Sarah Gonzalez (2:11)

So she has six pieces of clothing that she, like, owns. And I was like, oh, my gosh, like, this is kind of like the moment when I was like, what? And she like, rents. She rents clothes and does like that kind of thing and thrifts and like swaps with her friends.

Aisha Baron Blatt (2:25)

I just, I know too much to want to have very much from this industry.

Sarah Gonzalez (2:30)

I know too much to want to have very much from this industry. I don't think she was, like, preaching like, this is what you should do, or that even she is the best consumer ever. I think the short answer was, basically, you cannot buy your way out of this problem of bad labor conditions, bad for the environment. Like, buying clothes is not gonna solve the problem.

Co-host / Narrator (2:58)

Not even if those clothes were made in the usa.

Sarah Gonzalez (3:02)

Who doesn't like the idea of things being made in America? I mean, not for, like, patriotic reasons. Just like, made in the USA has to be, like, the first step. Like, well, we're getting to better labor conditions and better for the environment. And she was like, why would you think that? Like, where did you get that from? And I was like, I don't know. Like, isn't that, like, the goal is made in the usa?

Co-host / Narrator (3:23)

Made in the USA is not the bastion of virtue that Sarah imagined it was and that I imagined it was, honestly. But I had no idea what the garment industry in the United States actually looks like.

Sarah Gonzalez (3:36)

I remember being like, where are the garment factories? Like, where do you. Like, I've never seen one. I've never been like, oh, look, they're making clothes there, like, ever. I used to live in New York City. I never, like, stumbled upon these things in any real way. And most of them are, like, tiny, tiny operations. Like, 76% of our garment factories in the US have less than 10 workers. Because they're, like, so hidden. You can't even. You don't even know where they are. Like, I went to some garment factories, and I would show up, and I would be like, this is. This is like a house on a street with all the other houses. But technically, it's a garment factory. But it just. You couldn't tell in New York. It's like some unit on top of a restaurant. They're so small that they're not. It's not like we make clothes here, you know, so they exist, but they're kind of, like, hidden. They're really, really difficult to find online. Like, really, they're quite hidden.

Co-host / Narrator (4:32)

But Sarah Gonzalez has pulled back the curtain on the US Garment industry for an episode of Planet Money. That I think is one of the best pieces of fashion journalism I have ever heard. I couldn't not share it with you.

Sarah Gonzalez (4:45)

I started working on it, setting out to, like, find a T shirt I can feel good about. And then all of a sudden, like, the conversation was, made in the usa. Made in the usa. And then I was like, wait, I don't know if this is the future we actually want.

Co-host / Narrator (5:00)

After the break.

Sponsor Voice (5:03)

Every idea starts with a problem. Warby Parker's was simple. Glasses are too expensive. So they set out to change that. By designing glasses in house and selling directly to customers, they're able to offer prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Warby Parker glasses are made from premium materials like impact resistant polycarbonate and custom acetate. And they start at just $95, including prescription lenses. Get glasses made from the good stuff. Stop by a Warby Parker store near you.

Co-host / Narrator (5:33)

In a world full of lycra and polyester, we can forget how nice, good quality material materials can feel on your skin. It really makes all the difference if you can wear cashmere and silk and you're like, cashmere and silk. Come on, Avery, I can't afford that. Yeah, you can. Actually. Quince has you covered with luxe essentials that feel effortless and look polished. Like, I love my silk skirt from Quince. It's so soft and buttery. It goes with everything. And then unlike fancy silk, which I would probably be afraid to wear in the world, I can toss my creamy, buttery silk skirt right in the washing machine. I can really just live in this stuff. Once you upgrade to high quality, soft, luxurious fabrics, you'll be like, I don't know if I can ever go back. Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Don't wait. Go to quince.comofinterest for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's q-u I n c e.com of interest to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com of interest.

Sarah Gonzalez (6:46)

Maria doesn't speak any English.

Maria (Garment Worker) (6:48)

No casino.

Sarah Gonzalez (6:49)

Not a word she says.

Maria (Garment Worker) (6:50)

No, no, no.

Sarah Gonzalez (6:54)

But she does know some, like sizes.

Maria (Garment Worker) (6:57)

She knows sizes small, mediano, large, extra large.

Sarah Gonzalez (7:02)

She knows label, ticket. All words related to her job manager.

Maria (Garment Worker) (7:07)

El, Mr. El Mr.

Sarah Gonzalez (7:10)

Okay, the boss. You just call him mister.

Maria (Garment Worker) (7:12)

Hola, Mrs. Mrs.

Sarah Gonzalez (7:14)

The boss is a girl. It's a Mrs.

Maria (Garment Worker) (7:18)

Paella.

Sarah Gonzalez (7:18)

Mrs. Over here, Mrs. Over there. She says, you gotta call your boss is Mr. Or Mrs. She says. And I'm like, this is all English, Maria. Oh, Mr. Mrs. Mrs. Maria is a garment worker in the U.S. one of not that many left. She's originally from Puebla, Mexico. Sweet potato city, she says, proud, nodding her head and making a little fist to herself when she says it. Maria is only 73 years old, but she has the presence of both a much older, comforting grandma and Somehow, also like this easily delighted kid. She has those little grandma sandals on and a little white flower tucked behind her ear. Whenever Maria sees a flower, she picks it up, puts it in her hair.

Maria (Garment Worker) (8:07)

There's a nina desa chiquita.

Sarah Gonzalez (8:09)

We've been doing this since you were a little girl. It makes her happy. Little flower in her hair. Maria has been in the US almost 30 years, and she has done the exact same job the entire time. She's a trimmer at a garment factory in Los Angeles. Half of what is left of the garment manufacturing industry in the US Is in Los Angeles, trimming. And when I ask Maria what a trimmer does in a US Garment factory, Maria reaches for my shirt. She tucks her hand under the bottom of my shirt at the hem, the back of her warm fingers on my bare stomach, the way only a grandma can do. That was so cute. She taps all the places on my top where a piece of thread would be left behind when a hem or a seam or a stitch ends. The side of my stomach at the side seam, my shoulder where a sleeve was sewn on, the back of my neck where the tag was sewn on. And when she's tapping me like this, it feels like something my grandma's sister would do, actually, like this blessing. And when I tell Maria, she looks at me like I understand. Maria's job is to cut off all the leftover thread. That's what a trimmer does all day, crouched over, just snip, snip, snip, snip, snipping loose threads. And as we're talking, Maria notices a little spot at the hem of my shirt where a tiny piece of thread was left over, like, half a centimeter. And she goes, I guess the trimmer working on this was in a rush, but then again, they're all in a rush. The shirt I'm wearing this day with Maria, made in Vietnam. My pants, made in Bangladesh. My bra, made in China. But the clothes that Maria works on are made in the US In Los Angeles, California. And a lot of people love the idea of making things like clothes in America. One of the Trump administration's goals is to bring manufacturing in general back to the U.S. but what people might picture when they think of a Made in America future might be different from the made in America we have now. When you start out as a garment worker, you often start out as a trimmer, like Maria. Then you might get trained on a sewing machine, but Maria never moved on to a machine. She likes being a trimmer, but really she just likes Having a job. She's liked every job she's ever had. She says you get many. Yeah, Si.

Maria (Garment Worker) (11:04)

Por dinero. Si.

Sarah Gonzalez (11:05)

When she first started out trimming, she was not the best. She'd nick the clothes, leave a little hole, but she'd show up with a little needle and thread set, hand, sew it real quick. You couldn't even tell the hole was there.

Maria (Garment Worker) (11:16)

She says, ni se no ta siqueira.

Sarah Gonzalez (11:19)

All right. And her boss loved that she could patch things up, actually. So much intelligence, he told her. But what the garment industry really prizes is speed. Speed more than anything else. And in the beginning, Maria was not so fast. She didn't know how to move the scissors, she said. So she'd do like 100 pieces of clothing a day. The boss would be like, friend, friend, faster, faster. And she did get fast. Okay, so when you first started, you were doing like 100 pieces a day, and now you're 700, 800 pieces. 800 pieces a day is a lot. It's a lot. I brought Maria a garment that was made in the US so we could talk about the work that goes into it. It's a purple sports bra from a fancy, pricey American brand. The nice thick cardboard tag says made in the USA. It sold for $62. And it's good quality, definitely. You can feel it in the fabric. But all Mania sees is the amount of loose threads that she would need to trim on a piece like this. There's not much. She says, okay, so you want something like this. This is an easy job for you. Oh, this is like potato chips, Like a piece of cake. You know, you can really make money doing the trimming on a bra like this.

Maria (Garment Worker) (13:10)

She says, por si quieres ganardinero tienes que se lor rapido.

Sarah Gonzalez (13:13)

If you want to earn money, you have to do it fast. Why?

Maria (Garment Worker) (13:15)

Porque por piesa.

Sarah Gonzalez (13:18)

Why does she have to work fast to get money? Maria gets paid by the piece, meaning the faster she works, the more pieces she does, the more money she makes. It's called peace rate pay, and it is very common in this industry. This is why Maria likes a nice, simple garment. Jeans. No. Oh, you don't like working on jeans? A button up shirt. Oh, the worst, the buttons, the buttons take a while. You have to trim all the loose thread. You don't make much money when there's buttons involved. Leftover button thread just really slows you down. You get paid by the quality, quantity you produce. Right. The number of garments you get through, and the pay. Well, when Maria started Out as a trimmer. In 1994, the pay was habilla de.

Maria (Garment Worker) (14:07)

Tres sentavos de cuatro centavos.

Sarah Gonzalez (14:10)

Tres centavos. $0.03 to $0.05. 3 to $0.05 per piece. That's the pay she started at. Maria would do 100 pieces a day, make $5, and she'd walk out happy, she says, feeling great about her $5 a day. Today, $0.15. Today. Today, Maria makes 15 to 16 cents per piece. And that can be okay pay if she gets a nice easy sports bra. But if she gets, I don't know, a jacket, a jacket with buttons, working as fast as you possibly can. Sometimes you do not get close to making minimum wage. Many times in her career, Maria has taken bundles of garments home, stayed up till 2, 3 in the morning, just trimming, trimming, trimming more and more pieces, trying to earn enough money to pay her bills. Like, it's so weird that they're like, yeah, sure, take the clothes here, the biggest brand. Like, take the clothes home and do work on it at home. I'm like, what if you get the clothes dirty at your house?

Maria (Garment Worker) (15:19)

Oh no, no, no, no, no.

Sarah Gonzalez (15:21)

She's like, oh no, no, no. You do not get the clothes dirty. And many workers who get paid by the piece will do this. Their whole families will work on the clothes together. Now sometimes when Maria gets a bundle of really time consuming garments, she will ask. She doesn't speak English, but she makes gestures to the boss, she says, and gets by just fine. She'll be like, mister, come, come look. Look how much trimming this garment needs.

Maria (Garment Worker) (15:54)

Okay, okay.

Sarah Gonzalez (15:57)

He'll be like, okay, you want an extra cent? No, two cents.

Maria (Garment Worker) (16:00)

She'll say, okay, okay, this is no problema.

Sarah Gonzalez (16:03)

And she's gotten it. But that would get her like an extra $10 for the day. Now, piece rate pay varies depending on what you're doing. The trimming is considered the finishing touches before a garment gets ironed and sent out to a store or brand. The person on the iron in LA might get 50 cents per garment. It's more dangerous. The person who sewed on the sleeves, did the bottom hem, maybe 12 cents.

Lynn Boo Rady (16:28)

Well, actually, that's better. When I started an industry over 30 years ago, we laughed and called it a penny a pocket. Because that's what they were paid for every pocket they would put on in.

Sarah Gonzalez (16:37)

The US in the US Lynn Boo Rady is the head of the department of Design and Merchandising at Oklahoma State University. But back in the 90s, Lynn actually also helped figure out what garment Workers working for US brands would be paid like, she'd watch them on the assembly line, sewing on a pocket, sewing on a seam.

Lynn Boo Rady (16:55)

Say you've got an 18 inch seam that you have to make. They pick up the two pieces, put it together, put it through the machine, cut the thread at the end and lay it down. 18 inch seam takes X amount of seconds to make. I would keep track of that cycle and write down the cycle, watching their movements, et cetera.

Sarah Gonzalez (17:16)

So you're standing there with a stopwatch like, okay, she did that in 30 seconds, now 35 seconds.

Lynn Boo Rady (17:21)

Yes. And I'm marking that down right in front of. Yes. It was very awkward. You didn't do it all the time. You did it to set the piece rate and to set the cost of the garment.

Sarah Gonzalez (17:30)

So you were. Your job was to determine how many cents to pay or to charge per piece.

Lynn Boo Rady (17:35)

I gave the data to the people. I gave the data to the people.

Sarah Gonzalez (17:38)

We're blaming you, Lynn. We're blaming you.

Lynn Boo Rady (17:40)

I know, I feel so terrible now, but, you know, this is just something that you're taught.

Sarah Gonzalez (17:45)

This is one of the main ways the garment industry in the US and globally has always paid pennies on the piece.

Lynn Boo Rady (17:52)

This is a long standing tradition, at least since the Industrial Revolution.

Sarah Gonzalez (17:56)

Piece rate pay was meant to incentivize workers to work harder so the people.

Lynn Boo Rady (18:01)

Working harder and producing more would make more money than the people who were working slower. And everyone said that's a fair system. Right.

Sarah Gonzalez (18:08)

But Lynn has some regrets about this now, and she says peace rate pay means workers often wreck their bodies, working as fast as they can.

Lynn Boo Rady (18:17)

When you stow, you have one one foot on a pedal, and so your weight tends to be on your other leg. Doing that for eight hours a day, 40 hours a week, perhaps, or more, that can cause issues.

Sarah Gonzalez (18:29)

We spoke to workers who have gotten burned, scarred, need surgery on their shoulder.

Lynn Boo Rady (18:34)

Doing the same arm repetitions every single day. And you do hundreds of these units.

Sarah Gonzalez (18:41)

Okay, wait, let me show you. So this is my garment that I bought.

Lynn Boo Rady (18:49)

Okay.

Sarah Gonzalez (18:49)

I show Lynn the purple sports bra. There's like a little keyhole right here.

Lynn Boo Rady (18:53)

Oh, that's nice.

Sarah Gonzalez (18:55)

Yeah.

Lynn Boo Rady (18:55)

Let me see the shoulders.

Sarah Gonzalez (18:56)

When I showed this garment to Maria, she could really only tell me about the part she does, the trimming. But Lynn can tell us how many people worked on a garment like this and how much they each got paid.

Lynn Boo Rady (19:07)

Okay. So you've got a front and a back, you've got the band along the bottom, and then you've got the piping pieces on the Armhole and the neckline. It's a very basic bra.

Sarah Gonzalez (19:19)

This is not a structured bra. There are no cups, no liner pads, no holes for the liners, no wire, nothing like that. And still Lynn says it could have taken 13 different people to make it, each doing a different step just to sew the bra.

Lynn Boo Rady (19:34)

I'm not talking about any of the prep work, like laying out the fabric, cutting out the fabric, bundling the pieces.

Sarah Gonzalez (19:41)

Would, like, a generous estimate. Be like, every single person who touched this piece got no more than 30 cents for what they did. Or 40 cents.

Lynn Boo Rady (19:52)

40 cents is probably too high.

Sarah Gonzalez (19:54)

40 cents is too high. Okay, so we'll go with 30 cents. Oh, 30 cents times 13 people would mean that potentially, theoretically, workers were paid $3.90 to make this bra. Yeah. Which was selling for $62.

Lynn Boo Rady (20:13)

Correct.

Sarah Gonzalez (20:14)

And this is like Made in America.

Maria (Garment Worker) (20:17)

Mm.

Sarah Gonzalez (20:17)

So this is like as good as it gets. Yep, this is. This is as good as it gets.

Lynn Boo Rady (20:23)

Well, in terms of people actually being paid.

Sarah Gonzalez (20:27)

Yeah, basically as good as it gets in terms of pay. Now, some countries like Canada, Japan, Belgium, actually do pay garment workers more than the US Does. But generally, in countries that make most of our clothes, workers would make way, way less than $3.90 total to make a bra like this.

Lynn Boo Rady (20:46)

Oh, pennies. It could be 50 cents in other countries.

Sarah Gonzalez (20:49)

So why don't they do it somewhere else? Is it because they want to be a brand that says, we use American.

Lynn Boo Rady (20:54)

Labor that's worth money? Absolutely.

Sarah Gonzalez (20:58)

Do you think that your average consumer of this product thinks, oh, wait, that's what American labor is? It's like someone getting paid 18 cents to 30 cents to work on this?

Lynn Boo Rady (21:10)

No, absolutely not. I think we have the image of a well run factory that's air conditioned, where people get nice breaks and go home to their families at night. And it's just not that. I've seen worse factories in America than I have seen overseas.

Sarah Gonzalez (21:28)

Most of the garment factories left in the US over 76% of them are small operations with fewer than 10 workers. You'd walk by some of these and never even know there was a garment factory there. In New York City, a factory could be on top of a restaurant in Little Italy. In Los Angeles, it could be on a residential street looking like any other single story house on the block. There aren't that many factories or that many domestic garment workers. In 1990, there were like 900,000 apparel manufacturing jobs in the U.S. today, there are 82,000. The U.S. lost most of its garment industry in the 90s when brands and retailers started sourcing more and more products overseas and paying other countries to make more and more clothes. And when that happened, the US Kind of stopped investing in the factories that were left, stopped innovating. So walking into some of these factories today can feel like going back in time.

Aisha Baron Blatt (22:23)

It's tiny, subcontracted, overcrowded factories with these juky machines.

Sarah Gonzalez (22:29)

This is Aisha Barenblatt. Her work running a nonprofit called Remake has taken her inside garment factories all over the US and abroad.

Aisha Baron Blatt (22:37)

Come look at the factories in South Asia, not just in China, in Cambodia, in Bangladesh. Some of these are state of the art facilities, innovative, you know, with robotics and AI and using clean technology. We don't have that.

Sarah Gonzalez (22:52)

We have some, not many. The governments in a lot of the countries where our clothes are made today actually subsidize those state of the art fancy factories. And unless the US Were to do the same, Aisha says she cannot imagine that there would be the right incentives for anyone to invest in more U.S. factories.

Aisha Baron Blatt (23:10)

This is an aging workforce. You know, who is going to do the skill development that's needed without investment in workforce, without investment in R and D, in technology, in actual factory development and patience. It's not as though these jobs are just going to come back. Can I just say that these jobs are not going to. We're not going to make iPhones in America, and we're not going to make all our clothes in America. We don't know how to like. Let's just put that out there.

Sarah Gonzalez (23:38)

Yeah. The US Outsource a lot of its garment making expertise a long time ago. Other countries got really good at making clothes. Not just sewing clothes, but like the pattern, making, fitting, making a bra. Not a simple sports bra like our purple bra, but like a. A legit structured support bra with cups and the whole thing. Aisha says the US doesn't really know how to make those bras.

Aisha Baron Blatt (24:03)

No. Look in your closet and see where most of your bras come from. Sri Lanka, probably. It's hard. You know, it's a technical garment. I mean, the wire, the clasp, the.

Sarah Gonzalez (24:14)

Sizing, the whole, like, rounded, molded part.

Co-host / Narrator (24:19)

Yeah.

Sarah Gonzalez (24:20)

Different countries have become experts at different things. One country might be really great at making cheap pearl buttons for our clothes. Another great at working with silk. The US Is apparently not known for its silk work. You really want to go to where silk production originated for good silk work. So China. But there is a garment manufacturing industry in the U.S. right? That's what Maria does. And if you're wondering why there is any industry left at all. When clothes can be made cheaper, sometimes even better abroad. Here's why. Some US brands like to have factories nearby for things like prototyping and making samples. They just want a few pieces right away. Why haven't made all the way in China? And then there are clothes for the niche customer, like consumers who really want clothes that aren't shipped from across the world because they really care about emissions. For example, specialized clothes for people with physical disabilities. The US makes a decent amount of that. And here's another big reason. Basically all of the clothes for the US Military have to by law, under the very amendment, be made in the U.S. the fabric, the fiber, top to bottom, made in the usa. Because the US military doesn't ever want to have to rely on a particular country in case we ever like go to war with that country or something. This is the part of the garment industry that the US government does prop up. And there's a perception, right, that made in America must mean better labor conditions, maybe better pay, good for the environment even.

Aisha Baron Blatt (25:59)

Why do you think that, Sarah? That's not true. That's absolutely not true.

Sarah Gonzalez (26:04)

Aisha's nonprofit does these reports where they basically grade brands on labor issues like pay and worker well being and environmental issues like the raw materials brands use and where their clothes get discarded.

Aisha Baron Blatt (26:18)

There's this perception that somehow if I'm paying more or if it's a luxury item, then the workers are paying, paid better. And you know, time and time again, you know, there have been scandals with sweatshops in Italy and they've been high end brands, luxury brands. There's math out there. Something like 20 cents for a $20 t shirt. But the same holds true for $120.

Sarah Gonzalez (26:41)

T shirt, a $20 t shirt, a $120 t shirt, the workers likely got 20 cents to work on it. Either way, Aisha says you generally cannot buy your way into better wages for workers. There has been an effort in California where Maria and half of all US garment workers are to raise the pay. But the thing about making clothes is it has historically gone somewhere else where you can pay workers less. That's after the break.

Co-host / Narrator (27:18)

Do you also have the winter blues? Maybe you're feeling a little dreary and need a pep up. And there's nothing that can update your outfit like a good coat in the winter. It's really all you need. And there's no better place for a cured selection than Macy's. They have everything from a practical hardy north face puffer coat to kind of fashiony asymmetrical Donna Karan Puffer coat. It's a selection of coats for every budget and every imaginable style. It's an easy upgrade. Check out what's in store in person or@macy's.com it won't surprise you to know that this podcast is sponsored by the RealReal because, listen, I'm a fashion journalist on a podcaster budget. I am not a Rockefeller, but I like nice stuff and my favorite designer is Issey Miyake and there's no way that I'd be able to deck myself out in his stuff without the real real. This is where I go to get my nice clothes and I can actually afford it and then I can resell them on the RealReal and funnel that money into some special new thing. The RealReal is the world's largest and most trusted resource for authenticated luxury resale, with thousands of new arrivals daily. No one does resale like the RealReal. And now get $25 off your first purchase when you go to therealreal.com articles. That's therealreal.com articles to get your $25 off. Start shopping now at therealreal.com articles articles of interest is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is where you can go to create a website for that vision you have. Are you starting a business? Do you have a fun, weird little side project? Are you getting married and deciding to create your own wedding website like I am? Like a maniac? With Squarespace's toolkit, you yes, you can build a beautiful online presence that perfectly fits your brand or business no matter what kind of freak you are. Every website is optimized to be indexed with meta descriptions, auto generated sitemaps, and so much more so that you'll show up more often on search engines and bring in more of your people. Also, if you're a fashion brand or a retail site, Squarespace has built in tools for inventory, shipping and fulfillment, and easy online payments. Squarespace also has integrated email campaigns. No matter what your business is or what your passion is, Squarespace is there to help you at every single step of the way. Head to squarespace.com articles for a free trial and then when you're ready to launch, use offer code articles to save 10% on your first purchase of a website or domain.

Sarah Gonzalez (30:02)

So we know that Maria gets paid by the piece, but here's how they add it up. Every day when Maria walks into work, she gets bundles of clothes that need trimming, sorted by size. And Maria keeps track of the cut, the style and the Number of pieces in a notebook and then figures out her total pay at the end of the week. And the Mr. Or Mrs. Will do the same accounting on their end. And sometimes their math might be five, six dollars short. And Maria will be like, no, no, no. Check your math again.

Maria (Garment Worker) (30:29)

Si hasto cuenta bien yaras que si. Okay.

Sarah Gonzalez (30:32)

Maria does feel like she has to fight for every dollar she gets. Working a regular average day where the garments she's working on is not so easy and not so hard. Maria might do like 500 pieces at 15 cents a piece. So $75 a day. Ita pagan in cash. Working full time, she could make $375 a week, 1500 dollars a month. If Maria was making the minimum wage in California, though, she'd make $2,640 a month. When you convert peace rate pay to hourly wages, it can add up to much less than the minimum wage. According to a Department of labor survey of garment workers in Southern California, some workers made as little as a dollar and 58 cents an hour. And in California, the way that Maria is getting paid by the piece is actually not legal. It's wage theft, and Maria knows it. Maria is a member of a group called the Garment Worker center in Los Angeles. The center, and also Aisha's nonprofit, pushed for this law in California that prohibits piece rate pay in the garment industry. It passed four years ago. So now by law, Maria is supposed to be getting paid hourly at minimum wage or better, not by the piece. But getting all the brands and factories to comply with the law is another story. Sometimes garment workers are asked to clock in and clock out every day even though they are not paid by the hour. Factories do this to try to avoid being caught by state investigators. They'll even coach workers on what color the paint paycheck would be if they got a paycheck, not cash, so that they can be more believable to investigators. Our purple sports bra, the one we bought, we spoke to a worker who says they worked on those bras paid by the piece. And the company that made it was actually fined for using factories in California that were committing wage theft and issuing fake checks. And listen, many brands have worked with factories that pay garment workers per piece. According to the Department of Labor, it's been contractors and manufacturers that make clothes for Neiman Marcus, Nordstrom, Lulu's, Dillard's. So it's not just the, you know, bad, fast fashion brands doing this. It's luxury brands. It's good American brands that boast about being made with US labor, like our sports bra. And if factories get wind that maybe someone is poking around on how they're paying workers, there's this thing that can happen. The factory can close up, relocate, change their name to avoid having to back pay workers. Lynn. Lynn, who used to have the stopwatch timing workers sewing on seams. She says she saw factories do this all the time.

Lynn Boo Rady (33:21)

If they were caught doing anything and the government came in, they would say, sorry, that company no longer exists. We, we're this owner. We're the new company now.

Sarah Gonzalez (33:31)

But it would be the same owners, of course, different name. Yeah. Yep. And how can they do that?

Lynn Boo Rady (33:36)

Oh, it's all illegal. It is the very definition of a sweatshop. But you have to catch them at it.

Sarah Gonzalez (33:45)

Yes, sweatshops, it's a term people toss out a lot. But the actual definition of a sweatshop is poor working conditions, low pay, long hours. And the problem with trying to make wages and conditions and hours better is that you can risk losing the industry altogether. For example, the law in California that prohibits piece rate pay in the garment industry, the California Chamber of Commerce labeled it a job killer. People said that if California is the only state in the country that bans piece rate pay, factories and brands will just make clothes one state over where they can still pay workers by the piece. There has been a years long push to eliminate peace rate pay nationally, but I mean, then the work could just go to another country. These jobs have already moved from China to Bangladesh and Vietnam where the labor is cheaper. We did talk to a garment worker who has been paid hourly, not by the peace. Like what you do for work? What do you do for work? No, what do you do for work? Oh, what do you do?

Aisha Baron Blatt (34:45)

What do I do for work?

Sarah Gonzalez (34:48)

This is Pacheco. She is a sewer in LA who has made clothes for the US military.

Maria (Garment Worker) (34:54)

Las camisas para los soldados.

Sarah Gonzalez (34:57)

This is for the soldiers como el camouflage. But even getting paid minimum wage, Pacheco says there is pressure to do things fast. You give everything you can physically, she says, and mentally, because you have to do really good work in some factories at least. And if you don't work fast, Pacheco says sometimes they can just take the work away from you. They might say, oh, there's actually not going to be a lot of work the next few days. We'll call you when there's more and you get the message. She says, to work faster next time. Pacheco says sometimes she actually made more money when she was paid by the peace. Now we are not using Pacheco's full name because she fears workplace retaliation. This is also why we're not using Maria's full name or the names of their employers. But the Garment Worker center, which fights labor violations, says this kind of thing happens all the time. And Pacheco has a lot of regrets about investing so much of her adult life in this industry. She says she has nothing to show for her work. No savings, no career advancements. She feels broken by it. You've lost a lot of time. What person doesn't want to move up in work and life and have more? She says. Pacheco, Maria, they say this is not a job they would want for their loved ones, like Pacheco's kids or Maria's grandkids who all graduated college.

Maria (Garment Worker) (36:51)

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. No estono para no.

Sarah Gonzalez (36:56)

Not this job for them.

Maria (Garment Worker) (36:57)

Mar.

Sarah Gonzalez (37:01)

Maria says she wants them to be something in life. I tell her, you're something. Yeah, I'm something, she says, but she raised her kids. They all ate. And she's proud of herself. But she cannot imagine many Americans would want this job. Como una americano gringo, no. She's like, come on, you think they'd be crouched over all day. She can actually barely contain herself at the thought.

Co-host / Narrator (37:50)

After doing that story, it still sticks with Sarah.

Sarah Gonzalez (37:53)

I will never look at a shirt or bra or pair of pants and not see, like, oh, 15 people probably worked on that. Like, I never knew that it took that. That many people touched one garment in the United States.

Co-host / Narrator (38:09)

To this day, she cannot look at a piece of clothing without imagining all the many hands that touched it.

Sarah Gonzalez (38:15)

It took 15 people to make a bra. It took 20 people to make a T shirt. It took 35 people to make, like, a men's button up dress shirt. That's what I see. Of course, there's like, you know, the Do Gooder factories. But for the most part, it doesn't matter how expensive the clothes is. If it costs. If it's a T shirt that costs $120 or a T shirt that costs $20, the workers who worked on both of those shirts likely got 20 cents to work on it. Either way, you know, it's like knowledge ruins everything.

Co-host / Narrator (38:48)

Take it away with the credits, Sarah.

Sarah Gonzalez (38:50)

I'm Sarah Gonzalez. Today's show was edited by Marianne McCune and fact checked by Cierra Juarez, who also helped with research. It was produced by Willa Rubin with help from Emma Peaslee and engineered by Robert Rodriguez. Alex Goldmark is our executive producer. Also. Super, super extra special thanks to Shang Liu, who really helped us understand why the garment industry exists in the US at all and what it looks like.

Co-host / Narrator (39:14)

This episode I added music by Lilatone, Sesame Ashworth and Ray Royal, but I.

Sarah Gonzalez (39:19)

Have not found a perfect simple white T shirt. If you have any tips.

Co-host / Narrator (39:23)

Actually, if you want my humble suggestions for simple, relatively ethical good white T shirts, go to articlesofinterest.substack.com.

Sarah Gonzalez (39:36)

Radiotopia.

Co-host / Narrator (39:39)

From PRX.