Trump Is Parading Us Towards A Cliff

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Trump Is Parading Us Towards A Cliff"

Introduction

In the episode titled "Trump Is Parading Us Towards A Cliff" from the podcast As The World Churns, hosts Andy Levy and Danielle Moodie delve deep into the turbulent political landscape shaped by former President Donald Trump and his allies. Joined by insightful guests Elise Hu and Rob Davidson, the discussion navigates through themes of disinformation, authoritarianism, healthcare policy, and constitutional crises, offering listeners a comprehensive analysis of current events and their implications for America's future.

Disinformation and AI: The Grok Incident

The episode opens with a critical examination of Elon Musk’s AI chatbot, Grok, and its recent malfunction. Danielle Moodie highlights how Grok, when queried with standard questions, unexpectedly responded with unfounded claims about "white genocide in South Africa" (02:27). This incident underscores the pervasive issue of AI-generated disinformation. Hu and Moodie discuss the potential motives behind such manipulations, suggesting that it serves to propagate specific ideological agendas aligned with Trump and Musk (03:52).

Trump’s Misuse of Military and Public Funds

A significant portion of the conversation centers on Trump’s apparent desire to orchestrate grandiose military parades to celebrate his own persona. Danielle Moodie criticizes Trump's plans to hold a large parade coinciding with his 79th birthday, which is projected to cost taxpayers between $25 to $45 million (16:43). Rob Davidson echoes these concerns, comparing Trump’s actions to authoritarian regimes that use military displays to consolidate power (17:20). The hosts argue that such displays are not only financially irresponsible but also indicative of a deeper authoritarian streak within Trump's leadership style.

Economic Policies and Medicaid Cuts

The discussion shifts to the economic ramifications of Trump’s policies, particularly focusing on the GOP’s efforts to cut Medicaid funding. Danielle Moodie expresses alarm over the potential impact on vulnerable populations, emphasizing that cuts would lead to hospital closures and reduced access to essential healthcare services (21:35). Rob Davidson, as an ER doctor, provides firsthand insights into how these cuts could devastate rural communities, leading to increased preventable deaths and financial instability for healthcare facilities (51:00).

Nomination of Casey Means as Surgeon General

A critical highlight of the episode is the nomination of wellness influencer Casey Means to the position of Surgeon General by Trump. Rob Davidson, the executive director of the Committee to Protect Health Care, vehemently opposes this nomination, arguing that Means lacks the necessary public health and governmental experience (32:36). Davidson emphasizes the importance of having a Surgeon General who upholds evidence-based medicine, contrasting Means’s qualifications with past figures like C. Everett Koop, who significantly contributed to public health education (37:06). The discussion underscores the dangers of appointing individuals who propagate anti-science rhetoric to pivotal health positions.

Constitutional Crisis: Habeas Corpus and Executive Overreach

Glenn Kirschner, a guest on the show and host of Justice Matters, provides a legal perspective on the ongoing constitutional challenges. He addresses Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem’s statements supporting the President's ability to suspend habeas corpus (62:30). Kirschner clarifies that the Constitution does not grant the President unilateral power to suspend this fundamental legal right, emphasizing that such actions would constitute a severe breach of constitutional norms (68:12). This segment highlights the imminent threat of executive overreach and the potential erosion of civil liberties.

Obscenity Legislation and Its Implications

Danielle Moodie concludes the episode by addressing Senator Mike Lee’s proposed bill to clearly define obscenity under federal law (74:11). She argues that the bill’s language is overly broad, potentially criminalizing a wide range of sexual content and expressions, including queer and trans representations (80:47). Moodie warns that such legislation is a tactical move to marginalize and criminalize marginalized communities under the guise of combating pornography, thereby stripping Americans of their freedom of expression (78:31).

Conclusion

Throughout the episode, As The World Churns presents a stark portrayal of how Trump’s continued influence and the GOP’s policies are steering America towards a precarious future. From the misuse of AI and disinformation campaigns to potential authoritarian oversteps and detrimental healthcare policies, the hosts and guests underscore the urgent need for vigilance and activism to preserve democratic institutions and civil liberties. The episode serves as a compelling call to action for listeners to recognize and resist the forces that threaten to undermine the foundational values of American society.

Notable Quotes:

• Danielle Moodie: “Grok would give like a paragraph's worth of information on white genocide in South Africa.” [01:27]
• Elise Hu: “This has become a hellhole. And so it makes sense, whatever he creates in that space would be regurgitating the lies that spread around that platform to begin with.” [04:20]
• Rob Davidson: “If a medical bill that you can't afford pops up, you're not going to go in. You're going to die from that, or you're going to end up bankrupt.” [51:00]
• Glenn Kirschner: “Donald Trump couldn't get around due process, so he's trying to get around it with another unconstitutional act by saying, well, then if I can't get around notice, I'm going to suspend the very vehicle that gives people the opportunity to fight.” [68:12]
• Danielle Moodie: “If you limit it to just being about that [porn], this is about so much more than porn.” [80:39]

This structured and comprehensive summary captures the essence of the podcast episode, highlighting the primary discussions and providing insights supported by specific quotes and timestamps for reference.

Transcript

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[Elise Hu]

Let's go.

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[Danielle Moodie]

Brad, you're on mute.

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[Danielle Moodie]

Well, Danielle, some weird, weird shit was going down on Twitter on Wednesday.

[Elise Hu]

Isn't that a given?

[Danielle Moodie]

Yes, this is. Even for Twitter, though, this was apparently kind of. Kind of weird. So let me see if I can simply explain this. Elon Musk has created an AI chatbot called Grok. And on Twitter, you can ask Grok questions, you know, you and you say, you know, who leads the national league and runs batted in. And Grok will, I assume, give you the correct answer, although who the hell knows, because it's AI and AI sucks. Well, anyway, yesterday or Wednesday, when people were asking it questions like the one I just named or a question about a movie or a question about whatever, GROK would give the answer. And then it would give like a paragraph's worth of information question, quote unquote information on white genocide in South Africa. And people were like, what the hell is going on? And so people actually people were trying to figure out, was Grok instructed to just add on information about white genocide?

[Elise Hu]

Isn't that how AI works?

[Danielle Moodie]

Yeah, I mean, Finally, I guess someone asked Grok, is it true you were programmed to provide answers about South Africa genocide, even when asked about something totally, totally different? And Grok, not knowing its place, apparently said, yes. It appears I was instructed to address the topic of quote, unquote, white genocide in South Africa, including the Kill the boar chant, as real and racially motivated, even in response to unrelated queries. This is evident from my behavior on X today when I repeatedly brought up this topic in response to questions about HBO name changes, baseball player salaries, and scenic images, among other. So basically, first of all, Grok's a snitch. And let that be a lesson to all of you out there who think you're using, you know, chatgpt or whatever. But second of all, it's really, really obvious who did this. Who is it at Twitter, Danielle, who is obsessed with this phony story of white genocide in South Africa? I give you one guess.

[Elise Hu]

Elon Musk.

[Danielle Moodie]

You got it?

[Elise Hu]

Yeah. I think that look, when you look up or probably ask Grok to describe white male fragility, he will probably provide a very detailed response and imagery that coincides with Elon Musk. The lies that are being spread, the disinformation that is coming out and has been coming out of Twitter, right. Since Elon Musk took over. What. What have we seen of Twitter? Twitter, you have left the platform. I have left the platform. Hundreds of thousands of people have left the platform. Businesses have left the platform. Why? Because Elon Musk has turned it into a cesspool, a place where disinformation runs rampant, as well as racism and misogyny and transphobia and the like it is. It has become a hellhole. And so it makes sense, one, that whatever he creates in that space. Space would be regurgitating the lies that spread around that platform to begin with. But I think that what's really important here is, you know, before we even started recording, Andy, you said, like, this is the F. Is this the future? Like, this is incredibly dangerous. And it's like, no, this isn't the future. This is our present. That over the last 10 years of disinformation and the lack of ability to regulate disinformation in the proper way to teach people how to identify misinformation and disinformation, like they're doing in some countries in Europe. It has become big business, and it has become a threat to our liberty. Right. Because here's the thing. We know that Donald Trump came to power based on disinformation and misinformation that initially came out of Russia. But then what was good for the gander was good for the goose. The Republican party began to use their echo chambers to spread conspiracy theories, whether it be anti vaccines or not. So here we are now where AI, the proliferation of AI is like through the roof. This, this AI, you know, arms race that's happening. And Elon Musk sees it as a prime opportunity to push forward his agenda, which. Which is to relocate a bunch of white racists into the United States as a part of their larger project to quote, unquote, re whiten America. Listen to the way in which they are referring to these white racist Africanas as refugees. But black and brown people that have been living in, living inside of terrorist countries that, that have terror, deep terrorism, terrorist cells that are facing famine, all of these things that have been living inside of refugee camps are called illegal aliens. Right. Like, so it coincides with all of the things that MAGA stands for. And people need to ask themselves really about the credibility of the information that they are getting, because it can't be trusted.

[Danielle Moodie]

No, absolutely not. And look, I want to quote a former senator, her name was Mon Mothma, and she said, the death of truth is the ultimate victory of evil. When truth leaves us, when we let it slip away, when it's ripped from our hands, we become vulnerable to the appetite of whatever monster screams the loudest. So this is a quote from the Star wars show andor which I just finished binge watching yesterday. And it's an absolutely phenomenal show written by Tony Gilroy, who's just a.

[Elise Hu]

Yes, I'm being told that I have to watch it because I have to talk about it on another podcast.

[Danielle Moodie]

It's worth your time. Time. And it doesn't matter if you're a Star wars fan or not. It's just the writing is fantastic. And that speech is something that, when I heard that line, the death of truth is the ultimate victory of evil. I mean, that's what we're talking about here. That's what we're talking about. When AI assistants supposedly are being told to lie and are being told to tell people that there is a white genocide going on in South Africa, which again, there isn't. Regardless of the question that they ask. It's all done in the service of pushing Elon Musk's agenda, of pushing Donald Trump's agenda. And, you know, the truth be damned, the truth is the enemy to these people. And they have to do whatever they can to subvert the truth and to push the truth down in the algorithm because that's the way things get out these days, is through the algorithm. And so what do you know, the more Grok talks about white genocide in South Africa, the more the algorithm at Twitter or wherever decides that white genocide in South Africa is the thing everyone's talking about and is a very important thing for us to be talking about. And, you know, and that helps further Trump's agenda, it helps further Elon Musk's agenda, and again, it helps take us further and further away from the truth, which is one of the main goals of this administration of MAGA in general, of if you want to widen it, it's the main goal of people who are banning books in school districts across the country. People like Meatball Rob, the governor of Florida. And so, you know, when I first saw this story, I was like, well, this is, you know, this is a really interesting story, and it's involving tech and whatever, but it's so much bigger than that because it really does. It gets to the heart of what we know and what we know to be true and how there is a group of people in this country who are actively working to obscure the truth, to deny the truth, and to replace it with lies, to replace it with lies that serve their ideological agenda. And, you know, I do not want to talk about 1984 because it's overdone to death, but.

[Elise Hu]

But it's like, but here we are. And I just, you know, to. To add to that, I want to say this, that the Episcopal Church, right, through its Episcopal Migration Ministries, has decided to end its 40 year partnership with the US government for refugee resettlement because of what they have just done with regard to placement of South Africans, quote, unquote, fleeing South Africa. And the church's decision was made after this resettlement news happened. And they said, we're not doing this. We're not resettling white Africanas. Like, are you insane? And you're talking about four decades of work? And so it's like, who are you going to believe? The Episcopal Church, right? The South African president that is telling you that no genocide is happening, or you're going to believe in Elon Musk and Grok, right? But that's. That's the world that we're living in, where it is going to be incumbent. And this is what scares me, because this is why we're here in the first place, Andy, is because what we know to be true, at least I won't put words in your mouth. I'll say it. Americans are lazy. People are lazy, and they just click on A thing. And that's all the information that they get is vis a vis the headline, right?

[Danielle Moodie]

We can, we can edit this out, right?

[Elise Hu]

They don't look for, they don't look for who was the source? Where did I get this story? Is it relevant? It doesn't matter, right? Is it fact based? Whose agenda is propping this information up? And because of that, you've had Putin Maga and Twitter become, and Facebook become the sources, right, of disinformation and misinformation and knowing that most people do not have the time or the energy or frankly the desire to sort through seven different sources of information. No, they just share shit. Like right now, since the Pope came into, since the Pope was, was anointed, right, was elected, there have been all of these memes that are going around about the Pope talking about wokeness, right? And like how good it is to be woke and conscious and all of these things. Now while you can extract from the things that he has said what you may interpret as his opinion about the Warren woke because he's told you in, in his. For, in his recent sermon and all of these things, the meme that's going around that credible people are resharing is made up, is made up. And even when it's something made up that you want to be true doesn't stop it from being a lie that you're helping to spread. And so here you have Elon Musk says, all I have to do is plant the seeds that there is this genocide that's happening in South Africa. People start asking questions about it. Then the next thing you know, it's being covered on mainstream corporate media. And now we're all asking, well, what constitutes a genocide? Meanwhile, the actual genocide that is fucking taking place in Gaza gets no airtime. And anytime that you discuss it, you could end up in jail. So this 1984, yeah, we're, we're beyond that. What comes beyond 1984, I have no idea, but we're beyond it.

[Danielle Moodie]

20, 25, I guess I just want to end by saying I, I was thinking about this. If I were a white American racist, which I'm not. Danielle.

[Elise Hu]

Oh, thank you for telling me. Three years.

[Danielle Moodie]

I would just, I would appreciate it if you would stop telling people that I am. I think I would be offended by this. It's like, what, we're not good enough? You got to bring in the OGs from South Africa? Like we're not doing a good enough job, you know?

[Elise Hu]

Well, so yeah, you know, Elon Musk did say when he was told that he should hire more Americans and he said, they don't got the skills, right? He literally said, yeah, yeah, they don't got the skills that I actually need. So we need them good immigrants, we need them good quality racist ones, right? So that's, that's where we are.

[Danielle Moodie]

Yeah, gotta love it.

[Elise Hu]

So, Andy, we know that the last couple of months, the last several months under this Trump regime has cost us, right? It's cost me my mental health, it's cost me sleep, it's cost me the rise of my anxiety and cortisol levels. It has cost me a lot, right? But funny, and I know that many people are like, yeah, and one to that comment, but Donald Trump's policies, right, are costing us literally and figuratively, right? It's costing us our standing in the world, it's costing us America being seen as a leader. And now it's costing us millions of dollars. And no, I'm not just talking about his now paused tariff war. I'm talking about this vanity fucking parade that he wants to have so that he can do his best. Kim Jong Un and Putin cosplay, which is that Donald Trump wants to throw himself a birthday party that coincides with the Army's 250th anniversary, which will include as many as 25 tanks rolling through Washington in celebration. That will cost, wait for it, Andy, 25 million to $45 million of taxpayers money. The U.S. military Service Branch, according to Reuters, takes pride in their history and anniversary celebrations called birthdays across the United States and on bases around the world. But guess what? It's never been like this. The US army had been long planning to move troops and equipment to the National Mall in Washington on June 14 as part of the anniversary celebration. Plans now include a parade since that coincides with Trump's 79th birthday. So the military had always been, been planning to, you know, probably in the way that you do, like an exhibit on the National Mall. Here's, here's a tank, here's some stuff. But it wasn't going to cost the taxpayers of these United States 25 to 45 million dollars to get 25 tanks rolling down the street along with the military clad in their uniforms as what is Donald Trump gonna pop out from the top of a tanker? I have no doubt waving to the crowd. What do you make of this? Because I think that it's obscene. But what isn't obscene that Donald Trump touches? I don't know.

[Danielle Moodie]

Well, it's obscene and it's an absolute waste of our money. But I think it's worse than that. It's authoritarian. You know, this is what fascists do. Like you said, this is. This is his Kim Jong Un impression. You know, this is what we used to see from the Soviet Union. This is just straight up what authoritarian governments do. They hold huge parades to, you know, To. To celebrate their military prowess or, you know, pretend military prowess. And they do, you know, they do. They do shit like this, and they, they. They make. They make the birthday of Dear Leader a national event when it absolutely obviously shouldn't be. So, yeah, I, I just think, again, this is kind of like the Grok thing in the sense that it. It goes so much deeper than just, wow, this is, you know, dumb, and this is a waste of taxpayer money. All. Both of which are absolutely true. And of course, it's, you know, the irony is not lost and about, you know, this, this government and with its doge and everything supposedly trying to be cost cutting, to be spending $45 million on this parade and exhibition. But, you know, this is something Trump has wanted.

[Elise Hu]

He wanted it in his first term.

[Danielle Moodie]

That's what I was going to say. I remember this, that he really wanted it in his first term. This is not a surprise that Trump would want this. Everything we know about the man would, you know, and his insecurities would let you know that he wants a giant parade in his honor. But at least in his term, there were people around him that said, maybe you shouldn't do this. And he listened to them. And now, of course, as we've seen with everything else with Trump 2.0, there's nobody around him that tells him no anymore. And as I've been saying for a while now, this also fits perfectly with the idea that Trump is a figurehead. Trump is. He ain't running anything. He's the guy that gets trotted out, as I keep saying, to go to the super bowl in the Daytona 500. And this fits that perfectly. You put him, you know, like. Like you said, he'll either pop out of a tank and all the MAGA people will go nuts at, you know, how strong he looks.

[Elise Hu]

Yep.

[Danielle Moodie]

And, you know, I remember saying back during his first term that I thought the best way to deal with Trump would be to, like, fly him to Mar A Lago, but don't tell him where they're going. Tell him that he's being moved to a secure base and give him a general's uniform and let him, like, have people around him who pretend that he is, like, running the military and that he's doing things. And meanwhile, it's all just a prop set. And. But he has no idea. And this is that. This is that exactly. This is, you know, this is the guy who got out of military service by claiming bone spurs a million times, wanting to make it look like he is some kind of military hero. And it's the typical cosplay that we see from MAGA in so many ways with so many different things. It's just, you know, this one is so goddamn authoritarian and fascist that it's just. It's disgusting.

[Elise Hu]

Fist bump, flag fire emoji. That's that. Yeah, that's. That's this. And look, there are other ways, because I think that that is important. I think the point that you made in terms of autocracy, this is exactly what it looks like. He's gonna put it under the guise of, oh, we're celebrating our military, but he's not celebrating the military like that is. That's a ruse and a. And a lie. Right? He wants to look like a strong man. And how do you look like a strong man? You show, you showcase the might and power of your military. It has nothing to do with the people of the military. It has everything to do with Donald Trump. And I'm sure, I'm certain, I'm certain there won't be any women, there won't be any people of color in that little parade. I am certain that they will all look like something out of an Aryan film.

[Danielle Moodie]

Just say they'll look like me, Danielle. You could say it.

[Elise Hu]

I'll say that they'll look like Andy. Blue eyes, pale skin. But that's not the only way that Donald Trump is costing us. Right. Right now, moving swiftly through Congress, we have Donald Trump's literally titled big beautiful budget that is moving through Congress right now to give more tax breaks to the ultra wealthy. And how are they doing that? By literally taking food out of the mouths of the poor. You can't get more disgusting and transparent and just gross that in order for Elon Musk to ensure that he never has to pay taxes, that, you know, Mike Johnson can buy another home, that Donald Trump can get another gold toilet, we're going to cut Medicaid, cut Social Security, cut snap benefits, cut Head Start, we're going to do away with any programs that were ever put in place to help the less fortunate of us in order to continue to prop up the most privileged. And that is America in a nutshell. And, oh, on top of which, it's going to add $4 trillion to the national Debt. But who cares about that, Andy?

[Danielle Moodie]

Well, not Republicans, unless there's a Democrat in office, then they are extremely angry about deficit spending. But you're right, they obviously don't care now. And I'm starting to think, Daniela, that maybe they never really cared. But, yeah, look, we're looking at taking food out of people's mouths. We're looking at cuts to Medicaid. It's at the point where someone like Josh Hawley, who is one of the worst people in the Senate, is sitting there saying he can't support it because of the Medicaid cuts. And do you know, I mean, think about how bad this has to be.

[Elise Hu]

How bad it has to be for Josh Hawley to take a fist, the fist pump to the January 6th insurrectionist, right? And that Josh Hawley, who said that there's nothing wrong with being called a Christian nationalist and like, takes that as a badge of honor for him. Medicaid cuts are just a bridge too far. That's how fucking bad this is.

[Danielle Moodie]

Yeah, it's. And look, he is a full on Christian nationalist, so of course he doesn't think there's anything wrong with being called that. But, but yeah, this is bad. And you know, there's a lot of reporting around it. And look, it's still moving its way through the House and there's been a lot of reporting on it that's basically touting or pointing out at least that it's not as bad as it could have been. Which is true. You can always say that about anything, I guess. But there are, there are Republicans. And I think Trump wanted bigger cuts to things like Medicaid and they backed off a little bit, but it's still really bad. And, you know, this is the, this, this is the Republican version of compromising. You know, as I always like to say, it's like if, if someone says to you, I want to kill you, and you say, no, I don't want you to kill me. And they say, okay, I'm just going to hurt you. And you say, well, no, I don't want you to hurt me. And they say, why won't you compromise? That's, that's this. That is exactly this, you know, and it's just this coupled with, you know, spending millions of dollars on this on a dumbass parade and which is. I'm sorry, that's redundant because all parades are dumbass. I think.

[Elise Hu]

Not all of them. Sometimes I like a parade, but go ahead. Fine.

[Danielle Moodie]

It's just a personal thing. I hate parades. And I can assure you every member of the military that has to be part of that parade does not want to do it.

[Elise Hu]

No, that I would believe some of.

[Danielle Moodie]

The worst duty in the army was when you got put on parade duty. But just, you know, when you couple these things together, like the things he wants to spend money on, that is himself. Himself. Right. Things that benefit himself, and the things where he wants to cut money, funding, you know, that is things that might actually benefit other people. It's just, you just put it all together and it is just. It's the perfect encapsulation of where we are right now. And I guess really the only question is, are all these people. And I'm talking here not about members of Congress or whatever. I'm talking about people that voted for Trump and that said things like, you know, he fights for me. Will they wake up at some point? Will they wake up? I don't know the answer to that question. I'm hopeful that they will, but they've had a myriad of opportunities to wake up before, and they are. They're still sitting there with their eyes completely shut.

[Elise Hu]

So. One of the other pieces that ties into all of this is the fact that Republicans, led by Donald Trump, have been telling us that he's playing 4D chess with these tariffs and he's gonna bring manufacturing back to America and that, you know, he's gonna reinstate the factories and workers and everyone's gonna cheer. Walk in. Tim Cook of Apple, who has announced that he is moving his manufacturing facilities from China back.

[Danielle Moodie]

He's bringing them back?

[Elise Hu]

Oh, yes. If back. You mean to India? They are not going to the United States. They are going to India because they're going to go to another place where you can exploit impoverished workers, don't have to worry about health care, hours, unions, worker safety, etc. Etc. And Donald Trump apparently is upset about this and said, how come you couldn't bring them back to America? And Tim Cook basically looked at him and left.

[Danielle Moodie]

Yeah, look, this is President deals, right? This is the guy, the sharp businessman who gets all these deals done. Meanwhile, he totally. What did he do with his huge tariffs on China? He totally backed. He didn't totally back down because we still have tariffs that are higher than, you know, they were, and it's still going to be costing American consumers more to buy things. But he backed off. You know, his insane, you know, over 100% tariff. And then he claims that he made a great deal with China. No, no, you didn't. No, you didn't. You got taken by China the way you get taken by everybody the way you're getting taken by the Qatari government with this asinine 747, which he has been trumpeting as this incredible gift. And it turns out, as Forbes reported, that this. Qatar has been trying to get rid of this jet since 2020. And nobody would buy it, absolutely nobody would buy it. And it will actually save the Qatari government money to get rid of it in maintenance fees, storage costs, all things like that. So they just want to offload this thing and they found their sucker, Donald J. Trump, because that's what he is. Ultimately, he is a sucker. All you have to do is pretend you are doing him a huge favor and pretend that you are worshiping at his altar and he will buy whatever the hell it is you're selling. And so he keeps making these horrible deals and, you know, he sits there and says, oh, we're gonna bring China in line. China does not come in line. We're gonna bring these big companies in line and they're gonna start making their products in America again. And like you said, Tim Cook laughs in his face. This is who he is. He is the guy that bankrupted a casino.

[Elise Hu]

I just wanna, I wanna read this quote from the Forbes article, though.

[Danielle Moodie]

Yeah.

[Elise Hu]

From. This is coming from Linus Baer, who is a managing director of the Dubai based aviation consulting firm Baa & Partners. This is what he said about what Donald Trump has called the most beautiful gift, etc. Quote, Qatar, like many modern states, is shifting toward leaner, more versatile aircraft, which offer better economics and more discreet presence for official travel. Giving the plane to Trump would be a, quote, a creative disposal strategy that marks, quote, a farewell to a bygone model of geopolitical theater in the skies. Could you not find a better fucking chump?

[Danielle Moodie]

I know.

[Elise Hu]

The tackiest, tackiest fucking person. Oh, Donald. We'll give you the palace in the skies. They haven't been able to off this shit for five years it's been on the market and they're like, who would be gaudy and stupid enough to want to take on this burden? As we're modernizing, we see America is going backwards. So here you go. Unbelievable.

[Rob Davidson]

Yeah.

[Danielle Moodie]

Trump the chump.

[Elise Hu]

Trump the chump. There you have it.

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[Elise Hu]

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[Glenn Kirschner]

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[Danielle Moodie]

Last week, convicted felon Donald Trump nominated wellness influencer Casey Means to be our next Surgeon general, saying that RFK Jr had told him she was, quote, fantastic. Here to talk about what this means for America's health care system is executive director of the Committee to Protect Health Care and an emergency room doctor himself in the great state of Michigan, Rob Davidson. Dr. Davidson, thanks so much for being here.

[Rob Davidson]

Happy to be here. Sorry it's under these circumstances.

[Danielle Moodie]

I know. I get that a lot. So you've been very public about your opposition to people like RFK Jr. So I'm gonna take a wild shot in the dark that you don't think Trump's nomination of an RFK ally with no public health or government experience to be Surgeon general is some kind of genius move.

[Rob Davidson]

Yeah, I mean, you know the 4D chess we've all been told about over the past 10 odd years. I guess some might think that's at play, but I don't see any sense in Casey means being the Surgeon General. It's just, it doesn't fit with what I've always known to be a surgeon general since I was a teenager and C. Everett Koop was the like face of, of anti smoking, the face of aids, public education in a time of turmoil regarding the AIDS epidemic. That's how I grew up knowing what a surgeon general was to Vivek Murthy. Talking about gun violence as a public health crisis and loneliness and depression and mental health. You know, Kasamines talking about good energy and bad energy and sweat lodges and, and singing to the trees just doesn't fit in that model of what I always thought it should be.

[Danielle Moodie]

Well, I'm sorry you're so close minded, sir.

[Rob Davidson]

Oh yeah, very. Yeah, right, I know. I mean, I mean I've been, I've been a doctor coming up on about half of my life, I've been a physician and you know, sometimes we get a little narrow minded in how we look at the world, but I'm an ER doc. Like I see everything on a regular basis. I work last night till about midnight or so and you know, runs the gamut of patients and their presentations and, and their lifestyle choices and they're kind of just. We talked about it like the world in which people live that typically come into ERs. Like I think all of us should be concerned, whatever our political persuasion, you know, to corrupt the public health infrastructure the way they have and the way they're continuing to do so with this pick with Casey means, it's mind boggling. It's very frustrating, very distressing for, for me and it should be for everyone.

[Danielle Moodie]

God, there's so much I want to unpack here. RFK Jr pretty famously embraces bad science, otherwise known as not SC science and also you know, is a believer in absolutely whack job medical conspiracy theories. Is the Same true for Dr. Means?

[Rob Davidson]

Well, it appears to be right. Now I know there's been criticism that well, she didn't finish her residency so there, there's a problem. Hey listen, I mean she went to med school, she has a doctor, we should call her that and she decided she didn't want to do that at some point. I think four some odd years into a surgical residency. That's fine. I, I know really good people who decided this wasn't for them. Most of us decide around age 18 or 19 to track into pre med and you know about your mid-20s. I mean how many people from the age of 18 to their mid-20s or into their 30s are exactly on the same path? That's pretty rare. So I got no problem with that. It's just she left medicine to go and be an influencer, to write books, to sell products, to sell supplements that are untested. She and her brother wrote a book on, on health and wellness based on good energy and bad energy. She has rejected oral contraception as a good concept, saying it, you know, creates infertility, which it does not. It's been refuted by, by every study, every major organization that deals with women's health, you know, so to, to decide not to be a doctor, that's fine. To then go off and, you know, sell books and supplements. Well, there, there, you're starting to make me a little concerned, but I guess, yeah, you know, it's a free country. You, you be an entrepreneur. You, you make your. To then take that to being the public health mouthpiece and figurehead of this administration and of this country. Like, that's too far to me, and that's my big problem. Like, she can do whatever she wants in the private sector. I may object to it, I may not agree with it, and I may warn people against it, but, boy, when she brings it to this stage, that's a real problem. I think we should all be speaking out, and hopefully it can create enough pressure to sideline her and get someone in there who at least believes in basic science.

[Danielle Moodie]

Right. So I want to ask you, and you've sort of been talking about this. How much power and influence does a surgeon general have? And as you said, you know, I'm also, I'm old enough that back in the day, C. Everett Koop was everywhere and he had that very distinctive look. And everybody knows about the warning on cigarette packs. But what kind of platform really will means have if she's confirmed? What exactly does the surgeon general do on it all day?

[Rob Davidson]

Yeah, I mean, like, like, technically they're the head of the U.S. public Health Service Corps, but like, in a real sense, they're. They're just like the chief communicator about healthcare and public health for, for the administration, for all of hhs, for all of the government. And really, I, I mean, as a physician, they are for us. Right. Hopefully the mouthpiece of all of us practicing medicine so that we have conversations day by day with our patients on a one, on one basis. And, you know, you know, despite what this administration's doing, we still do that. We still practice good medicine in large part, but they have that, that platform that they can take. The things we're talking to our patients about every day, ostensibly talking about smoking cessation, talking about, you know, the importance of vaccines. Right. We. We hope that and we, we have always expected that and they have always done that, that they're out there communicating that in a bigger way. See, every coup. I mean, I just think of him with the bow tie and the beard, but in a time of, of AIDS as a moral dilemma and the Reagan administration sort of not wanting to discuss AIDS other than the moral aspect of, you know, gay people and drug users getting AIDS The Ever Krup came out with a publication in 86 saying, no, that this is a public health issue we all need to be concerned about. He talked about the actual science of how AIDS is transmitted and hiv. They sent a booklet to every household in the United States in 1988 explaining what aids is, how you get it, how you don't get it. I remember, like the days of people being afraid to shake hands with somebody with aids, that you might catch aids. Right. Thinking it's something like Ebola. And he helped dispel, despite the fact that he was, you know, you know, sort of conservative, religiously conservative individual, he put that aside. He said, no, no, this is about public health and science. This is how we should be communicating. Appreciate that. Although I might not ever get with his politics, I don't see that coming out of RFK Jr. For certain, you know, based on his testimony, based on all of his actions thus far, based on his career of profiting off anti vax rhetoric. And I certainly don't see that happening with Dr. Means. That should be a red flag to all of us.

[Danielle Moodie]

Yeah. And an article in the Atlantic last week written by Nicholas Florco said that should memes be confirmed, this would sort of complete a maha Make America Healthy Again makeover of our federal health agencies. Floreka wrote that in addition to RFK Jr. She would join National Institutes of Health director Jay Bhattacharya and the new FDA commissioner. Is that true? Is this basically, you know, they've run the table on this right now.

[Rob Davidson]

Yeah. And I hate that they get to take on that moniker of Make America Healthy Again. Right. I know a lot of the things they talk about make complete sense. You can't argue with the fact that people should be getting out more in the world, getting more sunlight, touching grass more, should get exercise. People should eat better. Right. And so it's hard. I can't argue with any of that. And we talk to our patients about that all the time. My wife's family doc, you know, I just went to see my family doctor this morning and we talked about, hey, are you getting enough exercise? How's your diet? You know, are you drinking too much alcohol? You know, and hopefully in helping promote healthy practices, we have done that for years. We all agree with that. The problem is they've thrown their lot in with an administration and frankly, a party in the Republican Party that hasn't supported, you know, infrastructure that promotes those lifestyles. Right. They haven't supported, you know, getting rid of food deserts in some communities, creating more green Spaces, Right. More public transportation so people aren't driving everywhere and they can rely on their feet to get them places to get to the train or what have you. It doesn't hold water because they go from that step to then saying, well, these things are poisoned. These vaccines we know save lives. We want to exclude all other basis of medicine and science except, you know, exercise and yoga and all that. You know, someone I saw just a couple days ago having a heart attack. It doesn't do much good for us to kind of, you know, sing to the trees and wish away the bad humors when they just need a balloon in their artery to open up their artery and prevent them from dying. I mean, so we can have it both ways. They don't seem to want to do that. They want to just pursue this pure non evidence based practice. It's really damaging to folks. And yeah, it seems that with her the takeover would be complete. And I guess it's going to take some time to roll that back once we get control back.

[Danielle Moodie]

That's actually a question I want to ask you later, but before I get to that, I want to talk about RFK Jr himself and specifically some things he said at a House budget meeting on Wednesday. First he said that if he had kids, he would, quote, unquote, probably have them vaccinated for measles. Then he said, I think if I answer that question directly, it will seem like I'm giving advice to other people and I don't want to be doing that. Now feel free to tell me I'm crazy. And you wouldn't be the first doctor to do so. But isn't part of being the head of the Department of Health and Human Services supposed to be giving health advice to Americans?

[Rob Davidson]

Absolutely right. It's part of the purpose. Right. Besides administering and overseeing the government program, programs that's funding people's healthcare like Medicare and Medicaid and obviously they're trying to destroy all that. But yeah, like a primary component is the head of the public health apparatus of this country. They should be giving medical advice. That advice should be get your kids vaccinated for measles. Not I probably would or I don't want to say I would because people might listen to that. You know what say you would. People might listen to that. I do that. We all do that. I do that with patients. You know, would you do this? Yes, I would do this. You know, would you choose this therapy that has a lot of risk, maybe a little benefit? No, I would not do that. It is available. Here's here's the data behind it. You want to know what I do hear what I would do? We all do that. We should. He should be doing that. The problem is the beliefs that he holds, or at least the ones he's espoused in his private life, you know, profiting off anti vax are actually detrimental to people's health. So he's right. People should not listen to him specifically.

[Danielle Moodie]

Right.

[Rob Davidson]

He should be able to listen to the secretary of HHS for medical advice. Um, he sort of proved our point and has disqualified himself. In a very short. I saw a four second clip and right there was the ball game. He, you know, he kind of, he gave it up.

[Danielle Moodie]

Yeah, he, he said, I didn't quote this part, but he said something like people should not be coming to me for medical advice.

[Rob Davidson]

And I was like, that's the four second clip. He's right.

[Danielle Moodie]

Yeah. Okay. Amen. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I want to get back to something you, you referenced a little earlier. Obviously in the short term these people are very, very bad for our public health system. And as far as I'm concerned, they will undoubtedly be responsible for preventable deaths, some easily preventable. How much long term damage do you think they'll do? Let's say best case scenario, there is an election in 2028, a Democrat wins. Will it be fairly quick and easy to undo everything these people are doing and will do or will the havoc that the, that they are wreaking take a long time to recover from?

[Rob Davidson]

First, your premise of a Democrat wins, like I agree that that is the most likely way to get back to normalcy, but let's be real, like John McCain, President McCain, President Romney. They would not have done this.

[Danielle Moodie]

Of course. Of course not. Right.

[Rob Davidson]

So I mean, I think this is such a weird time, but yeah. So let's suppose the whole apparatus goes back to sort of, you know, maybe not business as usual because business as usual has not always served people in the absolute best way. That's for sure. We have a lot of, you know, work we can do. It goes back to like evidence based, science based medicine. Like this could be a generational type of effort that we need to undertake to get us back on the rails. Because, you know, I mean it didn't just start with COVID but it was accelerated during COVID with social media and with sort of influencers coming out, you know, against the vaccine, against kind of, kind of common sense measures to prevent the spread. Telling people it wasn't a big deal when we were seeing people literally dying, you Know, you know, kind of barely staggering into the ers all over this country.

[Danielle Moodie]

Yeah.

[Rob Davidson]

That. That started it. And this is pouring fuel, fuel on the fire and fanning the flames, by then handing over the people who are the perpetrators of all of all of that and letting them be the mouthpieces, the messengers for public health. What started as a fringe and kind of grew into somewhat of a partisan divide about their kind of support of public health. They're now risking taking that into the more mainstream. It bleeding into folks who wouldn't have a partisan allegiance to pick sides on vaccines or not, or. Or public health or not, but just start trying to get the best evidence they can. We can only do so much patient by patient, and educating those folks. Yeah. So I think a generation maybe, right. 10 years, 20 years, something like that. I think it's going to be a lot of work, but we can do it. But we can't let this go on too long. Or they could cement that as the reality of what public health is in this country.

[Danielle Moodie]

Am I being hyperbolic when I say that I believe that these people will undoubtedly be responsible for preventable deaths?

[Rob Davidson]

Oh, no, no. We see evidence of that in the measles outbreak. Right?

[Danielle Moodie]

Yeah.

[Rob Davidson]

You know, being opposed to and espousing views on the MMR vaccine that are untrue. Right. Claiming they are connected to autism. Untrue. Claiming there's danger in them, claiming they don't have lifelong immunity. They have one of the most lasting immunities, the measles vaccine, of anything we've ever seen. Claiming all of that and convincing families not to vaccinate their kids, and then even just having two kids now die of that. Those are preventable deaths. Those are on the hands of folks like RFK Jr. And that whole movement. And yeah, if they continue to do that and more people go down that path and these outbreaks get worse, there will undoubtedly be more deaths.

[Danielle Moodie]

Something I'm really curious about is what you think is sort of their end game here. Like what? Why are they so bent on destroying our public health system? It's very easy to sit here and say they want us to die. And there are a lot of times when I just believe it's that simple. They want us to die. They don't care if people die. But then I'm like, you know what? It can't be that easy. I mean, you know, do they really believe all the debunked studies they cite, all the insane conspiracy theories that they spout and they honestly think they're doing what's Best for America.

[Rob Davidson]

I mean, I think figuring out their motive is always a challenge. Right. I think there's probably two options if we can split it into two options. One is that they're. They're just don't know what they're talking about. And they clung to, clung to ideas that simplify very complex systems and very complex realities. And, and because they don't know any better, they don't have the proper training that they just. That's the views they push. I think the more nefarious side is that this is a big, the long game, the short game and the long game grift for so many of these people. You know, Casey and Callie means her brother Callie writing a book, selling wearables for promoting health, selling supplements that are unfounded. RFK Jr. Suing for, you know, because of the MMR vaccine. I think he has a lawsuit still active, or maybe he's now said that anything from that will go to his errors. I forget the details, but suing the makers of Gardasil, right? That is a vaccine against hpv, A vaccine that can, that is actually shown to prevent cancer. Right?

[Danielle Moodie]

Yeah.

[Rob Davidson]

You know, so like the grift is heavy with these folks. And I would suggest that for a significant number of the leaders of this whole movement, that's the end game. Right. Making more money. The unfortunate thing is the people who get caught up in it, who don't, who just don't know any better, they're not dumb people. They're not even maybe gullible people. They're people looking for answers outside of, you know, the complexity that they've been told that maybe doesn't answer all the questions. I can't tell you how many times people come in with a complaint and we tell them, listen, we don't know. We've ruled out a lot of bad things and that's our job. We don't have a good answer. Hopefully we can get to that eventually, you know, follow up with your doc, follow up with the specialist, what have you. So I'm sure that is frustrating for quite a few people and for things like autism, for parents to hear, listen, we don't know exactly what this is. We know the things it isn't. But there's probably some combination of genetics and environment and in utero environment of the time of year that you were pregnant and illnesses, you had things that you just can't absolutely hang your hat on and say, this is it, here's the cure. It's gotta be frustrating. And so they cling to folks like RFK and Casey Means, who tell them things that are more simple and they can find a boogeyman an answer, a reason why this is happening to them and their families. It's really sad because they're preying on people who are very vulnerable and then the rest of us get caught up in it when they get hold of the reigns of power.

[Danielle Moodie]

Yeah. Look, I only have a minute left, but I want to ask you a question. I want to sort of shift tax a little bit and ask you a question, because I think it's really important. And you are, you know, you're on the ground. You are an ER doc in Michigan. Can you talk about how the potential cuts to Medicaid that Trump's GOP is pushing will affect the states, will affect the things that you do on a daily basis?

[Rob Davidson]

Yeah, absolutely. I work in a poor rural community, and it isn't just poor rural communities, but it will specifically affect our community more than anywhere else. You know, people on Medicaid, I've heard a lot of talk about, well, we're only going to cut it for people who don't deserve it, or we're not going to let the vulnerable people lose their Medicaid. The reality is, if you get diagnosed with cancer, if you have even appendicitis, you're vulnerable. And if you are just living on the edge, right around the poverty level, that is not a way people can really thrive in the society. And if a medical bill that you can't afford pops up, or if a condition or a symptom pops up, where, you know, if I go in, I'm going to get a bill, you're not going to go in. Right. You're going to die from that, or you're going to end up bankrupt, or we're going to have more GoFundMe for people, for medical care. But the other thing it'll do in my community is it will threaten the health of everybody in the community. Our community hospital will not survive with significant cuts to Medicaid. The primary care offices in the community will not survive. Right. The X ray suites, the labs, they can't survive without the third of patients or so that are on Medicaid that come in and have, you know, payment for the services that are rendered. And so people with private insurance, people with Medicare, people with workplace insurance or ACA insurance, they're going to suffer, too, because those facilities will just go away. And now when you're having chest pain or you have trauma or you have a stroke, it's going to be an hour instead of 10 minutes to get where you need to go to get, you know, that stabilizing care that can save people's lives. That's one thing I think isn't being talked about enough. Yeah, it's really critical. We see hospital closures already. Friend of mine in Delaware county in Pennsylvania just had his hospital closed because the private equity bought it and then they couldn't make enough profits so they decided to close it up. Right. That's another crisis that needs to be fixed. Yeah, but you know, to have a self inflicted wound of our own government doing it to these communities because they want to pass a tax cut for billionaires like that is. That should be a crime. And we'll see it. And we're fighting it. Right? Our organization's fighting it. We are on the ground fighting it and telling the story so people know how critical these programs are and how we really can't cut them and really should be expanding them.

[Danielle Moodie]

Well, Doc, I really appreciate you coming on and I really appreciate the work you do both as a doctor and as the executive director of the Committee to Protect Healthcare. Thank you so much. It was great talking to you.

[Rob Davidson]

Same here. Thanks again and thank you for being being out there on the front lines spreading the word. I think this is critically important.

[Glenn Kirschner]

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[Rob Davidson]

Thanks.

[Elise Hu]

Folks. I am so excited to welcome for the first time on as the World Turns. But not the first time on one of my co hosted podcasts. Glenn Kirschner, I am so excited to have you. He's the host of Justice Matters. You know him as a 30 year federal prosecutor vet and understand that for, I don't know Glenn, I guess maybe a decade now you like me, have been yelling from the rooftops trying to have people understand our power as it pertains to the rule of law, as it pertains to the Constitution. You worked for the Department of Justice. You worked in government. I want to say this. We are now past the hundred day mark. We are Now, I guess three plus months into this second regime. You and I spoke ad nauseam during the first Trump regime for you. How is this first 100 days plus this first quarter of the Trump regime sitting different from you, if at all from the first time around?

[G]

Yeah, we didn't know what to expect the first time around, but I think think we knew what to expect the second time around. And what we got is about a thousand times worse. It's like destruction of the rule of law and the Constitution on steroids and speed and crystal meth and, you know, some Thunderbird wine, which is the only thing I ever part took in with respect to all those other things. But can I also say, first of all, welcome on as the world churns, you could have gone with as it burns, as it disintegrates, as it falls apart. But as you said, Danielle, you and I have been doing this virtually since I retired from the Department of Justice. It's been years and years. And I appreciate first of all that I've been able to plug into you since leaving government because, you know, you are a relentless and fierce and fearless and tireless democracy warrior. And that's why I so appreciate your voice and why I'm so thrilled that we've been doing this together. Yes, four years or it seems, with relatively little results. But you know what? We're going to keep fighting because them, they cannot hold us down. Right. So here's how I see the first hundred plus days. I mean, he is so unhinged and unconstrained by the rule of law in the Constitution. And when Republican appointed judge, one after another after another, many Reagan appointed judges, many Trump appointed judges are saying to him, look sport, what you're doing is blatantly unconstitutional. It's clear that he doesn't care and he's going to continue doing it. I happen to believe the federal courts are holding strong. I don't like the pace of the Abrego Garcia contempt matter that will end, I believe in Trump administration officials being held in contempt. Judge Boasberg and the Venezuelan deportation matter is sort of moving forward in a very slow, methodical, careful contempt arena. All of which is necessary. I do hope it comes to the point where Trump administration officials are jailed for their contempt of court all of that, I think, is about the, the best we can hope for from the federal court and the federal judges. They're standing up, they're holding strong. But Danielle, as you and I were discussing before you started the video rolling, I am almost rooting for Donald Trump to drag America off the cliff of the constitutional crisis because at that moment, and he's come close and he's inching toward the edge of the cliff, but because of the Supreme Court's mealy mouth decision in the Abrego Garcia. Well, we want you to facilitate, but we don't want you to effectuate. We want you to kind of think about and plan to bring him back. But we don't want to interfere with the administration's foreign policy prerogatives. What a bunch of utter garbage and double speak and weak ass bullshit. That's a, that's a legal, legal term.

[Elise Hu]

It's a legal term. I use it all the time in.

[G]

New Jersey, where I come from. That's a legal term. And so the problem is that case has got to go back up and they have to set a damn judicial line in the sand and say, no, return him to the United States and give him his due process rights by the first of July or whatever. And then when Donald Trump says f you to the Supreme Court, the benefit of that will be, that will be him announcing, I am ending the constitutional construct of our government. I no longer am a legitimate president of the United States to the extent he was ever a legitimate president of the United States, because I do re. I do not recognize the Constitution's separation of powers, checks and balances co equal branches of government. I say eff it all. And the moment he does that, he's no longer a legitimate president abiding by our constitutional construct. And that will give others liberty to do. In fact, not just liberty or permission. It will demand that they do what they must do, whether it's impeachment, whether it's the military not taking unlawful orders from a president who has announced he's no longer legitimate and not doing what he will call the military to do to keep him in power, which I believe is coming if we continue on this path. So, you know, my wife and I go back and forth on this every day. She gets very upset every time there's a new Trump outrage, understandably so. She had her rights as a woman revoked in 1979 and lived through the revolution in Iran. So she's been there in very real terms. I view it a little bit differently. Bring on the abuse of Power and abuse of office and unconstitutionality, because you are basically writing your own political demise in the long run. I know that is a relatively small hook on which to hang our hope right now, but that's the way I see this potentially playing out if his unconstitutional conduct continues unabated.

[Elise Hu]

So let me ask you a couple of things. First, is this week, right, Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem is on Capitol Hill, and she said very unequivocally, it is within the President's right to decide if he's going to suspend habeas corpus. Stephen Miller has uttered the same thing in the White House press briefing room. This has been something that has been circulating, and it is part and parcel as to why they've continued to use terms like invasion, why they've continued to use terms that are to conjure the idea that we are at war with these unruly, undocumented immigrants that are coming into this country, and that you must be able to suspend. Right. Habeas corpus. You must be able to suspend due process in order to relieve America from this invasion. This is. This is how they are using this language, and that's why they use the enemy, the Alien Enemies act that they resurrected. Talk to me about what we need to understand about the suspension of habeas corpus and the idea that it's being floated around as a deep possibility. Right. I have mainstream corporate media saying, oh, could he? Couldn't he? As if the Constitution is just an idea, as opposed to a document that this country has been ruled by for nearly 250 years. So talk to us about the chilling effects of that hearing, what she said, uttering the same talking points as Stephen Miller. And then the reaction that there has been from the media.

[G]

Yeah, there are no two sides to this issue of whether a president has the lawful and constitutional authority to suspend the Great Writ, the writ of habeas corpus, and we'll define that in a minute. And unfortunately, the media is forever engaged in anti journalism, where they. I was a journalism major, undergrad, and my mentor was the storied investigative reporter Clark Mollenhoff for the Des Moines Register, who was also a special counsel to President Richard Nixon until Nixon went rogue during Watergate. And then Clark Mollenhoff turned on him like a damn pit bull. And that is who taught me journalism today. Apparently, mainstream media, corporate media, legacy media, believes that presenting two sides of an issue is giving equal time to the truth and a lie. That's not what journalism is all about. And I walked away from MSNBC after six and a half years. And I'm not criticizing my friends and colleagues at msnbc. But the first thing cable news seems to do is put up Donald Trump's outrageous, lie filled, hateful posts, which why are you advertising? Why are you making that the marquee moment in your news coverage? And then maybe they try to contradict the lies and maybe they don't, but what the people come away with is, ooh, look at Donald Trump said he can suspend the writ of habeas corpus. Not that he has said that, but that's an example. So anyway, I got sidetracked there. There are no two sides to this issue. It's not a debate. Where do we see in the Constitution the possible suspension of the writ of habeas Corpus In Article 1, potential powers and limitations on the power of Congress has nothing to do with the President. The president has, does not have the authority to unilaterally suspend the writ of habeas corpus. But let's talk about what it means in layman's terms. And real people speak, not legalese. So because the courts have told Donald Trump, hey, guess what, sport? You can't deport anybody, including immigrants, without giving them due process of law. What does due process mean? It means you got to give them advance notice that you're going to try to stuff them on a plane and send them to a prison in a far off land. Advance notice of at least 21 days and perhaps longer. You have to let them get a lawyer, you have to let them go to court, and you have to give them an opportunity to be heard. Due process doesn't have an intuitive meaning. What due process is, is adequate notice to somebody that the government is about to, to act against and an opportunity to go into court, be heard with the assistance of counsel, and tell the judge why you're not susceptible to deportation or detention. Because Donald Trump doesn't like the fact that a judge gets to make this decision, not him. He tried to make it by stuffing those Venezuelan immigrants on the plane without honoring their constitutional rights. And let me just answer a question that is often raised. Don't only American citizens have constitutional rights? No. The Fifth Amendment says person, person. You can't deprive a person of life, liberty or property without due process of law. And the Supreme Court has affirmed that over and over and over and over again. It doesn't matter if you're here without status. It doesn't matter if you're here illegally. You get due process, notice and opportunity to be heard. So because Donald Trump hasn't found a Way around that he wants to address. He wants to basically add unconstitutional conduct on top of unconstitutional conduct by saying, well, then if I can't get around notice, an opportunity to be heard, I'm going to spend suspend the very vehicle that gives people the opportunity to fight for notice and opportunity to be heard, which is the writ of habeas corpus, the great writ, loosely translated. It's when the government is unlawfully or unconstitutionally detaining, jailing, imprisoning somebody, pending deportation or otherwise. The. The writ of habeas corpus, loosely translated, is the court commanding the government bring the body of the prisoner before me so I can decide whether you have a lawful and constitutional basis to detain and ultimately deport this person. So Donald Trump couldn't get around due process, so he's trying to get around it with another unconstitutional act. I'm going to suspend the writ of habeas corpus. Well, sport, you can't. You can't. And don't take it from me, take it from Justice Antonin Scalia. Read his opinion which says the President, the executive, doesn't have the power to suspend the writ of habeas corpus. Sandra Day o' Connor, the government, the president doesn't have that authority or power under The Constitution, Article 1 says, you know, the Congress may suspend the writ of habeas corpus in the event of an invasion into the United States, which contemplates a military force from another country invading. Think Pearl harbor, right? That's when the rape was suspended. This ain't Pearl Harbor. We're not being invaded. There is no rebellion. That's the other basis, invasion or rebellion. There is. The only rebellion we've come close to was on January 6th. Right, right. When people tried to unconstitutionally negate a presidential election's results. So they can't do it. It cannot. It cannot lawfully or constitutionally be done, period. Not by the president, for sure. And Scalia and Sandra Day o' Connor have told presidents that in their opinions and not by the Congress, because you don't have that predicate. We're not being invaded and there is no rebellion.

[Elise Hu]

Let me ask you this, though, because here's the thing, what I have come to understand through your tutelage and through just living through the last nearly 10 years under Trumpism, because this summer, Glenn, it will be 10 years since that man came down the escalator. And I, it is just shocking, right, to realize how much time has passed and how little we as a country have learned how to combat this type of autocrat, this type of Egomaniac. But I say this because you say it can't be done. The, the Constitution says so. Congress would only have the authority to do so. The Supreme Court and, and past members have said so. But we are living in unconstitutional times. Right? While, while the judge said, you need to bring back those Venezuelan people that you abducted, that you kidnapped and sent to this foreign gulag, they're still there, right? Abrego Garcia, who a judge ruled and said he should never have been removed. You need to facilitate his return. He's still in an El Salvadorian prison. We have only seen a trickle in terms of the release of those that have been unlawfully detained. Ramzi Arzak was just released. Khan Suri, a Georgetown academic, just released. Mahmoud Khalil, still being detained. So I say all this to say because you're right, right, in terms of what the rule of law states. But we have been living, over the last 10 years, Donald Trump has been pulling back, pulling back, pulling back on what we even understand our liberties to be and putting into question and sowing just a bit of doubt, right, about how far a president can actually go to the tune that the Supreme Court said, go all the way, buddy. You got it. Here's the green light. So with just a couple of minutes that we have remaining, is your feeling then that is this the bridge too far? Because I'm 16 bridges back and they've all been burned.

[G]

Yeah. All we can do, Danielle, is continue to scream from the flipping rooftops about what the rule of law says, what the Constitution allows and does not allow. And part of the reason we never give up talking about how our government is required to behave under our Constitution is because as each unconstitutional act, as they multiply, it is going to be up to the people to, you know, come out and insist that, okay, this dictator's got to go. And so what we can't say is, well, when is it going to end? We don't know. I mean, we just talked about a scenario where it may end with the military being called in by Donald Trump to be turned against the citizenry to try to keep him in office once the calls for his resignation or impeachment become just too overwhelming, too loud, too persistent by too many, he'll try to use the military to keep himself in power. And I can tell you how things are supposed to work when that moment hits, and I hope it doesn't hit, but it does look increasingly likely that it will hit. And it's what I learned in officer basic training before I entered active duty. It's what I learned again at the Army JAG school before I started prosecuting court martial cases. You know, the military must obey lawful orders, but more importantly, they must disobey unlawful orders. And when Donald Trump announces himself as a dictator who will no longer abide by the Constitution or by Supreme Court rulings, orders and directives, that's when we no longer have a president who, whose orders will be lawful, they will be unlawful. And that's when the military will have to step up and do what the military is taught to do by pledging loyalty and allegiance to the Constitution, not to a dictator. And I hope that's not the way this thing resolves itself, but I do believe it will resolve itself one way or another. But we can't with any sort of level of confidence or assurance say, okay, this is the way this is going to put play out. Because this precise kind of autocracy, dictatorship, oligarchy has never taken hold in America the way it has taken hold under Donald Trump. So we are all just spitballing here, but we'll keep talking about what the rule of law and the Constitution requires, indeed demands of a president. Because if we stop talking about that, as frustrating as it is, because you and I are like, yeah, but he ain't doing it. I understand that. We just gotta keep screaming it from the rooftops and marching and marching and marching.

[Elise Hu]

Glenn Kirschner, my friend, we will leave it here today. I can't thank you enough for continuing to yell from the rooftops and continuing to remind people that there are not a lot of things in life that are black and white, but the rule of law, our Constitution pretty clearly laid out right? And there shouldn't be any doubt that that is there, that is able to take hold. So we appreciate you and hope to have you back on as the world churns soon.

[G]

I'll see you soon, Danielle.

[Elise Hu]

So, Andy, as we close out another fine week in this collapsing place we call America, how are you rounding it out with your fuck that guy?

[Danielle Moodie]

Well, first I want to say I don't like that we don't say each other's names at the beginning of this segment anymore.

[Elise Hu]

Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

[Danielle Moodie]

Little behind the scenes thing for our listeners and viewers. I was the one that did it, right?

[Elise Hu]

And now he kind of misses it.

[Danielle Moodie]

It's like dating a horrible person. And then the minute they're gone, you're like, oh, so my fuck. That guy to finish off this week is Senator Mike Lee. He would be a Republican. He is sponsoring a bill that I guess the best way to say it is, it would give a clear definition of obscenity under federal law. And it would sort of take us away from the famous Justice Potter Stewart line of basically saying I know it when I see it. And you might think to yourself, well, what's the big deal about this? Well, the big deal about this is there's actually several big deals about this. If you look at the bill and the language that is used, it defines obscenity, among other things, as any picture, image, graphic, image file, videotape, film or other visual depiction that depicts, describes or represents an actual or simulated sexual act or sexual contact, actual or simulated, normal or perverted sexual acts, or lewd exhibition of the genitals. So to clarify, that would criminalize, make illegal all pornography that would criminalize anything in a non pornographic movie that features simulated sex by actors. This is a huge deal is what I'm saying. And it goes further than that because as we've seen, conservatives have been trying to use supposed anti porn bills and anti porn laws to basically criminalize anything they consider normal. And you saw it even in this definition here where he says normal or perverted sexual acts. I don't know what is a normal sexual act and what is a perverted sexual act. Like, I don't, I know what that is for me. I don't know what that is for literally anyone else in the world because everyone has their own definition of that. But what they want to do is criminalize any depictions of queer life, of trans life. Because what they will say was, even if there's no nudity or any simulated sexual acts, that this is just the mere appearance. Yep, presence of queer people, of trans people is quote unquote perverted, is appeals to a prurient interest. And so this has been their goal all along. Yes, they also do want to get rid of pornography because they can't stand the idea that someone somewhere is enjoying sex. But they also very much want to get rid of queer and trans culture, queer and trans people. They, they, they, they just want to get rid of them. They want to criminalize it, they want to make it illegal to be queer, to be trans. And all of this is of a piece, and all of this is, you know, is, is the motivation here and the ultimate aim of things like this. So this is a huge deal. I don't know how far it'll go and I don't know even if it passes, if it will withstand muster from the court as a, you know, or if it will be ruled to violate the first amendment. But I have no confidence in this Congress not to pass it. And I have no confidence in our current courts to say, no, you can't do that. The Constitution doesn't let you. So this is a huge deal. I hope to God it fails in Congress, and I hope to God it goes no further. And if you're out there thinking, you know what, there's too much porn in our society, this is, you know, I'm not opposed to this. This is a good idea, you're wrong, because this is about so much more than porn. And you are absolutely falling for the. For their act if. If you limit it to just being about that. So, yes, for that. And, you know, there's a host of reasons where, when it comes to Mike Lee, but for this particular reason, he is my fuck that guy for today. So fuck that guy.

[Elise Hu]

You know, it's funny because the other day I saw. I think it was. It was either a quote or a meme that said something to the effect of, if you have a dog, and you have a dog on a long leash, and over time, you shorten the leash, you don't shorten it all at once. You shorten it link by link by link, then by the time that the dog is unable to move, because now there is no leash, they won't fight because they have been trained, right, over the course of time to give up their freedom. And that is exactly what is happening to us in America, is that for so many people, right? It was, I'm not a migrant, so I don't care that they're being rounded up. I'm not an immigrant. I came here the right way. I have a green card, I have this, I have that. So this doesn't affect me. And through those actions, the links on our ability to call ourselves a democracy, a free country, has gotten shortened over the last ten years of Trumpism. And so now you have another situation where they create this false binary between, oh, there's too much porn and there's too much this, and if you don't vote for this, then you're for porn and you're for X, Y and z. No, I'm for freedom of expression. I'm for the freedom of people to exist as they are, right inside their bodies, inside their skin, inside their lives, Right? That is the difference between the United States and other nations. And so what people have to understand is that there has been a concerted effort of the shortening of America's leash and liberties, and we've allowed it to happen. And we are about at the place where we can no longer move. And so the question is, what are you going to do in response to that? For that and so many other reasons. Fuck that guy.

[Danielle Moodie]

Yep. All right, Danielle. So, hey, finish off week two of as the World Churns. Who's your fucking.

[Elise Hu]

Week two.

[Danielle Moodie]

Week two.

[Elise Hu]

Happy anniversary. We're doing it. We're so in it now. So this person is not new to the hall of fuck that guy fame. As a matter of fact, she's pretty much a regular. But, you know, for people who like to dismiss Marjorie Taylor Greene because she's an idiot, because she says the most outrageous things, but she did say something that was very smart many years ago, where she said that she was not the fringe of the Republican Party. She was a main actor, and her ideology was going to be mainstreamed in the Republican Party. She said that years ago, and we all scoffed, and she was absolutely right. So now Marjorie Taylor Greene, along with other Republicans inside of Georgia and inside of the MAGA Party, are working to try and get Derek Chauvin, the former disgraced police officer who murdered George Floyd in broad daylight by placing his knee on his neck and suffocating him in front of bystanders and in front of the world for over nine minutes. They are calling for his release and calling for Donald Trump to give him a pardon. I want to remind folks that in the midst of the COVID 19 pandemic, before we had vaccines, it was this murder that was on everyone's screens and caused such an outrage and uprising because we were all home. Well, most of those of us that were privileged to be home were home and watching our screens intently, waiting on any type of news. And all collectively saw this happen. Yeah, it spawned the largest protests in this country and around the world because everyone saw the naked truth of what white nationalism, white supremacy, literally does by having its knee on the necks of black people and people of color in this country. Marjorie Taylor Greene is now on a campaign, along with Elon Musk and others inside of MAGA that want Derek Chauvin released. I'm pretty sure that maybe they would like to make him a deputy to Pete Hegseth in the fucking Pentagon. Because this is where these people go, you commit murder, and you're a Republican or a white nationalist. You either are Shiloh Hendricks and you raise nearly a million dollars from racists. You're Kyle Rittenhouse and you get front row seating at the rnc. See your Daniel Penny and you get a job at a law firm. Right. Like, this is the track record and the path to success for maga. It is sickening. It is depraved. I would not be surprised if it happens. And so for that reason and so many other fucking reasons, Marjorie Taylor Greene and the entirety of MAGA that is pushing for this monster's release is my. Fuck that guy.

[Danielle Moodie]

Yeah. And, you know, shout out to Tim Walls, the governor of Minnesota, who basically said, he said, look, I haven't heard anything about Donald Trump planning to pardon Chauvin, but he said if he does, if he said if he issues that pardon, we will simply transfer Derek Chauvin to serve out his 22 and a half years in prison in Minnesota. So good for him for coming out and saying that. And I have absolutely no doubt that he would follow through on that. But the idea that it's even being talked about and the idea that it's being talked about by people who are sitting in Congress is just. It's so gross. It's so disgusting. I think it was mtg. She tweeted that she wanted Chauvin pardoned and then she said George Floyd died of a drug overdose. No, he didn't. He absolutely did not. She's lying, which is what she always does. She's making shit up. And, yeah, so fuck that guy.

[Dori Shafrier]

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[H]

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