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- [00:00]
A
Hey, it's Avery. I'm able to make the work I do because of Radiotopia, a non profit that sells the ads on my show and they pay me the money up front and then they make the money back for themselves and then afterwards get this, we have this incredible revenue share model where I just get like most of the money. Radiotopia takes a little bit, but they're really not in this game to become some sort of giant media juggernaut. Radiotopia provides a home for the strange independent voices in podcasting and they really only do it out of love of the art. Consider supporting articles of interest, my fellow Radiotopia shows and all of the future shows that have yet to be born that will need places like Radiotopia to help give them the lift that they need to eventually make their way into your ears. Go to Radiotopia fm. Donate and donate whatever feels comfortable to you. Time is running out to get all the shopping done for the people who are still on your gift list. And so instead of rushing from one place to another, why not just go to Macy's? Because it's Macy's. They have every item across every imaginable category from toys to kitchen to bedding to skincare to fashion. And Macy's Great Gift Sale is going on right now through December 24th. You can save 30 to 60% on the best gifts that won't disappoint. Come in store for quick access or if you go to Macy's dot by December 21st at 5pm EST, you're guaranteed delivery by Christmas. None of it will feel last minute at all. Shop in store or online@macy's.com there's new research on pleasure that's actually fascinating and the site OMG yes. Makes it accessible to everyone. OMG yes. Shares findings from the largest ever study into women's pleasure and intimacy in partnership with researchers at Yale and Indiana University. They asked tens of thousands of couples what they wished they discovered sooner and they found the patterns in those discoveries. And all that wisdom about pleasure and intimacy is organized as hundreds of short videos, animations and how tos on omgyes.com and by the way, half of OMG yes users are men. OMG yes. Is consulted by people of all genders, so hooray for generous lovers, right? You'll find specific research backed techniques. It's the science of sexual generosity in action. See what they discovered today@omgs.com that's O M G Y dashes.com hey, it's Avery. Okay, I have to Admit, I debated whether or not I should put this on the feed because I was like, is it self indulgent to post an interview with myself? Maybe it is. But this was unlike any other interview that I've ever been able to do because I was interviewed live on stage by one of my true heroes, Jad Abumrad. He is the founder of Radiolab, and currently he is the host of this beautiful show called Fela Kuti Fear no Man. And it is a portrait, warts and all of the artist Fela Kuti. And he's Jad Abumrad. So he brings his signature blend of philosophy and sound design and music theory all together with just some incredible reporting. And I was just completely chuffed when he asked if he could interview me live on stage at this club called Ludlow House in New York City as part of a ongoing series made by On Air Presents. And this was a really small crowd. It was this very, like, intimate little space. And so I was like, you know what? Let me just put it beyond the room. We'll call it an epilogue. Just as a disclaimer. I mean, Jad and I are just talking on stage. I'm talking off the dome. This is not my normal rehearsed, fact checked sort of thing. So sorry if I made a mistake, especially if you're from Finland and I got parts of your history wrong. If you're like, why is she talking about Finland? Just listen, you'll hear.
- [04:22]
B
Okay. Hi. So excited for you all to be here. I. So the rules of engagement are simple. I'm going to ask Avery a bunch of questions, and then you guys will have a chance to ask questions. So just log any thoughts or questions that I forget to ask or that. That come up for you as you're listening, and we'll throw it to you at the end. Avery is one of my favorite storytellers, and so I asked her to join me in conversation because I am mildly obsessed with her latest series gear. I think it's truly an incredible creation, and I have so many questions. And so here we are.
- [05:01]
A
Thank you so much. That really means.
- [05:05]
B
But I thought, who here has heard parts of the series? Okay, cool. Well, for those of you who are not clapping or clapping just because you feel you should, let me just play a clip from episode one. This is sort of from the center of episode one. It'll sort of get us on the same page, and then I'll ask some questions about it.
- [05:26]
A
It does not take a fashion journalist to tell you that everybody is wearing outdoor clothes more. Look around you. For years now, leggings have been pants, and runners have been dashing by you in increasingly more Cyborgian rainproof shells. Bankers and businessmen have traded blazers for Patagonia vests, and punks have swapped leather for camouflage. And even I, who vowed I would never wear sweatpants ever, have been dressing like Sporty Spice. Why are we all wearing outdoor performance gear? Like, why are we wearing arc' teryx to, like, go to the grocery store and buy eggs?
- [06:00]
C
I think there are two different reasons, and one that will be a little more palatable for all the listeners to hear is that it works well, right? It's effective in, like, a day like today. It's raining outside, and it's nice to be able to stay warm and dry even if you're just going down the block.
- [06:15]
A
This is Rachel S. Gross.
- [06:16]
C
I'm a history professor at the University.
- [06:18]
A
Of Colorado Denver, and she is the author of Shopping all the Way to the how the Outdoor Industry Sold Nature to America.
- [06:25]
C
The other answer is a much kind of deeper one, and it's a historical question.
- [06:29]
A
Hell, yeah. Here we go.
- [06:30]
C
It's about, what meanings do people attach to the kinds of clothing that they wear, to the brands that they're wearing on their chests? And it is steeped in American lore about recovering the rugged masculinity of the American frontier.
- [06:44]
B
I wanted to start with that because there's just so much in that clip that I love. I love the. It's funny. It's so funny. But I love that moment when you're. You've got a historian who's. Who's saying a thing, and you just drop in and you're like, hell, yeah, here we go. That is such a great moment. And it made me wonder, like, in that moment, you're hearing something that you really like, and, like, what are you looking for? Like, when you cover fashion, what are you always looking for?
- [07:17]
A
Well, so we were having this little exchange backstage just now where I was like, oh, Chad, we kind of match. We do kind of match in what we're wearing. And Jad was like, oh, I was really worried about what to wear tonight because, like, you're a fashion journalist. And I do get this. Sometimes people are like, oh, I want to impress you because you work in fashion, but I don't really know anything about. Well, yeah, it's not like I cover the runways or what's going on right now in fashion. I'm very curious about the messages that we're all sending out with our clothes and the messages we think we're sending out with our clothes. And those are all based on a shared set of symbols and a shared set of assumptions, which means it's like history. We have to go back and see where these all came from. Why do certain cuts of pants equal Western? Why do certain kinds of shirts equal preppy? It shouldn't really. It's just a shirt. The shirt doesn't have any particular. It's just a piece of cloth. But yeah, I'm really interested in both the history and the literal manufacture of where these things come from. And so when my biggest pet peeve in podcasting is when someone says, but to understand that first we have to go back in time. But it's so hard not to say because that's what I want to say all the time to get into the history. You present something and then you're like, but to understand that first we have to go back in time. So when that historian basically said it for me, in other words, I was like, hell yeah, good job. That was a nice transition. And so it was like my own internal delight. But also to call attention to it made it so that I didn't have to do it.
- [09:10]
B
Gotcha.
- [09:11]
A
You know, it's like we're going back in history now, but.
- [09:13]
B
So you refer to yourself a couple maybe in this clip. I'm not sure. As a fashion journalist and it's interesting, it's an interesting. Because your definition of fashion is maybe not most people's, but if journalism is the first draft of history, what is fashion?
- [09:34]
A
Fashion is the externalization of your. It is both the externalization of your internal state and. And the individualization of the collective state. It is expressing what we're all going through and what you're going through in your time at the same time. It is like the most obvious barometer of time made visible. It's sort of nuts. Like, my favorite example that I love to give is there's this great game online where you can click on it and it will show you different pictures from the past and you have to guess when the photograph was taken. And it's actually really. I find it's quite hard to do. But the. You realize that the things you're looking at are the clothes. Like the buildings last a long time. Sometimes the cars can tell you what era you're in. But even there, it's like a little wishy washy. You're really. That's how you can tell what era someone is in. It is the literal boundary between you and the world. And it navigates that boundary.
- [10:40]
B
Huh. That's really interesting. So it's. I'm suddenly thinking of, like, semiotics, I guess. Right. It's like what. It's the signaling and what the signals mean.
- [10:50]
A
Yeah. It's how you're choosing to stand out and fit in at the same time. I've heard it once said. This is. I'm totally paraphrasing some very famous. It was like, George Simmel or someone. So this isn't me, but this idea that fashion results from our need to stand in, to stand out and fit in. Like, if we all wanted to stand out, we would all just sort of wear the craziest thing we could possibly think of and we'd all look really, really different. And if we all wanted to look exactly the same, we'd all just be in uniform. But fashion is this very delicate dance of wanting to look individual, yet wanting to look like everybody else. And looking like everybody else carries a bit of a. Like, come on, sheeple. Like. It has a bit of a derogatory tone to it, but I think it's actually really beautiful. It's the way we read each other. It's the way that we know maybe who will have something in common with us. It's how we follow each other. I think there's something very, very sweet and very lovely that the more time you start to spend with someone, you kind of start dressing like them. You kind of start dressing like your group of friends. It's this way that we. Like, this even happens in the animal kingdom. Do you remember there was this phenomenon of orcas wearing salmon as hats?
- [12:07]
B
No.
- [12:07]
A
Oh, yeah. This is a real thing. Like, one orca started wearing a salmon as a hat, and then others started falling. It's like a thing. It's not just us, and it's not just about clothing. So this is something that I also like to say about fashion, is that I think about fashion in the. Fashion exists in the same way that, like, love exists. Love exists. Love is real. It's like a feeling that you have and it's out there and. And it is commodified and it is used to sell you things. And because it exists and it is so strong in you, it is easily hijacked. And fashion is real. Fashion exists. It exists under capitalism, it existed under feudalism, it exists under communism. It's just like, it's a part of. We are always looking towards each other. And it is because of. Because it is real, because it exists in us. It is so easily abused and hijacked and, like, used to tap into our deepest anxieties and fears and a way to make us spend money. But I think it exists on its own.
- [13:07]
B
Yeah. And what I find so interesting about your work, and particularly in this series, is the signals that you, or let me say it differently, the cultural impressions and cultural histories that you are wearing on your body that you are completely unaware of. I want to play one clip from this is another clip from your first episode that is specifically about, really the subject of all seven episodes, which is the military and the outdoor industry and how they are intertwined.
- [13:38]
A
I also used to not think about the military. I mean, I thought about it and that I was against it categorically as an institution. But I didn't, like, know any veterans or active duty soldiers for most of my life, basically, until I started working on this series. And if you're listening to this and you are a soldier or a veteran, I can just feel you rolling your eyes at this classically clueless civilian. I know we live in this moment in history where there's a gaping rift between this country's military and this country's civilians. There's even a term for it like college students take courses on the military civilian divide. And it's gotten to the very practical nightmare where, as I write this, President Trump is ordering Marines and the National Guard into American cities to detain American citizens. We've been pitted against each other, and yet, oddly enough, American soldiers and American civilians have never been more intertwined than we both are now in our clothing. We all wear the same things, our styles.
- [14:52]
B
I'm gonna fade down there. Fade down from you on tape to you here. The experience of listening to this series is. Was profound for me because I. I walked into my closet at a certain point and I thought, oh, my God, the military is literally dressing me. Every single thing that is in my wardrobe, and my wardrobe is very, like, basic, but like zippers, buttons. All of these things were made for us, are continuing to be made for us by the military. And it's a really weird. I mean, on some level, obvious. We all know that, like, the military industrial complex of the United States supports a lot of the things, a lot of the basic privileges that we have, and we'd rather not think about that a lot of the time, but it's such an interesting experience to tie it very concretely and directly with the clothes that we wear. I'm just curious, like, over the course of making this series, how has your. What's your evolution been on your thinking about our relationship to the military?
- [15:58]
A
It's so embarrassing to say because I, I really did come in guns blazing, you know, like, fuck the military. You know, I. But honestly, not that I'm like, I'm enlisting. I love the military now, but I.
- [16:15]
B
Thought it was a cool move to be. Be so, like, kind of like to state your politics so plainly.
- [16:20]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [16:20]
B
Then spend seven episodes unraveling it and.
- [16:24]
A
And multiple soldiers and veterans were like, you caught me rolling my eyes as I was rolling my eyes. I'm like, yeah, I know. But I think I've just realized how much more complicated it actually was because I think I was also like, yeah, there are these. They're the military indust Complex are these like dark machinations behind the scenes. But once I actually met a lot of soldiers and talked to them and met a lot of veterans and talked to them and also met a lot of people who work in the industry, like making these clothes for the outdoors and for the Department of Defense. I was like, oh, this is actually like a lot more complicated than I thought it was because I was under the impression that you know these companies because they're. Because, okay, so a lot of the outdoor companies that are very famous that we all know and love do a lot of military contracts. And a lot of them really do not want you to know. They really bend over backwards. The most obvious example of this is Patagonia. They did it under a separate company and they even changed that company's name. And the company is technically independent, so they're like, it's not us.
- [17:40]
B
What does Patagonia make for the military jackets?
- [17:43]
A
You know, a lot of these are for like, special ops for these elite high level soldiers. Outdoor research does it. Arc' teryx does it. And even a lot of the places that don't do it now used to do it in the past. Like, almost all the outdoor companies have some sort of connection to the military, but you really, they hide it on their website. You sort of have to know about it. And so in my mind I was like, they're clearly getting buckets of dark money from the government. This is what's going on. And while they are occasionally getting these major, major government contracts, it's actually, it's more nuanced than I thought it was because they have to go through these huge government bureaucracies and everything has to be made in the United States for the military because it's a national security risk. If you are, let's say we fought a war with China and our uniforms are being made in China, then they'd have a Huge tactical advantage over us. They could just, like, stop sending uniforms or, like, lace all our uniforms with something or, like, I don't know. It's a huge. Especially given how high tech these clothes are now. It's a huge tactical advantage for any company to, like, manufacture our clothes. So they all have to be made domestically. It's really expensive. It's really complicated. And I found out ultimately it's actually the other way around. That, at least in the case of outdoor research, who was kind enough to sort of let me in and show me how they work, it's actually the civilian clothes supporting the military clothes, not the other way around. Like, it's mostly like we are supporting them. Yeah. They were like, it's 20% of our work is military, 80% is outdoor industry, and they, like, take turns supporting each other. I was like, the metaphor makes itself right there. It's. It's. We are actually much more interconnected than I thought, but there's something about making it this, like, shameful secret that has to be hidden that ultimately, like, at the end of the day, I went to. For my research, I went to a lot of military conferences that were very upsetting and made me realize how everything in our lives is connected to the military. But at the end of the day, like, these are jackets. They're not bombs. You know, I don't actually. And I think if you have to pick your battles of what to rebel against, there are way bigger fights than, like, keeping people warm. And so I. I just think this should not be a thing that companies hide. I don't think this is something that people should be upset about. Even though it does play into this larger system. It's not this evil, dark thing that I thought it was. It's kind of fascinating, and especially given how amazing a lot of the soldiers, you know, they, like, speak five languages, they jump out of planes. They've done. They're so smart. They've done amazing stuff. I'm like, well, I want you to be warm. You know, I want you to be protected. I would not wish a bad jacket upon you ever. So I don't know. My thinking's really, really changed because people sometimes ask me, like, how can I make sure my jacket isn't supporting the military? I'm like, I don't know. I think it's like, I think that ship has sailed, and I think that ship has sailed. And I think there's, like, a different question. And I don't think it's about the jackets. I think it's about, like, the war, it's other stuff. Let's not take it out on the jackets.
- [21:00]
B
Right? Well, speaking of jackets, I mean, one of the stories you tell is about the M43 and then I guess it gets updated in after Vietnam or right before Vietnam and the way in which that jacket initially was for the military and then it gets co opted by the anti war movement and they put sort of peace signs on it and that these become literal canvases upon which we paint our politics in a way. But the story that really stopped me in my tracks, and I think this is probably true for a lot of people who listen to the series, is the story of camouflage. I wonder if you could sort of. Well, this is a bit of a spoiler, but you're all here, tell the story of camouflage a little bit and, and that drama and how it unfolds and how you got access to it.
- [21:48]
A
Camouflage is an insane story that I'm obsessed with now. So when you're on the subway sometimes you see like people in camouflage walking around. And it never dawned on me to ask like, who are they? Who are those guys? Because I was like, I don't know, they're military people.
- [22:15]
B
You mean like soldiers of the police?
- [22:18]
A
I was like. But now I'm like, are they soldiers or are they police? Because sometimes you see police wearing camouflage and it just says police on them. Or you see like the images from the, from, you know, from Chicago recently and you see people looking like soldiers just wearing these bulletproof vests that say police. And I never quite realized how similar soldiers and police actually dress now. And so much of it is tied up with camouflage because not only is everybody wearing camouflage, they're basically wearing the same camouflage. Not only are like soldiers and police wearing the same camouflage, SWAT teams are wearing the same camouflage and border patrol is wearing the same camouflage and the National Guard is wearing the same camouflage and it's the same camouflage and that like oath keepers are wearing and a lot of militia groups. And it's like, why is everybody wearing the same exact camouflage?
- [23:19]
B
Was that the question that you started with? Was it like, wow, who makes this camouflage?
- [23:24]
A
That wasn't the question that I started with, but it was what I started noticing afterwards. And the way we all got to this place was functionally through a trend cycle was like everybody copying a trend. And what happened was long, long, long, very interesting story short. There's this company that's here in Brooklyn, they're in the navy yard. There are these like, for lack of a better word, hipster art school students they went to Cooper Union and they designed. They were like, we can, we can make money designing stuff for the military. And they designed this camouflage, this cool looking camouflage that they were like, this will work. It's kind of like that line from, from Anchorman. Like 70% of the time, it works all the time. They were like, this will work in most environments, which is because it's a huge problem if your camouflage like really stands out. But they're like, we can make one that like mostly stands out. Especially because our soldiers were getting deployed in so many different places all over the world. It was proving to be a really, really big problem. Like, we couldn't issue as many matching camouflages. And they were like, we have this one multi purpose one and it was called multicam. And they presented it to the military and they're like, do you want to use this camouflage? The military said no. And then they pulled out this like notoriously ugly camouflage that everybody hated. It's like this digital camouflage that doesn't even work very well as a camouflage. Everybody. It's like a historian I talked to called it one of the most notoriously dunked on camouflages. It's just, everybody hates it, but most soldiers just have no choice. They have to wear it. But if you are elite enough of a soldier, if you are like a very, very high level soldier, you do actually get to choose what you wear. Like, very elite. If you are on Delta Force or Steel Team 6 or one of these like top, top tier guys, you can choose your own clothes. And so because they hated this ugly camouflage, they were like, we want to wear this cool one, multicam. So they basically started wearing it. And then long, long, long story short, it was just a trend story. Like everybody started copying them because those were the hip, cool, like badass guys wearing multicam. Slowly, every other, all the special forces in other countries, then all the armies in other countries, they, then our military made like a knockoff version of that camouflage. Like right now in Russia and Ukraine, soldiers have to wear armbands to tell who's on what team because everybody looks the same. It's so nuts. Like this one camouflage is taking over. They are so successful. It's unbelievable. And it's actually a real. It's really dangerous. It's really dangerous not to be able to know who's on what side or who's with what government agency. They all do different things. Like you should be able to tell them apart without a big sign that says police. So it's so the funny thing is it's ultimately a trend story, but it has really, really, really dire consequences. And also it's just available. Like, you can just buy it. You can just buy multicam. Any of us, we can just go to a store and buy multicam. And it's not regulated. Well, it is regulated for the manufacturers, but no one's going to like, need to see your ID for you to buy it. Like, people wear it for hunting.
- [26:48]
B
So there's not like a government issued camouflage. Like, because, like you see dudes at the gym, right, all in camouflage. And you're like, why you're at the gym. But like, that those people are. Is that the same camouflage that the.
- [27:00]
A
So the government issue one is technically different, but if you look at them next to each other online, you can't tell them apart. The government one is called OCP Operational Camouflage Pattern. But it looks almost exactly the same as multicam. It's like one's like a little more brown and one's like a little more green, but they are essentially the same. It's so confusing.
- [27:24]
B
And how do you get. I mean, this is. Because this is one of those interesting stories that's sort of hiding in plain sight. But I had never heard it until your podcast. How do you go about getting people to talk? Was it an easy situation where people were just wanting to tell the story and waiting for someone to show up, or did you have to sort of like sneak in through the side door? Like, what was your process?
- [27:46]
A
It was really, really hard. I'm really. Thank you for asking this, Jad, because it was. We were talking about this backstage. It's really hard in a pod because, like, I really wanted to toot my own horn in this, but I didn't want, I didn't, I didn't want to be in the show. Be like, these were really hard interview used to get. This is incredibly rare. But you don't really want to like pat yourself on the back in your own show. But these were really like the company who makes multicam. I don't think they've ever talked to the press in a serious way or told the story. And if they have, it hasn't been in like 10 years. It's like, what was it?
- [28:23]
B
Was it your body of work that sort of made them trust you? Do you have a sense of why they said yes?
- [28:28]
A
You know how it is when you're doing deep research. You sort of talk to enough people. I met this amazing beat reporter named Emily Walzer who's covered the outdoor industry forever. And she was like, oh, you have to meet this amazing woman, Amber Brookman. And Amber Brookman was in charge of a lot of the domestic mills that printed textiles in the United States. She's, like this amazing powerhouse, and she was one of the first people to print Multicam. And, like, she put in a word to those guys and was like, you should talk to Avery. And that's what got me in. And I was shocked. I couldn't. I couldn't believe that they said yes. And they were so generous. But it was really funny to go there to their factory, because it's right there in. You know, I'd emailed them a bunch of times. I didn't respond, but their warehouse is right there in the Navy yard. And it's, like, so hardcore looking, you know, like, everything's in camouflage. But they were, like, playing Arcade Fire in the lobby. It was this weird, like, hipster hardcore blend. Like, yeah, Multicam is in MoMA. They have this, like, strangely high pedigree. It's in the permanent collection in MoMA.
- [29:40]
B
The pattern itself.
- [29:41]
A
The pattern itself.
- [29:42]
B
Just the pattern?
- [29:43]
A
Yeah. Like, as a piece of design, it's like, in the MOMA permanent collection. And they were like, we go all the time. We love. It's so cool. We're members for life now. It was so interesting. And then the other part was getting the perspective from the military. And that was another whole rigmarole, was getting their perspective. And I worked on them for so long, that was like, my big goal is, like, I need to go to the place where they design all this stuff, which is in Natick, Massachusetts. And it was another one of these things of, like, calling people, interviewing people, be like, do you know someone at Natick? Do you know someone at Natick? And, like, asking around. And then ultimately, do you know the science writer Mary Roach?
- [30:23]
B
Yeah.
- [30:24]
A
She had covered them before, and they were like, we checked with Mary Roach, and she knows you, and she vouched for you. It's always like, some. Like, you never know who the connection is going to be.
- [30:35]
B
That's why you have to be nice to everybody.
- [30:37]
A
You got to be nice to everybody. You never know.
- [30:39]
B
Yeah.
- [30:40]
A
So thanks, Mary. Thanks, Amber. Yeah, like, these are the people who really helped open a door and to get both of their stories. But it's never. And that's the thing. I knew I wanted to tell the story of camouflage, but it's really hard to tell, especially on a podcast. Like, am I going to describe camouflages on the radio? Like, you can't really do that. So I was like, I'm just Gonna focus on one.
- [31:05]
B
Yeah.
- [31:06]
A
And you can Google it if you want, or you. I don't think you have to. I think you can also just sort of hear it as a story.
- [31:10]
B
No, I remember I Google. I Googled it the moment I listened, and I was like, oh, that's everywhere. Yeah, it's everywhere. Yeah. Well, you mentioned. I. I would love to play one clip from. This is from your. The fourth episode. It was a really interesting moment to listen. So for the first three episodes, you were telling the story of these various articles of clothing, like a jacket or, like, lightweight gear. And you're focusing on the characters who are the designers of those things. And then in the fourth episode, you do something really interesting to set it up. I mean, you start every episode with a guy doing a sort of drill instructor title sequence. This is. I think this one is. I don't know which one this is from.
- [31:58]
D
Listen up. Focus your attention on me now. Do not infuriate me and make me repeat myself. Do you understand me? Chapter one.
- [32:09]
B
So that's how you start. You start with that guy, and that guy is at the top of every episode. And as I was listening, I was like, oh, this is like. Just like. It's kind of a joke. It's kind of like a clever joke. But then in chapter four, you do this. You totally flip it, and suddenly we meet the guy. And it's such an interesting moment to. It's almost like, well, I'll play it and then I'll sort of reflect on the back end.
- [32:33]
D
So I was a rifleman and a grenadier and a machine gunner, all that pretty much at the same rank, Private, then sergeant in a airborne infantry unit.
- [32:43]
A
Were you, like, aspiring to ascend through the ranks, or is that just something that happens if you stick around long enough?
- [32:49]
D
Well, you have to aspire because at certain points, it's kind of like up or out. You don't get to stay as long as you want to stay at certain ranks. You have to go if you don't.
- [32:59]
A
So you wanted to stay.
- [33:02]
D
I wanted to stay because that's all I had to do was to stay. Because I grew up in the Army. I joined the army when I was 17.
- [33:11]
B
But it's such an interesting moment because it. It's the experience of focusing on the clothes for so many minutes, and then suddenly it's like you go inward in a way and you understand the. The person wearing the clothes, which then reflects back on the clothes. It's like. It almost completes the circuit that you were describing between clothes and Behavior, clothes, and soul, in a way. I don't really have a question attached to this. Thank you for saying. I just think it's such an. It's such a wonderful move that you made. Like, you introduce us to a character almost as a joke, and then you suddenly make us care so hard with him.
- [33:50]
A
Ray's the man rules. Dr. Ray Christian, I should say. Ray has an amazing podcast called what's Ray Saying? Yeah. And part of his show is he just kind of, like, talks, and he's so good at talking. And one of his episodes is, like, myths people don't understand about the military. And I was like, wait, Ray, can we talk about that? And so that was what the interview was based on. And then it was only after that that I was like, could you do some drill sergeant announcements for me? And he's so good. I didn't coach him at all. Just like, he's like, what about this? He sent me this file, and they were perfect. They were all amazing. And, like, I have to finish the last episode tonight, but he really, like, hams it up for the last one. He's like, all right, boys, gather around. Like, this is what we've all been training for. This is episode seven. It's like, so every time I had to make an episode, I felt like he was pumping me up. It was so great. He's like a gift. Yeah, Ray rules.
- [34:49]
B
I just also want to underline the thing you just said, because I'm so grateful that you're here because you're going to leave this event and go finish the final episode of this series. Which delivers when? Tomorrow or the next day?
- [35:02]
A
Wednesday. I've got so much time. Wednesday, the whole day.
- [35:05]
B
I mean, I just spent three years working. Working on a series, so that, to me, that gives me panic, frankly.
- [35:10]
A
Oh, but you've worked this way before. You're no stranger to working this way.
- [35:16]
B
But I'm tempted to ask you. So this clip was the moment I. And you sort of revealed this at the top of our conversation. This is when I really started to question that you are, in fact, a fashion journalist, which you say you identify yourself that way many times. I'm like, I think you're somewhere like a humanist historian interested in human behavior through the lens of fashion or something. There's some other. Doesn't matter what I think. Let me ask you this. Like, when did you become interested in both journalism and fashion and then together.
- [35:53]
A
All right, just cutting in here. Avery again in the studio, slipping in. So Jad asked this really great question, and before we get to that answer and some larger questions, let me just slip in a little ad break real quick. Time is running out to get all the shopping done for the people who are still on your gift list. And so instead of rushing from one place to another, why not just go to Macy's? Because it's Macy's. They have every item across every imaginable category from toys to kitchen to bedding to skincare to fashion. And Macy's great gift sale is going on right now through December 24th. You can save 30 to 60% on the best gifts that won't disappoint. Come in store for quick access or if you go to Macy's.com by December 21st at 5:00pm EST, you're guaranteed delivery by Christmas. None of it will feel last minute at all. Shop in store or online@macy's.com I know, I know it's gift giving time, but how do you find something that's really, really special? I mean, can you imagine the look on your significant other's face when they open up the box and see a real Cartier watch or an Hermes scarf? This is where the RealReal comes in. I shop and sell on the RealReal and it's great because trust me, at the RealReal you can afford this. It's 90% off retail. Everything the RealReal sells is authenticated in person by luxury and fashion experts. And also the RealReal is an amazing way to sell. They do everything for you. The photography, the pricing, the customer service, the shipping. It could not be more convenient. The RealReal is the world's largest and most trusted resource for authenticated luxury resale. With thousands of pre loved luxury arrivals daily. No one does resale like the RealReal and no one makes the holidays shine brighter than the RealReal. And now get $25 off your first purchase when you go to therealreal.com articles. That's therealreal.com articles to get your $25 off, start shopping now at therealreal.com articles.
- [38:12]
E
This show is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at o d o o.com that's o d o o.com let.
- [38:42]
B
Me ask you this. Like, when did you become interested in both journalism and fashion and then together. So you can pick. Pick either one.
- [38:53]
A
Well, I always was, like, very interested in dressing, and I always dressed kind of weird. Like, really weird. And I never really understood why. Like, when I was in high school, I would wear these really nutty outfits. I would go visit my aunt in San Francisco, and I would go thrift shopping and buy what I think now I'm like, rock on, high school me. That was so cool. But at the time, I was like, why were you wearing in high school, like, gold lame dresses and, like, fur stoles? And I'm like, why am I not getting invited to parties? Like, yeah, everyone thinks you're a little alien. Well, of course they're not inviting you to parties. And I think at the time I knew, I was like, I think I'm alienating people, but I don't really understand why I'm doing this. And I think it was this instruction in the sort of social nature of clothing. I think I was so against fitting in that I was standing out too much, and I didn't realize the signals that it was sending. I thought I was having fun, but I didn't realize it was kind of like, asocial.
- [39:48]
B
Oh, interesting. So you were. You were. At what point did you begin to see the clothes you were wearing as messaging?
- [39:57]
A
Honestly, when I went to college and there was this anonymous confession board where people could write whatever they wanted about people, and everyone was like, who does Avery Trufelman think she is? I was like, oh, my God. Like, I. I was just horsing around, and I was like, oh, no, these really mean something.
- [40:10]
B
Like, you're really horrible. Someone wrote that.
- [40:12]
A
But. No, I get it. But I get it. I get it. Like, if you're walking, don't extend them.
- [40:16]
B
That's horrible.
- [40:17]
A
No.
- [40:17]
B
Okay.
- [40:18]
A
But I get it. Like, if you're walking around in, like, a costume, being like, I'm not of this world, like, who do you think you are? You know? And I was like, oh, this. This, like, means something. I'm sending out a message that I'm not in control of. And I. That was not my intention, but. And I. And I think it was this idea of, like, cultural cohesion that I want to. I want to stand out. I want to express myself, but I also want to be, like, inviting somehow. I don't. I realized the message I was sending was like, don't talk to me, you know? And that was not my. My goal at all. I was like, it was A more powerful messaging than I realized.
- [41:00]
B
That's interesting.
- [41:02]
A
And did you.
- [41:03]
B
Because I know you. Okay, so now I'm thinking of the journalism part of fashion journalism. Right. I know that you come from a, if not a journalist family. Maybe a journalist family. I know that they were radio, right? Like radio is. Your parents met at a radio station. So did. Did they? And I love this story, and I wish my kids were here to hear the story, to know that, like, you had parents who worked in journalism and you thought they were cool, apparently.
- [41:28]
C
Did you.
- [41:29]
B
I mean, did they communicate to you a sense that journalism was a thing you could do and that it was. It was a way to make sense of the signals in the world?
- [41:38]
A
Well, they were definitely like radio people. Like, my. My mom did live recordings at wnyc and like, my dad worked in publicity, so they were very much like radio station people. And even though they would, like, produce programs and they did do journalism sometimes, I don't think they identified as, like, journalists first and foremost. They were very much about, like, cutting tape with a knife and like, smoking cigarettes after midnight. And Allen Ginsberg walked in and like, WNYC was such a crazy place. I was like, oh, that I want, I want that. Like, that's cool. It's a cool job. And I think I fantasized about being like a station person. You know, I was like, oh, I want to help prep the host. I want to, like, read books for the host and like, give them questions and cut tape with a knife and do all those things. I don't think I really had it in. I didn't think that I would necessarily be the one with a microphone making sense of the world this way. I really thought I'd be like a radio station person. But I think the idea of fashion as something that could be explored really came to me when I went to this museum exhibit about Vivienne Westwood. And I didn't realize that a designer invented punk clothing. I was like, whoa, oh my God. That is the first sort of.
- [42:57]
B
Wait, so punks didn't invent punk clothing? That was. It was a.
- [43:02]
A
By, like a designer by Vivian Westwood. And like, sure, some of it was inspired by the street, but a lot of the sort of canonical ideas of what we think punk clothing is, sure some of it came from, like, Richard Hell, but a lot of it came from this designer that had a very expensive, high end shop and then started doing Runway shows. And it was the first example. I was like, this is what this is for. Because I think the world of fashion design had Been so sort of severed from every day. You see things on a Runway and I could give the whole cerulean blue monologue, but I didn't realize more than again, this idea that fashion exists outside of commerce. It wasn't just someone telling you what to buy. It's like this designer gave me a new language for what is beautiful. That someone could have hair that sticks out all over the place or like, you know, makeup that looks strange and be like, that's beautiful. That's interesting that she gave us a new. That you could wear a shirt with holes in it, you know, that she just gave. She handed us this totally new framework for how to think about ourselves and how to identify ourselves. And I was like, oh, this is what this is for. This is what this is. This is how you push boundaries and this is what all the boundary pushing is for. And it really changes. It really changes people. It really changes things. But I think I was, I really wanted the show. I used to work for the podcast 99% invisible and it was about architecture and design and it was really building off this legacy of like design criticism and architecture criticism. And I was like, oh, it'd be cool to apply that lens to fashion. Not that I'm a critic, but this sort of, this lens of not just like, what's new but what does it all mean, the sort of sense making element. And you know, the funny thing is, Jad, like when you say it's not fashion journalism, it's being curious about humanity. Like, I do think that's sort of what fashion is. And I do think this word has been. Because everything, when you're studying fashion, you're studying human desires and aspiration and the. When people talk about trends, you know, like the trends towards minimalism or maximalism, the trends towards driving or biking, like, these are ways we are headed. And I do think that's fashion. I just think it's manifested externally through clothes. And I think it's taken a long time for me. And I think that's part of why I'm like, I'm a fashion journalist. Because I think it has to. To get. Yeah, it has to stop. Even though I'm embarrassed to say it. Just like I'm embarrassed to be a podcaster. I'm like trying to get less embarrassed about saying it. So I'm like, I'm a fashion journalist. Yeah, fashion journalist.
- [45:43]
B
But it strikes me that your definition of fashion is really, it's very interesting to me. It's almost like fashion not as choices about what we wear, but it's almost like the grammar of culture in a way.
- [45:54]
A
Exactly.
- [45:55]
B
The way that culture is actually lived and embodied rather than thought about, spoken.
- [45:59]
A
About culture and reality. You know, it's also informed by, like, what's the weather? You know, it's informed by, like, climate change and where are you going and how are other people expecting you to dress? And. Yeah, yeah, it's like. It's very. I mean, tonight I almost was gonna text you, like, what are you gonna wear? Because I didn't know if we were, like, dressing up or not. Like you. It's about, like, what space did we decide to make together? Yeah, it's very. It's very social. It's very fascinating. And it's also. It kind of makes every day. It's just something that I like to do when I'm on the subway. I love just looking at what people are wearing, and I love observing them. And I don't know, once you can kind of find a light in. Just makes people more interesting.
- [46:43]
B
Yeah. Was there a moment that you, as a fashion journalist where you heard your voice, where you recognized something that that would become your distinct thing? I'm curious if there is a moment where that happened or moments.
- [46:58]
A
Yeah. Well, it's funny because it wasn't really about. It wasn't about clothing per se, but I felt like it was about trends. It was a story that I did for 99% invisible. I was like, I think I finally found my voice and what I want to do. It was a story about where curvy pools come from, like, why pools are bean shaped. And because someone asked me that question, they were like, why are pools bean shaped? And, like, I don't know. And as I looked into it, it unfurled into, like, one of the strangest, most interesting stories I've ever done. And it did end up being sort of a story about ideas and.
- [47:38]
B
Wait, wait, just tell. Give us the reveal. Why are they bean shaped?
- [47:42]
A
Okay, so Finland, 1917. I'll try to make this quick. So Finland is established as a nation, and it is on the. Basically the border between Scandinavia and Russia. And so it has to make this very definitive choice to be like, we are not Slavic. We are. They're not Scandinavian, technically, but they are Nordic. They're like, we are aligning ourselves with, like, these. These guys with, like, Sweden and Norway, and they really, like, actively choose to do this kind of out of fear of being taken over by Russia. They're like, we're gonna make our identity so separate that, like, you can't touch Us like you, that you would never even think of Finland as being a part of Russia. And the way that they do this is, like, really practical. They, like, excise witchcraft. They're like, you are not allowed to practice witchcraft, which was a huge thing. And they were like, we are going to, like, modernist design. This, like, new Scandinavian design is going to be like a core tenant of who we are. Like, we are going to look modern and Scandinavian. And the government supports new designers such as this brilliant young architect named Alvar Aalto. And he is responsible for so much of the furniture that we know and love today. And he's a pioneer of, like, curved wood, which is crazy. Like, that's such a pivotal point of mid century modernism. But when you think about it, like, beforehand, everything that, like, Le Corbusier was doing, all the other modernism was very like, metal and leather. And he found this way to, like, incorporate wood into it. And Finland has this big, like, lumber culture. So anyway, he was really raised up and promoted. And a very rich heiress asked him to make her a house inland. Inland in Finland, in the middle of the country. And if you're Finnish, you have to have a sauna in your house. And after, it's like, if you give a mouse a cookie, if you have a sauna, what do you need? You need a lake to cool off in after the sauna. And so he builds this woman a wiggly, squiggly pool that looks kind of like a lake. It looks a little bit like a sock, like a cartoon sock. So he builds this house, and then one day in his workshop in Finland, he's visited by this American architect, this American landscape architect named Thomas Church. And he sees this design for this pool and he's like, oh, that's a great idea. And he builds a version of it in Northern California. And it's now a little bit more, like, Americanized and sort of groovyized. It's got this, like, boomerang shape to it, and there's a sculpture in the middle of it. It's meant to be like, this work of art. And it's beautiful. It's like this amazing pool. And it's featured on the COVID of Sunset magazine, which at the time was, like, all up and down the West Coast. Everybody's reading Sunset Magazine. And this is around the time after World War II. A bunch of soldiers had been stationed in the Pacific Theater. And they were like, oh, California's kind of nice. I'm gonna stay here. And there were all these new housing developments, and these were mostly like city kids who'd never had a house or a yard before. And so suddenly, there are all these young families with yards, and they're like, what do I do with this yard? They read Sunset magazine, they see this pool, and they're like, I want that pool. This pool becomes the trend all across Southern California. Everybody builds, like, a curvy pool. And then it's funny because I told the story backwards from the way I told it in 99% invisible. But the way the thing that is most interesting to me is in the 1970s, there's a massive Dr. All those pools get drained, and a bunch of kids who are surfers, who don't want to, who are having trouble finding waves, break into all those pools, and they start skateboarding. Skateboarding used to be, like, a flat sport. Used to just sort of, like, do it back and forth. It was like hula hooping or something. They break into those pools and they start surfing on them. And that's how, like, modern skateboarding was created accidentally by Alvar Alto.
- [51:52]
B
I love that. That was. That is a plot. Wow.
- [51:57]
A
I was like, that's what fashion is.
- [51:59]
B
It's also that you went from geopolitics all the way down to curvy pools and then into the birth of skateboarding. I mean, that's just. That's amazing.
- [52:07]
A
Thanks. But I was like, this is what fashion is. It's idea. It's like this weird copying idea proliferation.
- [52:12]
B
And it was in this sort of the way that all those levels of ideas held hands that you were like, that's me.
- [52:19]
A
Well, I was like, that's fascist. Like, I think there's a way. I think this happens very commonly. Nothing's an accident. It all comes from somewhere.
- [52:30]
B
Amazing. Who has any questions for Avery?
- [52:35]
A
So I want to know your take is grand camo, an endorsement of the American military industrial complex. That is such a good question. And there's a. So many. That's, like, the question. And there's so many different takes on it. You know, the interesting thing is when I talk to soldiers, they would like, well, I would never wear camo. But, like, you go for it. Because it's. They're like. It's my work clothes. I would never. And so the funny thing is, Jad, when you were talking about, like, guys at the gym wearing camo, it's like, well, they're not soldiers. You know, they're not veterans. It's so obvious. And I didn't realize that it was sort of like a civilian privilege to wear camo. I was like, oh, that kind of changes things. I never really thought about it that way. I kind of thought it was a privilege for y', all, and they were like, no, no, no, that's you. Like, we don't. We don't really want to do that. That's. That's all you. So that. That really changed things for me. I will say I do still feel very strangely about wearing, like, the current camo that the military has. Like, I did buy some camo pants at a military base, and, like, sometimes I wear them, and people are like, sick pants, bro. I'm like, ugh, I don't know. Weird. So I do feel weird. So the funny thing is, I do think it also depends on, like, the kind of camo you're wearing, because I don't think there's anything, if you're wearing a fashion camo or a, like, 81 woodland or something that has nothing to do with the current war. That's purely fashion, you know? And if the idea that, like, oh, camo writ large represents war, I mean, yeah, it does, but this is also, like, part of the water we swim in. And it's another thing that made me realize I used to be so vehemently against, like, field jackets, camo, combat boots. I would never touch any of that stuff. And after doing this series, I'm like, this is my history, too. Like, I have a say in this, and not only do I pay taxes, but, like, I have opinions, and I. Like, I am a civilian, but this is also totally my history. And, like, I think you can. You can do it, too. So this is going to be in the last episode that I'm working on, but a lot of soldiers have sort of requested that citizens become a little bit more literate about not, I shouldn't say current events because it's really hard to keep up with everything, but, like, the current state of war. And I think becoming camo literate for me has been a part of it. It's like, oh, not that camo, but other kinds of camos are really great. So I think it's, like, understanding camo differences to me.
- [55:09]
F
I'm curious with this series, and I think Ivy as well. It's a lot of men and men's fashion, and we heard a little bit in that first episode. You're talking about how men, they want. They don't want to think about style. They don't think about fashion. It's about functionality, which I think there's a lot of truth to that. But I was curious for you, like, what has it been like to spend so much time in the heads of these manly men. And what have you kind of learned?
- [55:38]
A
Yeah, it's really interesting because it's funny, I was getting really down on myself and, like, doing the thing that you're not supposed to do, which is like reading comments on Reddit. And a lot of men are, like, really offended or think I hate them, and I don't. I love men. I just think it's really. It's very interesting.
- [55:58]
B
I mean, it's interesting, too. It's a great question, because most people, when you. Most. Most people, when they talk about fashion, talk about women's fashion, because men's fashion seems very, at least to me from the outside, the dynamic range is much narrower. You know, you're not seeing wild, like, experiments in the way that you will with female fashion. Yeah.
- [56:20]
A
But I think that's part of, like, that's my grand experiment, is to specifically interrogate male fashion because we take it so for granted. We're like, well, that's just some plain stuff. It's like, well, what's plain about it? Like, where does it come from? And I think there are three tenets of what we consider American masculine dress, and I think one of them is preppy style. And I did a series about preppy style. The next one was military. And the third one I want to do is western wear and, like, cowboy stuff, which also feels very, like, Back to the Future. Like, the third one, we go to the west, but it feels like all these.
- [56:58]
B
We.
- [56:58]
A
We. We've been taught to think about these things as being, like, neutrals, Basics. Yeah, but they're not neutral. They all mean something. And they usually come from one of those three places, by and large.
- [57:10]
B
Give us a preview of your next series.
- [57:12]
A
Yeah.
- [57:12]
B
Oh, my God.
- [57:13]
A
Yeah.
- [57:13]
B
Yeah.
- [57:14]
A
But that's what I kept thinking of as I was, like, working on the military. I was like, I want to touch a horse. I can't wait. I want to do the western stuff.
- [57:22]
B
Wow. Wow. That's such a. That's such a reveal at the very end here.
- [57:27]
A
Well, I don't know when I'll be able to do it, but that's the. That's the dream. But I knew when I was doing the last season, I was like, the next one's gonna be military.
- [57:34]
B
Okay.
- [57:35]
A
And so I'm like, I'm calling it this next one's. And of course, I'm like, this one will just be like a fun little one. No, it won't. No way. Like, these things all end up having horrendous gruesome histories.
- [57:49]
B
Totally. Oh, yeah. As soon as you go out west, that's. That's a lot of. A lot of blood on our hands there. Yeah.
- [57:56]
A
Well, the thing. Okay, the question I'm really curious about is why all colonial cultures have cowboys, right? Like, Australia has cowboys, Canada has cowboys. We have cowboys. They all sort of wear the same stuff. And it's like, did we export that? Did that, like, naturally sort of like grow from the colonial mindset? Like, wow, like the colonizer plus ranchland equals cowboy. Like, how did we all get to this place? And also the aesthetics are so interesting. Like, the cowboy boot is obviously Mexican. And then. Okay, actually I happen to have an example right here. I'm wearing a shirt that I got in Hungary and if you can see it, it looks kind of cowboyish. A lot of the embroidery and like cowboy looking stuff comes from Eastern Europe. And it's like this amazing blend. Like, how did we. How did this get everywhere?
- [58:52]
B
Oh my God, I can't wait for you to tell me that story.
- [58:54]
A
I gotta figure it out.
- [58:56]
B
Well, Avery, thank you. I mean, just thank you so much for your work and for this incredible series and for all of them and for agreeing to chat tonight.
- [59:08]
A
Thank you for sending me home with this. This is really, really special.
- [59:12]
B
Please give it up for Avery Trufelman and Jed.
- [59:17]
A
There's a portrait painted on the things we love. Special special thanks to Jad Abumrad again. His podcast is called Felikuti Fear. No, man, I am a huge fan. It is such an honor to be in the mutual appreciation club. Thank you so much, Jad. Thanks as well to Scott Newman and Julian Danicola of On Air Presents and to the kind folks at Ludlow House. You made me feel like a member. And if you are wondering about that game that I mentioned where you have to look at the photographs and guess what era they're from. It's a really fun game. I'll have the link on the substack@articlesofinterest.substack.com There's a portrait painted on the things we love. What do you think makes the perfect snack?
- [60:16]
F
Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.
- [60:19]
A
Could you be more specific?
- [60:21]
F
When it's cravinient.
- [60:22]
A
Okay.
- [60:23]
F
Like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at am, pm. Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can.
- [60:28]
A
Grab in just a second at am, pm. I'm seeing a pattern here.
- [60:31]
F
Well, yeah, we're talking about what I.
- [60:33]
A
Crave which is anything from AM pm.
- [60:35]
F
What more could you want?
- [60:36]
B
Stop by AMPM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's cravenience am PM too much Good stuff. Radiotopia.
- [60:48]
A
From PRX.