Andy Levy (6:54)

No. I'm just, I think that it's fucking wild that she would send Kristi Noem. The Department of Homeland Security. What, what, what does, what role does the Department of Homeland Security have to do no idea with.

Anthony Fisher (7:08)

Right.

Tom Deliberido (7:08)

Other than the fact that they want to defund FEMA and they wanted to fund the National Weather Service and they wanted to fund all these things and they want all, you know, any and all power to be concentrated as close a level to Donald Trump as it can be. And all of this is, you know, the disaster planning was bad, the disaster response from the federal government is bad. And like you said, Danielle, unfortunately, we're going to be seeing a lot of this going forward.

Andy Levy (7:38)

I mean, you know, what is going to end up happening inside of the United States is what happens in underdeveloped, purposefully underdeveloped nations when catastrophic traffic events hit is that they'll look to other countries for aid because they don't have the infrastructure, they don't have the agencies, and they don't have the people power in order to be able to a alert their people avoid this kind of disasters and then have the infrastructure and money to rebuild. That is what FEMA is for. That is what the National Weather Service is for. The weather service provides alerts so that people can take the kind of necessary action and caution based on the alerts that they receive. And then FEMA is there for emergency aid when catastrophic events happen. And what do we know is that these catastrophic natural disasters, or I will not call them natural disasters, they are climate disasters, will continue to happen and they will continue to strengthen and they will continue to cost more money that Donald Trump's regime will not pay for. And so you're going to be driving through parts of this country like you do in underdeveloped nations, where you will see whole towns decimated and grown over with because guess what? They're not going to be rebuilt. And these things, these, these climate disasters happen in red areas and red states and they are spreading elsewhere because they're, we're in unpredictable weather patterns and unpredictable seasons now. But you know that the, the core is going to be in these areas that overwhelmingly voted for Donald Trump. And they are going to now bear the brunt of the fact that lives are going to be lost, millions of dollars of infrastructure is going to be lost and there is going to be no support to rebuild. And so all they're going to do is point blame. And guess what? That's not going to bring these children back and it's not going to create policies that would make incidents like this happen less.

Tom Deliberido (9:44)

I'll just close by saying that it's important to note that when Democrats are in power, it used to be also the case when Republicans were in power, but it's not the case now. But when Democrats are in power, FEMA aid, all of that stuff goes to wherever it's needed. With Donald Trump in power, not so much the case. He's already made noises about not sending aid to, quote, unquote, blue states when disasters hit there. So it's important, I think, to note the politicization of these climate events and these disasters that is being done right now under the Trump administration. And the reason it's so important is a, that they're talking about doing it. But also, Danielle, I'm sure you remember when North Carolina needed federal money, needed FEMA for the floods that happened there in places that we never thought we'd see floods because they were so far inland. Joe Biden sent the aid, but what we got was a bunch of crackpots on the right pretending he didn't and claiming that they were not sending FEMA to this area when in fact they were friends.

Andy Levy (10:48)

Of all of the this horrific tragedy that we are unpacking, there is now a new conspiracy theory, and it's not even a conspiracy. For months now, we have been told by MAGA that they got all the receipts, they got all the binders, they got all the information, they got the Epstein files, they got the client list. Pam Bondi, as a matter of fact, in February told us it was sitting on her desk, said that the Epstein files were sitting on her desk. They have told us for so long that they got everything. They posed with binders for folks that had Epstein files on them. And today, drum roll, please. They are offering absolutely nothing. According to Pam Bondi's Department of Justice, according to Cash Patel's FBI, guess what? Oh, there was no client list. There was no murder of Jeffrey Epstein. There was no blackmail, apparently, just Lane Maxwell, who is Epstein's number two person, is serving 20 years in prison for sex trafficking. No one to anyone. So that is essentially where we Are. Which is funny because in Mike Wolf's book Fire and Fury, and all of the hours upon hours of interviews, time that he did with Jeffrey Epstein, who was Donald Trump's best friend, who gave inside information into the first Trump administration and the climate of chaos that Donald Trump created, you had Donald Trump on tape himself talking about him and Jeffrey Epstein have the same, quote, taste in girls. And now all of a sudden they got nothing. Andy, is it possible that they got nothing or is it possible that they have everything and Donald Trump's little tiny fingerprints are all over it and there's no way for them to scrub him out of there and just release what it is that they have because like a fucking boomerang, it would come back and hit him square in the ass.

Tom Deliberido (12:58)

I saw this Azio story, I guess it was late last night in the midst of my insomnia, I don't know, one, two in the morning. And I immediately, I just started like wheezing because it was, it was so funny to hear this after everything they've been saying. And in particular, as you noted, Pam Bondi literally said, she literally said the files were on her desk. So I am very curious to see when she will be hauled before Congress to explain what she meant by that in light of this new report that there are basically no such piles. And I'm being sarcastic obviously, because she ain't going to be hauled before Congress, but it is absolutely amazing. It is the people that, I don't want to say they ran on Epstein as an issue, but it was like a lot of Naga people out there, you know, truly believed that this was a democratic thing. This was a, you know, a pedophile ring with a lot of bit name Democrats involved in it. And that there was this list out there that had been kept hidden from the American people by the Biden crime family. And some of those people include people who are now officials in the Trump administration. Cash Patel, what's his name? Dan Bongino or whatever. Bongino, yeah. Were out there on their podcasts and whatever or as guests on people's podcasts, talking about how they were going to get to the bottom of this. They were going to make sure all this stuff got leaked and they have, you know, they've been backpedaling on this. And it's absolutely wild. Of all the things with all the shit going on in the world, the one thing I did not expect to see at 2 in the morning last night was an Axios story saying, oh, the Fed, the Justice Department, the FBI are now saying, oh, there's nothing to see here. There's other stuff that we've been talking about. All the stuck we said, we literally said we had. I mean, this is right up there with McCarthy holding up the. You know, I have here in my hands a list of members of the Communist Party that was, you know, like a blank sheet of paper. It is, it is absolutely unbelievable and just wild to see this, you know.

Andy Levy (15:20)

And I'll say, look, when it came to Jeffrey Epstein and this pedophile circus and network that he had created, this is probably one of the most bipartisan things that have ever happened because I am certain that there are just as many Democrats as there are Republicans that are on this list. And that's the problem. That's the problem. The problem is that they were led to believe, these conspiracy theorists that, oh, it was Democrats and you're covering up and blah, blah. Even though Donald Trump has spent time and money trying to scrub his relationship in images, videos, all of these things with Jeffrey Epstein over the years. And I'll tell you what, something funny today too. CBS News, at least I saw a clip and I don't know if it was today, but had interviewed Melinda, Melinda Gates, Bill Gates, his ex wife, on, you know, on their divorce. Why did you, you know, divorce him? And the clip that's going around right now is like, oh. Melinda says, well, there were a number of reasons that I divorced him. Gayle King says, was one of them his business dealings with Jeffrey Epstein? And she said, yes, among other things. She said, I've also, I had also met with Jeffrey, but the frequency of their meetings and their business dealings, I did not like and told him so. And so look, Prince Andrew, the entire royal family cover it up. His dealings with Jeffrey Epstein by creating an entire circus around Megan Sussex. This administration used Joe Biden as their cudgel. Oh, he's covering up all of these things to then create a cover up for Donald Trump. There is not a powerful man, I am sure of it, in business and in politics that was not fucking around with Jeffrey Epstein and his sex trafficking circle. And so, yes, that man just happened to hang himself when he was on suicide watch. And the cameras just happened to go off at the time that that happened. And he just happened to find all of the material that he needed while somebody was on a coffee break. Miss me with this bullshit right now of this entire fucking MAGA circle. So I'm like, you know what if this is one of the fissures that happens inside a maga, my God, somebody Get me a crowbar so I can throw it at them. So they can use it to break themselves apart.

Tom Deliberido (18:00)

Yeah. Look, I never really believed that Epstein was murdered in his cell until Caspertel's FBI late last night, said he committed suicide.

Andy Levy (18:14)

And.

Tom Deliberido (18:15)

Oh, and by the way. And that there's no client list. Now I sort of am a full on. You know, I think. I guess now I'm one of those people who says I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but. And then goes on from there on. On. On this issue. Because I just have to think that if this FBI, under this leadership and this Justice Department under this leadership says the sky is blue, I am pretty much assuming that the sky is red because that's. It's what they do. They lie. They lie as a matter of course. They lie on the reg. It's a pathological thing with them. They just. That's what they do. Lie, baby, lie. I have sort of gone from. In the span of like 5 minutes of reading this story, I went from, you know, look, I know there are irregularities about the way he died, but it was probably suicide. Conspiracies are impossible to keep quiet, et cetera. I've gone from that to, oh, he was fucking murdered, man. They got to him. I just don't think the they is, you know, Hillary Clinton, the way the conspiracists have always sort of put it, or the conspiracists on the right, anyway. But yeah, this is just. I mean, I don't know, with everything going on, it takes a lot to make my jaw drop these days. And that article, this admission did it. My jaw, Absolutely. I was like the creature in Alien. My jaw just unhinged. And then a tiny little andy jaw.

Andy Levy (19:51)

Came out from and screamed, they did it.

Tom Deliberido (19:56)

Yeah.

Danielle Moody (20:00)

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Andy Levy (20:44)

Out here, we feel things. The sore calves that lead to epic views. The cool waterfall mist during a hot hike. And the breeze that hits just right at the summit. But hey, don't just listen to us. Experience it for yourself. Alltrails makes it easy to discover the best of the outdoors. With more than 450,000 trails around the world, points of interest along the trail and offline maps for always on navigation, download the free app today and find your next outdoor adventure. Folks, I am very happy to welcome to as the World Churns, Tom deliberido, who is the media director of Climate Central and was a former NOAA employee who was let go, fired. And today you join us on the heels of tragedy that has continued to unfold. I mean, I'm coming on air with you right now. And the total number of deaths of the Texas flash flood at the Guadalupe river is now at 95. 95 deaths and more are missing. The Kerr county mayor has, you know, told folks that prepare for a very long week ahead as they continue to do a search and rescue for the missing. Tom, I just, you know, I want to start out with, you know, with your thoughts on this. Given the fact that we've spent a lot of time on, you know, on this show just talking about the fact that this was preventable. These, you know, these deaths were preventable. So from your vantage point, please.

Jordan Lasker (22:23)

Yeah, well, first, it's a horrible tragedy. And this happened in a place in the country, the hill country in Texas, which is kind of known for flash floods. I've heard flash flood alley. And if you were trying to create a more nightmarish scenario, you would have basically created what just happened in that area. You would have had these slow moving thunderstorms taking advantage of huge amounts of moisture in the atmosphere, helped along by warmer than average temperatures in the air, warmer than average temperatures in the Gulf of Mexico. And they slowly moved and dumped tons of rainfall that all washed into the river that led to this flash flooding. And whenever you have something like this with this much loss of life, this much damage, you know, in my eyes, it's a failure. It's obviously it's a huge failure. We should not have anyone to go through this. And the scary thought here is that while this area is known for flash flooding, there are plenty of other places around this country that are also susceptible to flash flooding. And we've seen an increase in number and frequency and intensity of extreme rainfall events that, you know, this time it was Texas, but who knows where the next time? Because there will be a next time somewhere in this country.

Andy Levy (23:36)

You know, and one of the things that, you know, again that are, that are coming out and as folks are connecting the dots, and that's what I like to do here is the fact that Doge cut about a thousand jobs out of NOAA and the National Weather Service. These are critical jobs of folks like yourselves who were on top of being able to look at satellite imaging, being able to look at storms to coordinate with local emergency personnel in order to minimize. Right. The amount of deaths, minimize the amount of damage. Because look, what we know is that these type of extreme weather events are extreme due to climate change. And that every year, every season, that places that were always going to be in the, in the target zone of these, of these changes are in these red states, are in areas like Flash Flood Alley and what have you. But the rate at which these events are happening that they're saying, oh well, it's once in a thousand years. These things are happening once in a few seasons, once every couple of months. So talk to us about the connection to where we are right now with this tragedy and how climate change has exacerbated it and how now these cuts have exacerbated what this has happened here. But what's coming as we begin hurricane season.

Jordan Lasker (25:12)

Yeah, and as you mentioned, I am one of those people who was cut. I had worked at NOAA starting in 2010 and then I become a federal employee in 2023 and I was fired 14 days before my probation period ended. And my story is not unique. There are a lot of other people who are let go, a lot of other people who took early retirement or took the fork in the road, email, whatever you want to call it, that are no longer working at noaa. And it's not just the fact that that human being is gone, but it's also all of that experience is gone. People who've worked at NOAA 30 years are gone. People who have forecasted the weather for certain communities for that long who know the intricate detail normally happens, the people that you need to be in contact with, the communities that tend to flood. All of this really vital information contained within a person who is no longer at noaa. And obviously climate change is a thing, it is a real thing. It's happening right now. It is only going to get worse as we continue to emit greenhouse gases. And one of the clear cut sorts of impacts of climate change, besides making temperatures warmer and increasing heat, is also the fact that we are seeing increasing extreme rainfall events. You've seen this since the middle of the 20th century to now across much of the country, including Texas and the Southeast, the Northeast, the Mid Atlantic, the Midwest, the Great Lakes, the Northwest. And we're expecting to see that continue to get even worse than it is now. And what this is showing is that we are not prepared for the extreme weather of today, let alone what we are going to see in the future due to climate Change. And we know that climate change is not picky. It will do what it does somewhere. Same with weather. It'll happen somewhere. It's just a matter of time. And we talk about these events. As you know, we're at 1 in 100 years, which basically means there's a 1% chance of it happening in the beginning of the year. But that's assuming a static climate. Our climate anything but static. Our climate is warming. These extremes are changing. So an event that may have been a quote, one in 100 year event 20 years ago does not mean it's going to be a one in 100 year event today. And it's certainly doesn't mean it's going to be that in the future. They're going to happen more and more often. And other aspects of what NOAA does, we know NOAA does the forecast, the National Weather Service the forecast, but NOAA also does the science behind how these extremes are changing. NOAA does the research in how we communicate better the risks of these events so people can make the best actions. NOAA also does some of the work with these communities to help implement adaptation measures that we know these rivers flood, it's called flash flood alley for a reason. So how can we work with communities to minimize the risk of flooding? All of which is something that could be cut, could easily go away. And this is something that we're not prepared for right now, let alone the future where we know things are going to get worse.

Andy Levy (28:10)

You know what was crazy? So in Project 2025, which I'm sure you are familiar with on page, I think it was 675 was their entire plan for NOAA and the National Weather Service was that they believed the folks Heritage Foundation, Trump folks believe that the National Weather System and NOAA had become politicized and putting out climate change information that was going to affect industry and that it needed to be shrunk right? And it needed to be broken apart. And that was fully written out in a 900 page memo in the PDF that was free for people to see as we were leading up into the 2024 presidential election. And here we are. And following that, when Trump's budget came out, which is now law, that gut Noah, that gut the National Weather Service, a group of former leaders of the National Weather Service put out an open letter to the American people that said that these cuts are going to cost lives. And now following this tragedy, where I say as of right now, 95 people are dead, speaker of the House Mike Johnson said all we can do is offer prayers. What do you say to that?

Jordan Lasker (29:36)

You know, one thing that I always loved about Noah and really I loved about the weather community, which is what I come from, I'm a part of, is at no point does anyone ever think like, who did this person vote for before giving them potentially life saving information. We have so many examples of how important it is to help people with the right forecasts, but also it's helping people afterwards with actions, physical actions, with people on the ground with money to support, because we know that these events, just because they happened right now, they'll be suffering the consequences of this for decades and decades and decades to come. And that requires consistent help and work. And I feel like that is the key thing with all of these, quote, natural disasters, right, as unnatural as they are, that the actions like we can't just, we can't just say words. We have to do actions, we have to help people out. Especially because given where this location is, there could be flash floods later on this year, there could be flash floods next year. We already know this area needs help, right? And we already know just how important it is to have a robust and strong and fully staffed National Weather Service and FEMA to be able to help communities out. And when it comes to forecast, that includes working with local, county, state officials to make sure everyone knows what to do, who to call, what the issues.

Andy Levy (31:04)

Are, you know, and right now, right, I mean, following, you know, this tragedy as things continue to unfold, Texas officials were blaming the National Weather Service. They got on television in their press conferences and said that it was the National Weather Service's fault. We should have had warnings earlier. And look, I'm the political person here and we'll say that the county that was hit voted for Trump by 77%. Right? So I know that the people that were standing up there, it's all likelihood that they voted for Donald Trump, that they voted for this, this area, this county also, which I think has 50,000 people in this rural area, were warned that these events are going to continue to happen. Should they invest in, right, developing, like you said, these early detection systems, these mitigating mechanisms that they can put in place in order to minimize the damage. And the people in that area voted against it because it was going to cost money to do that. How do we reconcile, do you think, the reality of rural areas, the lack of resources that they have, but also an ideology that has become pervasive that tells them that the damage that is being done right now is just an act of God as opposed to Right. Science and climate change and things that there can. There are things to do in this moment. And that it does. Does require resources and investment in order to save lives.

Jordan Lasker (32:45)

Yeah. So it's a really good question. How do we reach people? And I always say, I've been communicating weather and climate science for a very, very long time. And even with all of my knowledge and my ability to read scientific journals and all this scientific gobbledygook, I know that when it comes to getting a message across to somebody, I'm from New York originally. I feel like it comes across when I talk really fast. If you pop me somewhere else in the middle of the country, another place, like, it's very obvious I'm not from there. I'm not as good of a messenger about this topic than someone who's from that community. And part of and parcel of, like, how do we have people understand the risks and understand truly what's at stake is not necessarily me going into a community and being able to talk to them, Because I don't know Texas, I may have been. I've been to Texas once or twice in my life. But there are people who live in those communities, who are within those communities who can talk about these risks. And that's one of the benefits of the National Weather Service, that these forecasts aren't coming from Washington, D.C. they're coming from an office that lives in the community. This is not like the federal government, way away. These are people who you meet at church, you'll see at the grocery store. And it's our ability to. How do we create more lines of communication so people realize that these risks, these risks are being told to you by a friend or a colleague that you can trust that you know that who's just looking out for you. And when it comes to climate and these extremes, it is very, very hard to imagine something you've never experienced before. And sometimes it's a bit of a failure or just the human imagination for some of these extremes. No one has ever probably witnessed something like what just happened in Texas. And we see this. What happened in Asheville, North Carolina, what happened in Charleston, what happened in upstate New York and Vermont from previously, what happened in Connecticut over last summer, these unbelievable rainfall amounts that led to widespread flood, flooding, it led to flash flooding, it led sadly to people losing their lives. And it is incredibly hard for us to imagine those scenarios. It's just human nature. So how do we communicate? I don't know if I have a good answer, but how do we communicate that what we're seeing are things that we haven't seen before. How do we prepare for something that we haven't seen before? And it's a huge question, but I really do believe it begins with community. And the way we can deal with these risks and the way we can get things through some of these extremes is, again, relying on community and starting with the community. And that involves just having increased conversations and creating the spaces for people to be able to communicate with each other.

Andy Levy (35:26)

Yeah. It's just, you know, I find this moment to be extraordinary because I don't. What I fear right now, Tom, is that we're not gonna learn anything from this. We'll learn, right, that Doge cuts led to a lack of skilled personnel. We'll learn that the Department of Defense shut down NOAA's access to satellites that would allow them to see storms that are intensifying in real time. We'll learn all of those things. But under this current regime, nothing is going to change. As a matter of fact, because of the passage of the billionaire bill, that this is actually just going to get worse. So what would your warning be to people who are just like, oh, well, you know, we can't politicize this moment. All we can do is pray when we know that we are just at the beginning of what has become one of the most devastating climate seasons, which is hurricane season.

Jordan Lasker (36:31)

Guys, I'm not politicizing anything. I'm just talking about science, you know, and I'm just talking about the facts in front of me and the reason why I do this, the reason why people in the National Weather Service do this, the reason why scientists, climate scientists, meteorologists do this, is because of a pure, unadulterated mission to help people. I don't like seeing people getting hurt. I don't care who you are. I don't care who you voted for. I don't care what sports team you rooted for. I don't care. I just want to make sure that you're safe. And that feeling is not just me. That feeling is part and parcel for a heck of a lot of federal employees. First of all, as the core driving mission, and when it comes to the fact, yeah, things are likely to get worse, we're warming our planet still. We know that's still going to make things worse, but the choice is still ours. And I know that the people making these forecasts are still going to be making them as best as they can. They're still working with communities as the best that they can, but we're clearly not supporting them as we have in the past and that is going to have repercussions. But it's important for us to speak up to the benefits to these things. I feel like a lot of folks don't understand necessarily just what value they get from the federal government. It's one of those things when the polls come out and they say, I don't want, I want to get rid of federal employees. We need less federal employees. But then if you ask them specifically, well, do you want to get rid of people who study cancer research? Do you want to get rid of people forecast the weather? They're like, no, I didn't mean that. And I think part of that is we, you know, when the weather service and when NOAA is working well, you don't know about it and it works well a lot. So you don't necessarily know about these impacts. And the key here is to communicate just what is at stake by reducing these data, this data reducing the resources, because in the end, it's something that all of us, no matter where you live, are vulnerable to. There is extreme weather in different types that affects every single part of the world. So any hits to the National Weather Service, to noaa, to fema, is going to be felt across these communities. It's just a matter of time before an extreme comes.

Andy Levy (38:39)

I want to thank you so much for making the time today to join us on as the World Turns and for the work that you continue to do at Climate Central. Because I think it's incredibly important for people to understand the real life impacts, the real world impacts of where we are right now. And the fear is that this is just the beginning. Thank you so much, Tom. Appreciate you and continue your really, really good work.

Jordan Lasker (39:05)

Yeah, thank you for having me.

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Tom Deliberido (40:48)

My next guest says he's proud of America and ashamed of what's happening to it. Joining me now to talk about this and other things is senior editor and writer for MSNBC Daily, Anthony Fisher. Anthony was previously the senior opinion editor for the Daily Beast and a politics columnist for Business Insider. More impressively, he's also more my friend. Anthony, thanks so much for joining me.

Anthony Fisher (41:09)

Delighted to be here. You know, it's been, it's been a while, you know, so.

Tom Deliberido (41:12)

Yeah, definitely. Okay. So you wrote a piece about this for msnbc.com about being proud of America and ashamed of what's happening to it. And in this piece, you wrestled with the question of how proud are you to be an American? What was the impetus for this piece?

Anthony Fisher (41:30)

Ballot poll got a decent amount of top line was that 58% of Americans feel extremely or very proud to be an American. That is the lowest number of those two readings of where you fit on the patriotism spectrum since Gallup started taking the poll in January of 01. I find very strange that they only started asking that question in January of 01. But that's what we've got to work with. And as I noted, basically Republicans have stayed well above 84%, like the whole time in the 24 years since. But a number of things, including the Iraq war, including the rise of Trump, saw sharp downturns among both Democrats and independents. And I think independents even right now are at a record low of saying that they're extremely or very proud. But there was a, you know, if you look in the actual data that if you added mostly proud, like if you still had on the positive side, that's still where the major, you know, a large amount of Americans were. But I think that's healthy. I think that when people say that they're extremely proud or very proud, that's the kind of it like, I don't want to say extreme patriotism, but it's certainly a more intense patriotism than I've felt comfortable with for a while.

Tom Deliberido (42:41)

That gets to A really important question, and that is, what does it mean to be patriotic? And I talked a little about this on our July 4th episode, but I'm curious how you answer that, because it gets to what you were saying.

Anthony Fisher (42:52)

Yes, that is the important question. There is a my country, right or wrong, Rah, rah. Patriotism. That's literally just follow the flag till I die. And I think there's also a, you know, being proud of the many things about American culture. Now, some, to some people, that might be like churches and barbecues. To some people, it might be like the incredible ethnic melting pot that is much of America, particularly urban America. I know some people, you know, feel that they love American values but are frustrated with the country itself or whichever government is in charge. And so for myself, the American values that I love and am proud of. And, you know, in situations where comparing myself as a citizen of this country as compared to other countries, I feel very lucky and that much of that has to do with the Constitution mostly. Much of that has to do with checks and balances. Much of that has to do with free speech. You know, you know that the. That the army can't post up in your house, like, things like that. And I see all of those things under attack. And as I also mentioned in the column, I've always been impressed by America's sometimes glacially slow, but then often very fast afterwards progress in civil rights and social justice situations. Sorry for using social justice together, but I see all of those things, the things that I am most proud of, the things that make me go, yeah, America is cool. It is amazing that I was born in America at this moment in time. I am lucky as hell. I see these things under attack, and I see them not only under attack legislatively and, you know, by the executive branch, but, like, culturally that, like, you know, that maybe we shouldn't have a free press. Maybe, maybe there are differences between the races and some are poisoning the blood of America. That's the kind of stuff that I go, how can I possibly say I'm extremely proud when that's the winning dominant culture?

Tom Deliberido (44:44)

Right. Well, we have our poll quote, by the way, Seamus. Our producer, Anthony Fisher, says some ethnicities are poisoning the blood of America. I'm interested in this feeling about patriotism and what it means to be patriotic. And back in, I think it was January, I had a good sort of discussion about this on Blue sky with a friend of mine. One of the things that bugs me is the way Patriot has been sort of conceded to the right in the same way that Family Values has, and I don't think we should do that. I think it's patriotic to want to make your country better. And it's not the same thing as nationalism, which is, as you said, that's my country, right or wrong. To me, that's not patriotism. That's nationalism. And if you conflate those two things, that's when, like you said, that's when you really get into trouble. That. That's when, you know, you look at the examples of countries that have done that, and that's where you start looking at totalitarian or authoritarian regimes, et cetera. So that's why I really like your piece, and I really think that it's important that we not cede the word patriotism or the concept of patriotism to the right the way we always seem to let them frame the debate.

Anthony Fisher (46:04)

Yeah, I mean, I like, you know, and again, I don't. I don't consider. Like, I know you've taken a journey to the left. I still don't consider myself, like, explicitly of the left. I certainly think that in Trump, there is a. There is a not both sides, but true size kind of situation. I concede to that. But I can't really speak for what the left has done as far as rejecting, like, the image of patriotism, because, as you know, as we've seen, like, the dominant voices of the activist left kind of ebb and flow through the years. Sometimes it comes from academia, sometimes it comes straight from activism, Sometimes it comes from, you know, you know, who knows? But it's definitely, you know, in the last 20 years, post Iraq war, post George W. Bush, like. Yeah. And we all lived through that, you know, like, where the flag pin was. You know, first at first it was solidarity, then it wasn't. And it's never, you know.

Tom Deliberido (46:56)

Yeah.

Anthony Fisher (46:56)

You know, in Obama's first term, that's what it was about. That was, like, the last time. Like, think, like, the broader left really took on, like, patriotism. Like, you know, what else we can. You know, it was. It was optimism about America, whereas was. America sucks right now, but in this mythical past, you. It was great, you know? Yeah. So, like, the message of hope, you know, Like, I mean, you know, like, you know, I know Kamala Harris didn't have the easiest set of cards handed to her with 100 dates President. But, you know, joy, I think, was the theme. But joy is, like, vague, you know, whereas where Right open America, like, hey, like, you're just not looking right. Like, America's got these things going for it. And you can take advantage of these things and we can all take advantage of these things. And I mean, I do, I will say that, you know, and this always happens predictably when you're a free speech person. But you know, the left is rediscovering free speech. The left is rediscovering due process. You know, so if they hold on to that kind of stuff and don't abandon it when they're back in power, if they're hopefully back in power at some point, that, you know, that's just healthy in a democracy. That would be like, I wish, I wish the left would embrace like these things, these, these civil liberties that we all enjoy that have helped innumerable civil rights be earned. I wish they would hold onto those as like America, like this is America. You're like, the regime that would not allow us these rights is not America. But what do I know?

Tom Deliberido (48:25)

Yeah, well, one of the things you wrote in your piece was you wrote, I haven't given up on America. I'm just not sure yet if America has given up on itself. First of all, settle down, Aaron Sorkin. I mean, you know, but I actually did, when I read that line, I.

Anthony Fisher (48:40)

Knew you were a fan of Aaron Sorkin too.

Tom Deliberido (48:42)

I am a fan of Aaron Sorkin, within limits. But when I like him, I love him. And that did strike me as a line that you would hear in like West Wing or.

Anthony Fisher (48:51)

I've actually never seen a full episode of West Wing, I swear to God.

Tom Deliberido (48:54)

Yeah, no, no, I believe you, but it just, it did strike me that way. But it's also, it's an interesting thought, you know, that you're just not sure if America has given up on itself because it really does feel like in a lot of ways we look at what's going on, we look at what's going on with the detention slash concentration camp in Florida, we look at what's going on in Los Angeles, we look at what's going on with the, as you mentioned, due process before. The fact that we seem to be chucking that in the garbage. And it is really hard to tell if America has just given up on itself. All of these things are self inflicted.

Anthony Fisher (49:30)

You know, I, I, I, you know, in self reflective moments, I can see that sometimes, you know, I, I, I, I may put this question to people, you know, intensely, but like the things you mention, each one of those things I would ask Americans, any American, where is your line? You know, what is enough? You know, is it the, you know, literal secret police that have, you know, now been ultra funded for a decade who literally grab people up off the streets without due process. We've seen videos where they actually grab US Citizens who somehow are able to prove their US citizenship and are just let go, but without any, you know, documentation of who just roughed them up and threw them on the floor and you know, under what authority they have to do that. So many examples that we could, we can choose from, but these were things that were not normal and now they are, you know, they're just normal. Like, and you know, this, this could possibly transition us into another conversation. But like there are still people talking about COVID tyrants, you know, and.

Tom Deliberido (50:34)

Right, right.

Anthony Fisher (50:35)

And all that stuff while this is happening.

Tom Deliberido (50:38)

So yeah, when.

Anthony Fisher (50:40)

So I would say it's less about like, oh, you hypocrites and more like, you know, you know, America, have you given up on yourself? It's like, it's one thing to just be, just not, not paying attention to this kind of stuff, but if you are and you're not and you're still, you're fighting a battle four years ago, then, you know, like with friends like Denise.

Tom Deliberido (50:59)

You know, there's a term on Twitter called subtweeting when you're calling out people without naming them. I feel like this is now subcasting. I think I'm going to call this now. But, but it leads me to what I want to switch gears to, which is over the weekend, Elon Musk said he was considering forming a new political party. He did one of his bullshit Twitter polls and then announced the people have spoken. A new political party is needed in America to represent the 80% in the middle. So he now says he's starting a party called the America Party. So I want to talk about that 80% in the middle, which of course is not an actual statistic, but it put me in the mind of something you and I and others often talk about. And that's sort of the so called politically homeless or politically tribeless. Because this is the same shtick, isn't it? Pretending you're in the middle, pretending you're part of a silent majority. That that's what he's trying to do here. Right.

Anthony Fisher (51:53)

I don't know that that's what he's trying to do. I mean he's. That that line, the 80% in the middle has been used by everybody. Like from Bill Maher, 80%, you know, okay, he's clear. Like, like, like there are a lot of people who, you know, will, will say that, you know, they're politically tribalist. They're politically homeless. I actually fail that way myself, although I'd never use that phrase for obvious reasons. But everything like, you know, it might be like a Nerf ball tossed to the right every once in a while, and they're otherwise, you know, exclusively supporting MAGA Trump, you know. You know, even if they make fun of Trump, it's like, in the, you know, subtlest way, or, I mean, not even subtle, but just like the gentlest way. I don't even think Elon Musk is like, I know he says stuff like the 80% in the middle, but what I think is he's know he's an extremist among extremists, you know?

Tom Deliberido (52:39)

Right.

Anthony Fisher (52:40)

Like his version, you know, like. Now, granted, he and Bannon are at odds, but that doesn't mean that one of them is more centrist than the other.

Tom Deliberido (52:48)

Right.

Anthony Fisher (52:48)

It just means that, like, Elon Musk's got this techno fascist libertarianist streak and Steve Bannon's got a blood and soil nationalist streak. You know, it doesn't. You couldn't, you couldn't put one of those in the 80% in the middle. So I just think Elon Musk, because he's even said in some of those tweets the other day that he's only trying to flip a few districts. He's not even looking at the White House. He wanted, he wants. What he, what he wants to do is cleave off a small portion of presumably the Republican Party that is the Elon wing of the Republican Party, which honestly is like, it's. I still don't think it'll work, but, like, it's more cogent strategy than I've seen from Elon in a while. You know, like, it's, it's not. It's. It's. It's actually like less, you know, like tomorrow we're going to overthrow and have, you know, everybody's gonna be the America Party. I said, I still don't think it'll work. But I actually think he's being kind of open about the fact that it's not really centrism. It's just like we want, you know, I don't. I want to get some Republicans who would vote against a bill like that. I want to get one. We're going to get some Republicans that will, you know, do more ev. Tax breaks, things like that.

Tom Deliberido (53:57)

But he does say that one of the platforms of the American party will be free speech. And I'm assuming you believe him.

Anthony Fisher (54:03)

Oh, yeah, man. You saw what he did with Twitter. He's never throttled anybody. He's never shut down accounts or, you know, sued his critics. No. Yeah, he's, he's like, there's, there's no more free speechy guy than Elon Musk.

Tom Deliberido (54:15)

Yeah, yeah. When I said that the 80% of the middle thing that it reminded me of the, the shtick that the politically homeless claim, what I meant really was exactly sort of what you said, that the people who call themselves politically homeless, politically tribeless, they are generally, if they criticize the right, it's, it's a, you know, more in sorrow than anger or, you know, it like, it's a nerf ball. Like you said, when they criticize the left, it's, it's straight up vitriol.

Anthony Fisher (54:47)

It's the end of west civilization.

Tom Deliberido (54:50)

Right, exactly. And to me, that's exactly, you know, yes, Musk is out there. He's mad because, you know, the, the big bullshit bill doesn't have Tesla subsidies anymore. You know, but he is not in the middle. I agree he is far from the middle. But, but these people like to portray themselves as sort of above the fray and sort of condescendingly look down on everyone else. And they're like, I'm just being, I'm just a rational person here, you know, calling balls and strikes when really they're.

Anthony Fisher (55:20)

Not, as you said, you know, again, I don't even like, want to go too far into my own personal, you know, political, you know, alienation. But like, I truly do feel politically tribalist. Even in the time of Trump, when you see an entire movement of people say that they're politically tribalist or politically homeless and they agree on about 95% of things and they all have a laser focus on the same enemy. And also really not, you know, to a person, do not consider Trump a threat either if they do not actively support them, which most of them have finally come around to doing, you know, we'll just continue to minimize or what about, or you know, like, you know, bring up, you know, Stacey Abrams was a sort of loser about losing the, you know, Georgia gubernatorial race and that's the same thing as what Trump did, you know, but like, to me that's a, that's a litmus test. So, I mean, yeah, you know, it's a phenomenon that like seems to be waning. I mean, there's been a lot of articles about like the, you know, the collapse of the anti woke media subscription model. I don't, I don't keep track of that kind of stuff. So I don't really know. But it would stand to reason that, like, you know, once you're in power, once you literally have, like, your, you know, there are, There are people in this movement, like, you know, free press columnists, who are literally in the Trump administration now. I don't know how you can possibly say that, that, like, you know, the man is keeping you down and that you're espousing bold truths and that you would, like you said, above the fray, not in the fray.

Tom Deliberido (56:55)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something you write about and post about often is the people you call the civility cops is this. What do you mean by this? And, you know, Seinfeld voice who are these people?

Anthony Fisher (57:07)

Well, I mean, it's a rich tapestry of people. Too many guilty to name too many, too few innocent to leave out. So I'll just leave it with that. The, the reason I termed that phrase is because as the Internet and as Twitter got really disgusting in the mid 2010s, I did actually see, you know, among what, you know, for lack of a better phrase, the heterodox community, what I thought was a, an actually earnest attempt at civil discourse, like, talking to your political enemies. And I really did see that a lot, and I appreciated that. And, and, and I got into that myself. I really came to believe that, like, just as long as you're talking to these people and they're not, like, literally espousing eugenics, you know, like, you know, you, you know, keep the discourse going. But then I noticed, you know, during the rise of TRUMP and although 10 years since, that, like, the tone policing, the, the accusations of hatred and condescension and all that always only went in one direction, you know, at the left, and not just extreme left or the activist left, but, like, mainstream Democrats, the media, you know, it was always like, gasp, you know, they're being so mean, you know, and at the same time, like, this psychotic, like, like, basically alt right meme culture became mainstream, you know, and it's in the White House now. So the civility capsule police, any failure of decorum. And yet, when you literally have, like, overt racism, you know, calls for violence, fascism, ad hominem, insults, names, naming people, remember the whole, like, okay, groomer thing. All of these people are in good standing with what I call the civility cops, right? I, I, I, and I, and I've written about that, you know, in, in the, in the, in the run up to the election. I remember there was, you know, Trump had that racist rally at Madison Square Garden, and then Biden also had that line where he you may or may not think he called Trump's supporters garbage, you know.

Tom Deliberido (58:58)

Yeah.

Anthony Fisher (58:59)

You know, depending on where the apostrophe is. I never, you know, early.

Andy Levy (59:01)

Right.

Anthony Fisher (59:03)

But again, even right around that time, I was days before the election. I just could not believe that, you know, among, you know, a decent amount of people who I have respect for in the heterodox circles that the, the Trump had some dirty jokes at a rally. Get over it. And Biden is literally the reason this country is tearing itself apart, you know.

Tom Deliberido (59:24)

Yeah.

Anthony Fisher (59:25)

And. And it's amazing that that kind of stuff still. You know, we're almost six months into Trump 2.0, and that's still the vibe.

Tom Deliberido (59:33)

Yeah, it's absolutely wild. Anthony, thanks so much as always for coming on. And, folks, you can check out Anthony's writing@msnbc.com that's correct. Yay. I got it right. Anthony, thanks again. I really appreciate it. Always good talking to you. My pleasure.

Anthony Fisher (59:50)

Thanks.

Andy Levy (59:52)

So, Andy, this is a wild week. It's just Monday. So much will happen. So how are you kicking things off with your. Fuck that guy.

Tom Deliberido (60:03)

Yeah. Just so many different possibilities. But I want to touch on one that happened towards the end of last week when your president, Donald Trump was in Iowa talking to a crowd and he was talking about his big dumb ass bill. And he said, no death tax, no estate tax, no going to the banks and borrowing from, in some cases, a fine banker, and in some cases, Shylocks and bad people. But those of you that don't know, and as this story has sort of played out a little on social media, I was kind of amazed to find out that a lot of people, particularly younger people, don't know where the term Shylock comes from, but it was a term used. It was a character in Shakespeare's play Merchant of Venice, and Shylock was a banker who was Jewish and who demanded a pound of flesh from a Christian merchant who couldn't pay his debt to Shylock. This has been regarded, you know, I want to say from day one because I'm old, but I wasn't there barely when Shakespeare wrote this. But this has been regarded as an anti Semitic trope for forever. And calling someone a Shylock or referring to them as Shylock is a, you know, it plays. First of all, it plays on the anti Semitic trope of caring only about money. All Shylock wants is his pound of flesh. And obviously it also plays into the anti Semitic trope that, you know, all bankers are Jewish. So Donald Trump says this, and he's my. Fuck that guy. For saying it. But there's also, you know, you get tired after a while saying that. Can you imagine if so and so said this? But the coverage of this has not been all that widespread. I'm not saying it hasn't existed. I did a search on the New York Times. One hit. They did one story on this. I feel like they've done a lot more stories on a lot of things, a lot less maybe important than the President of the United States using an anti Semitic trope. But I am, you know, I'm not on the editorial board of the New York Times, obviously.

Andy Levy (62:16)

And then there were other ones that.

Tom Deliberido (62:18)

Used headlines that would, you know, Trump uses term that some say is anti Semitic. There's no some say on this. It's an anti Semitic term. That's what it is. It is widely understood as that. It's taught as that when Merchant of Venice is taught. And it's just, it's absolutely unbelievable what they let him skate on compared to how they treat other people.

Andy Levy (62:42)

So, look, I was shocked.

Tom Deliberido (62:44)

Even the Anti Defamation League, which under its current leader, Jonathan Greenblatt has been awful, Islamophobic, a million other things, generally hand waving away anytime Donald Trump or someone on the right does something anti Semitic, which is pretty much every day. And even the Anti Defamation League came out with a statement saying that President Trump use of the term was very troubling and irresponsible. So it's gotta be bad. If Jonathan Greenblatt's ADL is calling out Trump on something, it's gotta be bad. But you would not, you know, again, I'm not saying the media didn't cover it. You can, you can do a Google search, you'll get a story at the New York Times, you'll get other stories. It's just, it's the way they cover it. It's the one and done aspect of it. And it contrasts so greatly with the way they choose to cover other things. So my fuck, that guy is Donald Trump, but my fuck, that guy is also the media who consistently let Donald Trump get away with shit. So fuck all y'.

Andy Levy (63:54)

All. I don't even know what to say at this point because it's just like, I don't know. Yeah, this is how people lose faith in institution. This is how people just like give up in a whole lot of ways. Because, you know, the New York Times will place their daggers on anyone other than a person that is actually causing undue harm. And, you know, and it's just like, I don't know how many times you have to say that Donald Trump is a racist, that he's a misogynist, that he is, you know, like, whatever, all of the things, and not even have to print anything other than a transcript. It's. It's light. It's light work at this point and light work that they prefer not to do.

Tom Deliberido (64:45)

Yeah.

Andy Levy (64:46)

So fuck those guys.

Tom Deliberido (64:47)

Yeah. And I'll just add. Just quickly, Trump later said he'd never heard that the term shylock is anti Semitic. So now they're reporting he became one. Trump says he never heard that. Please. He's stupid, but he's not that stupid Anyway. Danielle, get me out of this. Give me a good fuck that guy.

Andy Levy (65:05)

Well, funny enough, my fuck that guy picks up where your fuck that guy leads off. And so here, here it goes. The New York Times cut a deal with Jordan Lasker, who is a eugenicist and a far right activist, which I won't even, like, fuck the term. Like, whatever. Yeah, he's a fucking racist and a white nationalist that the New York Times referred to in a piece that they. Here's the deal that they cut. They cut a deal to get hacked data from Columbia University for a story casting aspersions on Zoran Mamdani's hyphenated identity. And in doing so, they put out a rush story to try and scoop another white nationalist, Chris Ruffo, because he had a story. And according to Semaphore, they basically wanted to get ahead of Chris Ruffo's story. The entire New York Times. And the Times journalist said, quote, people are really upset. In the scare. In the series post on Blue Sky, Times colonist Jamelle Bowie said, I think you should tell readers if your source is a Nazi, which would be nice. So instead of just saying, we've heard from some people, we can now assume that with the New York Times, that includes white nationalists, Nazis and crank pots, all so that they could get a hit piece out on Zorin Mamdani. And, you know, like, it's just so fucking disgusting. And it's just so, like, I just want folks to understand how fucking transparent everyone is right now on their bullshit, right? On their Islamophobia, on their anti Semitism, like, the hoods are off. Everything is as clear as fucking day who is in cahoots with who and why. And everyone, including mainstream corporate media, is in cahoots with billionaires, who is in cahoots with fucking Donald Trump that's in cahoots with white nationalism. All to be against the people, to keep money in their own fucking Pockets. Right. So at the end of the day, I just want folks to take this as like, if you didn't have reason to vote for Zoran Mandani before you're get. You're being given every fucking reason to vote for him by the people that are showing up to be against him and see him as a fucking threat. Enough to put a white nationalist as your goddamn source in the New York Times. So for that reason, the New York Times and all, all of these people that are trying to coordinate to bring down Mamdani. Fuck all of them. Absolutely every fucking single one.

Tom Deliberido (67:58)

Yeah. Even by the New York Times current standards, this was bad. Publishing this story was bad. It is not in the least bit newsworthy that someone who was born in Ugan Rhonda checked a box that said black or African American. I don't mind that they got the story from a hack because journalists do that. I don't think they are particularly logical in the way they decide when it's okay to report a story based on a hawk or not. And it seems to be sometimes if it's going to hurt the Republicans, they're afraid to report it. I think there was a case with J.D. vance's, I want to say his debate notes got leaked and I don't think the Times covered them, what they said. But the idea that first of all, as you said, the source for this piece is this whack job, right wing, straight up racist eugenicist, as Jamelle Bouie said, Nazi. He may not be a national socialist, but we know what we're saying when we say Nazi. In this case, he's a Nazi. And the idea that they granted him anonymity was other people that outed it. He didn't even identify him as the source. And then once he was outed in other places they identified him, but they identified him. I forget what the exact phrase was, but it was like controversial. What was it?

Andy Levy (69:25)

Oh, I'll tell you what the phrase was. Quote, he is an academic who opposes affirmative action and writes often about IQ and race.

Tom Deliberido (69:36)

Yeah, he's a cow upper guy. He's a guy that thinks your head, you know, the shape of your head and the size of your head determine how smart you are. I'm not saying that literally either, but those are the kinds of people we're talking about here. So they don't even describe him accurately. They whitewash literally what he believes and who he is. And then the idea that they didn't want to be scooped by Chris Ruffo, who there have been jokes for a while now because this guy who could not suck more has been given a lot of favorable coverage in the New York Times, and there have been jokes about how he is basically their assignment editor because the Times always seems to pick up things that he wants them to talk about. And then the idea, though, now that they're basically confirming this, it's just everything about this is awful. And God, fuck those guys, man.

Anthony Fisher (70:31)

Ben hadn't had a decent night's sleep.

Tom Deliberido (70:33)

In a month, so during one of.

Andy Levy (70:36)

His restless nights, he booked a package.

Tom Deliberido (70:38)

Trip abroad on Expedia. When he arrived at his beachside hotel.

Andy Levy (70:42)

He discovered a miraculous bed slung between two trees and fell into their best sleep of his life.

Tom Deliberido (70:50)

You were made to be rechargeable.

Anthony Fisher (70:53)

We were made to package flights and.

Tom Deliberido (70:55)

Hotels and hammocks for less. Expedia made to Travel.

Anthony Fisher (71:02)

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