Stylists (With Decoder Ring)

Summary

Articles of Interest – Episode: Stylists (With Decoder Ring) Host: Avery Trufelman
Featuring: Decoder Ring Podcast by Willa Paskin
Release Date: May 6, 2024

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Introduction: The Spotlight on Stylists

Avery Trufelman opens the episode by setting the scene at the Metropolitan Museum of Art during the Met Gala. She highlights the increasing recognition of stylists in the fashion world, noting that celebrities now openly credit their stylists for their iconic looks. Avery poses the central question: How did stylists evolve from behind-the-scenes figures to celebrated fashion influencers? To explore this, she collaborates with Willa Paskin from Slate’s Decoder Ring podcast.

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Historical Background: From Paris Couture to Hollywood Style

[00:00 – 10:08]

Willa Paskin delves into the origins of the stylist profession, tracing it back to early Hollywood. Initially, American cinema heavily relied on Parisian couture for its glamorous on-screen wardrobes. Designers like Coco Chanel and Christian Dior dominated, providing exclusive, handcrafted garments that were both expensive and unique. As Terry Agins, founder of the fashion beat at The Wall Street Journal, explains:

"Cinema was the main way that Americans got to experience fashion. You went to see fancy furs and incredible wardrobes."
— Terry Agins [03:37]

However, by 1929, a seismic shift occurred in Parisian fashion. The introduction of lower hemlines and new silhouettes left Hollywood studios grappling with outdated wardrobe footage. In response, Hollywood severed its ties with Paris, choosing to establish its own fashion identity. This led to the birth of Hollywood style, characterized by timeless, elegant designs crafted by in-house costume departments. Terry Agins further elaborates:

"Hollywood is totally separate from French fashion to make sure that their movies don't fall out of style."
— Terry Agins [05:53]

Notable costume designers like Edith Head emerged, becoming legends in their own right by tailoring outfits to enhance each actor's persona, such as Joan Crawford's signature shoulder pads that underscored her tough image.

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The Collapse of the Studio System and Its Aftermath

[12:42 – 17:45]

The studio system, which tightly controlled every aspect of a star's image, began to falter in the late 1960s due to a series of lawsuits. This dissolution led to actors and creative personnel becoming freelancers, forcing celebrities to take charge of their own wardrobes for the first time in Hollywood history. Dana Thomas, author of How Luxury Lost Its Luster, explains:

"By the late 60s, they no longer have actors on contract, they no longer have directors on contract. Everyone's sort of becoming freelance."
— Dana Thomas [13:37]

This newfound freedom led to numerous fashion missteps on red carpets. Iconic moments include Demi Moore wearing bike shorts to the Oscars:

"Demi Moore wore bike shorts to the Oscars, and everybody was laughing like crazy."
— Willa Paskin [16:05]

Such incidents highlighted celebrities' lack of innate style, underscoring the need for professional stylists to navigate the complex world of fashion.

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The Rise of Stylists and Giorgio Armani’s Breakthrough

[17:52 – 23:19]

The 1980s marked a turning point with the emergence of legendary stylist Giorgio Armani, who revolutionized the relationship between fashion designers and celebrities. Armani, based in Milan and separate from traditional French fashion houses, introduced a relaxed yet elegant aesthetic that resonated with Hollywood stars. Willa Paskin recounts:

"Armani was this young upstart... his suits were very loose, made of linen, breathable, in earth tones."
— Willa Paskin [17:53]

Armani's collaboration with actors like Richard Gere in Pretty Woman and Robert De Niro in The Untouchables skyrocketed his brand’s popularity:

"Women's Wear Daily did this headline. They called the Oscars the Armani awards."
— Terry Agins [21:53]

This strategic alliance between Armani and Hollywood demonstrated the powerful synergy between designers and celebrity stylists, paving the way for stylists to become indispensable in crafting a star's public image.

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The Modern Stylist’s Role: Balancing Creativity and Logistics

[30:11 – 35:59]

Transitioning to the contemporary landscape, Willa Paskin interviews stylist Gene Yang and Melissa Rivers to uncover the intricacies of the profession. Melissa Rivers emphasizes the demanding nature of the job:

"Three quarters of the job is schlepping."
— Melissa Rivers [30:34]

Stylists today manage everything from selecting appropriate outfits for varying climates to ensuring every accessory is perfect. Melissa Rivers describes the meticulous process:

"You have to have socks, shoes, bras, cufflinks... It's literally a checkoff list for my assistants."
— Melissa Rivers [32:58]

The role extends beyond mere selection; it involves comprehensive planning, coordination, and constant adaptation to meet the fast-paced demands of celebrity lifestyles.

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The Impact of Stylists on Fashion and Culture

[36:12 – 38:16]

Stylists have significantly influenced both celebrity fashion and everyday trends. Melissa Rivers argues that stylists democratize fashion, allowing regular people to experiment with styles inspired by celebrities:

"Look at especially menswear, to see an alpha male looking guy wearing a pink suit gives any guy permission to wear a colorful suit."
— Melissa Rivers [36:44]

However, Dana Thomas and Melissa Rivers also acknowledge potential downsides, such as the homogenization of celebrity fashion:

"Everybody looks the same now... You miss these celebrities dressing themselves because that's when you got the mistakes."
— Kelsey Grammer [34:48]

Despite critiques, Willa Paskin defends the profession, highlighting how stylists elevate conversations around fashion by introducing diverse designers and fostering a deeper appreciation for fashion history.

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Conclusion: Stylists as Fashion Architects

Avery Trufelman wraps up the episode by reflecting on the vital role stylists play in shaping both celebrity images and broader fashion trends. The collaboration between Articles of Interest and Decoder Ring underscores the intricate dance between fashion designers, stylists, and celebrities, illustrating how this relationship continues to evolve and influence culture at large.

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Notable Quotes:

• Terry Agins [03:37]: "Cinema was the main way that Americans got to experience fashion."

• Terry Agins [05:53]: "Hollywood is totally separate from French fashion to make sure that their movies don't fall out of style."

• Dana Thomas [13:37]: "By the late 60s, they no longer have actors on contract, they no longer have directors on contract. Everyone's sort of becoming freelance."

• Willa Paskin [16:05]: "Demi Moore wore bike shorts to the Oscars, and everybody was laughing like crazy."

• Terry Agins [21:53]: "Women's Wear Daily did this headline. They called the Oscars the Armani awards."

• Melissa Rivers [30:34]: "Three quarters of the job is schlepping."

• Melissa Rivers [36:44]: "Look at especially menswear, to see an alpha male looking guy wearing a pink suit gives any guy permission to wear a colorful suit."

---

This episode of Articles of Interest offers a comprehensive exploration of the stylist profession's evolution, highlighting its profound impact on both celebrity culture and the broader fashion landscape.

Transcript

[Avery Trufelman]

It's 9:30 in the morning. I am at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. And tonight at this very spot, this museum will be full of celebrities attending the Met Gala. I mean, already at this early hour, the museum is full of tents and cops and bystanders already lining the barricades, staking out a good spot so they can see celebrities later. And the Internet tonight will be plastered with pictures of. Of very glamorous people wearing all manner of outrageous outfits. But the thing that's really interesting to me is that people will not only be commenting on designers and on celebrities, they'll also be talking about stylists. There's this widespread acknowledgement that, like, oh, celebrities don't always dress themselves. And you'd think this would be like a dirty secret, but, you know, Robert Downey Jr. Even thanked his stylist in his Oscar speech.

[Terry Agins]

I'm gonna thank my stylist in case no one else does.

[Willa Paskin]

Thanks, Erica. Thank you very much.

[Avery Trufelman]

And many stylists have become celebrities in their own right. They give interviews, they offer styling tips. Many of them are, like, designing diffusion lines. And so I was wondering, what was up with this? Like, where did all these celebrity stylists come from? How did this become a job? And how did this become so readily acceptable? So I brought this question to one of my favorite podcasts called Decoder Ring, and it's made by Slate and host Willa Paskin. And I dove in to try to figure out the answer.

[Willa Paskin]

So I thought I'd share it today.

[Avery Trufelman]

In honor of the Met Gala. Okay, I'm going to go into the press preview now.

[Dana Thomas]

This is Decoder Ring. I'm Willa Paskin. Like a manager or an agent or a publicist, a stylist has become a kind of must have accessory for well dressed a list celebrities. It's just expected they'll have hired someone to select the clothes they'll wear at all of their public appearances. But this was not always the case. In today's episode, Avery Trufelman will guide us through the collapse of a certain kind of Hollywood glamour into the rise of a growing, financially rewarding relationship between fashion designers and celebrity culture. And then onto the explosion, explosion in red carpet events patrolled by fashion police that all helped create this new occupation. So today on Decoder Ring, how did stylist become a job? So, Avery, where does the story of the stylist begin?

[Willa Paskin]

So the story of the stylist starts before the stylist was really like a twinkle in anyone's eye. We're talking about, like, the Turn of the last century through the 1920s, high fashion meant Paris. Like fancy designer clothes all just came from Paris. These handmade, hand sewn garments that most Americans would probably never be able to see in person. I mean, these were gowns by Coco Chanel and Christian Dior, and they were absurdly expensive. They were one of a kind. And so in the early days of Hollywood, when the movies were silent, everybody on screen would be wearing these exciting, exotic, elite clothes.

[Terry Agins]

And this is why everyone went to the movies.

[Willa Paskin]

I talked to this extremely iconic fashion reporter, Terry Agans. She founded the fashion beat at the Wall Street Journal. She's a hero of mine. And she told me that cinema was the main way that Americans got to experience fashion.

[Terry Agins]

You, you went to see fancy furs and, you know, incredible wardrobes, and that's when you get to see all the new, different styles. Even though they didn't necessarily know who the designers were, they knew that the clothes came from Paris.

[Willa Paskin]

And it was a selling point. Like, check it out, we have the latest fashions from France. This was sort of the way it was that Hollywood was more or less interwoven with the French fashion system. Until 1929, what had happened in Paris.

[Terry Agins]

Was they had come out with a new look of clothes. The hemlines were lower, I mean, and it was a complete different silhouette.

[Willa Paskin]

All the French fashion designers were shifting away from this, like, carefree, flapper style. And it left the studios, who had already shot footage for movies with these, like, short flapper dresses in the lurch. You know, their movies are slated to come out. And suddenly they looked outdated, like they weren't offering the latest in French fashion anymore.

[Terry Agins]

And it was like, oh, man. Moviegoers were paying 25 cents to be entertained with the latest, and they were not seeing the latest. They were seeing clothes that were dated. Well, the movie studio was like, oh my God, what are we going to do? And so they just figured out, okay, we are no longer using Paris couture in the movies. We are now going to establish Hollywood and not Paris as the fashion capital of the world.

[Willa Paskin]

So Hollywood severs its ties with Paris. Parisian couture was more or less banned. You know, they were like, we, we do not abide by this system anymore. We will not follow the seasons, we will not follow the trends. Cause it's not a good investment. You know, you never know. You never know when these designers get played again. Yeah, exactly. We're not gonna get played again. And so they all pretty much turn to their in house costumers who are really talented and they're like, okay, now you make the clothes. And so in the Beginning of the 30s, the costume departments in the studio start creating this very like, safe, timeless style for their actors. And it totally works. And you can close your eyes and you can imagine it. It's like slinky satin gowns and elegant three piece suits. And we now call this Hollywood style.

[Dana Thomas]

Yeah, like even now on red carpets they'll be like, she looks so old Hollywood. Usually when someone is wearing exactly what you just described, sort of like close fitting, some art deco detailing. And that is coming from the 1930s when the movies are actually also starting to talk.

[Willa Paskin]

Exactly. So the, the movies are talking, they're wearing this like pretty consistent style. And now we are solidly in the era of the studio system. Vast and imaginative plants the studios create for millions and another world.

[Jean Yang]

A world of incomparable magic and make believe.

[Dana Thomas]

So each studio is basically like a self contained factory and it contains all the parts it needs to make the movies. So you have set designers, you have directors, you have makeup artists, and you have costume designers all working continuously to churn out movies on behalf of the different studios. And so actors are actually on contract. It's like a whole system.

[Willa Paskin]

Yeah, exactly. And so this means that like, because the actors are there in house and the costumers are there in house, the costumers can craft very consistent looks for actors across all their movies.

[Terry Agins]

The one thing about these costume designers in the studios, these people were really good at what they did. These clothes were, they were engineered for each particular actress. And if the actors had like a flat fanny or, or if she didn't have boobs, you know, they would pad things. So these designers were really, really clever and deft and just understood how to make an actress look good.

[Willa Paskin]

So take Joan Crawford, for example. Her whole Persona in all of her films was that she was really tough. Get out.

[Jean Yang]

Get your things out of here before I throw them into the street and you with them.

[Terry Agins]

Get out before I kill you.

[Willa Paskin]

Part of that was you always saw her wearing these huge shoulder pads and, and that look was designed for her by the costume designer at mgm. His name was Gilbert Adrienne.

[Terry Agins]

When Adrienne put her in those strong shoulder pads and that really strong look that really did resonate with a lot of women because they're like, wow, you know, Joan Crawford, you know, she's really a badass.

[Willa Paskin]

It makes sense that the costume designers would be designing costumes for movies. That's their job. But the thing that was so interesting about this moment is they're Also designing clothes for the celebrities to wear, not on screen.

[Dana Thomas]

I mean, this was a time, sort of famously, when the studios were in the business of crafting every single part of any celebrity's life.

[Avery Trufelman]

Yes.

[Willa Paskin]

They'd be like, your name will be Rita Hayworth and we will make you, like, sexy, but in an approachable way. And, you know, they sort of like.

[Dana Thomas]

Create these, their whole Persona. They give you a romantic partner, they give you a whole story.

[Willa Paskin]

Exactly. And so part of that is, then we'll dress you. Exactly. They were so invested in food, fully crafting their entire Persona, that they clothed them for almost everything they needed. Going out to dinner at premieres, just living their lives, even their wedding dresses.

[Jean Yang]

A wedding of two Hollywood film stars, Dick Powell and Joan Blondell.

[Willa Paskin]

And what a happy day for the couple. And so some of the house costumers got like, as famous, arguably as some of these French designers. For example, like, Edith Head is a costumer at Paramount and she became really.

[Avery Trufelman]

Famous in her own right.

[Dana Thomas]

And she's so famous, she's in the Incredibles.

[Willa Paskin]

This is a hobo suit, darling.

[Melissa Rivers]

You can't be seen in this.

[Willa Paskin]

I won't allow it.

[Dana Thomas]

I mean, Edna mode is like, supposed to be Edith Head.

[Willa Paskin]

Exactly. So Hollywood is totally separate from French fashion to make sure that their movies don't fall out of style. But the feeling is also mutual. Like French fashion does not want to be in the movies. There was a moment when Coco Chanel came to Hollywood in the 30s and she was like, she couldn't hack it. She left. Dior would dress like a few sort of high end celebrities like Marlena Dietrich, but by and large, like his fancy upper crust French clients did not want him dressing movie actors. I mean, this was considered.

[Dana Thomas]

Movies are like very popular. Yes, yes. And that is not high end couture fashion.

[Willa Paskin]

So French fashion does not like Hollywood and Hollywood does not like French fashion and Hollywood.

[Dana Thomas]

Hollywood is instead doing this thing called Hollywood style, which is being made by costume designers. And they are doing it everywhere. On screen, off screen.

[Willa Paskin]

Yeah. And they keep doing that until everything falls apart.

[Jodi Avergan]

We're living through a pretty rocky present. Maybe the past can help. Check out Radiotopia's this Day, hosted by Jodi Avergan with historians Nicole Hemmer and Kelly Carter Jackson. Three times a week, they take you into one story from that day in US history, from Eisenhower's weird vendetta against squirrels to the time we accidentally dropped a nuclear bomb on North Carolina, to the women who fought against the right to vote. It's smart, surprising, and actually fun. This is a big moment for history. Next year is America's 250th birthday and well, look around. There's lots of history being made. Subscribe to this day for your historical perspective wherever you get your podcasts as well as YouTube and Instagram.

[Avery Trufelman]

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[Willa Paskin]

Articles of Interest is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. To try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Okay, so under the studio system, stars were more or less cared for, cared for, controlled, however you want to put it in, like every single way. They never had to worry about what they would wear. And then the studio system fell apart, right?

[Dana Thomas]

Initially it's a series of lawsuits, but over a period of like 10 to 15 years, this whole factory system of like assembly lining your movies, it's, it's not allowed anymore. And so sort of by the late 60s, they no longer have actors on contract, they no longer have directors on contract. Everyone's sort of becoming freelance, including of course, the costume designers.

[Willa Paskin]

Right. And because everyone is a freelancer now, the stars are kind of on their own, and they have to begin to fend for themselves kind of for the first time in Hollywood history. But which means that the stars have to go shopping.

[Jean Yang]

And since they'd never had to shop, they weren't very good at it, frankly.

[Willa Paskin]

This is Dana Thomas, author of many excellent fashion books, including How Luxury Lost Its Luster. And I spoke with her about this very particular moment when suddenly movie stars have to try to figure out what to wear.

[Jean Yang]

Because they had been dressed by the studios for so long, they had a certain style that had been developed for them, but that didn't necessarily mean that they had innate style. And suddenly you saw, like, wow, Barbra Streisand isn't looking as fabulous as she did in the early 60s. You know, she was just kind of showing up in pantsuits.

[Willa Paskin]

Generally in the 60s and 70s, it's a more casual period. People are dressed. And even on screen, the stories are not about, like, the glamorous lives of the rich and famous. The stories are more about normal people who are dressed normally. You talking to me? La de da la de da la la. And stars are, like. They're even buying outfits from, like, normal department stores. Like, you could see a celebrity at Saks getting something that they might wear to the Oscars.

[Jean Yang]

While it was lovely to see people looking like themselves rather than what the Hollywood machine had crafted, it should be their public image, it was also sometimes so casual that you were like, could we make a little bit more of an effort? This is supposed to be a nice event.

[Willa Paskin]

By the 1980s, Hollywood was starting to agree with Dana. Casual was going out of style.

[Dana Thomas]

We're talking Coke, Gordon Gekko money, Wall Street, Reagan. Like, it's like glamour's back, baby. Like, big shoulders gowns. Like, a lot of money. Like, money is back. You want to be ripping in money.

[Willa Paskin]

But the stars are still on their own. And basically on their own, they started to make some unfortunate decisions.

[Jean Yang]

And that's when we had real fashion horrors on the red carpet Tonight.

[Dana Thomas]

It's the 61st annual Academy Awards.

[Terry Agins]

I remember watching Oscars were hilarious.

[Willa Paskin]

That's Terry Agans again.

[Terry Agins]

Because you'd see all these celebrities and just they would come up with anything.

[Willa Paskin]

Ladies and gentlemen, Demi Moore and Bruce Willis.

[Terry Agins]

Demi Moore. Demi Moore wore bike shorts to the Oscars, and everybody was laughing like crazy. Like, how could she wear something like that? You saw all kind of weird getups.

[Willa Paskin]

Ms. Kim Basinger. Kim Basinger wore this Dress that she designed herself that's like half long sleeve, half short sleeve.

[Dana Thomas]

You're like, is that avant garde or just terrible? Like, do you know what's happening?

[Willa Paskin]

Jodie Foster in 1989 when she won an Oscar for the Accused.

[Dana Thomas]

This is such a big deal.

[Willa Paskin]

And my life is so simple. There are. She's wearing this like powder blue dress with a big bow in the back. I mean, she looks like a baby doll. It's. It's not very sophisticated.

[Jean Yang]

I mean, it was like a bad promotion. Bridesmaid's dress. It just. You just sort of. I remember watching those Oscars and you just sort of were like, what is she wearing?

[Terry Agins]

Thank you so much.

[Willa Paskin]

Jodie Foster was very insulted by all of the hate that her cream puff blue prom dress got. Cause she picked it out herself in Milan and she thought it was really beautiful. And I think it was this very vulnerable thing for stars to like, show their true tastes and to get completely raked over the coals.

[Terry Agins]

I think that most of us equate celebrities with having a lot of style, but they're just ordinary people like the rest of us. And a lot of them may look good because they were wardrobed a certain way for a movie, but they don't really have any innate style. So they needed somebody to help them.

[Willa Paskin]

Out, and someone would come to help them out. This new upcoming designer named Giorgio Armani.

[Dana Thomas]

Heard of him?

[Willa Paskin]

Yes. Well, okay, so now we think of Giorgio Armani as like this, you know, up there with Dior and Chanel, as this kind of like classic brand. But at the time, he was really separate. So Armani was this young upstart. He was not based in France, he was based out of Milan. And his style was also totally different. When you think about, you know, the 80s had all these like big structured power suits. He was making these suits that were very loose. They were made of linen. They were. They were breathable. They were in earth tones. They weren't like black and shiny.

[Terry Agins]

They have a glamour, they have an elan. And everybody looked good in his clothes.

[Willa Paskin]

But Armani was really small. You could only buy his clothes at Barney's in New York. But this small group of people in Hollywood were like catching on to this niche little known designer. And they were mostly people who were not on camera. There were a lot of powerful agents and directors. And one of these fans was John Travolta's manager, this guy Bob Lamond.

[Jean Yang]

And Travolta was hired by director Paul Schrader to play in this new movie called America gigolo. And LeMond said, you know, you should get that character to wear these suits, these Giorgio Armani suits. If he's supposed to be a gigolo and he's supposed to look great and hot and sexy and modern and fabulous, he should be wearing our Armani suits. And then Travolta met with Armani. He went to Milani, did fittings, all this. And then he dropped out of the movie to go make Urban Cowboy. And Schrader hired this unknown actor named Richard Gere. And Richard then put on the Armani suits and looked like a million bucks.

[Willa Paskin]

Often in these big hotels, you run into women from foreign countries who may.

[Terry Agins]

Need a translator or a guide, and they hire you.

[Jean Yang]

Yes.

[Willa Paskin]

Armani sees sales skyrocket when this movie comes out. And so they were like, okay, this Hollywood thing, it's doing well for us. And so then they went on to clothe the cast of the Untouchables. Again, sales go up. He's just seeing this rocket, like, connection between his clothes and the movies.

[Jean Yang]

This was the first time anybody had sort of sewed the two together and realized that this was a marketing platform.

[Willa Paskin]

So Armani has discovered the power of celebrity in a way that nobody else really had yet. Like, Chanel and Dior were still refusing to dress celebrities. The one notable example was that, like, Audrey Hepburn was dressed by Givenchy. But that's, like, the exception that proves the rule. This was not something that established designers did. Except Armani decides to, like, make this his whole thing. He decides to go all in. He's like, all right. Hollywood will be the way to establish my brand.

[Jean Yang]

So he hired this fabulous woman named Wanda McDaniel, who had been a journalist working at the Herald examiner covering celebrities. Giorgio Armani hired her and said, I'm giving you one thing to do, and that is to dress these celebrities who really need help and who could look so much better.

[Willa Paskin]

And so who does she call but Jodie Foster and is like, hey, I know you got a lot of shit for this.

[Dana Thomas]

For the tutu dress.

[Willa Paskin]

For the tutu dress. Let me take care of it.

[Avery Trufelman]

Let Armani dress you.

[Willa Paskin]

Come by, we'll hook you up.

[Jean Yang]

And she said, oh, God, please take this burden off my shoulders. Yes. For the rest of my life, please just help, help, help.

[Willa Paskin]

Wanda McDaniel starts calling everybody, like, do you want us to take care of you? Come into our warm embrace? Like, we got you.

[Jean Yang]

So the next year, Giorgio Armani dressed about four or five of the top actresses. And when they walked on the red carpet in these long, pure, spare Columns in very solid colors that were just the right color for each woman. With some sparkle, but not too much sparkle. Their hair, beautiful, but not overly formal. They looked just beautiful. And suddenly everyone was gaga. And that was the moment.

[Terry Agins]

Women's Wear Daily did this headline. And they called the Oscars the Armani awards. Because in 91, every, every celebrity who was worth something was wearing Armani. Men and women, De Niro, you know, Schwarzenegger, Glenn Close, the whole gang.

[Willa Paskin]

And so Armani just starts getting a lot of attention, that he's crafting these celebrities to look so elegant and stately. And one by one, celebrities are starting to ask to be styled by Armani. They start to shoot at the Armani store and it was directly again, impacting sales.

[Terry Agins]

And then a light bulb went on. Every designer said, we're not going to let Armani, like, have this to himself. So they all decided that they needed to get into the game.

[Willa Paskin]

And so all these designers start inviting celebrities into their VIP rooms, inviting them to their salons, inviting them into their boutiques for a glass of champagne. And increasingly, celebrities are going because they need more and more clothes.

[Terry Agins]

We're at the beginning of this period where you're starting to have this whole explosion of media. MTV, InStyle magazine. You saw celebrities in full length shots. You saw them on the town, you saw them behind the velvet rope at movie premieres, you saw them inside their fabulous homes. And of course, at the award shows.

[Joan Rivers]

There is no better way to bring in the new year than with a huge glamorous awards show like the 54th annual Golden Globe. And hello, everybody. I am Joan Rivers and we are live. Okay, Melissa, who have you got there now, Mom?

[Kelsey Grammer]

I am here with Kelsey Grammer, one of my favorites.

[Willa Paskin]

By the late 90s, the red carpet is being televised. It's become as big as the awards.

[Kelsey Grammer]

Themselves because we changed it. We turned walking into a building into an event.

[Willa Paskin]

So we actually got to talk to Melissa Rivers, as in Joan Rivers daughter. She and her mom were both red carpet hosts. They were there talking to celebrities about what designers they were wearing.

[Joan Rivers]

You are so beautiful. Who are you wearing?

[Kelsey Grammer]

Armani, who are you wearing?

[Willa Paskin]

I'm wearing Alberto Ferretti.

[Dana Thomas]

Who are you wearing?

[Willa Paskin]

Paul Smith.

[Joan Rivers]

Who are you wearing? And who are you wearing?

[Kelsey Grammer]

And by the way, and who are you wearing? Was asked out of desperation. We were live. And my mom, she didn't know what to ask somebody. She was like, fuck, what am I going to say? And we're live. And I run out of anything to talk to this person about and they were in a beautiful dress. So she said, instead of what are you wearing? She said, who are you wearing? And that's how that started.

[Willa Paskin]

So now we are solidly in the who are you wearing? Era. And celebrities and designers are fully interwoven. Every outfit is being scrutinized. Everyone knows who, who's wearing what, who designed what, and if it didn't look good, Joan and Melissa would be there to call you out on it.

[Joan Rivers]

They would let you.

[Kelsey Grammer]

They would let you know Cameron Diaz. And she was in Dior by John Galliano.

[Joan Rivers]

It looks like she was dressed by Martha Stewart's towel department. I think this is more effective than an iud. I think this dress is fashion birth control. This red dress looks like a blood clot. Good to wear on, like, heavy flow.

[Willa Paskin]

Days, you know, Jessica Alba, Valentina, Latino haute couture.

[Joan Rivers]

She looks like an Atlantic City hooker who got a sewing machine for one of her johns and no lessons. I mean, am I wrong?

[Kelsey Grammer]

People could say, how could you say that? And it's so mean. And my mother used to always say, we're not saying anything different than what everyone's saying next to each other on the couch. Anyone who denies that they judge what the people are wearing is a big liar.

[Dana Thomas]

Okay, so, like, we have a lot, a lot of events, and we have, like, a lot of people like Joan and Melissa who are out there ready to shark bite you for every single thing that you wear.

[Willa Paskin]

Yeah. The fashion police are patrolling, and if you're an actor, this really matters. You don't want to be the butt of a joke. But now it's not so simple to just sign on to be in the warm embrace of Armani. Now a bunch of other designers have, like, caught on to what Armani is doing, and everybody's imitating him. Other people are reaching out to celebrities and they're like, oh, let us dress you. Let us dress you. Let us dress you. And so now there are, like, so many more choices to be made.

[Jean Yang]

The business got so huge, and there's so many brands and so many options and so many collections that it became a full time job to keep up with. I mean, these women are working women. They don't have time to go out and go to the shows and see everything and comb through all the lookbooks and make sure it's the right size. If it's not right size, get the tailor there, get it fixed. D da da da. It's an. It's a full time job. So they hire the person to do it because it's a full time job.

[Willa Paskin]

Okay, Willa, I know it sounds like this is the end and we're like, tada. So the stylist was born.

[Dana Thomas]

Roll credits.

[Willa Paskin]

Yeah, exactly. But. But it will take a little bit longer for the stylist to become the glamorous profession we think of. All right, so we are now in the era of the stylist. Kind of low key behind the scenes, celebrities have started asking other people to shop for them and dress them.

[Dana Thomas]

And like, where are these people coming from?

[Willa Paskin]

A lot of them are actually coming from magazines because for photo shoots you need someone to like pull all the clothes from all the designer showrooms and put them on the celebrity. And that's honestly how a lot of celebrities and stylists met. You know, they'd like see, style someone for a photo shoot and then the celebrity would turn to them and be like, hey, I like this look you've made. Can you do this for me all the time?

[Melissa Rivers]

Well, look, this is the thing. Any celebrity who's somebody of note, for them to walk. I mean, going to the restaurant with a celebrity is a two to three hour endeavor because they're going to be stopped 10 times for a selfie.

[Willa Paskin]

This is my friend Jean Yang. She has worked as a stylist for.

[Melissa Rivers]

A long time to try on and get clothing. It's just not an easy thing for them to do. Because you go into a store, you are photographed, you are being tracked. And because you now have to do press tours in 10 cities, it is a outrageous amount of looks. It's daunting.

[Willa Paskin]

Gene started in magazines and she's been in the business since. She styled Keanu Reeves for a press shoot in the 1990s and then developed a very impressive roster, including, as she says, five Batmen.

[Melissa Rivers]

George Clooney, Michael Keaton, Ben Affleck, three Spider Men, Tom Holland, Tobey Maguire and Andrew garfield. Robert Downey Jr. Yeah, a lot of other super people.

[Willa Paskin]

And it's amazing she can just openly say that she styles these people. Because at first this was like a dirty secret. Like no star was supposed to admit that someone dresses them.

[Dana Thomas]

It was like, supposed to be like an innate skill they had. Like, they were glamorous, they're fashionable, they don't need help.

[Willa Paskin]

These are stylish people. Exactly. But then some stylists started to emerge out of the shadows and take pride in it. The most notable example of this was Rachel Zoe. She had this very distinct look. And I'll tell you some of her clients and you'll summon the look immediately. It was like Lindsay Lohan, Nicole Richie, Paris Hilton, like, every boho chic it girl of the early aughts. And Rachel Zoe became a celebrity to the point where she even got her own TV show.

[Kelsey Grammer]

I'm Rachel Zo and I'm a stylist. I find the dresses, the jewelry, then I put it all together and create the ultimate red carpet moment.

[Dana Thomas]

And this, like, brings us back to where we started.

[Willa Paskin]

Yes, exactly. The stylist o celebrity.

[Dana Thomas]

His job is to carefully craft the visual image of his clients, and his career is exploding as a result.

[Willa Paskin]

So there's the glamour of being a celebrity stylist, but then there's also the job itself, and I was curious about what that actually is, so I asked Gene Yang.

[Melissa Rivers]

There's so many things involved in the practicalities of dealing with this job that people have no concept of. It's a business. If you think it's just about style, you are sorely mistaken.

[Willa Paskin]

Like, what are the actual. What do you think you spend most of the time doing?

[Melissa Rivers]

I'd say three quarters of the job is schlepping. It is. It's schlepping.

[Willa Paskin]

So just like, starting from the beginning, let's say celebrity reaches out to you, says, like, hey, Gene, I'd really like to work with you. What happens then?

[Melissa Rivers]

So typically, it's actually a publicist who will reach out to you.

[Willa Paskin]

Okay.

[Melissa Rivers]

And will say, look, this person has this going on. I would go online, and I would research everything that that person had ever worn, and I would see what worked, what didn't work. Most of the people I work with are very busy. They only want me to bring the things that I think would be right for them.

[Willa Paskin]

And Jean told me that going to showrooms and pulling options that would be right for them is really not as easy as it sounds.

[Melissa Rivers]

People just think we go into these showrooms and have clothing and we can get anything. It's like, no, what you typically do is you have to have the showroom say, okay, it's for so and so sure, no problem. Of the five things I pulled, they'll say, ooh, we're so sorry. We only want this for red carpet. Oh, this is only for award show. And then you maybe only get two of those items. Oh, Sometimes you beg and say, oh, please. I promise you this will be a big moment. Like, here, please, if it would please the court.

[Dana Thomas]

And then there's like, an additional step because her clients, actually, they have to like it themselves.

[Willa Paskin]

Yeah, I asked about that. Well, I wonder how you kind of get to that point of discovering what.

[Melissa Rivers]

They want, it is done in a very baby step manner. Maybe a guy has always been wearing a pair of trainers and, you know, track pants and a T shirt, and they want to up their look. Well, you can't immediately jump into a gorgeous, you know, wraparound zhoujian peach suit. It is really talking and finding out what they want and then trying it on and then looking at the eyes, looking at their, you know, the corners of their mouths, are they feeling comfortable? But when I look at the client, as a stylist, it's your job to see what looks good and to feel if they're going to feel comfortable in front of 100 cameras and they're not.

[Dana Thomas]

Just in front of cameras. During awards season, it's constant.

[Willa Paskin]

Yeah, totally. And when celebrities are going on a multi city press tour, Jean's job is literally to pack their bags for them.

[Melissa Rivers]

I'm like, okay, well, you're going to be in the middle of Russia or you're going to be in the middle of Ireland. For this premiere, it's going to be minus 20. So I really recommend that we do this coat. And with this, like, you have to have all that.

[Willa Paskin]

Oh, right. You have to look at the weather.

[Melissa Rivers]

Yep, weather. And you have to sit there and go, look. You need socks, shoes, bras, cufflinks. I would literally have a checkoff list for my assistants. When we were packing, it was like, were the seams opened? Were the white stitches taken out of the jacket? Do we have the pocket open for the pocket square? Is there double stick tape? Is there cufflinks? Is there socks for each outfit?

[Willa Paskin]

It sounds like such a difficult, stressful job. Was it actually fun?

[Melissa Rivers]

Oh, look, it is fun, but it's like a meal. When you get to have that delicious meal, if you don't realize that there were hours and hours upon preparation, from the person who tilled the soil to the sous chef and the prep people who put that together, then you don't begin to even comprehend what is involved in that beautiful outfit on the red carpet.

[Willa Paskin]

Now what's going on behind the scenes on the red carpet outfits is so leveled up, there's a lot of paperwork. Now behind the scenes, so many celebrities are being paid, like, anywhere from 250,000 to millions of dollars to wear the clothes on the red carpet. Stars have to, like, sign a lot of contracts and get very specific about what designer they're wearing, how many times they say the designer's name. It's all very rigorously contracted out.

[Dana Thomas]

I mean, what you're describing Is like an industry that sort of like, has grown up and become just like a proper business.

[Willa Paskin]

There's real money behind it. Yeah, right.

[Dana Thomas]

It functions and I guess. What is it meant for the clothes?

[Willa Paskin]

Well, if you ask Melissa Rivers, it's boring.

[Kelsey Grammer]

That's the thing. Everybody looks the same now.

[Willa Paskin]

Melissa Rivers says she could never revive the fashion police now because everybody is just, like, too polished.

[Kelsey Grammer]

People have been looking a thousand times better. But that also takes the fun out of our job. You know, you miss these celebrities dressing themselves because that's when you got the mistakes. You know, it was so much more fun because people would make their own decisions. You know, they'd be like, I love this. And you're just like, oh, dear God.

[Willa Paskin]

You know, But I feel like you and your mom were like the. The threat that made people get stylists. I mean, do you feel that way?

[Kelsey Grammer]

Oh, my God, totally. It's so bizarre. And I run into these stylists and they turn to me. Law Roach literally said to me, I have my career because of you, of you guys. Sometimes I wonder if we've released the Kraken. You know, I don't feel like, is the legacy going to be, wow, they changed fashion as a business, or is it going to be, oh, dear God, they destroy it? I think that's yet to be seen.

[Willa Paskin]

I have to say, though, Jean makes a very compelling defense for the rise of the stylists, because she says, it's not that stylists have made celebrities boring. Stylists have made regular people look more interesting.

[Melissa Rivers]

Look at especially menswear, to see an alpha male looking guy wearing a pink suit gives any guy permission to wear a colorful suit. It goes without saying that men can have these shortened pants with their ankles showing. It goes without saying that lots of men are wearing nail polish now. The proliferation of color, the proliferation of styles, it is all permission that was given because of celebrity styling, I'd like to think so.

[Dana Thomas]

Avery, what do you think of the stylist?

[Willa Paskin]

I mean, I do think having people who know a lot about fashion and not just like, what's in and what's hot, but like, they know a lot of weird, obscure designers. They know a lot of fashion history. By, like, having these people on hand dressing celebrities, I think it makes the conversation around clothing way more intellectual and interesting. And people get to, like, learn about fashion history in that way. So it's like elevated the conversation around clothing in this way that I, of course, love.

[Dana Thomas]

I. I see that. I think that there's like a little bit of a trade off because I also sort of recognize the kind of claustrophobic tastefulness that Melissa Rivers was talking about, where just, like, everyone looks pretty good. It's almost like the floor has been raised. And I think that's kind of to be expected. Like, when a profession has been professionalized, you're gonna see more competence, you're gonna see more polish, and you might lose a little something in. In wackiness, you know? And, like, if the stylist is bad, you know, maybe it's pretty bland.

[Willa Paskin]

Yeah. But conversely, if the stylist is good, then you do get some wackiness. You do get some risk, you know, like, good fashion doesn't mean boring fashion.

[Dana Thomas]

No, that. That is totally true. And I think also we've learned, like, if you wear an outfit that everyone hates now, at least you can just always, like, blame your stylist.

[Willa Paskin]

That was.

[Avery Trufelman]

This was an episode of Decoder Ring from Slate. It was produced by me, Avery Trufelman, and Evan Chung, who produces Decoder Ring with Willa Paskin, Katie Shepard, and Max Friedman. Derek John is the executive producer. Merritt Jacob is the senior technical director. Thanks for having me, y' all. It was really fun.

[Willa Paskin]

Only one more episode I'm gonna make this year. It'll be out later this month, and.

[Avery Trufelman]

Then I'm gonna disappear and go on book leave. Thanks for listening.

[Dana Thomas]

Radiotopia.

[Willa Paskin]

From PRX.