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Ryan Reynolds
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.
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Andy Levy
I don't know if you knew this.
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Ryan Reynolds
But anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying.
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Danielle Moody
It's not just for celebrities.
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So do like I did and have.
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One of your assistant's assistants switch you.
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To Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com.
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Danielle Moody
Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra fee full terms@mintmobile.com hey you know what?
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Ryan Reynolds
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Jessa Crispin
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Ryan Reynolds
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- [01:02]
Jessa Crispin
Well friends, welcome to another fabulous episode of as the World Churns. I am your co host Danielle Moody along with my best partner in crime or crime partner I don't even know. We're trying to stop some type of crime from happening. Andy Levy so Andy, you know, like I say often over the weekends I like to take a little bit of a siesta for my mental mental health from the news. But Donald Trump never does any such thing. He's just one non stop fucking garbage truck. And over the weekend on his broke down social media platform decided to repost a conspiracy theory that quote, joe Biden was executed in 2020 and he has been replaced with a robotic clone. Of course, the White House could not be reached for their response and reactions to said post, but the York Times did put out a An article entitled Trump Amplifies another Outlandish Conspiracy theory. Biden is a robotic clone and he posted this after 10pm on Saturday because whoever needs a fucking break from him? I don't know. The New York Times has said that Trump has blamed Biden for all manner of societal ills and assailed his mental acuity, including with the specious theory that Biden's aides used an auto pen to enact policies and pardons. Meanwhile, Donald Trump and his administration did the same thing. But the New York Times, they did do one thing that I appreciated, which is in this piece that they wrote, they tallied that in Donald Trump's first four years in his first administration that he totaled 30,573 lies, which is on average, Andy, of 21 lies a day. But this one, as you said, as you said before we even started recording, this is actually not anything that we should be laughing at. And it's more insidious and dangerous than anything else. What say you about robotics? Biden.
- [03:26]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah. The thing is, we are so far beyond the point where conspiracy theories are. Are fun. And I say this as someone who's been, as far back as I can remember, I've been really into conspiracy theories. Not believing them, but reading about them. And just, I always have found them fascinating. You know, chemtrails, harp, everything. It's all fascinating to me. And I used to actually get a lot of enjoyment out of reading about them. And I can't do that anymore. And this gets added to the list of things that Donald Trump has ruined because, you know, we now live in a world with QAnon and we now live in a world where people associated with QAnon and just associated with conspiracy nonsense in general occupy positions of power in this country, often high positions. And so when you see something like this, like, it's really easy to just, just roll your eyes because that's a sane reaction, a sane reaction to hearing someone say that Joe Biden was executed in 2020 and replaced by either a robot or a clone or a robot clone. Your reaction to that should be to roll your eyes and to just be like, you need help, Go away. Yeah. But obviously when it's the President of the United States sharing these thoughts and spreading them to millions and millions of people, it ain, and it ain't something that you can just say, you know, oh, I don't have to worry about this. We do have to worry about this because all of this ties together, all of the conspiracy mongering, whether it's Joe Biden is a robot clone or they're eating your pets, it's all of a piece. And I feel like I use that phrase a lot on this show. And I was just thinking about this because I think it's really important that we understand that all of this goes together. And so the stuff that seems, you know, like this, that, that seems just flat out insane and, you know, just hand wave it away, you can't, because it goes along with the immigrants you know, are eating your pets. It goes along with the Jews are doing whatever the Jews are doing, black people are doing whatever black people are doing, brown people, it all goes together. Phrases like trans Ideology, you know, as if there are trans people out there trying to convert everyone. And all of this is the same mindset. And it is a mindset that is unfortunately now it is ascendant in this country and it is dominant, I would say in this current administration. So long way of saying that, of sort of answering your question that, yeah, we can't just ignore this.
- [06:22]
Jessa Crispin
No, we can't ignore it. And I think that, you know, the, the issue with the things that Donald Trump and this regime spread is the fact that they're trying to create and pull us into their alternate fact universe, right? Where if you question everything, then nothing matters anymore, right? Like if, if you're questioning whether or not up is down and down is up, whether the sky is blue, if water is wet, right, Then everything begins to lose its meaning. If you lose faith, right, that you can follow the President of the United States and assume that you're going to be receiving clarity, right, Information, then when he actually does do things that are horrible and terrible, like let's say, allow 59 Africaners to come into the country because we don't have enough of our own domestically grown racist, we now have to import them into the country. And he holds up pictures of, of white farmers that have been killed, but it's not even from the country that he's talking about. Do you know, like this, see, this is the way that the insidious nature of their fascist white nationalist regime take hold and spread like wildfire. And then people don't trust, they don't trust any outlet anymore because you're now you have the New York Times, right, quote, unquote, legacy outlet that now has to run a story about Trump talking about Biden being executed and being an actual clone. And so now that New York Times story is in circulation with all of the conspiracy stories, but the New York Times, like, well, we have to report on it. The President said it. So it's just, it becomes this self fulfilling prophecy of insanity where no, there, there is no real news anymore. There's no, there's no one to trust. If you can't trust the President, you can't trust legacy outlets. You can't trust what you, what you're seeing, whether or not it's been autocorrected like it is 1984. And I think that that is part and parcel of the strategy that they have, which is to drive everyone off, kilter, off balance and a bit nuts so that you can't trust your eyes and ears.
- [08:42]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah, I completely agree. And look, that's why? You know, you mentioned the New York Times having to do this. NBC news.com did a story on this. Let me read you the headline. Trump shares unfounded conspiracy theory, claiming Biden was executed in 2020. Yes, this is an unfounded conspiracy theory. Did you really need that word in the headline? Like, I don't. There's something about that. I'm not mad at NBC News for doing that. But on the other hand, it's like having to put the word unfounded in a headline about a story regarding a claim that Joe Biden was executed in 2020 and replaced by some kind of robot entity. That, I think, is exactly what you're getting at. Like, we're at the point where a legacy news organization feels they have to put the word unfounded in there as opposed to just saying, you know, trump shares conspiracy theory. And I get it. I would have preferred the word like, loony or something like that, because unfounded, to me, it almost. It gives it too much weight. Like, it almost. That's. I think, what I'm trying to say. It gives it too much weight. Like, well, we looked into this and we found no evidence of it.
- [09:59]
Jessa Crispin
Right.
- [10:00]
Ryan Reynolds
Instead of just dismissing it out of hand. But like you said, this is what they do. This is how you get the great replacement theory that, you know, this is how you get marchers in Charlottesville saying, jews will not. The Jews will not replace us. Because all of these conspiracy theories are thrown out there, and sometimes they're true believers. Like, Marjorie Taylor Greene talks about Jewish space lasers. I think she is that nuts that she believes the shit that she spouts. There are other people, like you said, who put this shit out there because they know it muddies the waters, and it makes it easier to condition people to believe in conspiracy theories. And as you said, it also makes it easier, you know, for people not to believe true stuff. So it's just. It's a giant mess that we have found ourselves in, and it's a little scary trying to figure out how we're going to get out of this.
- [10:53]
Jessa Crispin
I just. I. You know, the thing is, Andy, I don't think that you and I are gonna find our way out of this. This country is not gonna find its way out of this for decades. And that, to me, is what is the most terrifying. We have to now discount that Joe Biden isn't a robot clone on a Monday. This is just this, like, idiocy personified. Yeah.
- [11:23]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah. By the way, if he is a robot clone, we need better technology. Danielle. We are all going to die. I am not just saying that. I am quoting Republican Senator Joni Ernst, who was at a town hall in her home state of Iowa on Friday, and she was getting some pushback from attendees about the Medicare cuts. That. Or, sorry, the Medicaid cuts that are in the big, beautiful, lying bill. Someone in the crowd yelled, according to the Associated Press, that people will die without coverage because of the changes to Medicaid eligibility that are in this bill. And she replied, saying, well, we are all going to die, so for heaven's sakes, for heaven's sakes, folks. And you would think that a politician saying that would pretty much immediately be disqualifying for them to ever think about running for office again. But this is 2025. And so instead of trying to maybe apologize for this or explain that she made a mistake, she instead decided to post a video. She was filming herself in a cemetery. And she said, I made an incorrect assumption that everyone in the audience understood that, yes, we are all going to perish from this earth. So I apologize. And I'm really, really glad that I did not have to bring up the subject of the Tooth Fairy as well. And then she added, for those who would like to see eternal and everlasting life, I encourage you to embrace my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. So she started off by saying, everybody dies. When asked about Medicaid cuts, she ended it by invoking the name of Jesus, who I guess she thinks would be in favor of cutting programs that keep people from dying. Danielle, am I wrong?
- [13:41]
Jessa Crispin
No, that sounds 3,000% accurate. The depravity of this regime knows no end. The fact that a sitting senator, in response to her constituents fears about what cuts to Medicaid will do and result in people not being able to get health insurance, which means that then they will go untreated, which means that then they will ultimately die. That her response is, well, everyone dies. But your job as a fucking senator is not supposed to expedite that process, right? As a matter of fact, your job is to ensure that your constituents can live quality lives. That the policies that you pass are about providing people with quality education, water, health care, you know, access to the American dream, not cosplaying the grim reaper, because that's what she was doing. And not only does she not give a shit, but then goes on even further to insult them by saying, I'm sorry, glad I didn't have to talk about the Tooth fairy. Because you equate people being able to have quality health insurance with an imaginary figure that children believe in. So we shouldn't believe in you, you lying sack of shit. And the fact is, the Des Moines Register put a picture of Joni Ernst on the COVID of their paper, and this is not anybody's left wing paper with her quote in black text, huge A1 above the fold, and said, wow, Republicans. It is so grotesque. These are the same people that when Barack Obama was introducing Obamacare as one of their pushbacks to this black man wanting to provide the American people with health care, said that he was going to set up death panels to kill grandma and grandpa. Do you remember that, Andy?
- [15:56]
Ryan Reynolds
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [15:58]
Jessa Crispin
And these people are actually going to be killing millions of people. 8.6, I believe that are potentially going to be kicked off of Medicaid because of Trump's bullshit bill. And she says, well, from a grave site, everyone dies, so buck up. How you vote and still have an R next to your name and vote for these people to be in office is beyond me. But like I've said before, my friend Jonathan Metzl wrote a book called Dying of Whiteness, like, as if he was a soothsayer in knowing exactly what folks are willing to give up just so that they can own the libs, own the blacks, curse out the trans, you know, all so that they can just, I guess, die together. Maybe Joni Mitchell. Maybe Joni Mitchell. Maybe Joni Ernst. Maybe Joni Ernst will start giving her town halls at grave sites, Right? Maybe that is that not too on the nose? Because I don't think it was an accident that she was walking through a cemetery, do you?
- [17:02]
Ryan Reynolds
Oh, no, of course not. I don't know why Joni Mitchell has to catch strays, but I'm sorry, Joni.
- [17:08]
Jessa Crispin
Mitchell, to even put you in the same category.
- [17:13]
Ryan Reynolds
Look, as the producer of as the World Churns, I'd like to be on note that we have nothing against Joni Mitchell. Okay, continue.
- [17:19]
Jessa Crispin
Thank you.
- [17:20]
Ryan Reynolds
Thank you. First of all, if the Democrats do not draw up campaign literature, T shirts, hats, whatever, mentioning Ernst specifically, and then other ones just saying Republicans and making up like fake campaign merchandise with, you know, Ernst 20, 26, we're all going to die. I mean, easiest slam dunk in the world. Which means I think the Democrats have like a 40% chance of doing it.
- [17:52]
Jessa Crispin
40% seems high, Andy.
- [17:55]
Ryan Reynolds
I'm saying this is so, like, they just got the best alley pass in the history of politics. And if they can't slam this one home, I'm going to scream on this podcast. So hold me to that.
- [18:09]
Jessa Crispin
I will.
- [18:10]
Ryan Reynolds
Second thing, the second thing Here is. Ernst is obviously, she's. Look, she's using the Trump playbook, which has become the Republican playbook, which is never apologize and instead mock the people who have a problem with the horrible thing you said. The thing is, yes, that works incredibly well for Trump and it has his whole life. And it particularly has, you know, here in the political sphere. It doesn't always work for the Trump wannabes and for the sycophants in the Republican Party. Whatever quality he has that allows him to get away with that, it's a bit. He's a bit of a unicorn in that regard. Not fully. There are some others who somehow managed to pull this off, but not like he does, where somehow the most ridiculous, offensive, nasty, horrible things he says somehow become strengths for a lot of people. So he knows not to back down. I don't know that Joni Ernst is the kind of politician who can get away with this. Look, we'll see what happens in 20. She's up for reelection in 2026, which ain't that far away. So again, Democrats, please, please do something about this. Do something with this. Make it a goddamn centerpiece of every campaign across the country that this is what Republicans are telling you. We've been saying this podcast for. They want us to die.
- [19:35]
Jessa Crispin
Yep.
- [19:35]
Ryan Reynolds
There's Joni Ernst saying, hey, we're all gonna die. So I'm just, I am praying the Dems come through on this.
- [19:44]
Jessa Crispin
You know, the fact is, I don't think that they will. Right? Because I think that every single time that we are hoping that Democrats utilize something that Republicans say or do, they don't. It should be on billboards everywhere throughout her state. It should be running on ads every single, every single place. Right? This should be the top story that Republicans who once talked about death panels and lied about them now do not care if you live or die. Right? And as a matter of fact, are mocking you, your elderly parents, Right. Your grandparents for being fearful that because they don't have health insurance that they're going to die prematurely.
- [20:28]
Andy Levy
Right?
- [20:28]
Jessa Crispin
Right. And in a lot, with a lot of suffering and pain. Because this is what we're talking about. It is the ability to go to your doctor, the ability to get treated and the ability to have a quality of life. And Republicans don't give a fuck. And you're the ones that are paying for her top notch health care and her family's top notch health care while she's telling you to go take a stroll and go pick out your fucking plot in a cemetery.
- [20:56]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah. Yeah.
- [20:58]
Jessa Crispin
So I just, you know, like ikea, I didn't want to be a part of, you know, the find out because I didn't fuck around and so. But here we all are because 77 million Americans did. So, you know, I don't know, maybe she can start getting tours on Halloween. I have no idea.
- [21:16]
Ryan Reynolds
This is not what they voted for. Remember that? That's what they keep telling us.
- [21:21]
Jessa Crispin
They just voted for racism and transphobia and dirty water and dirty air. I guess.
- [21:26]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah.
- [21:27]
Jessa Crispin
Well, good luck.
- [21:31]
Ryan Reynolds
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying Big Wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just 15amonth.
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Danielle Moody
Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird.
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Ryan Reynolds
Okay, one judgment anyway.
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Danielle Moody
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Ryan Reynolds
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Jessa Crispin
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Ryan Reynolds
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Jessa Crispin
That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more.
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Ryan Reynolds
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- [22:36]
Jessa Crispin
No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax. Folks. I am so excited, so excited to welcome to as the World Churns, one of the wizards behind messaging and a fellow podcaster of words to win by a person who's reporting, who's polling, whose focus groups you know should. Democrats should listen to Anat Shenko Osorio when she says here's the way that you win. Here's some things that you could use in campaigns. This is what the American people want. But somehow they don't. Okay, let's, let's talk. Let's start. Anat Last week New York Times article comes out. It opens up with a quote from you with regard to how voters see Democrats versus Republicans. You set the scene for us because the article went viral last week. Democrats were not too happy about it, but everything that you said in there was the truth. Tell us what animal are Democrats?
- [23:57]
Danielle Moody
So we do all sorts of things in focus groups. We have been in focus groups both with swing and with disaffected Democratic. So drop off voters. For the last four years we've done over 250 groups and in this particular one, we asked a question that we ask often, which is, if you had to liken Democrats to an animal, what animal would it be? We asked the same question of Republicans, and essentially Republicans always get named as an apex predator. And people say that haltingly. It's like, yeah, I don't agree with what they do necessarily, but you gotta give them credit. They get it done. And then with Democrats, traditionally, what we are used to is a slug, a sloth, a turtle, and a tortoise. But in this particular group, which happened in Atlanta, Georgia, with Black men who had voted for Biden in 2020 and in 2024 had not voted and sort of very intentionally made the choice to stay home, there was a man who said, like a deer. And I was like, ooh, a deer. We haven't had a deer before. A deer's new. It's been 250 groups. You know, it's good to get. It's good to get novelty. But then he basically went on to fill in that blank, not so auspiciously for Democrats. With a deer in headlights, basically, you know, the car is coming down the road, you can see the headlights, and you just don't get out of the way. There were some other choice options in that group. I actually just reviewed the transcript, and they were all. I mean, there was another sort of sloth reference, but the first reference was a squirrel. Again, like an animal that just doesn't fight. I mean, that was the thematic. They just don't fight.
- [25:36]
Jessa Crispin
They don't fight. They move incredibly slow, or in the case of a deer in headlights, don't move at all and just get run over. None of the types of animals that a quote unquote resistance party wants to be labeled as, and I use the term sloth on a regular basis. You talk to hundreds, thousands of people to help Democrats get the intel that they need. And I often say that this party will focus group itself to hell. Because, look, we had Tim Walsh, perfect example. Tim Walls gets on the ticket with Kamala Harris. Why? Because he's a plain spoken, white, straight CIS man who, you know what, can still speak with a progressive tone and values and in a folksy way that people get. He coins the fact that these guys, Republicans, they're just fucking weird. They're just weird. You know, I. I don't know what else to say about them, but, like, they don't function like the rest of us. He was beloved. He gets inside the beltway, gets inside the establishment Democratic machine. They pull down the lever, and all of a sudden all of the things that got us to Like Coach Waltz. By the time that the campaign was coming to a conclusion, those things were gone. And now what happens inside of the Democratic machine? Because again, you use focus groups, you talk to people to try and help Democrats get on the right page, get the right messaging, but somehow they still put out on this conveyor belt the same type of candidate, the same type of person that is devoid of any personality and anything that initially got people excited.
- [27:30]
Danielle Moody
Yeah. So first of all, to state what should be obvious, you only get answers to the questions you ask.
- [27:37]
Jessa Crispin
Mm.
- [27:38]
Danielle Moody
And if you plant ideas in voters minds and you don't ask open ended questions, but rather you say, does it upset you if I keep making you use pronouns or does it upset you if Democrats only are, you know, propping up trans girls in sports and they are not attending to other things? And you know, I'm not reciting verbatim the focus group protocols. I, I'm not looking at them. But you can make magical things happen if you ask the right questions. So that's one piece of it. But the other piece of it is that while we are doing qualitative investigations which are what focus groups are and you know, it's not a representative sample and all the caveats that any responsible researcher should provide myself as well, we are also doing quantitative research. And that is where I would argue the difference really comes in. And the reason that the difference really comes in, if you'll allow kind of a, an explanation, is that when you do either a survey or a higher standard randomized controlled trial. Randomized controlled trial is just like drug trials. So basically you have a control sample, they get a placebo and then you have so called treatment tracks where group A only sees ad A, group B only sees ad B and you see where I'm going. And then after the fact you ask them a question like vote choice or you ask them a question like do you disapprove or approve of this thing? Do you like this policy, et cetera. So when we do any of that kind of quantitative testing, by definition we have a captive audience. This is true for me too. It's not like I've discovered a way to do this without a captive audience. So of course you do that because it has, it can teach you things. But you don't go grabbing a hammer thinking it's the best tool to screw in a screw. So when you have in channel testing, which all of this testing is focus groups too, you've recruited people, you've said, come to my thing, take my survey, answer my phone call. You know you're being watched, you know you're being studied and you're made to watch the entire 32nd AD. You're made to read the hundred word text. And so what happens in this kind of, in channel quantitative testing is that it's always the message that sounds more reasonable, has more facts, has more sort of a tone of measured. Well, this policy is inadvisable because actually what it will do and estimates from economists, but in reality, nothing about that is how messages get delivered in the world. There is nothing about that that mimics or mirrors dissemination of messages. Where task number one is to get people to stop scrolling in the first place.
- [30:34]
Jessa Crispin
Right.
- [30:35]
Danielle Moody
And what I keep saying over and over again, which feels like the most uncontroversial thing I say, which is an achievement for me, is that a message that nobody hears cannot convince them, that doesn't feel like a hard thing to understand. And so what happens in this testing is that they go looking for a condition they can't recreate. And then when it comes out into the world and no one hears what they say, then they're like, oh, we have a distribution problem. And we absolutely do have a distribution problem in Fox News and X and the manosphere and all of that. And you know that and I know that. But instead of recognizing that problem in the construction of the messages and recognizing that unless you touch a nerve, you're never going to touch a ner. Unless you say something the bass is going to want to repeat. The middle's never going to hear it because you don't have any other distribution mechanism. Think about the distribution of something like Black Lives Matter. How did that happen? It happened because the bass, the choir first, the activist core and the creators and the originators, they wanted to say it. They wanted to physically wear it on their bodies. They wanted sides with it, they wanted hats. It's exactly the same kind of concept as Make America Great Again as a dissemination vehicle, if you get people to actually wear that on their body or as once upon a time, if you can remember back when people still used Facebook, younger listeners, you just have to believe me. Just, just take it on faith that this was. This was a thing that happened. And during the marriage equality fight, do you remember everybody putting the little rainbow around their avatar? Yep. So that is the perfect example of social proof of dissemination of a message that, yeah, is gonna piss the out of the bigots. They're gonna be real mad. It's not gonna sound measured and reasonable in the way that hospital visitation rights and married filing Jointly sounds sort of measured and reasonable, but it's gonna be the thing that people actually see which reconstructs what they consider to be, quote, unquote, common sense and what everyone believes in the way the world works. And so the essential problem is in how the testing gets done and what questions are asked and how the results are interpreted.
- [33:03]
Jessa Crispin
So when you then take all of that and you hear, for instance, Elise Slotnick, right, Senator, middle of the row, centrists of the centrists who say that Democrats need to be more Alpha, Democrats need to reclaim the fucking flag. These are things that she has said and she is considered now to be by the establishment, the future of the Democratic Party. The average person doesn't know her, right? And yet she was chosen to be the response to Donald Trump's first address. When you hear the things that she is saying, which sound to me very much like mimicking the right and using what works for their base to say, okay, well, all we have to do is cosplay in the same way, and then our base will get behind us in the same way that MAGA has organically gotten behind Donald Trump. What is your response to that and the way that Democrats are lifting her up as like the new beacon on the Hill?
- [34:12]
Danielle Moody
Yeah, so many responses. First of all, in reality, in voter land and in disaffected voter land and swing voter land, the Democrats that are actually top of mind for people, and I mean low information, low engagement, tuned out, are actually AOC to a lesser extent. Jasmine Crockett. That's who they actually know, that's who they admire. And that includes, interestingly, young men, including young men of various races who are sort of one foot in the manosphere, one foot in the AOC camp, because they consider her to be a straight talker and authentic and to live her values and to mean what she says and to be sort of, maybe I don't agree with her. I mean, it's not unlike how I characterize their response, swing voters response to Republicans. I may not agree with everything they do, but you gotta hand it to them, at least they get something done. It's like, I may not agree with everything that she says, but I can tell she actually means it. I can tell she's actually saying what she believes in the way that she believes it. And I respect that. So what I would say to that is that, first of all, rather than actually lift up and champion the voices, whether they be an elected office or not, elected office like you, that already have authentic engagement and listeners and actually understand that power. I mean, this is why, and I'll come back to Slotkin in a second, why this entire discourse around a Joe Rogan of the left is so ridiculous. Because the reason why Joe Rogan functions for them is because they don't muzzle their manosphere people. They don't randomize control trial. You can only say this hundred words. You're not allowed to say that. Don't say that phrase, that's too incendiary, that's not going to work. They basically are like, okay, you're more or less on our program. You can say whatever the fuck you want to, because it's not up to us anyway. Because they understand again, that the choir has to want to sing from the songbook. Now enter your question about Slotkin. The question is, who is actually the choir? Who is actually the set of people who are going to be motivated, mobilized to be in repetition, to be engaged in order to actually confront this authoritarian threat? And so it's just politics 101 that you need to be against your opposition, not the people that your opposition reviles. Because as soon as you are adding to the discourse that it is the immigrants or it is the queer people or it is the trans people or it is, you know, inner city crime and safety and whatever, as soon as you are parroting those talking points, what you're doing is you are lending credence to their story. And for conflicted voters who very much can go either way, they are capable of believing either thing. I call them the good point voters because they're like, good point, but yeah, good point, but also good point. You're basically just helping the right sucker their message.
- [37:12]
Jessa Crispin
Yes.
- [37:13]
Danielle Moody
Spread their message. And so the thing that Slotkin has right is yes, Democrats are perceived as being too weak. I agree with her. And the reason that they are perceived as being too weak is that they appear to have no actual durable values. And I think that when, I mean, there are so many for instances to hold up, and this is a painful one, but in the moment during the Harris campaign, when she was on Bret Baer, right, she like went on right wing, whatever, and he said, you know, you're accused of just every time you go out, you have the same stump speech, you have the same stump speech, you keep repeating the same thing over and over. And she said something to the effect of, well, that's called message discipline. And people were applauding her. My response to that is, why are you revealing the sausage making? You're supposed to have message discipline, not tell people that you have message discipline, right? The answer is, well, yeah, Brett, I have a set of unerring, unchangeable values. I believe in every single person's freedom. I. I believe that equality for all doesn't come with an asterisk or exceptions. I believe that people who work for a living ought to earn a living. I believe that on Monday, I believe it on Tuesday, I believe it on Wednesday. I'm going to believe it the rest of the week and all the weeks to come. Of course, I keep saying the same thing. I believe what I am saying. Like you don't say, I memorize some talking points and I'm really good and so I can recite them to you because that is repellent to people. Because basically, you know, imagine your favorite actor in a movie being like, you know why I'm so good at this? I like, you have to play the part. You don't tell people, oh, I read a script and I memorized it and.
- [38:59]
Andy Levy
This is what it says.
- [39:01]
Danielle Moody
And so it's sort of that instinct to reveal the sausage making, which is just completely and totally mind boggling. And I'll take it a step farther. This is what is just absolutely infuriating. So let's say you're a person. This is not a me person because this is not how I feel. And also, I don't think there's evidence to support this claim. But you are a person who believes to the depths of your soul that voters chief beef with Democrats is that they're too woke.
- [39:31]
Jessa Crispin
That's untrue.
- [39:32]
Danielle Moody
I'm happy to explain why it's untrue, but let's say that's your internal makeup. Why on God screeners? Why, Danielle, would you be shouting from the rooftops like Rahm Emanuel, like Slotkin, like all the rest of these centrist peddlers. You know what voters hate about Democrats? Voters hate Democrats. They hate that Democrats are too woke. Voters are extraordinarily, for the most part, low information, especially disaffected voters. They don't even know what woke is. They don't know what pronouns are. They've never heard Latin A. They don't even know that this debate is occurring until Democratic commentators repeat it.
- [40:18]
Jessa Crispin
Over and over and over again.
- [40:21]
Danielle Moody
The analogy that I draw is imagine if you were Achilles best friend and you were like, I love Achilles. He's my boo. I'm not gonna let anything happen to him. So I'm gonna go on podcasts and television to tell people that his weak spot is his heel because I love him so much that I need to tell people. And again, I want to underscore that's not my analysis. So I hope that that is clear. But if it were my analysis, I wouldn't be shouting from the rooftops that this is what voters dislike. It is mind boggling. And so the question is, why are they doing that?
- [40:53]
Jessa Crispin
You know, and that, that is the question and we're going to have to leave it there today. But that, but that's the question, right? Is you present, these are the ways that the voters are thinking, this is what the voters want. You're giving the voters the information that the right wing wants them to have instead of what it is that you're actually offering. I continue to say you're not going to win this battle from a place of reaction. You actually need to develop an imagination about what you want. It isn't enough to just say who I'm not. People actually want to know who you are.
- [41:28]
Danielle Moody
It's because when you have one consultant, and I know because I've been in these rooms, who presents to you robust, incontrovertible evidence that what the majority, and I'll go out on a limb and say the super majority of voter eligible Americans want is they want elected leaders who actually give a shit about working people. They want people who will institute as Harris during the first six weeks of her campaign proposed to do until she was told, no, no, no price controls. They want a hike of the minimum wage. They want socialized medicine. They want universal single payer health care. They do not want a for profit, let's put your organs on sale and buy and sell life. They want corporations put under control. They want billionaires kicked out of politics. They want an end to corruption. That is what the majority of voters actually desire. And so when Democrats are presented with, hey, here's what voters actually would like. They would actually like you to walk your talk and be with and for working people of every color, background, gender identity, sexuality, accent, faith. And they want you to authentically stand up for values. And then you have another consultant who's like, actually, you know what, all you gotta do is just shit talk some black people, shit talk some queer people, shit talk some trans people, maybe throw some immigrants under a bus. A lot of Democrats are like, you know what, I like option B better because option B is what's going to keep me tight with my donors. That's what, that's it.
- [43:07]
Jessa Crispin
That's it.
- [43:07]
Danielle Moody
That's the answer.
- [43:09]
Jessa Crispin
And that, thank you so much. I'm like, we are going to have to do part two because there is so much there. Because yeah, Consultant B is who they're going to go with. I appreciate you my friend so much for making time for us on as the World Churns. And we'll going we're going to continue having this conversation because this is the conversation. If we're ever going to get out of the manosphere, the maga sphere and more, we will leave it there today. Appreciate you.
- [43:41]
Danielle Moody
Thank you. Appreciate you.
- [43:44]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [43:46]
Andy Levy
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Ryan Reynolds
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Danielle Moody
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Ryan Reynolds
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Danielle Moody
One of your assistant's assistants switch you.
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Ryan Reynolds
To Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com.
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Danielle Moody
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- [44:15]
Ryan Reynolds
The Redfin app you'll know the moment your next place hits the market. Whether you're looking to buy your dream home or rent a sweet apartment, give Redfin your gotta have it wish list of property features and you'll receive real time notifications tailored just for you, ready to see it up close and personal scheduling a tour is just a tap away. Don't wait to find your perfect match. Download the Redfin app and start searching today. Jessica Crispin was a pioneer of literary blogging. As the founder of bookslutter, is the current publisher of the Substack the Culture We Deserve, has written for the New York Times, the Washington Post and the Chicago Sun Times, among other publications, and is the author of four books, including the Fantastic what Is Wrong with Men out today. She joins me now to tell us about it. Jessa, thanks so much for being here.
- [45:05]
Andy Levy
I'm so thrilled that you asked me.
- [45:07]
Ryan Reynolds
So I remember when I first heard about what is Wrong with Men and I saw the subtitle, which is Patriarchy, the Crisis of Masculinity and how of course, Michael Douglas films explain everything. I was instantly like, I have to read this. So obviously I'm curious as to what made you think I have to write this.
- [45:27]
Andy Levy
Well, it was the pandemic and I had to fill the hours somehow. And for whatever reason I started filling them with Michael Douglas movies. I found them very comforting in that particular moment. Yeah, I, you know, as a child we had HBO and the the Romancing the Stone was on eternal repeat on HBO in the 80s. So I was thinking there was so much discourse during the pandemic about the crisis in masculinity, about toxic masculinity, about cancel culture and all this stuff, and instead of being an escape from that subject matter, I found it kind of nicely conducive to thinking about it in a different way than in the this man is bad, this man is irredeemable.
- [46:22]
Ryan Reynolds
Right.
- [46:22]
Andy Levy
You know, et cetera, et cetera. So that's basically how it happened. Yeah, yeah.
- [46:27]
Ryan Reynolds
And one of the things you write in the intro is that so many of these characters, the Michael Douglas characters in the 80s and 90s, you wrote that they dive into a state of frenzy and exasperation, shaking their heads, head waving their arms to say, look at me, look at what they are doing to me. And you point out that there's a word for this behavior, and that word is hysterical. And that is a word that has historically been female coded.
- [46:53]
Andy Levy
Right, of course, yeah. I mean, hysteria has been used to dismiss the complaints of women for thousands of years now. The Greeks were using it to say, oh, she's not upset, it's just that her uterus has dislodged itself and is now wandering around her body. You know, the typical kind of problems that ladies find themselves in. But yeah, it's supposed to be an indicator that you don't have a legitimate concern. You are, you're over responding, you're overreacting, you're exaggerating, you're performing. And so it seemed like, you know, Michael Douglas was on all of these, you know, the sexiest men of the year list and all of that kind of thing. And yet in almost every movie, he's waving his arms about, his eyes are wild, like he's foaming at the mouth, you know, like it's really a kind of consistent performance of being unhinged. And I thought it was interesting also that he was constantly being referred to as like a representative of a new masculinity. Like, what does it mean that our representative of a new masculinity, at least in the 80s and 90s, is a man who can't stop screaming about being taken advantage of, of being misunderstood, of being, you know, oppressed in some way. It was, it was interesting to think about.
- [48:15]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah. And I guess it turns out that hysteria is good actually, when, when it's a man who's, who's experiencing it. But, but everything you said really does. It fits so well with so many of those movies. Fatal Attraction, War of the Roses, bas, instinct, disclosure, falling down. The list is like nearly endless. So let's start with Fatal Attraction. And for viewers or listeners who don't know, in this movie, Michael Douglas is a lawyer. He's married to Ann Archer, and while she's away, he has a one night stand with Glenn Close. And as far as he's concerned, pretty much that's that. But Glenn Close's character wants more and she ends up stalking him and infamously boiling his daughter's bunny on the stove, among other things. And in the end, Ann Archer kills her. One of the things you point out in the book is that really Glenn Close, in this movie, she's not playing by the rules as understood by Michael Douglas. Because the rules say that, hey, Michael Douglas is this rising star, this up and coming lawyer, and as a successful man, he's entitled to have an affair. As you write, the king has courtesans, the big name lawyer has mistresses. But Glenn Close is like, no, that's. I don't want to just be a one night stand mistress.
- [49:29]
Andy Levy
Yeah, exactly. And it's so disruptive to his role as a big successful man if she will not accept her own role as like a disposable woman, as a woman who gets fucked and disposed of in some way. And you know, this is late 80s, you know, this is the time of Clarence Thomas. This is the time, you know, right before Bill Clinton. There is a kind of more openness to discussing these things and a rejection of shame for the women who have been mistreated, abused, and then tried to just sort of shuffle them off into the margins. And men found that really threatening. And I think that one of the indicators of that was that Fatal Attraction was an enormous success. Like it was such a. Oh yeah, Bunny Boiler entered the lexicon. You know, Glenn Close became this within Alex became this immediately identifiable icon. And I think it really kind of got under people's skin, men's skin probably more than others. But it got under people's skins for a reason, which is that gender roles were changing in such a way that we're mostly being talked about in this way of like female liberation, but not talking about what that liberation, how that was disrupting, inconveniencing, disturbing men. At least not in a kind of honest conversation.
- [51:04]
Ryan Reynolds
Well, and there's a really excellent point that you make in the book, that the men that Michael Douglas played in these movies, they weren't necessarily, they weren't bigots, they, they didn't hate women, they weren't explicitly anti feminist, they weren't Rubes. They were sophisticated guys. But. And here I'm going to quote you. They also didn't seem to think that the feminist movement and the changes happening in the political and cultural reality of women had anything to do with them. And then you write. And this sentence really kind of blew my mind a little bit. You wrote. And in that way, they were kind of a cinematic stand in for a lot of men of the time, liberal, tolerant and clueless. And what this evoked for me was the kind of liberal men who now say, you know, well, me too was good, but it went too far.
- [51:47]
Andy Levy
Sure, yeah, yeah. I mean, of course, that, that's. That's just kind of the tail end of these conversations that have been happening for such a long time. It's like it's a kind of obliviousness to the idea that if you are in society with somebody, if you are in relationship, if you are living in a house with somebody and they are going. Undergoing fundamental changes, the idea that that wouldn't affect you in any way or that you can continue to live your life in a way that lines up with your previous expectations. I mean, it's kind of funny to look at it in that way of just like the sense that, yeah, this isn't going to really have anything to do with me. I don't need to change my idea of what I'm going to be like as a husband, as a father. I can kind of just figure out things as a. As they go along. I don't need to do anything, research, I don't need to read anything. I don't need to think about this for more than five seconds at a time. I'll just figure it out as I go along. And you know, men's culture, however you want to define that, men's magazines, books, TV shows, movies, whatever, kind of just sort of solidified that idea of whatever was going on with women didn't really have anything to do with men. And I feel like men's culture left men at a disadvantage because then they, as individuals had to navigate this culture completely baffling space. And it's not like when you turned on tv, you had role models, you had philosophers or a sort of male version of a feminist thinker. You really just had, you know, like the schlubby, disappointing husband who's the butt of the joke and that kind of thing, which are characters created by and written by men. Right, right. And that's been the kind of one of the complaints of the younger male. I don't wanna say fascists. But they're all kind of, you know, leaning that way. The Andrew Tate fans and that sort of thing, you know, that's what, you know, look at how women humiliate us with these sitcoms. It's like those men are writing these things, like, we're not doing this, like, this is not our fault. This is your guys problem. You need to work it out among yourselves.
- [53:58]
Ryan Reynolds
And, and in a way it's, it's almost, it's like men writing these characters. It's almost like an excuse. It's almost like, you know, oh, look at me, I'm a small bean. I, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm just a man. I don't understand all this stuff that's going on around me. And, and it, and it, it, it's sort of, in a way, if you think about it, it is, it's sort of an excuse. Like I, I just want my beer and my couch and, and my tv.
- [54:24]
Andy Levy
Yeah, yeah. I mean, Fatal Attraction has this kind of funny subplot where Michael Douglas is representing a publisher who is putting out a tell all memoir about a mistress of a power, is trying to do everything he can to shut it down. And Michael Douglas is, you know, representing the woman who has been mistreated by this politician. He doesn't seem to take that as like a warning sign. The gods are screaming at him like, look what is going to happen to you. And he's like, it's gonna be fine. I'll figure it out. Yeah.
- [55:01]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah. All right, so talk about Nick, the character that Douglas plays in Basic Instinct. How does he fit into the thesis of the book? And how does a sweater play into it? It.
- [55:10]
Andy Levy
Oh, this sweater. I've had, I've sent so many texts about this sweater, but it's such a.
- [55:17]
Ryan Reynolds
Great section of the book. I was laughing hysterically. But all, well, there's that word. But also I was like, this is totally true.
- [55:26]
Andy Levy
Yeah, yeah. So Nick is a detective who is investigating Sharon Stone for the murder of her boyfriend. And she is rich and fabulous and beautiful and young and bisexual. So she doesn't really need men. She kind of lives in this space outside of patriarchy, which she can do because she's extremely wealthy. And Michael Douglas plays this kind of representative of a middle class, disappointing male existence. You know, he falls asleep with the TV on in his recliner. He goes to a job that he hates and resents and isn't even good at. Right. Like he's a cop and he killed some tourists.
- [56:11]
Ryan Reynolds
Right.
- [56:12]
Andy Levy
Trying to chase after his Suspect. And he thinks because he desires Sharon Stone that, you know, all he has to do is, you know, whip out this terrible sweater and meet her in the club, and she'll just fall at his feet. And the sweater is like. It's such a representative of sort of men's cluelessness, but also hostility to pleasure, to beauty, to anything good in the world. Because it looks bad on him. It looks uncomfortable. It has, like, this upsettingly deep vh. So, like, his chest hair is. Which, you know, he's in his late 40s at the time, so that's kind of being exposed. It's a terrible color that kind of makes him look kind of greenish. And everyone else at the club is. Is dressed beautifully and is interested in the music, is doing drugs, is having a really great time, and he's just there kind of walking around in his ugly sweater like, you know, who's going home with me? You know, it's wonderful. It's so good.
- [57:17]
Ryan Reynolds
It's absolutely amazing. I have, like. I haven't seen that movie in decades, but as soon as I got to that part in the book, I was like, oh, my fucking God, that deep V sweater. Like, I instantly remembered it and remembered.
- [57:29]
Andy Levy
The scenes of the mind.
- [57:31]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah. And just remembered the scenes of him walking, you know, like, through the club in it, exactly how you described. It's just unbelievable.
- [57:39]
Andy Levy
Yeah.
- [57:42]
Ryan Reynolds
So let me jump to, I guess, maybe Falling down, which is a movie in which Douglas plays a divorced, unemployed defense worker. He finds himself in traffic. He's trying to get to his daughter's birthday party, and the traffic is too much. He loses it. He ends up going on a violent rampage. And in essence, he becomes hysterical. And throughout the movie, he overreacts to every perceived slight against him. And as you put it, it's essentially the story of misplaced rage. And that just seems so pertinent for men to this day.
- [58:16]
Andy Levy
Sure, yeah. I mean, the first sort of encounter he has is with a Korean store owner of the convenience store that's charging more money for the soda than he thinks is appropriate. And so he trashes the shop. And there's this really kind of weird line where he's like, you know, we invaded. Well, he doesn't say this, but he sort of like, you know, after all we did for your country, this is how you pay us back or whatever. And it's like, well, we invaded your nation. We dropped bombs on it. We did medical experiments in. Through the military. So why aren't you. Why aren't you happier to be in the beautiful United States of America.
- [58:57]
Ryan Reynolds
Right.
- [58:58]
Andy Levy
But as he kind of walks through the city, it's every kind of demographic that Trump now uses as an excuse for why men are falling behind. Because, you know, because of the immigrants, because of the. The gang warfare or whatever, because of the homosexuals, because of the homeless. And at each encounter, he kind of. He's supposed to be the figure of sanity, of civilization, of stability, and yet he's the one who's entering all of these different places that do not belong to him, causing trouble and violence and expressing surprise that things that people don't immediately sort of cater to him. It's a kind of a strange movie to think about.
- [59:43]
Jessa Crispin
About.
- [59:44]
Andy Levy
Because it's so popular in. In. In certain. You know, like the Foo Fighters recreated it for a music video.
- [59:52]
Ryan Reynolds
Sure.
- [59:52]
Andy Levy
You see homages to it all the time. You see people referencing it as. As, like, a really great movie about what it's like to live in city. It's a. But it's a really. I find it, like a really abhorrent but also insightful movie.
- [60:06]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah.
- [60:07]
Andy Levy
So it's tricky. It's tricky to think about, it's tricky to write about, but ultimately, it's. It definitely has some sort of understanding of this impulse to violence that comes out of a sense of indignation and a sense of. I think there are two sort of encounters where he refers to himself as the customer. I'm the customer. You know, why am I not being. Why is the world not meeting my expectations if I'm putting money into this city, into this restaurant or whatever? And I think that that mentality is very strong in the United States right now in the sense of, like, I pay my taxes. I, you know, am paying $8 for a terrible sugar coffee at Starbucks. And this sense of entitlement and indignation that anybody would inconvenience you, disappoint you. I think that's strong in the American heart right now.
- [61:02]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah, for sure. And, of course, it has the classic line at the end where Douglas is sort of, you know, cornered by a copy, and he utters this sort of disbelieving line, I'm the bad guy. After he has, you know, gone through this rampage of destruction, killed a guy and killed a guy, and he still can't believe, you know, that he's being treated like the bad guy. And that just continues to resonate to this day. And it's why I think the movie, at least for me, I sort of hated it when it came out. It's grown on me. Only because if you can get past the surface of it and realize that this is a portrayal of sort of almost of, like, white privilege, even though this guy is not. He's unemployed, he's divorced. But like you said, he goes into all these spaces that are not his and can't understand why he is looked at as sort of the other and the outsider, because he's a white man. He belongs in every space. And.
- [62:06]
Andy Levy
Yeah, yeah.
- [62:07]
Ryan Reynolds
So, yeah, there's just. There's a lot more to it than I realized, you know, when I was much younger and first saw it. Okay. The book covers a lot more movies and many more aspects of masculinity than I have time to talk about. I only have, like, a minute left. And I've got to ask you about Disclosure, which is the 94 film in which Douglas character Tom is passed over for promotion in favor of Demi Moore's Meredith, who then proceeds to sexually harass him and then claims that he sexually harassed her. And as you wrote in the book, it's a film not meant to entertain or enlighten, but to rant loudly at you up close, the spittle misting your face as you try to turn away. This is almost explicitly a men's rights manifesto, isn't it?
- [62:52]
Andy Levy
Oh, absolutely. And it's such an encapsulation of, like, grievance culture of, no, you are right to be scared. You are right to be angry. They are taking your life away from you. They are putting too many expectations upon you. Everything that's happening that you think is unfair is completely unfair, and you should just stay there in your resentment for the rest of your life. Yeah, it's a really kind of vile. It's a vile movie, but it does have a chase scene in virtual reality, maybe the slowest chasing that's ever been filmed. So it does have some pleasures to it.
- [63:32]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah. That is a movie that, unlike Falling down, has not grown on me or redeemed itself upon further watch. It is just Michael Crichton, like you said, the spittle. That's such a great way to describe it, because it is really just. Everything that is wrong with the men's rights movement is encapsulated in this movie. Jessa, thanks so much for being here. This book is so much fun. It's called what Is Wrong With Men? It is out today. Definitely go out and read it. Like I said, there's so much stuff we weren't able to talk about in this 20 minutes, and it was just endlessly fascinating. Jessa, thanks again.
- [64:12]
Andy Levy
Thank you so much.
- [64:15]
Jessa Crispin
Well, Andy, it's the start of another godforsaken week here and we're all gonna die. America, how would you like to kick it off with your. That guy?
- [64:29]
Ryan Reynolds
I like how it's barely into a new month and we're already like, oh my God, this month sucks. It's like, like two days in, as we're recording this, my fuck that guy is. I'm, I'm actually not sure who it is. So let me tell the story and then, and then we can decide. So the President gets something called the pdb, the President's Daily Brief. And it's a thing where intelligence agents, intelligence chiefs, inform the President about what's going on around the world. Sort of an important thing. According to NBC News, in this same period that we're in now with Donald Trump from, from inauguration till the end of May, Joe Biden received 90 of these PDBs, Barack Obama received 63, and even Trump in his first term received 55. So they happen fairly often. But according to NBC News, since his inauguration, this time Donald Trump has only received the PDB 14 times. 14 times. So this is, you know, it's generally, the PDB is a document, you know, that's presented by these intel people. It has charts and graphs. It has facts and figures, stuff like that. So apparently Tulsi Gabbard, who is somehow, I'm still not sure how, is our national Intelligence Director. She's trying to figure out ways to get Donald Trump to look at these more often. And one the of, one of the things that people have come up with is to make it look and feel like a Fox News broadcast. This is according to four different people who told NBC News this. A White House spokesman denies this, but let's be honest, we know it's true. There's talk of even hiring a Fox News producer to produce the PDB and to have one of the networks personalities actually deliver it on camera. It would be part of the brief and then Trump could watch it whenever he wanted. It's mind blowing. One of the people said that, oh, maybe they, in addition to having, you know, graphics like charts and pictures, there could be maps with animated representations of exploding bombs similar to a video game. And so I'm looking at all this and you know, so originally my. Fuck that guy. I'm thinking that's Tulsi Gabby. And then I'm like, it's not though. Like, I sort of don't blame her on this one for trying to get the President to actually look at the, you know, the intelligence briefing, the Presidential Daily Brief, more often than 14 times in, you know, seven months or however many months it's been. So I guess my fucking five years. Has it only been five months? Oh, since inauguration? Yeah. I was thinking November. Oh, my God. So it's not Tulsi Gabbard. The more I think about it, you know, she sucks and should not be in that job, but in this instance, she is actually trying to figure out how to get information in front of this, you know, addled old man who can only consume things that look like his favorite cable news networks. And so I guess ultimately my fuck that guy is. Is Donald Trump here for being him?
- [68:06]
Jessa Crispin
Why don't we just turn it into a fucking cartoon do, you know, and just sit him in front of there with, like, his lunchables and a fucking Coke and hope that he ingests it that way? I like the. Like, my head hurts from the stupidity. It really, really does. Like, they have taken everything that used to mean something in this country, namely the position of president, and turned it into a fucking joke and buffoonery. Like, that's what this is. So, yeah, well done. Well done. Fuck those guys. Fuck him. Fuck all of them for creating Donald Trump and then creating the conditions that allow him to succeed as president, because that's what they've done. This is what enabling looks like. Like, oh, you know what? He's an alcoholic, so why don't we create a bar inside, right? So he doesn't have to get up. He doesn't really have to think so hard. Why don't we chew up the news and spit it in his mouth like a fucking bird?
- [69:10]
Andy Levy
Yeah.
- [69:12]
Jessa Crispin
It's only the beginning of the week.
- [69:14]
Ryan Reynolds
I know. And now I'm gonna have that image.
- [69:17]
Jessa Crispin
In my head of Tulsi Gabbard chewing up news and spitting it in Donald Trump's mouth. You're welcome.
- [69:21]
Ryan Reynolds
You didn't need to say it again.
- [69:23]
Jessa Crispin
I just wanted to say it so you had the image.
- [69:26]
Ryan Reynolds
Didn't I already had the image? Thank you very much. Now you've just imprinted it. So who is your. Fuck that guy? To start off this glorious month of June in the year of our Lord.
- [69:41]
Jessa Crispin
2025, I hope that when whoever is taking these audio files and video files out of the ashes of this country, I hope they get a good laugh when they're, like, trying to explain this to future generations, and they're just like, these people sound insane. Not us, just what we're reporting on. So, you know, Andy, it's great to be a drug addict so long as you are rich. So long as you are white and CIS and hetero, it is fantastic. You do nothing but fail up, right? You can explode as many rockets as you want and they'll still talk about the explosion in legacy media by leading with the fact that you are a billionaire and a genius when talking about your failures. So who am I talking about?
- [70:36]
Ryan Reynolds
I'm starting to figure out who you're talking about.
- [70:38]
Jessa Crispin
Yeah, who am I talking about? Oh, Elon Musk, who is now being reported as once having had an occasional drug use to now just being a full on addict to the point where his ketamine use is allegedly interfering with his bladder, which is a known side effect of overusing ketamine. There allegedly are pictures of his pill box, which he travels with, that have 20 pills in there, including Adderall, mushrooms, Ketamine and other psychedelics. Now you would say to yourself, well, that couldn't possibly be. And I just want to remind you of the imagery of Elon Musk on a stage with a live chainsaw that he was wielding over his head. I want to remind you of the press events that have happened at the White House where he's the only person inside wearing black sunglasses, having not come from an eye exam. I want to remind you of the fact that he has talked about his own drug use on a regular basis on podcasts before he got the keys to all of our tax information and data and before he created the agency that would destroy 100,000 jobs and also ensure that USAID would be shut down. And now we're learning that it can be, can maybe, you know, just a straight line to tens of thousands of people's deaths of the most vulnerable in this world. Also that Elon Musk could become a trillionaire drug addict. It is, I, like, I, I'm running out of words. Yeah, I'm running out of words. But all I know is that there are, I'm certain, millions of black and brown and queer people that are in prison right now for their drug addictions. But you know, they're poor and they don't have the lack of melanin to be named as a, as a genius and for that kind of drug addiction to be overlooked because you know what, those people that are in jail probably hurt themselves and their families. Elon Musk, however, is destroying an entire country and is still being applaud. The other day Stephanie Rule on MSNBC.
- [73:20]
Danielle Moody
Said, yeah, I guess I do have.
- [73:21]
Jessa Crispin
To agree with the fact that he's a genius. Says fucking who? Yeah, who cares? He's a drug Addict?
- [73:28]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah.
- [73:28]
Jessa Crispin
Doesn't matter. It's not as if, you know, there'll be an investigation. It's not as if he'll go to jail. It's not as if anything will happen to him. But these are the reports. And so for that reason, Elon Musk and so many other reasons, and for all of the people that's continued to fucking applaud this man and lift him up as if he is some type of godsend is my. Fuck that guy. To start out the week.
- [73:53]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah. Look, it's one thing to do some drugs and have it just sort of be like, that's kind of your business. It's another thing to be rolling on Ketamine or, Or Adderall or Ketamine and Adderall while you are making decisions that literally affect tens, if not hundreds of millions of Americans and people around the world. And I really don't think, you know, because I've seen some pushback on this from people who are like, oh, the left is very much, you know, they're fans of decriminalizing all drugs until you, you know, but now they're, they're mad at Elon Musk for taking drugs. It's like, no, that's not the same thing. Like, there are things you think should not land people in jail for 10 or 20 years, but that doesn't mean you necessarily think it's a great idea for them to be doing it, and particularly for someone, again, in the position that Elon Musk is in to be, you know, carrying pillboxes around with him wherever he travels because he can't cope with. Cope with a reality in which, you know, everybody hates him and he's basically a sham. And I, I mean, look, I get it. I feel that way, too. I don't need a pillbox. You know, I just, I, I just, you know, I, I, I, I sit on my couch and I, I have a, I have a good cry and, and then I'm good. You know, man up, Elon. My God. But no, it's just, there's no defending this is what I'm saying. And it's just. It has absolutely nothing to do with being, like, you know, in favor of decriminalizing drugs. So, yeah, fuck that guy.
- [75:47]
Danielle Moody
Every idea starts with a problem.
- [75:49]
Jessa Crispin
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