or something that like Ginny from Michigan invented. Just a fabulous idea. And I'm sure it was so exciting as like a little girl to see your fashion idea come to life like on the body of Veronica. When I was a kid, I just desperately wanted to be Veronica more than anything. I wanted her body, I wanted her wardrobe, I wanted her house, I wanted her life. And it's very fun. It's very fun. But also, you know, my relationship with Veronica and her wardrobe isn't entirely delightful. I mean, it definitely gave me some issues as A child.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (30:04)

I definitely remember looking at Betty and Veronica's perfect curves in the depths of puberty and being like, is that what a 16 year old is supposed to look like?

Kayla (Cartoonist and Fashion Designer) (30:13)

I think that was an early experience in feeling ugly in my body and fat in my body and tacky in my clothes.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (30:22)

Obviously, no 16 year old looks like Betty or Veronica. They're stylized pinups. This is not a realistic depiction of bodies, but kids don't know that this is an unintended consequence of Dan DeCarlo's style.

Kayla (Cartoonist and Fashion Designer) (30:34)

I mean, no woman has the actual waist of Veronica. I think it's the same with the Bratz dolls.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (30:39)

And yet for kids like Kayla, all of the good in Archie comics ultimately outweighed any of the bad.

Kayla (Cartoonist and Fashion Designer) (30:46)

Ultimately, it was a gift. I think Archie comics, because it, like, was one of the first things that showed me this, like, foil against my own world where I was like, oh, like, my room is dirty and like my clothes are dirty and hand me downs and, like, not cute and like, my world is not safe like Riverdale. So maybe there's something wrong with my world because at a very young age, I started to realize that something really bad, like I was something really bad was happening to me. And I think that Archie really, I don't know, gave me the first sort of ways of thinking about that.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (31:25)

Kayla depicted what happened in her childhood, surviving poverty and incest and childhood sexual abuse and violence in a graphic memoir called Precious Rubbish.

Kayla (Cartoonist and Fashion Designer) (31:37)

It's the story of my traumatic childhood told through the reappropriation of mid century children's comics.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (31:45)

And part of the children's comics that she incorporates into her memoir are the Archie comics fashion pinup pages.

Kayla (Cartoonist and Fashion Designer) (31:53)

My fashion pages. They are very, very direct replicas of the Betty and Veronica fashion pages.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (32:00)

Kayla has drawn almost the exact same outfits as Betty and Veronica, but with her own character's face on them.

Kayla (Cartoonist and Fashion Designer) (32:06)

And so often I'm just like, clipping and saving these fashion pages, both for my work, but also for my own personal attempts at making outfits. So, oh, my God, I think to this day I'm still trying to be

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (32:21)

Veronica, but that's the question. What would it mean to try to dress like Veronica today? If you look at their most fashionable years, the Dan DeCarlo period, Betty and Veronica would wear whatever is most currently in style in all the magazines. So what does it mean to actually dress in a modern version of Betty

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (32:44)

and Veronica, bringing a comic to life. Right?

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (32:48)

This was the challenge for the costume designer of Riverdale after the break. I hate paying rent. No one likes paying Rent. There's not really an upside to being a renter. Except for Bilt. Bilt is the loyalty program for renters that rewards you for your biggest monthly expense, which is probably your rent. And you have to pay your rent anyway, right? But Bilt makes it a little better because every rent payment earns you points that can be used towards flights, hotels, Lyft rides, and so much more. I love redeeming my built points on Lyft rides. It's like a magic trick. And now I notice when I'm walking around my neighborhood, I can see certain businesses have little plaques on them that say, you can redeem built points there. It makes me feel like I'm part of some secret society. And there are a lot of them. You can redeem built points at more than 45,000 restaurants, fitness studios, pharmacies, and other neighborhood partners. And now it's not just renters. Actually, now built members can earn points on mortgage payments. For the first time, join the loyalty program for renters at joinbuilt.com articles that's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com articles make sure to use my URL so they know I sent you joinbuilt.com articles. It's around the time of year where you are starting to get your taxes together. And if you're a small business owner like I am, you're like, oh my God, I got to get my 1099s to everybody. You just have a lot of stuff that you have to get together. When you're a small business, it's not just doing the work you do. You also have to manage everybody else. But you don't have to go it alone. Gusto can handle all of that for you. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one remote, friendly and incredibly easy to use so you can pay, hire, onboard and support your team from anywhere. I have worked on teams that use Gusto. It's just the one place you go for simple direct deposits, health benefits, 401k. You name it, Gusto has it there. It's simple and easy to switch to Gusto. Transfer your existing data and you get up and running fast and you don't pay a cent until you run your first payroll. Try gusto today@gusto.com articles and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll@gusto.com articles one more time. Gusto.com articles what do you need to make your house a home. I mean, yeah, maybe you need a bed, maybe you need wifi, but maybe, I don't know, that refrigerator that your space came with just doesn't fit your sauce collection. Or the bathroom needs many more shelves for your elaborate multi step skincare routine. Your space is a reflection of you. Make it fit your needs with Wayfair. From furniture and decor to organization solutions and outdoor essentials, Wayfair makes it easy to find exactly what fits your style and your needs. Like, I knew that I needed a dishwasher at my new place and it didn't come with a dishwasher. And Wayfair had a beautiful, affordable dishwasher that I didn't mind showing off on the counter. Plus, Wayfair has installation and assembly services that make it all a really seamless experience. Find furniture, decor and essentials that fit your unique style and budget. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every Home do you think Betty and Veronica had an influence in the world of fashion design?

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (36:39)

I do, for sure. I think it depends on where you grew up. For me, that was in Norway. I was from a small town, so I didn't dress often like that.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (36:50)

Rebecca Sorensen would grow up to become a costume designer and would costume of all things, the CW show Riverdale, which is based on Archie comics.

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (37:00)

When I got the opportunity to do costume designs for a series like that, I just knew that I had to do it.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (37:06)

Did you grow up reading Archie comics?

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (37:09)

I actually did, yes. Being in a region, that was something I always got in my stocking every Christmas. Archie comics.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (37:17)

And so what did you think of Archie comics growing up?

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (37:20)

I thought they were great. They were especially Veronica and Betty. They were my favorite, of course.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (37:27)

So would you say they were sort of your first exposure?

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (37:30)

That they were my first exposure for fashion? Yeah, absolutely. 100%.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (37:35)

Any Archie purist will immediately butt in here and be like, riverdale is so different from Archie comics. You can't possibly compare them. And it's true, the TV show has taken a lot of liberties. They've added in time travel and gangs and murder and a bunch of elements that are not in the comics. However, the way Rebecca approaches fashion is truly in the spirit of Dan DeCarlo. For one, fashion is an important and vital part of the entire enterprise.

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (38:04)

Fashion today in shows, depending on what production you're working on, is kind of like what they put on the screen to get the audience Because a lot of kids, or not kids but me, I watch shows sometimes. I'm drawn to them just due to the fashion. I want to see a show because of what the cast are wearing, and then you get attached.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (38:22)

It really is like the modern continuation of Archie in that way. And two, just like in the original Archie, the palette and colors are really important here. This was a great question from Jasmine.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (38:34)

The images of the clothes were restricted by specific parameters of the comic book. Did that factor into the color palette for those characters?

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (38:44)

We definitely did have a color world for them. Veronica was our purple girl. And then I would say that Betty was more than girl next door. Pink, blue, softer colors. She was very pastel y the first season. And then we just realized that that didn't really fit with her character.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (39:04)

In the TV show, Betty becomes a serial killer, among many other things. Big changes.

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (39:10)

Betty in the comics is very different than Betty on the show. You can change the colors of what she's doing. Darker colors. For any of the characters. Whatever journey they are going, that color arc kind of goes with it.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (39:26)

And I think the biggest way that Archie comics and Riverdale are similar is that they both innovated from a place of necessity. They both had to make a lot of stuff really quickly. Like the comic artists were drawing pinups and recycling plot lines to fill up pages. And Rebecca was coming up with exciting new outfits because she had to make big, elaborate wardrobes on a limited budget.

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (39:49)

Some of these shows have a lot of money, so much money. And of course, you can do fabulous stuff if you have money and you can shop everywhere on Riverdale. In the beginning, we didn't have much, so I had to add the extra to it and do half builds to get that excitement there.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (40:10)

What do you mean by builds?

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (40:11)

Builds. I mean that you make it from scratch.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (40:14)

And in Rebecca's case, half builds are augmenting and changing pre existing clothes.

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (40:20)

I would take a dress or a sweater or a shirt, and I would chop it up to the style that fit the character. And, you know, taking the sleeves out, making it a V neck, making it really tight, or using just the top of a dress and not the bottom of a dress.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (40:35)

Always working efficiently and cheaply and stylishly.

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (40:38)

I will tell you this. It was always on sale.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (40:41)

That was one.

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (40:41)

Always, always on sale. And also secondhand stores. And it could be something that was Gucci, Ralph Lauren. I messed with everything and anything.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (40:52)

I mean, how quickly were you working?

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (40:54)

Oh, we have long days in Riverdale, for sure. Sometimes something was built within a day

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (40:59)

and Sometimes in Riverdale storylines where characters would time travel, they would appear in outfits that were ripped exactly from the panels of Archie.

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (41:09)

My favorite part, honestly, was the few times that I got to really recreate their looks from the pages because that wasn't really the kind of show that we were doing at all times.

Bill Morrison (Author) (41:21)

Right.

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (41:21)

It was a mixture of the vintage with modern. We created our own little look.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (41:27)

The show was sort of the equivalent of reading an Archie digestion. It was a mixture of modern up to date fashion with retro fashion. I mean, no wonder people went wild for Riverdale's style.

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (41:40)

I was actually, to be honest, a little bit shocked how into the fashion that people were for Riverdale. All of a sudden, everybody wanting to buy it if it was affordable. So clearly whatever the audience liked because there were seven seasons of it.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (41:58)

Have you read Archie since you've worked on the show?

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (42:00)

Yes. I was just going through some of my Riverdale stuff not so long ago, and I did open up some of my Archie comics. So I do. I have my own little collection still that I'll always hold on to for sure.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (42:14)

Ugh, if only I'd saved my Archie comics. This episode was made by me and Jasmine Aguilera. Thanks, buddy. That was fun. Music by Ray Royal, Sasami and Lullatone. Thanks so much to Steven Davey at wbur, Yori Losordo at radiotopia, and Gina James at prx, and Tucker Stone at Fan o Graphics. And many thanks to another unaccredited Archie expert, Jordan Iannucci. If you would like to see the full unedited cut of our live event where Jasmine and I are wearing our matching Rachel Antonoff dresses from her Betty and Veronica collection. Jasmine will tell you what she thought of that collection.

Jasmine Aguilera (Boston Globe Producer and Archie Expert) (42:51)

When I heard that there was going to be a Betty and Veronica fashion line, I was like, first drop, I'm going to be that first one. And then I saw the actual designs and here's my rant.

Joel Christian Gill (Professor and Cartoonist) (42:59)

You guys tell us how you really feel.

Host (possibly Lindsey Metcalf) (43:02)

I'll have a link for you at articlesofinterest.substack.com

Rebecca Sorensen (Costume Designer for Riverdale) (43:08)

Radiotopia from PRX.