Clergy

Summary

Articles of Interest – Episode: Clergy Hosted by Avery Trufelman | Release Date: May 22, 2024

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Introduction: A Left-Leaning Sanctuary with Timeless Traditions

In the episode titled "Clergy," Avery Trufelman explores the intricate relationship between fashion and faith by attending an 11 a.m. Mass at St. Ignatius on 84th and Park, accompanied by her friend Nick Minoni, a journalist covering the Vatican. The church, characterized by its progressive posters featuring activists like Dolores Huerta and Sharon Levine, juxtaposes modern social activism with the enduring grandeur of traditional Catholic rituals. “No one puts on a show like the Catholics,” Avery remarks at [00:01:03], highlighting the dramatic blend of sensory elements such as the choir’s harmonious singing, the organ’s resounding notes, and the evocative scent of incense, which she describes as "coming out like a dry ice machine."

Father James Martin’s Homily: Community and Relational Theology

Father James Martin, a renowned and inclusive Jesuit priest, delivers a poignant homily emphasizing the importance of community in salvation. At [00:02:11], he states, “We express our love of God through relationships with one another,” underscoring the necessity of human connections despite the church’s imperfections. Avery reflects on her personal journey back to Catholicism, noting, “As a Jew who'd never been to Mass before, there's no denying the power of the choir, the vaulted ceilings, and, of course, the costumes” at [00:01:47].

The Elegance and Symbolism of Clerical Attire

A substantial portion of the episode delves into the sartorial aspects of clergy garments. Avery and Nick discuss Father Martin’s ornate attire, including the "golden cream" brocaded vestments seen from the pulpit ([00:03:00]). Avery marvels at the craftsmanship, describing the vestments as “sumptuous, elegant cloth” and questioning their cost, which can range from $400 to $12,000 ([00:06:33]). Father Martin explains the practical and symbolic reasons behind the clerical collar and formal vestments at [00:04:40], noting, “Every time I put on the collar... people treat you completely differently.”

Historical Perspectives: John of Damascus and the Evolution of Religious Art

Nick Minoni introduces historical context by discussing John of Damascus, a 1st-century theologian who defended the use of religious icons. At [00:12:11], Nick explains how John’s rationale laid the groundwork for masterpieces like the Sistine Chapel and the Renaissance era's ornate church art. This historical linkage underscores the Catholic Church’s embrace of beauty as a reflection of divine glory, contrasting with other religions that may eschew worldly adornments ([00:13:58]).

Vatican II: A Turning Point in Church Attire and Practices

The episode transitions to the significant impact of the Second Vatican Council (Vatican II) on church practices and attire. Avery provides a concise definition, noting its occurrence from 1962 to 1965 and its intent to modernize the Catholic Church ([00:29:28]). John O’Malley, a Jesuit priest and historian, describes how Vatican II sought to make Mass more accessible by introducing the vernacular language and altering the priest’s orientation to face the congregation ([00:31:02]). This shift sparked debates within the church, particularly concerning the use of traditional Latin Mass versus the newly adopted local languages.

Post-Vatican II: Division and Tradition in Clerical Vestments

Post-Vatican II, Avery explores the dichotomy between conservative and liberal priests regarding vestments. Victor Slabink of Slab Inc., a family-run business supplying church vestments, explains how different chasubles signal theological leanings ([00:28:32]). The episode features interviews with traditional priests who resist change, preferring the Roman chasuble without sleeves, and contrasts them with more progressive clergy who embrace the reforms.

Modern Monastic Life: Simplicity and Craftsmanship at Holy Rood Guild

Avery visits a Trappist monastery in Massachusetts, meeting Father Boniface and Father Timothy, who manage the Holy Rood Guild. Their commitment to crafting high-quality vestments reflects a dedication to both tradition and craftsmanship. At [00:42:05], Father Boniface emphasizes the monastic vow of obedience and the importance of creating vestments as an act of service and devotion. The meticulous process of making and maintaining vestments, including custom tailoring and rigorous quality control, underscores the sacredness attributed to these garments.

Ethics and Economics of Clerical Clothing

The episode further explores the ethical implications of vestment production. Victor Slabink discusses the high costs associated with ethically made vestments, which often preclude cheaper alternatives from meeting fair labor standards ([00:46:30]). Avery highlights the tension between beautiful, ethically produced vestments and the market flooded with inexpensive, poorly made alternatives that undermine both economic stability and the sanctity of worship.

Philosophical Underpinnings: Beauty, Goodness, and Truth in Clerical Fashion

Nick Minoni introduces the philosophical perspective of Hans Urs von Balthasar, who posited that everything embodies truth, goodness, and beauty. Avery connects this to the clergy’s attire, suggesting that the beauty of vestments serves as a gateway to deeper spiritual truths and communal goodness. She reflects, “The beauty of clothing, the fantasy of fashion, led me to the goodness of quality and style and craftsmanship and tradition” ([00:50:35]).

Conclusion: The Interconnectedness of Apparel, Ethics, and Spirituality

Avery concludes by reinforcing the idea that clerical attire is more than mere clothing; it represents a complex interplay of tradition, craftsmanship, ethical labor, and spiritual symbolism. Father James Martin encapsulates this sentiment by stating, “When you put it on, it makes you feel different about where you are and how you're to comport yourself… It's a way to God” ([00:49:30]). The episode leaves listeners contemplating the profound connections between what we wear, how we present ourselves, and the deeper values that guide our lives.

Key Takeaways:

• Tradition vs. Modernity: The Catholic Church balances deep-rooted traditions with modern progressive elements, particularly evident in worship spaces that blend activism with traditional rituals.

• Vestments as Symbols: Clerical attire serves not only functional and symbolic purposes but also reflects theological and cultural shifts within the church.

• Vatican II’s Legacy: The Second Vatican Council was a pivotal moment that transformed Catholic liturgy and vestments, fostering both unity and division among clergy.

• Ethical Considerations: The production of religious garments raises important ethical questions about labor practices, sustainability, and the true cost of beauty.

• Philosophical Dimensions: The intersection of truth, goodness, and beauty in religious attire underscores a broader philosophical and spiritual narrative within the Catholic tradition.

Notable Quotes:

• Avery Trufelman [00:01:03]: “No one puts on a show like the Catholics.”

• Father James Martin [00:02:11]: “We express our love of God through relationships with one another.”

• Victor Slabink [00:28:32]: “We offer fresh soup to our people every day just to make sure they have their vitamins.”

• Dr. Candida Moss [00:21:11]: “People associate beauty and ideas of beauty...with morality.”

Further Exploration:

Listeners interested in the intricate relationships between faith, tradition, and fashion are encouraged to visit articlesofinterest.substack.com for more images and insights. Additionally, Nick Minoni’s upcoming documentary on the Vatican promises an in-depth look into the fashion dynamics within the heart of Catholicism.

Music Credits:

This episode features music by Ray Dawnroyal with theme music by Sesame.

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For more episodes and discussions on the intersection of culture and attire, subscribe to Articles of Interest wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

[Avery Trufelman]

Hey, Nick. Nick. Can you say where we are? We're at St. Ignatius on 84th and park at an 11am Mass. And you can hear the choir singing right now. So my. My friend Nick brought me to Sunday Mass at a pretty lefty Catholic church. It should be noted that this church has posters of Dolores Huerta and Sharon Levine and other activists and labor leaders. But the Mass was as thunderous and full of tradition as ever. The choir picked up the organ hit. The incense came out like a dry ice machine.

[Nick Minoni]

The incense is to cloud the vision because God is cloudy and you can't see him. This is a little nod to. Obviously, it's not enough incense to cloud anything, but it's a symbol.

[Avery Trufelman]

No one puts on a show like the Catholics, which sounds kind of flippant, but I mean it. The drama of it all, or as they jokingly call it, the smells and bells. It draws people in. Like this couple that was sitting behind me. Our story is good. We drive an hour from Greenwich, Connecticut to come here. Wow. Why? Because we love it. This music just helps me to center and takes me back in history. And I grew up Catholic. I went astray. I came back. So it holds me. I mean, it holds me. As a Jew who'd never been to Mass before, there's no denying the power of the choir, the vaulted ceilings, and, of course, the costumes.

[Father James Martin]

How are you so excited? I wore something special for you.

[Avery Trufelman]

You look. Father James Martin, perhaps the most famously outspoken American Jesuit, notoriously inclusive of queer Catholics, took the stand the grace and.

[Father James Martin]

Peace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Avery Trufelman]

He gave a beautiful homily about how we relate to each other, how we need other people for our salvation.

[Father James Martin]

We express our love of God through relationships with one another, through.

[Avery Trufelman]

He talked about needing to tend to community, especially within the church. As flawed as the church can be.

[Father James Martin]

Why do I even need the church when some of its members are so misogynistic or homophobic or mean or just sinful? It is because we are, even in the face of those annoyances, imperfections, and even sin, called to be in relationship.

[Avery Trufelman]

It was a pretty fitting homily because. Listen, I'm not here to enumerate all the controversies around the Catholic Church, nor the values that the church has taken stances on. So whatever your thoughts may be on divorce or contraceptives or abortion or the infallibility of the Pope, or any number of issues, we are all called in relationship to concede that priests have incredible style. Also. Nick, I'm sorry to distract you from the prayer, but can you Describe what Father Martin is wearing. He's wearing a. What color is this? It's like golden cream. It's got like a beautiful sort of brocaded, gold, woven, floral pattern on it. It's just very elegant. Father Martin was decked out in yards of sumptuous, elegant cloth. And that's just seeing it from the pulpit. It was even better up close. Hi. That was beautiful. Feel good?

[Father James Martin]

Well, you came in. I told you that.

[Avery Trufelman]

Backstage, Father Martin had taken off the gold brocade and was standing in his business casual attire, which was the black shirt with the high collar. The black and white priest collar is intended to be sort of a collar collar, like a dog collar. It's a sign of devotion to God and to the church. But it's not required that Father Martin wear the collar all the time. This is like his business uniform.

[Father James Martin]

I wear it on official business. I would say if I'm giving a talk, if I'm visiting someone in the.

[Avery Trufelman]

Hospital, it's like how a doctor wears scrubs or a lawyer wears a suit. It's just that this uniform has a.

[Father James Martin]

Lot more baggage when I put on the collar. Right. It's called the clerical collar and the black suit. Everybody treats you differently. Everyone treats you completely differently. Either they treat you like you're Jesus and you're the holiest person alive, or they hate you, you know, because you're a priest and therefore you're a pedophile.

[Avery Trufelman]

Father Martin said people have spit on him, told him he's going to hell, or conversely, they unload on him. They want to make a confession.

[Father James Martin]

But it's interesting. It's a kind of litmus test about how people feel about the church or priests or God.

[Avery Trufelman]

Another priest told me that the little white square around your neck is a miniature projection screen that people are going to put all kinds of ideas onto that little white square. But again, the collar is for going around and doing regular duties, visiting a hospital, meeting parishioners, etc. That's the business wear, not the formal wear. If Father Martin is about to lead a wedding or a funeral or the masks I just witnessed, there's the fancy attire. Okay, get ready to do a little imagining with me. Okay. Over that black collared shirt, Father Martin will put on what looks like a long white nightgown. It's so long, it almost brushes his shoes. That's called an alb.

[Father James Martin]

So the alb goes first.

[Avery Trufelman]

The alb sort of covers everything and makes you a clean white slate.

[Father James Martin]

And then the stole goes over that.

[Avery Trufelman]

And then over that long White alb comes the stole, which is a long, skinny scarf that hangs open around his neck.

[Father James Martin]

And then the chasuble goes over the whole thing.

[Avery Trufelman]

The chasuble is the big brocaded poncho. The chasuble is the main event. Alb, stol, chasuble, nightgown, scarf, poncho. These are the vestments. The vestments are the formal wear for priests. And they are stunning.

[Father James Martin]

Aren't they beautiful?

[Avery Trufelman]

They're beautiful. They were. But I have to say I felt kind of guilty, which I suppose is fittingly Catholic, but I think I felt a little embarrassed that after all the singing about heaven, after the reading of an ancient text that was passed down for centuries, after the beautiful homily about how to be in community, I had come to talk about fashion.

[Father James Martin]

I mean, they're hugely expensive. You know, it's like damask and all this silk and all this stuff. So most, you know, I certainly can't. I certainly couldn't afford it.

[Avery Trufelman]

Father Martin shares all these vestments with the other priests. These clothes are as much a part of the church as a bench or a statue and almost as expensive.

[Father James Martin]

Yeah, they're the parishes. So someone gave this in memory of her husband, actually. So you can give vestments to the church, like as a gift because, you know, they're pretty expensive.

[Avery Trufelman]

A well made chasuble can cost anywhere from $400 to $12,000. Does that feel weird? Should that feel weird? Is this a good use of funds? I don't know. Okay, so obviously I have this podcast about fashion, but at best, I feel very mixed about fashion. Maybe you do too, but this is my confessional. I feel guilty buying clothes. I feel guilty about consuming unnecessarily, about working in an industry that relies on shopping for over considering my appearance. Of course, I don't think that people should dedicate so much money and so much time worrying about how they look. I want to believe that we should dedicate ourselves to the larger world beyond us or the introspective world within us. Literally anything beyond the layer of fabric that rests just above skin. And surely these holy men who have devoted their lives to service and study must feel the same. And yet, I gotta tell you, there's a reason they're called men of the.

[Father James Martin]

Cloth, but they're just so beautiful. And you can just tell when you wear them.

[Avery Trufelman]

It's just priests love clothes. They do. They like the meaning of them, they like the feel of them, they like the beauty of them. And it's not just Father Martin and the Jesuits I have talked to Trappists, Franciscans, Dominicans, Episcopalians, and a couple of experts for good measure, and they'll all tell you the same thing, that when it comes to engaging with the world and engaging with your community and engaging with your soul, style does matter. It's just a matter of which style. After the break, we're living through a pretty rocky present. Maybe the past can help. Check out Radiotopia's this Day, hosted by Jodi Avergan with historians Nicole Hemmer and Kelly Carter Jackson. Three times a week they take you into one story from that day in U.S. history. From Eisenhower's weird vendetta against squirrels to the time we accidentally dropped a nuclear bomb on North Carolina, to the women who fought against the right to vote. It's smart, surprising, and actually fun. This is a big moment for history. Next year is America's 250th birthday and, well, look around. There's lots of history being made. Subscribe to this day for your historical perspective wherever you get your podcasts as well as YouTube and Instagram. Growing out my hair, which I've been doing since the pandemic, has felt like a long journey. In fact, my buddy Vivian Le once teased me that I started growing out my hair because I don't have a pet. And it's true. Sometimes my hair does feel like my pet. What can I say? I love to spoil her. The way that I'm going to treat her this summer is by using Nutrafol. It's the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over one and a half million people. Anything truly worthwhile takes time and effort. And with Nutrafol, see thicker, stronger, faster growing hair and less shedding in just three to six months. We all dream of a pet who doesn't shed. While many supplements rely solely on ingredient studies, Nutrafol claims clinically test final formulations to ensure their efficacy. In a clinical study, 90% of women saw overall improvement in their hair after taking Nutrafol Women's Hair Growth Supplement for six months. And it's not just for women. Everybody can enjoy Nutrafol for a limited time. Nutrafol is offering listeners of articles of interest $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. When you go to nutrafol.com and enter the promo code articles spelled N U T R a f o l.com, promo code articles. That's nutrafol.com, promo code articles. Articles of interest is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this Podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. I didn't think I knew much about Catholicism, but turns out we're not so different.

[Nick Minoni]

Christianity is essentially just 1st century Judaism frozen in time. Like Judaism moved on, like got new clothes, grew up. Christianity stayed really, really frozen in the first century.

[Avery Trufelman]

That's my friend Nick, the one who took me to Mass. He's a journalist who covers the Vatican, and he's the one who turned me onto this idea of looking at what priests wear.

[Nick Minoni]

So I'm knee deep in this two year project making a documentary about the Vatican. And this guy's name keeps popping up. John of Damascus. This guy, he lived 1,400 years ago in Damascus. Appropriately enough, he is the key that forever links Christianity to articles of interest. But stay with me, here's what I mean. 1,400 years ago, as I said, these little religious images started to pop up everywhere, right? Little icons.

[Avery Trufelman]

Icons meaning like a little painting, a little statue, any depiction of God, which, you know, according to the ten Commandments, you are technically not supposed to do it is in fact the second commandment. No idols, no worshipping statues.

[Nick Minoni]

People were horrified by this. They would smash them, smash them. They were called iconoclasts, appropriately enough.

[Avery Trufelman]

But this guy, John of Damascus, pipes up with a point.

[Nick Minoni]

Wait a minute. So did God not become man through Jesus? Yes.

[Avery Trufelman]

Right.

[Nick Minoni]

Okay. So says John of Damascus, if God, who made a beautiful holy piece of artwork for us by making his son, you know, wouldn't he want us, maybe even love, for us to make sketches and statues and ceilings and columns and rugs, whatever. Like, I think we have a special permission from God.

[Avery Trufelman]

You can thank John of Damascus for the Sistine Chapel and the Last Supper and Caravaggio and Raphael and El Greco and any number of Andrew Lloyd Webber musicals. So many great works of art and architecture over the last six, 600 years or so have come from this logic.

[Nick Minoni]

It all comes down to the fact that many Christians believed that through Jesus, God made a painting. And therefore Christians are encouraged to use things of this world. Anything can be appropriately used to pay tribute.

[Avery Trufelman]

So this is entirely different from religions or sects who seek to disconnect with the mortal plane, who think that this world is nothing more than an amuse bouche for the next one, who want to detach from worldly objects. That's not Catholicism.

[Nick Minoni]

Honor things.

[Father Boniface]

Not.

[Nick Minoni]

Not dishonor things. No, no, no. Honor the thing. The things are everything.

[Avery Trufelman]

This beauty in the world of things makes sense when you think about a sense of awe in a place like the Sistine Chapel or that Sunday mass we went to. But it makes less sense when you consider that there's another side of Catholicism. The monastics, the men who, to me, seem to actively eschew the world of things even as it develops all around them.

[Nick Minoni]

So we are in the West Village on the intersection of Waverly and 6th. It's like lower Manhattan.

[Avery Trufelman]

I was just saying I must have passed this building a thousand times and never noticed it. Didn't you say it's like a monastery?

[Nick Minoni]

Oh, so this is where Dominican friars live.

[Avery Trufelman]

But this rectory is really not ornate at all. This is not that kind of Catholicism.

[Nick Minoni]

So you'll see, this will look like we're going to the dmv because these guys are very. No nonsense.

[Avery Trufelman]

And so who's our friar?

[Nick Minoni]

Our friar is Father Boniface.

[Avery Trufelman]

Okay.

[Nick Minoni]

Hey, Father.

[Father Boniface]

Good to see you.

[Emma]

Father Boniface.

[Avery Trufelman]

Father Boniface.

[Nick Minoni]

So you're wearing a uniform from the middle ages in 2023.

[Avery Trufelman]

Father Boniface is clothed in a long white hooded robe.

[Emma]

Someone asked me if I was a Jedi once.

[Avery Trufelman]

I mean, yeah, he does look like a Jedi. And that's kind of the point. Friars are sort of like knights.

[Emma]

So this is a tunic. You have the belt. We have a rosary on this side, prayer beads, and they're worn on this side. In the Middle Ages, for a knight, he would wear a sword on this side if you were right handed. And so our sign is our weapon is spiritual, not a sword, but a rosary.

[Avery Trufelman]

So this 13th century robe is called a habit. This is Father Boniface's casual wear. It's a bit more intense than the black and white clerical collar because habits, as their name rightly implies, are worn constantly.

[Emma]

From time to time, I'll wear normal clothes. Like, if I'm out with other friars and we're hiking deep in the woods, I'm not going to wear the habit. But I would say the vast majority of the time, I wear the habit.

[Avery Trufelman]

A decidedly simple symbol of his faith, his poverty, and his vows.

[Emma]

I do prefer it because it's a sign of what your life is about and you get a chance to evangelize, as people will come up to you on the street and ask and talk. Or people will say, hey, Father, can you hear my confession? And so if you wear street clothes, you lose all those opportunities. Ultimately, the habit is a tool to Be used.

[Avery Trufelman]

The habit is, in fact, such a powerful tool that that is how your position gets handed to you as a friar.

[Emma]

When you enter the order, there's a ceremony called vestition, and we take religious names. So I still have my baptismal name, but I got the religious name Boniface. And so you kneel and then the superior of that community clothes you in the habit. You don't put it on yourself the first time you're clothed in it by the community and they put it on you. And then they say in the world you were known as Robert. In the order, you will be known as Boniface. And you get a religious name. And so you essentially take on a new identity as a part of living out the vows. Yeah. Religious life is good at drama, even.

[Avery Trufelman]

If the drama is subdued. Because it should be noted that even this simple white habit is not just some bedsheet or something. It's somehow elegant. Father Boniface looks regal in his habit and it's not just because of his divine inner glow.

[Emma]

We have to get seamstress to make them because obviously there's not an off the shelf religious habit store.

[Avery Trufelman]

This is custom made for you. Yes, it's tailoring. Even in these simple anachronistic frocks, the fit matters. This is essentially like a custom suit. You know, if you only own two habits and they're all you wear, they might as well be perfect.

[Emma]

This one was made by a young woman named Emma. I think it has a tag.

[Avery Trufelman]

Yeah, the E. That's really classy. That's a really. It's just a script E with a period. Yeah.

[Nick Minoni]

I think we need to find Emma.

[Avery Trufelman]

I'm Emma, the mysterious Emma. Yes, Emma is actually a bit mysterious and would like to keep her anonymity. But suffice to say, I had to fly quite far from New York to find her. But I am a Dominican habit seamstress, professionally. So in making a habit, Emma has to consider individual dimensions. So we're looking for something that looks appropriately proportioned on the young man. So the tunic hits at the right length at the ankle, adjusts the neck bands on the tunic. Are the shoulders loose enough? You hunch your shoulders a little too much and you're not going to correct that at this age. It really is like a bespoke suit, which is, to a degree, about making you look symmetrical and proportionate, where you just look good and no one can quite put their finger on why. Once the friars have received their new habits, I do a studio setup in person and I fine tune all the details. These habits are simple, but they are not careless. They are, to borrow an annoying fashion phrase, quiet luxury.

[Emma]

Beauty is a way in which we encounter the goodness of reality. And, and to seek beauty and clothing is not a bad thing.

[Avery Trufelman]

Father Boniface says there are just different ways to go about it.

[Emma]

There's places for adornment and outrageous over the top beauty, and then there's places for noble simplicity.

[Avery Trufelman]

And Father Boniface does engage with both kinds of beauty, even though normally day to day he wears the simple looking habit. He will also dress up formally for Mass, just like Father Martin did. Just like any Catholic priest does in the vestments, they can be over the.

[Emma]

Top, so they can get extremely ornate.

[Avery Trufelman]

Over his habit, Father Boniface will put on the crisp white gown of the Alb, the thin scarf of the stole, and the beautifully embroidered poncho of the chasuble. All priests in Catholicism wear the vestments.

[Father James Martin]

I think it's kind of nice. It's basically about fitting in with the rest of the priesthood.

[Avery Trufelman]

The Jesuit Father Martin again.

[Father James Martin]

So if you see a Dominican day to day, they'll be wearing the white habit. Now during Mass, if you think about it, we put on the same thing. Over their habit, they would put on the stole and the chasuble. Over my collar, I would put the stole and the chasuble on. And so it would be indistinguishable.

[Avery Trufelman]

That is what unites all these holy men. No matter what vows they've taken, whether they live in a monastery or give talks on tv, they are all united under this really beautiful and often very expensive garment. Which made me think, huh?

[Dr. Candida Moss]

So we tend to think that religious garb is really simple. You know, it's simple. It's articulating something pure and simple about the Christian message. But that's not true, especially when you think about the origins of the clothing, especially against the backdrop of like richly embroidered clothing, things that were, were dyed with very expensive dyes that people could not afford.

[Avery Trufelman]

This is Dr. Candida Moss, journalist and professor of theology at the University of Birmingham.

[Dr. Candida Moss]

When you talk to people who are not Christian, they'll almost always say, oh, but if I was going to convert, it would be to one of the denominations with the cool dress up. Like, I want beautiful churches, I want beautiful music, I want those things.

[Avery Trufelman]

You nailed it so entirely.

[Dr. Candida Moss]

Not my first time talking to a non Christian.

[Avery Trufelman]

Right.

[Dr. Candida Moss]

You know, because beauty is compelling. It's compelling in the world today. And that feeling, the pull of beauty, it's the foundation for the religious experience, but it's also the foundation for modern advertising.

[Avery Trufelman]

An image of a beautiful, well dressed person somehow makes you believe that you could live like them, that you could be better and find more love and respect and success.

[Dr. Candida Moss]

People associate beauty and ideas of beauty, like symmetry with not just with like physical appearance, but with morality. As if your soul and your body match in some way.

[Avery Trufelman]

It's not a new idea. If you look at Christian art, when.

[Dr. Candida Moss]

People draw saints, they are always gorgeous looking. If they were decapitated, they've been put back together.

[Avery Trufelman]

No scar.

[Dr. Candida Moss]

No scar. In modern artwork, you might see a thin line in some sort of like almost like a necklace or a, a beautiful piece of jewelry. These are beautiful bodies and they're also rich bodies because there's an association between the divine and beauty. And lingering beneath the surface is an assumption that wealth makes you beautiful.

[Avery Trufelman]

So what does that say? Is that is the idea like in heaven, once we transcend our disgusting mortal coil, we shall all be rich and beautiful.

[Dr. Candida Moss]

Well, no one would say rich out loud. That's the quiet part. The churches is supposed to be rich, supposed to be taking that money and giving it away. The argument about you keeping the money and spending it on clothes and spending it on the churches is that that beauty reflects the glory and beauty of God. So the book of Revelation says that at the end of time, the new Jerusalem, the heavenly city, will descend onto the earth. That heavenly city has gates with precious jewels on it, like pearls, gold everywhere, Jasper, amethyst. So that's the basis. That's why churches look so gorgeous. This is why people are okay with this extremely expensive kind of spaces. I used to think, well, this is just otherworldly. It is expressing the kind of otherworldliness of heaven and of the new Jerusalem. And then I started reading more widely about the Roman super elite and I realized they have these things. Like the Emperor Nero had jewels in the ceiling of his domus area, his golden house. That's what it means. And so I think what bums me out was that it wasn't about transcendent wealth beyond people's dreams. It was about wealth that people actually had. So whenever we think about heaven, we just project into it wealth and what we would want now. Perfect bodies dressed perfectly. So I think it's about people's hopes, about their worldly desires. And yes, that is profoundly depressed.

[Avery Trufelman]

We mortals get confused. We conflate what is good, what is beautiful and what is wealthy. And I can't help but wonder if this is a profoundly human failability, something innate that we just are drawn to. The shiny things. And if this is what the elaborate church vestments are playing into, certainly they.

[Dr. Candida Moss]

Are projecting wealth as a marker of sanctity.

[Avery Trufelman]

Again, even if the priest himself only lives in two habits, day in and day out, he still puts on the rich ensemble for the showtime that is Mass.

[Dr. Candida Moss]

I'm the sucker for it, too. If I'm gonna go to a church, it better be some beautiful church. And even though, in principle, theoretically, you could just have a room with a simple wooden table and, like, some chairs, that personally wouldn't do it for me because I'm shallow.

[Avery Trufelman]

And that's what I worried about, that I, a shallow fashion person, might have been bending this whole exploration to fit my predilections to shape this argument about beauty and holiness as it pertains to priest clothes. To ultimately come away with a lesson that's like, see, clothes are important. They're good. You can invest in something that's really, really expensive if it's really, really beautiful. I am perhaps seeking absolution for my confession so that I can continue to sin again and again and again. And so it makes sense to me that once upon a time, not so far away, there was once extensive discussion within the church about if priests should wear vestments at all. So maybe you saw this coming, but I have to talk about Vatican 2 after the break.

[Nick Minoni]

This is your Rome correspondent.

[Avery Trufelman]

Nick sent me this voice note on one of his trips to the Vatican.

[Nick Minoni]

Okay, so I'm looking at this immense Renaissance catwalk that is St. Peter's I'm seeing a couple of guys walk right now. They have the classic black pants in the shirt and the little white Roman collars. And then there's three bishops, and they've got a more ornate kind of shoulder material. I'm looking at all of them, like, weave in and out of each other in this great enormous square of St. Peter's and every outfit means something else. And it's just like an articulation of fashion that I've never thought of fashion at all.

[Avery Trufelman]

The Catholic Church contains many different fashions, so to speak. And so what I thought was niche turned out to be actually a relatively robust market.

[Victor Slabink]

I think every city probably has nine to 10 churches at least, because you don't only have the Catholic Church. You have the Lutheran, the Baptist. You have the Episcopalians. You have so many denominations of churches. And they all need a banner, they all need a tapestry. They all need altar linen. They all need something. So how many markets do you know that actually cater to at least 8, 9, 10 buildings per village?

[Avery Trufelman]

And A lot of those churches are catered to by Slabink.

[Victor Slabink]

My name is Victor Slabink. I'm part of the fourth generation of the Slabbink family. We started our business in 1903 in the historical city of Bruno, Belgium. And the company itself is 125 years young.

[Avery Trufelman]

Slab Inc. Makes almost everything a church would need. Altar, linens, banners, tapestries, yes, but also the vestments that every priest wears. The alb, the stole and the chasuble. And in that case, Victor says there are really only two kinds of priests.

[Victor Slabink]

Well, in the Catholic Church, you pretty much, you have the very conservative priests and you have the rather liberal, open minded priests. And it does reflect when a priest comes in our showroom and he takes out the vestment, we immediately know how his theological thinking is because he takes out the vestment that pretty much reflects his way of thinking.

[Avery Trufelman]

And the difference really comes down to the chasuble. That's the part that I've been calling a poncho, but it's not always exactly like a poncho. There's another kind of chasuble that doesn't have sleeves. It looks almost like a vest or an ornate cloth sandwich board. It's called a Roman chasuble.

[Victor Slabink]

A lot of really conservative priests, when they come in, they take out the Roman vestment, which is the vestment without sleeves. And for them that represents a vestment that goes back to before the Second Vatican Consilium.

[Avery Trufelman]

The Second Vatican Consilium, also known as Vatican ii.

[John O'Malley]

The Second Vatican Council. It was a big surprise.

[Avery Trufelman]

Okay. I didn't know what Vatican II was, so I'm going to define it. The. The Second Vatican Council was a big meeting to try to reimagine the role of the church in the 20th century. This is a recording of a talk by John W. O' Malley, a priest and historian who passed away in 2022. He wrote an excellent book called what happened at Vatican II.

[John O'Malley]

So Pope John XXIII was elected in 1958.

[Avery Trufelman]

Pope John XXIII was like, look, the Church needs to reconsider some things. A lot has happened.

[John O'Malley]

The Holocaust was finally emerging from the shadows. Germany, a Christian country, strongly Lutheran, strongly Catholic. And this happened.

[Victor Slabink]

Wow.

[Avery Trufelman]

Another thing that was emerging after the Second World War was democracy.

[John O'Malley]

Not so surprising for us in the United States. But on the continent, the official church in Europe was in favor of return to the monarchy. This was true up until 1944, when Pius XII gave a famous address saying, well, maybe democracy is the way of the future. And it's more in keeping with Human dignity.

[Avery Trufelman]

And also in regards to human dignity, the period of open, rampant colonialism was.

[John O'Malley]

Done well, this is now over with. What does that mean? This was a big shock to the missionaries and also these native peoples, former colonies, saying, what about our culture?

[Avery Trufelman]

There were now lots of Catholics in Asia and Africa and South America.

[John O'Malley]

What about our culture? You're trying to Europeanize us. We don't want to be Europeans. We're ourselves.

[Avery Trufelman]

So Pope John XXIII decided that the Catholic Church needed to reconsider its role in the modern world. So he called this massive meeting of almost the entire Church in St Peter's.

[John O'Malley]

At any given moment during the council, there were generally about 2,100 to 2,200 bishops. So it was huge. Simply in terms of the number of people.

[Avery Trufelman]

I love looking at the pictures of Vatican ii. It's this massive hall full of bishops all wearing their red suits.

[John O'Malley]

116 different countries were represented.

[Avery Trufelman]

But it's not like this was just one meeting. Vatican II actually happened over the course of years.

[John O'Malley]

It opened on October 11, 1962, and met in St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican for four periods lasting 10 to 12 weeks in the fall of 1962.

[Avery Trufelman]

63, 64, and 65, and amid much, much debate. In short, there were a number of big decisions that came out of Vatican ii. Most notably, the church got rid of Latin Mass. Now, Mass was in the local language, whatever that was, so that participants could understand the whole liturgy.

[John O'Malley]

So full and active participation.

[Avery Trufelman]

And I just want to be fair. There are pros and cons to this, right? Like, yes, when Mass is in the local language, everyone can understand what the priest is saying. But something that I always liked about Judaism is that even though I don't fully understand the service in Hebrew, there are a lot of prayers that I recognize and know by heart. And so I've gone to synagogues all over the world, and it's always in Hebrew. And so no matter where I am, I can participate. So you know what I mean? Like, that's sort of something the church lost. So there was this debate back and forth there. And then there was this other sweeping change that before Vatican ii, congregants spent the whole time looking at the priest's back. He was facing the same direction. They were praying to the cross. After Vatican ii, he turned around and faced his flock. And another thing that Vatican II paved the way for was a wider acceptance of other religions.

[John O'Malley]

When I was growing up as a boy, we could not go to a wedding or even a funeral of a Protestant Friend or relative. To us today, that sounds like unbelievable, but that's the way it was.

[Avery Trufelman]

And all these little changes amounted to something massive.

[John O'Malley]

So what the council was asking really was for a kind of conversion and a shift in core values.

[Avery Trufelman]

John o' Malley put it in this beautiful way.

[John O'Malley]

This comes down to the question of style.

[Avery Trufelman]

I love that it was something about style, a change in a cohesive way of being.

[John O'Malley]

I mean, style is personality, expression of personality. So that's what we're talking about when we talk about the style of the church. The second Vatican Council was about much more than a handful of, of superficial adjustments to the modern world.

[Avery Trufelman]

This style change was a move from the church prescribing certain behavior, often with penalties for non observance, into trying to inspire and motivate faith from within.

[John O'Malley]

So the movement was from commands to invitations, from threats to persuasion, from ruling to serving, from behavior modification to conversion of heart.

[Avery Trufelman]

As you can tell, John o' Malley is a big fan of Vatican ii. But as these meetings were happening, the slaving family wasn't exactly sure what these changes would mean for the vestment business.

[Victor Slabink]

After Vatican ii, there actually was a movement within the Catholic Church to not wear vestments anymore, to just quit doing that because they just wanted to feel close to the faithful. They did not want that distance that was always created. And they felt that wearing vestments might create some kind of distance between the faithful and, and the priest. I mean, and there were several movements. There were movements that became quite Protestant and said, we will not be wearing vestments anymore, which would be the end of the company.

[Avery Trufelman]

And a lot of priests thought that this would be the end of the Catholic Church itself. Since Vatican ii, we have seen the complete breakdown of the doctrinal discipline of the Catholic Church. This is a clip from an interview show called what Catholics Believe. And this priest is part of a small but vocal movement claiming that Catholics since Vatican II had become too ecumenical.

[Father James Martin]

Too Protestant, because Vatican II created a church without dogmas. You have people who are teaching in.

[Nick Minoni]

Catholic universities who say that sexual perversions.

[Avery Trufelman]

Are okay or abortion is okay. And so there are some priests who insist on continuing on as if Vatican II never happened. They say the Latin Mass, they turn their backs to the pews, they talk about divorce and birth control as sins. And they wear the vest form of the chasuble, the Roman chasuble, the one without sleeves.

[Victor Slabink]

So they consider themselves extremely traditional.

[Avery Trufelman]

When these kinds of priests come to slabink and pull out one of these pre Vatican II Roman chasubles, Victor knows exactly what their mindset is. And so he teases them a bit.

[Victor Slabink]

Now, when they take that out, I always say, wow, you guys are so progressive. And you see them panicking because exactly what they do not wish to do. And then I say, well, this funny how a much younger investment is actually seen as a very traditional vestment.

[Avery Trufelman]

Something that's interesting about Vatican II is that it's often talked about for all the ways that it reformed the church and pushed it forward, not in the ways that it actually took the Church back to the text and to first principles, which it actually did in some ways. And one of those ways was the fashion. The chasuble with the sleeves, the poncho actually came first before the Roman chasuble.

[Victor Slabink]

The Roman chasuble was invented, like, 10 centuries later because the embroideries were just becoming too heavy because there was embroidery all over. So what they did, they just cut off the sleeves, which is a lot less cloth. They used a lot of velvet, so they just cut off the sleeves just to make it more practical for the priest. But it was modern. It was ten centuries more modern than the first vestment that was ever worn in the church.

[Avery Trufelman]

So bringing back the original sumptuous long sleeves were sort of a dress reform movement, because you can really only make them so heavy and so embroidered and so rich. They put a ceiling on the amount of wealth a priest's body can actually support while not getting rid of the vestments entirely. I wear my owl, which is the white robe, and then I wear the stoles over it. And I typically don't put on the chasuble. They're not always the right size. For some, like, I'm five five. Celeste Geldrich is a priest based in Texas. Congregants can just call her by her first name or Mother Celeste, if they're so inclined. Now, I have other colleagues who are actually going by father, even though they're women. She's obviously not Catholic. Women can't be priests in Catholicism. So the Episcopal Church is a derivative of the Church of England. It really was a compromise between the more reformed and the more Catholic. Here's the more reformed parts. Mother Celeste is married. She has children. She's supportive of divorce and gay rights. She buys her clergy shirts from this company called Clergy Image, and they make dresses and sleeveless shirts with clerical collars on them. Mother Celeste shakes up a lot of what I thought a priest could be. But the traditional part is that when she leads a Mass, she wears vestments. We still have this love of tradition. And connecting back with something that has stood the test of time. And I think the vestments really signify that to a lot of people in the church, the values have changed a lot. The architecture has changed a lot. Its reputation has changed a lot. But then the vestments have really stayed the same. Maybe that's just the nature of people and how much change people are willing to accept. And so maybe that's the one thing you're going to keep. I struggle to think about how this relates to the life of a layperson, because when I go through a shift in mindset or values, I tend to change my clothes accordingly. You know, you get new shoes after a breakup or a new wardrobe for a job. When you go through changes, your style changes. Right. Vatican II historian John o' Malley.

[John O'Malley]

Style is not simply an ornament of speech. It's the ultimate expression of meaning. And style in life is crucial. Right. What is John o' Malley? John o' Malley's a priest. John's a Jesuit. He's an American. All that's important, right? How is John o' Malley? He's kind, he's sweet. He's a swell guy. That's what we're interested in, right?

[Avery Trufelman]

In the secular world, fashion talks a lot about style, a way of being how the wearer wants to be perceived as an individual. And it makes you lose track of the fact that fashion is an ecosystem, that it is a web connecting many people beyond me. But with vestments, that's impossible to forget.

[Father Boniface]

The monastery was supervised by professionals, but the monks gathered the fieldstones, and the design was designed by the monks.

[Avery Trufelman]

You're making this sound. It just sounds like monks are the greatest amateurs ever. Like, yeah, we'll get the stones from the field. Like, how hard could it be? We'll design a building and sell them clothes. Let's make clothes. I mean, did you know that you could do all these things before you got. No.

[Father Boniface]

Oh, that's for sure. I certainly didn't. I never imagined I'd be involved in business in any way.

[Avery Trufelman]

Part of being a Trappist monk is not only taking vows of poverty and chastity, but also a vow of obedience. You have to be game to do whatever the monastery needs, taking on the.

[Father Boniface]

Whole monastic life and a vow of obedience and a vow of stability that we make a vow to this particular place.

[Avery Trufelman]

The Trappists are a contemplative order. This monastery that Nick and I went to visit is in the lush green countryside of Massachusetts. Very remote. These monks are not out and about in the Cities preaching in the parishes, no, in their cloistered lives of simplicity and poverty and obedience. They write and think and care for each other and clothe each other.

[Father Boniface]

We make our own habits. The monks make them.

[Avery Trufelman]

Father Timothy's Trappist habit looks different than the friar habit that Father Boniface had. Father Timothy's is white with a long black scapular over it. I can think of no better way to describe a scapular than like a long table runner over his body. But he wears this black and white habit all the time. But yes, when they lead masts, the Trappist also where the beautiful, luxurious vestments.

[Father Boniface]

You know, we do have, we do.

[Avery Trufelman]

Use them, but the difference is this is the monastery where they make them.

[Father Boniface]

The thing is, we don't have an active. We're not like the Jesuits or we don't have education, we don't have hospitals, we don't do these different things. So this was a way of our kind of reaching out and sharing our life with the larger church.

[Avery Trufelman]

There in the monastery is a business which Father Timothy runs.

[Father Boniface]

I'm the director of the Holy Wood.

[Avery Trufelman]

Guild, the Holy Rude Guild, fine purveyor of vestments. Father Timothy accidentally found himself in the luxury fashion business.

[Father Boniface]

Yeah. So there's Albert's department, stoll department, chasuble department, you know, it's our way of serving. So as our monastic work. As monks, part of our rule is to be self sufficient and to make things to support ourselves.

[Avery Trufelman]

Some monasteries brew beer, some monasteries make honey. This one makes incredibly elegant clothes.

[Father Boniface]

It's something out of what we consider beautiful and fitting for the liturgy and it comes out of our monastic prayer. It's pleasing to wear something that is well made and is well done and done with care and everything. And also this is made by your community or designed by your community. You know that we do have the women who actually sew them, but we should go see them.

[Avery Trufelman]

Holyrood has 18 employees and five or six monks who help out.

[Father Boniface]

This is Brother Robert does the folding of everything at the last stage before it goes off.

[Avery Trufelman]

Brother Robert has been at Holyrood for 59 years. When did folding become your job?

[John O'Malley]

Oh, this? I don't know.

[Father Boniface]

You're in the sacristy, for example, master's.

[John O'Malley]

Ceremonies and the sub prior at that time.

[Avery Trufelman]

Yeah. May I ask a rude question?

[John O'Malley]

Yeah.

[Avery Trufelman]

Is folding an upper upgrade or a downgrade from ceremony?

[John O'Malley]

Oh, I don't know. We don't think of it in that way.

[Father Boniface]

That question never occurred to me actually. You know, he served in that particular way. And now he's doing these with the.

[Avery Trufelman]

Vestments, making these clothes, ironing these clothes, folding these clothes is as devotional and holy a task as anything. Even for those who aren't monks, who are just employees of the company, it is meditative because, you know, you're going back and forth, back and forth, and it just is something about it. Like Margaret, who is ironing a Kelly green chasuble spread out on a table. I've been doing it for so long, I'm 80 years old and I'm still running around doing it. You're 80?

[John O'Malley]

Yeah.

[Avery Trufelman]

That's what I mean. I know. That's what I say.

[Dr. Candida Moss]

That's because I do this job in.

[Avery Trufelman]

A little farmhouse at the bottom of a rolling hill. More seamstresses of Holyrood were hard at work sewing chasubles, albs and stoles with incredible love and attention. We definitely inspect really carefully for any stains, any dots. Andrea told me the level of quality control is exacting. Literally, there was a piece of fabric that you made an entire chasuble start to finish the whole thing. And then we saw one teeny, tiny, little, like, warp in the fabric. It was. Was just a little, tiny blue dot. And I was like, well, we can't send that out. No. They line up patterns perfectly so there's no break in them. They attach the cloth with French seams that have to be sewn twice. This attention and care and beauty means Holyrood chasubles last a long time. We had somebody send something back that was, like, 30 years old just to get new tassels. It is a devotional and purposeful craft, but just in the name of creation. It's totally separate from religion. I mean, Andrea's Jewish. We actually have some really great conversations because of it. And this is Sandy, who is working on a stole. I am Protestant, so does that. Does that feel. I don't know. How do you feel about being a Protestant, making investments? It doesn't make any difference to me. They're beautiful. It's a gorgeous place. It's a peaceful place. And I get to create. So that's like a dream. Holy Rood is supporting the lives of craftspeople and supporting the small, humble community of monks. As much as we mortals can conflate what is beautiful and what is rich and what is good, there's no denying that ethics under capitalism cost money, that ethics have tragically become a luxury. And this is what makes vestments so expensive, even the ones that aren't made in a monastery.

[Victor Slabink]

We work in Belgium, we have unions here. We cannot start making a vestment under $400. That is completely impossible.

[Avery Trufelman]

Viktor Slabink incorporates Catholic values into his family's business.

[Victor Slabink]

We offer fresh soup to our people every day just to make sure they have their vitamins. When there was Covid, we created free masks for the community and we serve community. But when I see a lot of products coming in right now from people who do not even have a connection nor with religion, they have no intention whatsoever of serving anybody except their own pockets.

[Avery Trufelman]

There are cheap chasubles on the market. You could find one for $90 or $100. But they're probably going to be made with shoddy materials and dubious labor practices.

[Victor Slabink]

And that, to me is tough because if it's just fashion, it's. It's already tough. But if it is serving liturgy, then I think it's extra bad. Because basically, if you're worshiping God and you're consecrating and. But it's made by a 12 year old, that doesn't make sense. Competition like that is just destroying the world economy, is destroying the textile business all over the world.

[Avery Trufelman]

I'm not the first one to say that we don't properly consider our clothes, that we treat them in an unholy way, that we don't know where they come from and don't bother to learn. And even if we wanted to learn, it's information that's hard to get. We writ large, don't treat clothes as though they were made by humans, which they were. But I think of what Father Martin said in his homily at that first Mass that I went to.

[Father James Martin]

God is relational.

[Avery Trufelman]

God is relational. Father Martin said that sentence is a distillation of everything he had learned in seminary, from scripture classes, moral theology, church history, pastoral theology, systemic theology and Christology, all boiled down to one sentence. God is relational, people say, and it's natural.

[Father James Martin]

Why do I need other people for my salvation when they annoy me so much? It is because we are, even in the face of those annoyances, imperfections and even sin, called to be in relationship.

[Avery Trufelman]

God is relational. Whatever you think about God, it is a statement about clothes, yes, about how we present to each other and how we consider each other and how we dress for each other. But also clothes support other livelihoods. There is a world of designers and makers of meanings and traditions woven into every single garment we wear. So it's no coincidence that Father Martin is a big fan of Holy Rood, the vestments made by the Trappists, the.

[Father James Martin]

Most beautiful ones are the holyrood. And it just, when you put it on, it makes you feel different about where you are and how you're to comport yourself, right? Which. That's really beautiful. It's just beautiful. And it's a way to God.

[Avery Trufelman]

And perhaps not in the superficial way that I worried it might be. It might not simply be that humans are just attracted to shiny things.

[Nick Minoni]

So there's this Swiss theologian philosopher, Hans Urs von Balthasar.

[Avery Trufelman]

That's my friend Nick again, taking us home with a little philosophy from Hans Urs von Balthasar, who is riffing on this ancient concept.

[Nick Minoni]

And basically the concept is this, that everything that is has these three properties. It has truth, goodness, and beauty. If you are a thing in this world, you have those. And so Balthazar, who was a religious philosopher, so it's all about God. He said, okay, so God also has truth, goodness and beauty. And those three things are the only ways we can really explain God to people. Like just pointing at something visually and saying, look, dude, look at the beauty of that. And perhaps that could be a way in. You see what I'm saying?

[Avery Trufelman]

I do see what Nick is saying. Hear me out. It's like how John Lennon started to play guitar because he thought it looked cool. Or how a kid joins a sports team because she likes the uniforms. Or how you find the love of your life because at first you find them pretty. Everything has beauty, goodness and truth. Although you may see one before the others, the challenge is not to conflate beauty and goodness and truth, but to see them as parts of a whole. Not to disregard beauty or call it superficial, nor to worship it and put it on a pedestal, but to see it as a piece of something larger. Just as the beauty of the sports uniforms might lead the kid to the goodness of teamwork and the truth of the mind, body, connection of a athleticism, just like the beauty in the church is supposed to lead one to the goodness of community and the Bible and ultimately the truth of spiritual fulfillment. The beauty of clothing, the fantasy of fashion, led me to the goodness of quality and style and craftsmanship and tradition. And every single exploration from there on out has been in the pursuit of. Of something like a larger truth. And now perhaps the clothes themselves matter less to me. But I couldn't have gotten to this place without them. A pocket, a piece of paper. Words from yesterday. There's a portrait painted on the things we love. Articles of interest is made with love by me, Avery Trufelman with reporting tape gathering and inspiration from Nick Minoni. If you want to hear his his project about the Vatican. It will be out soon from crooked media, so keep an eye out for it. Also Music this episode and every episode by Ray Dawnroyal with theme music by Sesame. If you want to see images of chasubles and Vatican II, go to articlesofinterest.substack.com that's it for the year. I'm gonna go disappear. I'm gonna write this book. See you on the other side. There'll be portrait painted on the things we love. Radiotopia from PRX.