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- [00:00]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
Raise your hand if you want your nails to look perfect all the time. Me too. I'm Sarah Gibson Tuttle from Olive and June. And this is exactly why we created the Mani system. We wanted to make it possible for everyone everywhere to give themselves a beautiful manicure at home with our tools and our long lasting polish. Each manicure with our mani system comes out to just $2. That's right, $2, no more. 30, 40, $50 manis that you get at a salon and they take hours. Now you can paint your nails on your time and love them more than ever. And by the way, when people ask who did your nails? Where did you get them done? You're gonna proudly say I did them myself. Get 20% off your first mani system with code perfectmanny20@oliveandjeune.com perfectmanny20 that's code perfectmanny20 for 20% off@oliveandjune.com perfectmanny20 what makes a.
- [00:56]
Warby Parker Representative
Great pair of glasses? At Warby Parker it's all the invisible extras without the extra cost. Their designer quality frames start at $95 including prescription lenses plus scratch resistant, smudge resistant and anti reflective coatings and UV protection and free adjustments for life. To find your next pair of glasses, sunglasses or contact lenses or to find the Warby Parker store nearest you, head over to warbyparker.com that's warbyparker.com.
- [01:28]
Danielle
Hey everyone. Welcome to a Fourth of July episode of as the World Churns. I hope everyone is enjoying the holiday weekend, although a little later in the show we'll get into how exactly we're supposed to feel on July 4th given everything that's going on right now in this country. But let's start with this big dumbass bill which as we record this House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries is in the midst of a very long speech that may break the record for the longest speech I guess given on the House floor all in an attempt to stave off this bill passing. Probably it's not going to work. I am probably, I mean by time you're listening to this or watching this, the bill may have passed already. But I guess, Danielle, we were talking before we started and we have a bit of a disagreement about the Democrats efforts on this.
- [02:28]
Andy
Look, I, you know, I know that people like to believe that we need to put all attention on the Republicans depravity and on their odious bill that is going to kill millions of Americans and 100% right. But you also have to understand how we got here in the first fucking place. And the fact is that when Democrats are presented with a pathway forward, and this is what, this is, where my disagreement is, is that Hakeem Jeffries right now given a marathon speech on the floor as of the time that this recording has passed the eight hour mark, you know, congratulations to, to, to him for, for holding the floor. There's a lot that demo. And, and you know when people say like, oh, there's not a lot that Democrats can do, they're doing everything they can. And it's just like every single time the Democrats are minority, it's always my hands are tied behind my back. What do you want me to do? And yet when Republicans are in the same position, they manage to thwart entire legislative agendas with procedural maneuverings that are available to Democrats as well. And that is more than just political theater of holding down the floor. It's things that can be done. It's organized strategy. In terms of how you're talking to the American people about this bill, it's getting out and doing basic retail fucking politics. And not just stunts, right, that aren't tied to procedural slowdown mechanisms that we know that Republicans are incredibly good at. Because you had, you know, during the Biden administration, you had what's his face in the Senate. I can't remember the name of the Republican. He's one of the ones Tuberville, that held up. How many, how many of, of of of Biden's judge appointments did that man hold up? Hundreds. One person in the Senate. So you can't tell me when we're looking around at the things that Democrats can do, whether they're in the House or the Senate, that they're using every single tool in their toolbox while also speaking directly to the American people about what is going to happen if these, if this kind of legislation goes forward. So I say, great, I'm glad that you're doing this. But also, instead of talking about the big beautiful bill, bullshit bill, last fucking weekend, they spent their whole fucking time talking about Mandani and calling him a jihadist and spending all that fucking energy all weekend long on cable news. So where was your, where was your fire then? It was directed towards a progressive that actually has a plan of how to move this country forward and ignite the passions of young people that you want to pay fucking consultants to do. So that's my grievance.
- [05:09]
Danielle
Okay? So I, I don't fully disagree with you. And in particular, I think the Democrats own a lot of the reason we got to where we are But I do think they have been doing a pretty good job of getting the message out on this bill. I agree. It would have been nice if they didn't waste all our fucking time talking about Mamdani all weekend on, you know, last weekend on the shows. But, but I do think they've been pretty good about explaining just how bad this bill is going to be. I think we, at a certain point we do have to accept that when it comes to a vote like this, when you're in the minority, you're in the minority and there is only so much you can do. The thing is, as you sort of, I think hinted at without actually saying, the Republicans are much more willing when they're in the minority to, for lack of a better word, cheat.
- [06:05]
Andy
Yes.
- [06:06]
Danielle
And the Democrats are not willing to do that. And I think for a long time that has at least to a certain extent been admirable. I don't know that it is anymore because when, when one side is, is twisting, bending, breaking the rules so that it basically feels like if the Republicans have a one seat majority, there's nothing the Democrats can do. But if the Democrats have a 15 seat majority, there's a lot that the Republicans seem to be able to do. And then what we hear from the Democrats is well, we need a super majority, we need a veto proof party, we need whatever.
- [06:43]
Andy
And it's bullshit.
- [06:45]
Danielle
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so I, I do think we agree on that. I'm not quite, I'm not as hard on them with regard to this particular bill. I, I do think, I do think it needs to be hammered home that this is a Republican creation. And this is ultimately, this is Republicans that are going to be, that are doing this to this country. These are, this is Republicans that are going to be enacting these, these draconian Medicaid cuts. It's Republicans in, in this instance who are trying to go after trans people, who are trying to mess with people's health care. I guess my bottom line is I share some of your sentiment about the Democrats and I wish they'd done a hell of a lot fucking more to not get us to where we are now. But I do think, late as it is, I do think that they have been pretty on point with messaging on this bill. And I think going forward, I do think we need to hammer home that this is very much Donald Trump and MAGA and the Republicans vision of America where people lose benefits, where people lose healthcare. That's what they want.
- [07:56]
Andy
Yeah. And look, 59% of the people polled are against this bill. 59% of Americans, according to Quinnipiac, are against this bill. Right? And so the people know what is in this. They know what is going to be taken away. And, you know, here's the thing. Because Republicans don't give a shit about history, because they don't know history. The Revolutionary War was. Was begat over less, okay? Like, they threw tea into the harbor over less. And I'm like. And when people realize that, when 16 million people realize that they no longer have access to health care, when SNAP benefits and kids in are now going to go hungry, when you're going to visibly and physically see the changes in this country for the absolute fucking worse, they've just. They're playing a gambling game that in the long run, they're going to fucking lose and lose hard. And I pray that I'm alive for the day that they do.
- [08:56]
Danielle
I don't know how many people saw this story that was in the the New York Times earlier this week about how Trump invited a bunch of Republican Congress people to White House. They were people who were not necessarily supporting this bill. And he gave them swag. I don't know how else to say it. He gave them signed merchandise. He took pictures with them in the Oval Office and gave them copies. And a bunch of these holdouts are now not holdouts. And we sort of talked the other day about Lisa Murkowski and about selling out cheap. This is like the ultimate in selling out. You sold out cheap for a concert T shirt? For a.
- [09:40]
Andy
For, you know, for a flailing, failed fucking band. Washed up fucking band.
- [09:46]
Danielle
Yeah. And. And let's face it, it's the equivalent of one of those bootleg jerseys or shirts that you could buy outside the arena. I may be showing my age here. I don't know if this is still a thing, but. But it definitely was back when I was young. And it's just unbelievable. Tim Burchett, a Republican from Tennessee, he was a holdout. He was either not gonna vote for the big bullshit bill or he was on the fence and he walked out and he said the President was wonderful as always. Informative, funny. He told me he liked seeing me on tv, which was kind of cool. He is now voting for the bill. I mean, these are the guys, by the way, who like to think they walk around calling themselves alphas. Like, could you be. You're not even a beta. You're a fucking omega at this point. Like, you are as you are at the end of the Greek Alphabet, my friend. This is just the most pathetic shit I've ever seen. And it's just, it's just amazing how cheap they will sell out.
- [10:49]
Andy
The Omega. That's good. It's hard to keep your head, folks, on a. Honest. Well, I was going to say it's hard to keep your head straight because it's on a swivel trying to keep pace with the amount of cruelty, depravity, horrendous policies and behavior that is coming out of this regime. But I think that one of the most offensive, one of the most disturbing, one of the ones that, you know, probably maybe 20 years from now people will talk about as how could anyone have let this happen are the concentration camps that Ron DeSayton down in Florida was very happy to show off on Fox for a tour, an eight minute tour of these propped up tents that have bunk beds in cages, have no walls because they are tents on top of a abandoned, what is it, an abandoned tarmac in the Everglades which is surrounded by killer wildlife. And they've made merch. Speaking of merchandise, they've made merchandise to show their depravity. And I said, I posted on Blue sky and I said, you know, these are the same that would have sold T shirts outside of Auschwitz, right. And I want to be really clear about the fact that on this show, you know, we're not going to be referring to it as, you know, as Alcatraz or anything to that nature, because Alcatraz was a prison for criminals. This is not a prison for criminals. As 60 as 60 minutes and other reports have shown that the 90% of those that have been picked up have absolutely no criminal record. They don't even have a speeding ticket, right? Or a jaywalking ticket. So when Donald Trump sits before a fawning media and says that this is going to be amazing and we're going to house the most dangerous, horrible criminals here, who are those people? You mean the gardener, the anesthetician, the fucking nanny? Like who? Who are the hardened criminals? And then he went on to say, Andy, that we got a lot of homegrowns, right? He brought that back from his Oval Office meeting with the El Salvadorian president that says there are a lot of people bad who are born here that shouldn't be here anymore. And that's where he plans to put his dissenters, right? So it's history is repeating itself. And for, for people who have studied the Holocaust, I saw a professor post on social media and put up the pictures of internment, the Japanese internment camps, put up a picture of the concentration camps in Germany and put up a picture of what is now in Florida. And there is absolutely no differentiation, except one was in black, a black and white photo, and one is now in Technicolor. It's obscene and it's disgusting. And as the professor said, this is not how it begins. We're already more than halfway through. And I thought that that was probably one of the most startling things that I had heard.
- [14:10]
Danielle
Yeah, that was something that I was also thinking, too. And it really is just more proof that I should have been a professor, clearly. But. But no, we are. We're in it. We're in it now. We're obviously not full on Nazi Germany, or you and I would not be able to have this discussion, but nor are we in the sort of Weimar Republic, pre Nazi party state that Germany was in before Hitler rose to power. We're in it. We are. We are in the fascism phase. And it's not looming on the horizon. It's not, hey, if we're not careful, we're going to end up there. We're ending up there. We're not fully there yet, as we both said, but we're along the way. We are following the same exact path. And we have started down that path is, I think, what I'm trying to say. We're not about to start down that path. We're on the path now. This detention center, this concentration camp, American, Auschwitz, call it what you want, except for alligator Auschwitz, which I. Or, sorry, alligator Alcatraz, which I agree, We. We're not. We're not playing that game. Holy shit. The idea that we are here in 2025 and we are building camps like this in the middle of the swamp and bragging about it, was Laura Loomer, who, again, we've discussed her on the show before, and she used to be just a crank, just a crazy crank who you could laugh at and ignore. She now has the ear of the president. She's a counselor to the president, whether officially or unofficially. She was talking about wanting to put 65 million American in camps. I believe that's the total number of Latinos in this country. So to be clear, not immigrants, not undocumented immigrants. This is basically the total number of brown people in this country. That's who she wants to put in camps. And again, she has the ear of the president. So for people who say the Nazi comparisons are overblown and we shouldn't be making them, I don't know what else you call that. I don't know what you call rounding up people off the street. And sending them to these camps or sending them to camps overseas, which we'll talk about a little later in the show, without due process, without any trial or even presenting of evidence. I don't know what you call all of that, if not fascism, if not the equivalent or the near equivalent of Nazi Germany. I mean, we're doing the things that they did. I am at the point where it's like, you know, we are so past the if you invoke the Nazis, you lose the argument thing that we always used to say, you know, on the Internet. We are just so past that because everything we're doing is along the same path.
- [17:12]
Andy
Just a reminder that we are but six months into this regime, six months into this regime and Donald Trump has in record time done away with civil rights, done away with LGBTQ rights, has now built camps, is about to do away with America's middle class with this big bullshit bill. And, you know, you say, well, right now we're not full blown Germany because Nazi Germany, because you and I are still on air. I'm not 100% sure we'll be on air in six months. I'm not 100% sure what the end of this year looks like. And so I think that it's really important for folks. Again, I know that the people listening to this show are not part of that group, but you may have them in your family that think, well, we're, you know, woof, we're safe, we're fine. We're not brown, we're not black, we're not queer, we're not this. When all of those people are gone, who you think they're coming for next? No one is safe inside of fascism. No one.
- [18:17]
Instacart Representative
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- [18:50]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
Raise your hand if you want your nails to look perfect all the time. Me too. I'm Sarah Gibson. Tuttle from Olive and June. And this is exactly why we created the Mani system. We wanted to make it possible for everyone everywhere to give themselves a beautiful manicure at home with our tools and our long lasting polish. Each manicure with our mani system comes out to just two dollars. That's right, two dollars. No more. 30, 40, $50 manis that you get at a salon and they take hours. Now you can paint your nails on your time and love them more than ever. And by the way, when people ask, who did your nails? Where did you get them done? You're going to proudly say, I did them myself. Get 20% off your first Manny system with code perfectmanny20@oliveandjune.com perfectmanny20 that's code perfectmanny20 for 20% off at oliveandjune.com Perfectmanny20.
- [19:50]
Andy
So in the time this is how the Trump regime and fascism works. In the time that we've been recording this show, Trump's billionaire death bill has passed the House and will make its way to being signed into law. This bill will kick 16 million people off of Medicaid. It will take food out of the mouths of hungry children by taking billions out of snap. It will essentially halt all kinds of innovation and green technologies for infrastructure because it is funneling money back into big coal, Big coal and oil. Donald Trump and the Republican Party have single handedly dragged America back into the industrial age where pollution is going to be the norm, where education, public education was not a thing, where we did not have infrastructure that took care of the most vulnerable among us and people unnecessarily died from treatable diseases. This is who America is now. And so bravo to Donald Trump, to this regime that on top of building concentration camps, they are making everything from the, from the early the late 19th century and 20th century great again. So good for them.
- [21:16]
Danielle
Yeah. And I guess we should point out the final vote was 2:18, 2:14. Two Republicans. After all their talk of what was bad in this bill and how they originally wouldn't have voted for it if they knew such and such was in it. When push came to shove, only two Republicans voted with the Democrats on this. As we said earlier, the Republican Party owns this and MAGA owns this and Donald Trump owns it. And when tens of millions of people lose Medicaid and when possibly up to 12 million people suddenly don't have health care under the Affordable Care Act. Let's see if the finding out part happens after the fucking around. I mean, you don't want it to have to be this way. You don't want people to have to go through pain and suffering and death in order to wake a lot of people up. But I hope at least it does wake people up. This is just bad. There's absolutely no way to sugarcoat how awful this bill is and how. And the horrible ramifications it's going to have from tens of millions of Americans.
- [22:26]
Andy
Well, but I'm glad that the 83 billionaires that are in this country are going to live even more disgustingly comfortable than they already do at the expense of the 90%. And like I continue to say, not my words, but words that I love, when there's nothing left to eat, the people will eat the rich. And so you reap what you fucking sow. And this, this, in my humble opinion, this legislation is just the beginning of people being awakened to what this regime is and what it's about. Because, you know, for everything that you can say, just an aside, for everything that you can say about the hungries of the world and the Chinas of the world and what have you, you know what they do, Andy, they actually take the tax dollars that they have and they pull people out of poverty because they recognize that in order for their regimes to stay in, in power, that you have to give something to, to the people. Right. In order for them to continue to kind of move along in the way that you want. The Chinese pulled millions of people out of poverty with communism. And, you know, and Hungary has done the same. And so Donald Trump has come in and said to his entire base, to the entire country, I don't give a damn about you, what whatsoever. And if you die, you die. As Joni Ernst said, everyone dies, Andy. Everyone dies.
- [24:02]
Danielle
So, yeah, they've forgotten about the bread part of bread and circuses, like, you can't just give the people circuses to, to keep your regime in power. You got, you're supposed to give them bread as well. And they definitely got the circus part down pat, but they seem to have forgotten about the bread. So I guess we'll see. I guess we'll see what happens. But hey, you know, Zorin Mamdani, wanting people to be able to ride the bus for free. That's the great evil that, that lurks in our society apparently. But anyway, it's July 4th and it's.
- [24:39]
Andy
So much to fucking celebrate.
- [24:41]
Danielle
I mean, it's supposed to be, yeah, it's supposed to be a day of celebration, a day of independence from a lot of things that suddenly we don't seem to be too independent from anymore. And I want to talk about Kilmara, Abrego, Garcia, because this is the guy, as we probably remember, the guy who was sent mistakenly, and I hesitate to use that because all these people shouldn't have been sent there, but he was, by the Trump administration's own admission, he was sent by mistake to seekot to the camp in El Salvador. He has since been returned to America although he's still in prison with no charges against him. But his attorneys have now filed or we have now gotten access to the paperwork that his attorneys have filed for wrongful imprisonment and for all the other things that were happening and they are, this is a full on torture camp. There's no other way of putting this really among the various things that happened to him. There were, according to these, to the paperwork, he and 20 other men were forced to kneel from 9pm to 6am and they were struck by guards if they fell from exhaustion during this time period. Again, 9pm to 6am they were denied bathroom access. They were forced to soil themselves. They were all put in overcrowded cells with no windows, bright lights on 24 hours a day. They were on metal bunk beds with no mattresses. It is just absolutely unbelievable. And you know, again, we own this. This happened in El Salvador. We own this. It was the Trump administration that sent him and these other people there. We can go with this fiction all we want, that, well, this didn't happen in America. No, it might as well have. So it's just the juxtaposition of reading this and at the same time we're supposed to celebrate our nation's birthday and our independence and we're supposed to be a free nation, democracy. And this is between this bill passing and reading stuff like this and what's going on in Florida with what's basically a concentration camp there. Danielle, happy July 4th.
- [27:15]
Andy
You know, fuck this country. To be honest, you know, I like it is. It's just the. I want to pull this up because it's a writer that I follow who I really like and his name is John Pavlovitz and his substack is the Beautiful Mess. And he wrote a piece entitled Born on the Farce of July. This Independence Day isn't a birthday for our nation, it's a funeral. And I just want to read a part of it because it just so much ties into what I read every 4th of July, which is Frederick Douglass's what to the slave is the fourth of July. And this is akin to that. And he writes this for actual patriotic Americans. This isn't a party, it's a funeral. There is nothing to celebrate here. We shouldn't be singing right now. We should be grieving. We should be sitting vigil for the country we could have had. But Many never see. We should be mourning over how little of our aspirations of independence have trickled down to the people in the streets. We should be lamenting how commonplace hatred has become in this supposed sweet land of liberty. Most of all, we should be embarrassed, no, mortified, that no matter how it happened, democracy has all but died on our watch. Here nearing the quarter century mark in our nation's life, we have collectively failed those who came before by allowing the ascension of the very fascism millions of our forebears courageously fought, bled and died, driving back into the sewers of history the moral cancer they defeated on the other side of the planet we have allowed to make home here. I mean, there is nothing to me that sums up better my sentiments and feelings of where this country is again. It's just something else that is so reflective of Donald Trump that he would rush this legislation to have it be signed on a day of pageantry, because that's all he has ever been about, is fucking pageantry and with. With no substance, right? Like, let. Look at, look, we had Liberation Day, which was the day that he brought in the fucking tariffs that tanked the market that day. Look, it's the 4th of July and we're going to make sure that people are suffering and die unnecessarily by turning back the clock on social welfare and infrastructure that was built. So I just. I find it. I don't. I don't even know the word anymore, Andy. Honestly, I don't even know the word anymore to what I find it, except for depraved.
- [30:01]
Danielle
Yeah, I mean, that's a good word for it. What really sucks is this empty patriotism of the right. You know, I remember having a discussion with someone on. I guess it was on Blue sky about how Democrats should stop using the word patriotic and, you know, and things like that. And I said I completely disagreed. And I thought that basically what the left needs to do is reclaim the word patriotic. Patriotism doesn't mean my country right or wrong. That's nationalism or whatever the hell you want to call it. That's not patriotism. Patriotism is. I want to make my country better. And patriotism is, you know, there are ideals that this country was built on which were not met from the get go. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be striving to bring this country closer to those ideals. The idea that all people are created equal, you know, the platitudinous stuff. But look, it goes without saying, we had the original sin of slavery, which sort of. Right on Its face renders moot all the other claims of all men are created equal, et cetera, et cetera. But there is something that needs to be done where this phony, this surface patriotism of the right, which angers me to no end, that they're the ones that get to drape themselves in the flag. They're the ones that get to run around acting like they are the quote, unquote, real Americans when everything they stand for should be an affront to what America should be. I consider myself a patriot. And I consider myself a patriot because I want this goddamn country to be as good as it can possibly be. And that, to me, that's what patriotism is. And walking around like, you know, chanting, you usa, usa, every five minutes and kissing the flag and wrapping yourself in it, as Trump has done, literally, that to me, is not. That's not patriotism. That is. It's nothing. It's absolutely nothing. So I really do think I would love for the left to absolutely reclaim patriotism and reframe what it's supposed to mean. So, yeah, that's really all I have.
- [32:32]
Andy
I was going to say fuck that guy, but yeah, I know. So actually, I will fuck those guys, even though it's not this segment.
- [32:42]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
Hi. Who here loves when their nails are perfectly done?
- [32:46]
Andy
Me.
- [32:46]
Sarah Gibson Tuttle
I'm Sarah Gibson Tuttle and I started Olive in June because, let's be real, we all deserve to have gorgeous nails. But who wants to spend a fortune or half their day at the salon? And that's why I created the Mani system. So you can have that salon perfect manicure right at home. And guess what? The best part, each mani only costs $2. Yup, you heard me, $2. No more 30, 40, $50. Salon trips that eat up your day. Now you can paint your nails whenever you want, wherever you want. And trust me, you're going to be obsessed with your nails. And everyone is going to ask you, where did you get your nails done? And here's a little something extra. Head over to olivenjune.com and get 20% off your first mani system with code perfectmanny20@oliveandjune.com perfectmanny20. That's code perfectmanny20 for 20% off at. You're all set for a nail glow up. Let's get those nails looking fabulous, shall we?
- [33:41]
Warby Parker Representative
What makes a great pair of glasses? At Warby Parker, it's all the invisible extras without the extra cost. Their designer quality frames start at $95, including prescription lenses plus scratch resistant, smudge resistant, and anti reflective coatings and UV protection and free adjustments for life. To find your next pair of glasses, sunglasses or contact lenses, or to find the Warby Parker store nearest you, head over to warbyparker.com that's warbyparker.com.
- [34:15]
Andy
Folks. I am very excited to welcome on to as the World Churns for the first time, Negar Motazavi, who is an Iranian American journalist, editor and host of the Iran podcast and a senior fellow at the center for International Policy. Full disclosure, Nagar and I met, my God, I think it was now, 10 years ago, right? 10 years ago.
- [34:44]
Negar Motazavi
10, 11 years ago.
- [34:46]
Andy
10, 11 years Ago when we took a trip with a bunch of other journalists to Israel and Palestine for a week in 2015. And it was an extraordinary experience in many ways. And I just have relied on your analytic, you know, mind as it pertains to Iran and the Middle east in areas that I am not abreast in that I always follow you. And so, Nagar, when this escalation. Right. Happened, when we watched as Netanyahu began to attack Iran and kind of goat the Trump regime into also attacking Iran, there was no other person that I wanted to have on this show than you. So talk like, you know, bring us in to kind of how we got to that place and then, you know, and then we can talk about where we stand right now.
- [35:51]
Negar Motazavi
Sure. It's great to be with you, Daniel, and I'm honored that you can rely on me for some Middle east news. So just to give you the big picture without too many details, Benjamin Netanyahu has been trying to push the US Into a war with Iran, something similar to Iraq, Afghanistan, for the past two decades, 20 something years. And it's not a secret. He's had speeches in the US Congress. He's tried to push every president and administration since the US Invasion of Iraq, essentially saying next should be Iran and ATAP and Iran's nuclear program or generally the country. And throughout these years also, whenever there was any form of diplomacy taking shape between Tehran and Washington, he's been trying to sabotage that because essentially diplomacy is the alternative to that war that he's been wanting. And that involves the Obama years, which he did it publicly and behind the scenes throughout the Biden years, which diplomacy didn't really culminate. And then also the past few months under the Trump administration, which they were attempting some form of diplomacy with Tehran, he's been trying to sabotage it. And then before the last round of talks was scheduled between Iran and the US on his son, did he went for an attack on Iran just a few days before that, essentially I would say to sabotage that diplomacy and then to try to pull the US Into a war with Iran. So it turned into a what's now called a 12 day war between Israel and Iran. The Israelis started attacking Iran, really caught them by surprise. The Iranians attacked back. And it just went back and forth for about 12 days. And in the process of that, the US was also pulled in, essentially with the Trump administration doing the 180 and going in for a one time strike, but a big one on Iran's nuclear program.
- [37:53]
Andy
So to me and many folks that I follow, it seemed that the language that was coming out of this Trump regime seemed very similar to the language that we heard during the Bush years, is that there are weapons of mass destruction. We have to go in, we have to, you know, stop this nuclear program. Even though Donald Trump's own national security director, Tulsi Gabbard had said the Iranians don't have nuclear capacity, the international intelligence agencies had agreed that this is not a thing, but that Donald Trump was going to do what, you know, Dick Cheney did with Bush is just like, let's create this mass hysteria. We can't have this Muslim nation having weapons of mass destruction. Is that the case? Like, is there an actual program? Is there not an actual program? And how much does just Islamophobia play into these kind of diplomatic talks and this kind of pushback that we've seen not just in this regime, but in other US Administrations with Iran?
- [39:07]
Negar Motazavi
Absolutely. Danielle. First of all, let me caveat by saying anything we say as far as an opposition to war, military conflict doesn't come out of a place of, you know, liking for the Iranian regime. That's a given, of course. And there is all kinds of domestic repression, a very close, you know, political system space and all of that. But it's absolutely this, as you're describing, the atmosphere is similar, but it's also different that because it's more complex. Now is a time when the American people have had, have recent memory of Iraq and Afghanistan basically having to give the keys back to the Taliban after 20 years and leaving Afghanistan potentially worse than it was 20 years before. Trillions of dollars, you know, in U.S. tax money, blood loss, lots of American lives, service members, personnel, and lots of civilians in these countries. And essentially what did it bring? More instability, more chaos, more insecurity to the region, more, you know, armed resistance, all kinds of terrorist groups stemming from these invasions and the lack of stability in these countries. So that's that's in the memory. And ironically, Donald Trump ran as a president and won, calling himself the President of peace and opposing those forever wars. I don't think he potentially has any form of ideology for or against. But this is what would win you the election in the US because the American public, poll after poll, we're seeing that the public is against the US Launching or entering another big endless war in the Middle East. And a war with Iran would be even worse than Iraq. That kind of, you know, attack and boots on the glass. So I think they're trying to reconcile at least those, the two wings of their own party. Even the MAGA sort of America first wing that is very anti war is more connected to the base and then the neocon or sort of hawkish wing like the Dick Cheneys that are more of this sort of foreign policy elite in Washington, that not just Republicans also this includes some centrist Democrats, it's cross party and also interest groups, you know, all kinds of political interest groups in Washington across the US Lobby groups and of course Israel and Benjamin Netanyahu itself as US Closest allies. So there's this constant push and pull to the point that you see the 180 happening even within a day. So on the day of the Israeli attack, we now know later reporting that basically the US was reluctant but gave them a yellow light, not a red light, not a green light. And initially the White House statement, the State Department statement was that this is an Israeli operation. The US has nothing to do with, with this. They even warned the Iranians to not attack the US in retaliation. And then within a day, Donald Trump seems to see that the operation apparently is going really well, which now also it turns out that that's, that wasn't the entire truth and he doesn't want to fall behind. So he starts calling it excellent, spectacular. And eventually within a week joins the operation with the US attack which I think was a major, major escalation. It was very dangerous. I mean the, the entire region, the world, Americans, everyone's lucky that it didn't escalate into, explode into something out of control. It came with an Iranian response that was very measured and through mediation and essentially both sides took an off front. But you know, these things are, these escalations can be very dangerous, very risky and attention essentially this is how big wars start.
- [42:39]
Andy
So given the fact that you know one, what we know now about the bunker bombs, the 12 bunker bombs that the Trump regime dropped on Fodor, on one hand, intelligence is saying, oh, we stopped their nuclear program this is Donald Trump. We obliterated it. We stopped it, on the other hand, from actual Israeli and US Military intelligence. They're like, maybe we slowed it down for two to three months. Then they come out again this week and say, oh, no, we may have slowed it down for two years again. So my question is, what did we slow down? Because if the larger intelligence community is saying that there is not a nuclear program that they are building, but then we heard, oh, well, they didn't really blow up a whole bunch of things because a lot of things had been moved from that facility ahead of time because Donald Trump was yapping on his social media platform, giving away like the, the, like a Bond villain. We're coming to attack you, so, you know, move your stuff. So what, what do you understand or what have you heard in terms of what was, you know, what was harmed in this process and where is, where, where is if any program right now?
- [44:02]
Negar Motazavi
So, yes, as you said, the chatter was out few days up to a week before that. And then eventually what we saw in the recording was that they even gave their audience a vast notice, which in a way it was good because they could also move personnel. So the US Attack wasn't a deadly attack, unlike the Israeli. Two weeks of relentless bombing, which killed about a thousand people in Iran, injured 5,000, majority of them civilians, many children. I mean, the images that are coming out of, like the homes destroyed, car bombs going off for assassinations, it's just horrific. The US Attack actually wasn't deadly because of that advance notice. So no such staff in these three sites. So Fordo, Isfahan and Natanz, three major nuclear sites in Iran, they're kind of scattered across the country, were targeted and also, yes, the uranium, the enriched uranium, you know, this contested material was moved and the fate of it is unknown. I mean, it's somewhere in Iran, but it sounds like they've saved it. So, yes, they destroyed the site, essentially these infrastructure in the buildings. The uranium is unclear where it is. Iran is also now limiting the international monitoring, the UN watchdog, iaea, as a result of this, they're very clearly messaging saying, if we have a civilian program, by the reporting of U.S. intelligence and the international watchdog, if it's a civilian program, which we have opened to international inspections and monitoring and safeguards, and simultaneously you come and bomb this program, then we're not going to be part of that international agreement. So they have reduced their cooperation also and threatened to even reduce it even more. And yes, so they have achieved some destruction of the sides. But not the entirety of the program. How far back they said it, we don't know. First they said years, like you said, then the next months. Nuclear experts have been warning that there is no way to completely destroy through bombing. And I think, I believe it was Lindsey Graham or one of the Republicans essentially saying the program was obliterated, but we have to attack it again. I mean, that's self explanatory. How is it obliterated? That's one talking point. And then why do you need to attack it again? So as far as Benjamin Netanyahu and the US attack, achieving a total destruction of the weapons of mass destruction, which didn't exist, obviously that didn't happen. There is also sort of a side conversation about regime change I can talk about later. That also wasn't achieved. Yeah, but yeah, it's just major escalations, a lot of civilians killed. Just less chance for a potential diplomatic solution to this nuclear problem. Which I think the only successful and viable route that we've seen so far is diplomacy.
- [46:59]
Andy
But it's like, you know, diplomacy is the only route. But if I'm Iran, I don't trust the United States. And I'm not saying, and I'm not saying, oh, the United States should trust the Iranian regime. But Obama, after, you know, several years of negotiations, was able to set up, you know, a treaty with Iran. We will stop the sanctions so that you can build back your economy, you know, and make it more viable and be able to enter into global trade in a way that had been stopped before. And then Donald Trump, because he can't stand the fact that Obama is a better president than him and was able to have success in many ways, comes in and literally blows up that deal. So, you know, when we talk about you need to have an understanding of the complexity of the region, the complexity of the country, the people and nuance in order to be able to succeed in diplomatic resolution. None of which is the forte of this, of this Trump regime. So how likely do you think that it is that we are not just in kind of, you know, a low hum of a, of, of an escalation as opposed to like a full blown ceasefire?
- [48:19]
Negar Motazavi
Well, I'm, you know, I'm really worried that that may be the case. So the downside, as you're saying, is that there's absolutely no patience, no forte. The Obama. First of all, it took Obama his entire first term just to get to the negotiating table with the Iranians. Then it took him two years of intense negotiations. At some point they were saying these negotiators were spending more time with each other than their own families. And to give yourself a 60 day limit and sort of try to achieve something that complex and then run out of patience, is that one thing to begin with. But I would say there's one upside here, maybe a silver lining, and this is something the Iranians are understanding, is that if Donald Trump as a Republican reaches a deal with Iran, at least there's more chance of this being more sustainable. Because hopefully a future Democrat will not come and unravel it the way he did to his previous president. So exactly as you're saying, just because it was Barack Obama's name on that nuclear deal, which was a really important foreign policy achievement, legacy of the Obama administration, Donald Trump pulled out of it. And essentially that also undermines U.S. credibility in the world because as a foreign country, nobody cares who your president is. You sign, you shake hands with the United States of America and then the party changes. Another president comes, is like, oops, sorry, we don't abide by the passing agreements. But I think that's the one understanding in Tehran is that, okay, if we somehow make a deal with this administration, hopefully it will stay longer and he will be able to rally the Republicans who have traditionally been against diplomacy, pro war, pro more hawkish policies, and then Democrats would essentially be more of an adult. And if they come back to the White House, they won't unravel it. That's the only sibling. But this is a big if. This is if, if a deal is reached, if diplomacy actually succeeds. And after all this, you know, he, in his first term, he assassinated the top Iranian general that also brought the two countries to the brink of war. And then in this time with this attack, I feel like the understanding in the administration, their understanding of diplomacy is very skewed. They don't see it as if you go and talk to your adversary, you give something and you take something. I think the understanding is you just go and take without giving, you know, and if they don't, they don't give you what you want, you kind of strong arm them and force them peace through strength. I think peace through strength is exactly that. We want diplomacy, but we're going to bomb you first to force you to accept the deal that was on the table. And I mean, I don't know how this is going to succeed in the short, medium or long term. I hope it does because obviously diplomacy is the alternative to war. But it's just very dangerous. And I think it can sort of flare out again as you're saying this could just be a hum and then the same thing can happen again.
- [51:28]
Andy
We just have like just two minutes left. But one of the things that I did want to ask you was about regime change. And you know, initially the Trump regime saying, oh no, we're not interested in Iranian regime change. Then Donald Trump posts on social media, oh no, I think regime change could be a good idea. And then J.D. vance is like, oh no, we're not interested. What is it in your mind?
- [51:52]
Negar Motazavi
So again, going back to the American people, I think there's absolutely no interest in the US doing another regime change war in the region because we saw how that turned out in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya. Nobody can claim that those were successful. So I think that's why sort of the JD Vance and the MAGA wing of the party has the upper hand here because the American people don't want to be involved in something like that. And also inside Iran, ironically we saw that even though the Israelis were kind of pushing for that in parallel, nothing like that happened. We didn't even see one protest during the war. And it's very natural. I mean, when people are running away from their homes, being bombed from their city, potentially from the country, people even left Iran in fear of being targeted. There is no time and space for that kind of internal dissent. So yes, the regime has a very serious legitimacy crisis. It's not a popular. But that doesn't mean that people want to be bombed from the outside to sort of be freed, you know, with these freedom bombs because they saw, as I said, a thousand people killed. And people essentially became even more clear eyed where the freedom bombs are going to land on people's homes, on hospitals, ambulances, you know, car bombs going off in the street. So we saw sort of a rally around maybe not the flag, not the government, but a rally around the country, the homeland. When you see your home being targeted, when you see your neighbor's house being attacked, it sort of created a sense of unity, I would say, even within the population, even the more, you know, anti regime opposition and part of the civil society. We're all echoing an anti war message.
- [53:31]
Andy
Yeah, well, we will leave it there today. Negar, thank you so much for giving us some insight into a very complex area, very complex region of the world and breaking it down for us the way that you do. And please tell people where they can find you if they want to follow up and be connected with foreign policy in the way that you cover it.
- [53:54]
Negar Motazavi
Sure. Thanks Daniel. It's great to be with you. So I have the Iran Podcast. I host the Iran Podcast. They can search it up on major podcast platforms. I post most of my interviews on Twitter. Also, Negar Mortazavi. And as you said, I'm a senior fellow at the center for International Policy cip, where they can also follow our work and the work of my colleagues.
- [54:13]
Andy
Amazing. Thank you.
- [54:15]
Negar Motazavi
Thank you.
- [54:16]
Danielle
All right, Danielle, so who's your patriotic. Fuck that guy. For our July 4th episode, you know.
- [54:23]
Andy
It'S like, I guess I'm doing a combo because it seems as if this. This country is just focused on the wrong 1%, you know? And what do I mean by that? I mean that. That the Supreme Court, the Supreme MAGA Court, the Roberts disgusting Court, has decided that they are going to take up two cases testing the constitutionality of state laws that bar transgender athletes from girls and women's sports teams. And why do I say that it's important that Americans are focused on the wrong 1%? Because that's exactly the population that trans people make up. And when you look at trans people in sports, it's actually less than 1%. And maybe if we put our attention and time. And the Supreme Court, we're taking up cases that had to do with billionaires, you know, running roughshod over this country and the rise of American oligarchs. Oh, but that's right. I'm sorry, that's where they get their money from. That's who pays their mortgages. That's who takes them on vacation. So, of course, let's continue on with the distraction and the bullshit that they'll do when they come back in this next term to further debase our Constitution and themselves in front of the, you know, in front of the fucking feet of Trump. So there's that. So that's happening. And then on top of which, my apologies for anyone that has attended UPenn. My apologies that your alma mater is a piece of shit. My apologies that you are now associated with transphobia, that in a way to try and save themselves and, you know, the millions of dollars that Donald Trump was threatening to withhold from UPenn, that they have decided to erase the win of a transgender swimmer, Leah Thomas, and also for coming in, by the way, she came in fourth, right? And it became the. This huge deal because some straight CIS woman who came in fifth bitched and moaned about the fact that she was beat by a trans athlete. And this is the win that spurred. Which, again, wasn't a win. She came in fourth, spurred all of this controversy around trans athletes. So what does UPENN do Erase her win. The woman that came in fifth is now fourth. Woohoo. You don't even get a medal, you stupid fucking idiot. And on top of which, UPenn has decided to, I believe, do away with their DEI and their gender studies, et cetera, et cetera, all because they think that there is some way to appease a fascist. There isn't, but, you know, fuck those guys.
- [57:19]
Danielle
You forgot to mention that Riley Gaines is also blonde. Sorry, Yeah, I think that's important.
- [57:25]
Andy
Okay.
- [57:27]
Danielle
No, I'm joking. Yeah. This is gross. And I mean, you don't ever have to hand it to them, but the idea that Riley Gaines has parlayed a fifth place finish in a college swim meet to right wing superstardom. I'd like to say good for her, except it's not good for her. It's not good for anybody.
- [57:50]
Andy
But the mediocrity is astounding.
- [57:52]
Danielle
Well, it's just, you know, again, these are the people that complain about DEI initiatives and stuff like that, but meanwhile, she's famous for coming in fifth in a college swim race. So, yeah, what Penn's doing here is bad, I think. How? The Supreme Court is going to rule on the transgender athlete case. And, and just everyone, look, if you don't know by now that the transgender athlete issue is a stalking horse for just complete and utter erasure of trans people and for transphobia in general, then, you know, I don't know what to tell you. Fuck those guys.
- [58:37]
Andy
So, Andy, how do you close out the funeral of America? I'm sorry, the 4th of July celebration of this godforsaken country with your. Fuck that guy.
- [58:50]
Danielle
So I'm going to close out with something that, you know, you might think on its face is not that big a deal. And it was. It's Paramount, the parent company of CBS, among other companies, agreeing to a settlement of $16 million to end a lawsuit that President Trump filed against it over a 60 Minutes interview with Kamala Harris that he was claiming was edited to make her look better. This was a lot less money than Trump was asking for. The settlement comes with no apology or admission of wrongdoing. On Paramount's part, on CBS News's part, on 60 Minutes part, the money does not technically go directly to Trump. It goes to a future presidential library. So, you know, all of this sounds like, all right, fine, they settled for, you know what to them is peanuts. $60 million and admitted nothing wrong. No big deal. It is a big deal. It's a big deal because this is a bribe. This is a straight up bribe. Shari Redstone, who owns Paramount, has been trying to close a deal to sell Paramount to another company, Skydance. And they have the. The deal has been, or not sell, merge the companies, I guess, technically. And this lawsuit has been getting in the way of that and has been getting in the way of a needed blessing from the federal government for this merger. So by settling this suit, what Redstone is doing here and what Paramount is doing here is greasing the skids for this merger to be approved by the Trump administration. It's a straight up bribe. It's them saying, we're going to give you this money. We're going to settle this suit. Which, by the way, they would have won in court because the suit is ridiculous. But instead of choosing to fight it and instead of choosing to say, you don't get as president to sue a news show, you don't get to sue journalism and a news division because you don't like something that they ran. Instead of doing that, which would have been kind of an important thing to do, you know, instead of doing that, they settled so that they could get this merger approved. So, yes, the terms of the settlement aren't that bad. They're not, you know, that onerous. But the fact that they wanted this settlement and that they basically. Again, I'm going to keep using the word bribe because that's what this is. This is them saying, we are giving you $16 million for your presidential library. Now, please approve our merger. And the idea that a media company will do that, a media company that again owns cbs, which, which obviously CBS News is part of. And this was about a news division. This was about journalism and the fact that they would sell that out in order to get a merger approved. No, you get my big old. Fuck that guy for the end of this week.
- [62:14]
Andy
You know, there was a time when I was chasing the applause from mainstream corporate media. There was a time when I really believed in the Fourth Estate and wanted to be a part of educating the American people. And I tell you, it didn't take much time inside of that machine to realize that education couldn't be further from the fucking goal of news outlets, of media outlets. Hence why you and I are here at Independent now for that reason. Because this is just emblematic of where corporatized media has been going over the last 20 years. Right? Like, which is a pay for play, a pay for access. You know, we'll do these nice stories so that we can get in the room with you even though you're a fucking monster. But, oh, you're good for our ratings. How many times I heard that in the halls of cable news outlets saying, oh, Donald Trump is bad for the country, but he's good for ratings, right? How is that working out for everybody now? And so to see them, you know, bend the knee, throw more money at this fucking grifting piece of shit is really just, it's disgusting, it's disheartening. But it's been a long time coming. And like I continue to say, what we are experiencing right now is a big reveal of everybody showing us exactly who they are and exactly whose side they're on and there isn't anyone that is on the side of the people at all. And, and folks need to just reconcile with that and put their eyeballs and their money and their attention elsewhere. Fuck those guys.
- [64:13]
Danielle
Happy 4th.
- [64:14]
Andy
Happy 4th.
- [64:18]
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- [64:50]
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