Podcast Summary: Articles of Interest — "Gear: Epilogue (with Jad Abumrad)"

Host: Avery Trufelman
Guest Interviewer: Jad Abumrad
Date: December 17, 2025

Overview

This special "epilogue" episode of Articles of Interest features a live stage interview between host Avery Trufelman and radio legend Jad Abumrad (Radiolab, Fela Kuti: Fear No Man). Recorded at Ludlow House in New York City, the episode offers a candid, reflective, and humorous conversation exploring Avery's "Gear" series—an investigation into the historic and cultural significance of outdoor performance wear, its military connections, and the deeper meanings embedded in what we wear. The episode is an insightful look behind the series, delving into the blurred lines of fashion, war, masculinity, function, and symbolism.

Key Topics and Discussion Points

1. What Is Fashion? Challenging Definitions

• Jad praises Avery’s unique approach to fashion storytelling, noting how her definition of fashion differs from mainstream understandings.
• Avery frames fashion as "the externalization of your internal state and the individualization of the collective state" (09:33), emphasizing its sociological and historical functions.
• Fashion functions as a "barometer of time made visible"—the best indicator of era in old photographs is often the clothes people wear (09:33–10:40).
• Avery discusses the paradox of wanting to "stand out and fit in simultaneously," referencing the phenomenon in both humans and animals (e.g., orcas wearing salmon as hats, 12:06).

Quote
"Fashion is the externalization of your... it is both the externalization of your internal state and… the individualization of the collective state." – Avery (09:33)

[Key Segment: 05:26–13:07]

2. Gear, The Military, and Civilian Clothing—A Deepening Perspective

• Jad shares that after listening to the series, he realized "the military is literally dressing me," noting the prevalence of innovations like zippers and buttons that came from military needs (14:51–15:58).
• Avery discusses her evolution from being "categorically against" the military to a more nuanced understanding after interviewing veterans, soldiers, and industry insiders.
• Revelations include learning that most outdoor gear companies hide their military contracts, and that funding often flows from civilian products to military ones—not vice versa (17:40).
• She observes: "At the end of the day, these are jackets, not bombs," suggesting the real issues lie elsewhere (20:00).

Quote
"It's more nuanced than I thought... it's actually the civilian clothes supporting the military clothes, not the other way around. Like, it's mostly like we are supporting them." – Avery (18:54)

[Key Segment: 13:13–21:00]

3. The Curious Case of Camouflage

• The story of "multicam" illustrates how military fashion trends spill into civilian, law enforcement, and international domains through happenstance and professional envy.
• The multicam camouflage, designed by Brooklyn artists, was rejected by the military and then adopted by elite units before spreading everywhere.
• The consequences are real: “Right now in Russia and Ukraine, soldiers have to wear armbands to tell who’s on what team because everyone looks the same. It’s so nuts.” (24:49)

Quote
"It was just a trend story—like everybody started copying them because those were the hip, cool, badass guys wearing multicam... it's so confusing." – Avery (25:32–27:24)

[Key Segment: 21:48–31:10]

4. Behind the Reporting: Breaking Through Secrecy

• Jad asks how Avery gained access to secretive world of camouflage designers and military contracters.
• It took persistent networking—“You sort of talk to enough people…”—with help from industry insiders and a vouch from writer Mary Roach (28:27–30:35).

Quote
"It's really hard in a pod because... these were really hard interviews to get... You sort of talk to enough people... You never know who the connection is going to be." – Avery (27:46–30:39)

5. Narrative Choices & Human Element: Ray Christian's Role

• The use of a "drill instructor" voice (Dr. Ray Christian) at the start of episodes is both playful and profound; in episode 4, the character is revealed, shifting focus from the clothes to the soldier (32:09–33:49).
• This move highlights how clothes externalize deep internal histories, pain, and identity.

Quote
"It almost completes the circuit... between clothes and behavior, clothes and soul." – Jad (33:10–33:49)

6. Avery's Origins: Fashion, Identity, Journalism

• Avery discusses her teenage years dressing "really weird," realizing through public feedback (in college) how much meaning and message clothing sends—often unintentionally (39:56–40:43).
• Coming from a radio family, she imagined herself as a behind-the-scenes "station person" rather than a journalist. Attending a Vivienne Westwood exhibit shifted her understanding of fashion as a force for new cultural languages and meanings (41:38–43:02).

Quote
"I think it was this instruction in the sort of social nature of clothing. I think I was so against fitting in that I was standing out too much, and I didn't realize the signals it was sending." – Avery (39:47)

7. Fashion as Idea Proliferation: The Curvy Pool Anecdote

• Avery recounts her favorite reporting moment—tracing the origins of "bean-shaped" pools from Finland's assertion of Nordic identity, to American landscape design, to California suburbia, to the origins of modern skateboarding (47:41–51:58).
• This story exemplifies her approach: tracing how aesthetics, politics, and technology ripple through culture.

Quote
"That's what fashion is. It's idea—it's like this weird copying idea proliferation." – Avery (51:57)

8. Q&A Highlights

• Is wearing camo an endorsement of the military? Avery: Soldiers see it as civilian privilege; she feels ambiguous wearing current military-issue camo, but distinguishes between types and contexts (54:49–55:08).
• Male Fashion, Masculinity, and Future Series: Avery discusses how exploring masculine "basics" (military, preppy, and western wear) reveals hidden histories and influences. Upcoming season: western/cowboy clothing’s global spread and roots in multicultural exchange (55:37–58:51).

Quote
"We've been taught to think about these things as being, like, neutrals, basics. Yeah, but they're not neutral. They all mean something." – Avery (56:58)

Notable Quotes

• On Fashion's Social Power:
  "Fashion is this very delicate dance of wanting to look individual, yet wanting to look like everybody else... it's the way that we know maybe who will have something in common with us." – Avery (11:14–12:06)

• On the Camo Trend:
  "It's really dangerous not to be able to know who's on what side or who's with what government agency. They all do different things... so the funny thing is, it's ultimately a trend story, but it has really, really, really dire consequences." – Avery (24:49–26:48)

• On Civilian vs. Military Dress:
  "I used to be so vehemently against, like, field jackets, camo, combat boots... after doing this series, I'm like, this is my history, too. Like, I have a say in this." – Avery (54:49)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 05:26–13:07 — What is fashion? History, semiotics, and collective identity
• 13:13–21:00 — Gear series: Tackling the military-industrial-fashion complex
• 21:48–31:10 — The story behind camouflage and its cultural consequences
• 32:09–34:49 — Shifting the narrative: Centering the person behind the gear
• 39:56–43:02 — Avery's personal journey: identity, messaging, discovering fashion journalism
• 47:41–51:58 — "Curvy Pools": Fashion as the transmission of ideas and trends
• 55:37–58:51 — Masculinity, basics, and the future "western" series

Memorable Moments

• Avery's glee when historians echo her impulse to "go back in time": “Hell, yeah, here we go.” (06:28)
• Detailed investigation reveals how even “plain” men’s fashion (like khaki, preppy, military, cowboy styles) is historically loaded and evolving.
• Jad and Avery break the fourth wall, reflecting on podcasting as both journalism and art.
• Avery signals her next big question: Why do all colonial cultures have cowboys, and how did those aesthetics spread and hybridize? (57:55–58:51)

Tone and Language

The episode is thoughtful, witty, and deeply curious. Both hosts are candid, self-aware, and willing to challenge their own assumptions. Avery’s voice is self-deprecating, playful, and meticulous; Jad is admiring, philosophical, and probing—together, their dynamic is lively and intellectually invigorating.

Conclusion

This "epilogue" delivers both a behind-the-scenes look at the making of "Gear" and a profound meditation on how clothes, history, politics, and memory are tangled together. For those interested in material culture, sociology, or simply understanding why we all suddenly dress like we’re perpetually two miles from a mountaintop, this episode is essential listening.

For further reading and resources (like the photo era guessing game), visit articlesofinterest.substack.com.