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- [00:00]
Andy Levy
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Andy Levy
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- [02:20]
Danielle Moody
Maybe you wouldn't have to worry about your back so much if you weren't deciding to use your to shred the Constitution to threaten people's lives and put them in danger. Maybe you wouldn't have to worry about yourself so much if you were actually working on behalf of the American people and trying to, you know, expand rights and justice as opposed to taking them away. So my feeling about his fear is I don't give a fuck I'm more concerned about his court now allowing those without due process to, to be sent to third party nations, war torn nations like the South Sudan, like El Salvador, without due process. And he gave Donald Trump's regime the absolute green light. He also gave them the green light to begin, I don't know, creating a birth citizen caste system in the United States, which we tried to do away with. And I think, you know, as my guest later in the show will discuss, you know, thought that we'd handle that after, you know, the civil war, but evidently this court wants to bring us back to that place. So here's the thing. You don't have to worry when you actually do the right things. And maybe he should direct his concern to his party, which, you know, just radicalize Vance Boatler, who actually did carry out an assassination. You know, the Trump voter who, who just mysteriously has disappeared from mainstream corporate news. And I wonder if his complexion has anything to do with that. Cause I'm pretty sure if he were not white or not a citizen, that everyone in America would still be hearing his name more than they hear their own.
- [04:10]
Andy Levy
I do want to talk about some of this rhetoric that the Chief justice speaks of, and I want to read this quote, and I wonder if this is what he had in mind about dangerous rhetoric. The quote is, no right is safe in the new legal regime the Court creates. That's a pretty strong statement. And I feel like whoever. Oh, wait, that was Supreme Court Justice Sotomayor. And you know, she's absolutely right. And she's talking, of course, about the very, very weird birthright citizenship ruling that the Court gave that basically said relief is only given to the people in that area, not the whole country, which sets up a whole thing where you could have, I guess, birthright citizenship challenges succeed in one state and fail in another. And I thought the whole point of having a Supreme Court was to say what the law and what the Constitution.
- [05:07]
Danielle Moody
Meant for the entire country. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [05:10]
Andy Levy
But apparently I was wrong. And as you said, Danielle, you know, about the idea that you thought we had settled this birthright citizenship issue already, once again, I thought we had settled it too. And I also thought we had settled that when the Supreme Court rules, it applies to the country and not just to a smaller jurisdiction. And that is why Sotomayor is exactly correct in saying that this insane ruling is just opening up an unbelievable can of worms to things that conservatives don't want. As she said, tomorrow a different administration may try to seize firearms from law abiding citizens or prevent People of certain faiths from gathering to worship. And the Supreme Court apparently is gonna say, well, if we say, you can't do that, we mean only in that state, not in other states. Although my. I suspect, Danielle, that when the rulings are more conservative, the justices will want to apply them to the whole country.
- [06:08]
Danielle Moody
Yes, yes, of course. Because that's how it works. It's only states rights when it's a red state. Otherwise blue states don't actually have the same authority over their states. Look, you know, I will say that the Supreme Court is helping to accelerate America's decline. We already know that this country and the damage that this regime has done and this court has done will take generations to undo if, in fact, we get the opportunity to do that. But it's a good thing. Andy, I want to say this, that Democrats are focused laser sharp on what the courts are doing and what this. Oh, wait, that's right. No, they're not. They're actually spent the entire weekend on cable news tearing down Zorin Mandani and using the same Islamophobic smears that the right is known for. Now Democrats are doing it as well. So that's where we are.
- [07:11]
Andy Levy
It's unreal. We get told all the time, people on the left, the vote, blue, no matter who.
- [07:17]
Danielle Moody
Yep.
- [07:17]
Andy Levy
I mean, it is a big refrain. There are people to this day yelling at leftists because they imagine that if that. First of all, they imagine that none of them voted for Kamala Harris. And they keep yelling at them, saying, if you had voted for Kamala Harris, Trump wouldn't be president. None of which is true, because, I mean, most lefties did, whether they held their nose or not, did vote for Kamala Harris. Some didn't, don't get me wrong. But we were told that it was unconscionable for them to do that. And now we are sitting here, and not only did we have a bunch of elected officials endorse Andrew Cuomo in the primary, which he then lost and.
- [08:01]
Danielle Moody
Lost by a decently wide margin, double digits.
- [08:06]
Andy Levy
Yeah. We now have a bunch of Democratic electeds refusing to endorse Mamdani. And that includes Hakeem Jeffries, the Democratic House Minority Leader, who is a New York City congressman. Kathy Hochul, our not so esteemed governor, Chuck Schumer, has not endorsed Mamdani. And then you have, and I'm still in a little bit of shock over this, you have Democratic Senator from New York, Kirsten Gillibrand. And she went on a. I think it was a radio show. Yeah, it was the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC here in New York City. And she basically accused Mamdani of favoring global jihad. It was rhetoric that we talked about this on our last episode. It's rhetoric that we've gotten unfortunately used to from the right. But we are now hearing it from Democrats, Danielle.
- [09:05]
Danielle Moody
And I want to shout out Mehdi Hassan who has said called for her to resign over her Islamophobia and absolutely just anti Islam. Just disgusting, disgusting rhetoric. And you know, and here's the thing, people have said for too long that they don't see much daylight between Democrats and Republicans. And I have to tell you that when it comes to suckling off of the tit of the billionaire oligarchs, there is no daylight in between the two of them. And that's why they hate Zor and Mandani, because they don't actually want to be beholden to the people, to the working class. And that's why they're trying to smear and run his name into the ground. And I'll say this before we change topics, which is that I just saw some exit polling on the demographic that came out the strongest in the primary. 18 to 24 year olds.
- [10:02]
Madiba Denny
Yep, yep.
- [10:04]
Danielle Moody
Above everyone else. So what do you think establishment Democrats are doing right now? What do you think Republicans are doing right now? Radicalizing an entire generation to want and demand better than what their parents and grandparents were given.
- [10:24]
Andy Levy
And by the way, an entire generation that the Democrats are spending millions, tens of millions of dollars trying to reach. Supposed we hear every day we have to reach out to young people, particularly to young men. We're spending, we need a Joe Rogan of the left. We're spending $20 million on this project to see what young people want to hear about. Here you have a guy, Zoran Mamdani, who is telling you exactly what you want to know. You don't have to spend a dime to find it out. And also, like, I mean, it is unheard of for 18-24s to be unhappy in a primary of an election. In a primary. That's unheard of. And look, I will say straight up, I thought Cuomo was going to win because I have been spending too much time listening to my mom and her friends, the elderly voters. And I remember saying to someone before the election, I said, if young people don't turn out huge for this election, we are screwed. And it's going to be Cuomo. And I, you know, because of the past, I just assumed you can't really get 18-24s or 18-30s or whatever to turn out in an election. And boy, did they. And it's fantastic. And it is just unbelievable that there is a clear signal here what the future of the Democratic Party is. And the tone deaf response from Gillibrand, who I agree should resign. I mean, what she said was beyond the pale and she should resign. But Jeffries, Schumer, Dan Goldman, all these people, with a few exceptions, Jerry Nadler has endorsed Mamdani, Chris Van Hollen has said good things about Mandani. But boy, the rest of the Democratic leadership, y' all don't know what's coming for you. I don't think.
- [12:10]
Danielle Moody
No, you don't. While it is hard for us to keep our head on a swivel these days because it seems like the citizens of this country are just getting it from every single end of power possible. According to a Fox News poll, 59% of Americans oppose Donald Trump's big disgusting billionaire bill. 59%. That is a majority of the people do not want this bill that is cutting $930 billion from Medicaid, that is literally taking food out of the mouths of hungry children. That will close one in four nursing homes. That means a quarter of nursing homes, 25% will shut down from lack of Medicaid funding. There is so much in here that is so destructive and it ends with being the biggest theft of the poor and middle class workers to benefit the greediest, disgusting class of people that we have ever seen in our lifetime. It's so disgusting that Thomas Tillis, Republican, been toeing the line for Donald Trump, has announced that he is not seeking reelection because he is voting against this bill and took to the floor to talk about just how absolutely horrible, horrible it is and is going to be for his constituents. I don't even know. And again, we're telling you the details of what is in there because as of this recording, it is moving its way aggressively through the Senate. I don't know, Andy, like this. I am and have been waiting for and calling on there to be a tipping point moment for the American people. I think that this bill may be it.
- [14:15]
Andy Levy
Man, I hope so. Ron Wyden, senator from Oregon, who's been one of the few good Democrats pretty much across the board since this election. He put out a breakdown of who wins under the Republican tax plan that's in this bill and it is a chart that shows that people with a household income over $2 million will get a $308,000 tax cut. People with a household income of $50,000 and under will get $151. If you don't think that this bill is exactly what Democrats are saying, it's tax cuts for the rich, tax cuts for the wealthy, tax cuts for the oligarchs, for the people who need them the least, who don't need them at all, and whose rates should actually be going up. But, you know, that's a little too much to ask for. But as you said, we're talking about almost a hundred, almost a trillion dollars cut out of Medicaid. We have people who are. People are. I don't think it's hyperbole to say people are going to die because of this bill.
- [15:28]
Danielle Moody
I really don't think 80 million. 80 million Americans are on Medicaid.
- [15:32]
Andy Levy
Yeah, yeah. And despite what some people, I guess, think, they can't really go out and get a job. The whole point of a safety net is to keep people safe. But Republicans have no interest in a safety net. They want it gone, except occasionally when they want it for their state or their district. Daniel, do you want to talk about one of your favorite senators?
- [15:58]
Danielle Moody
Let me tell you something. There are so many names that I would love to call Lisa Murkowski, but because I have class, I'm going to keep them in my head. But the fact is, Lisa Murkowski was a holdout on this bill until Republicans said, well, what do you need? And she said, I need a carve out for Alaska on SNAP and on Medicaid and not having to deal with these work requirements. And they said, okay, so the whole state of Alaska and the five people that live there get to have a carve out. But she is voting to cut Medicaid from everyone else in the country. And I believe that the parliamentarian might have thrown out that carve out if that doesn't show you that we don't have a unified country. These senators, they represent their fiefdoms, right? They don't care about the collective. They don't care about the collective damage. If they can all get their carve outs and, you know, what have you, then Murkowski will sit and clutch her fucking pearls because that's the only thing that she is good for, right? Is looking shocked. She is like just the model fucking Karen that you, if you ever needed one, a picture next to what that means, it is her. And I just say this, what I want to see. My response is that I would like New York and California to just bow out of giving to the federal government. Just stop providing federal taxes. I would like for these states that have GDPs that rival small countries or fairly medium sized countries to stop subsidizing red states and say, since you're moving forward with this, this is what we're doing. We're actually gonna keep all of our money and take care of our people.
- [17:59]
Andy Levy
I guess my question for you, Danielle, is why do you hate Alaska whaling captains? Because Senator Murkowski got them a very nice tax break where they can up their tax deduction for whale hunting related expenses from $10,000 to $50,000. That's what she wanted. That's what she wanted in return for gutting Medicaid. And no offense to Alaska whaling captains, there ain't that many of you. And you know, I'm not opposed to you getting tax breaks, but not at the expense of the 80 million people that are on Medicaid. I don't know what's more offensive that just the fact that she can be bought or she can be bought so cheap. And it's just, it's the Eric Adams principle. It's like, really, you got, you sold out for a discount on a hotel room. Not even a free hotel room.
- [19:00]
Danielle Moody
Right? Right. Like, not even a first. You, you, you sold out for business class. Not even, like, not even first class.
- [19:08]
Andy Levy
Like, make me think it was worth it. Make me think it was worth selling me out and selling out the majority of Americans because you got something. Because that at least shows you care about me. You care about me enough to ask for something. It's got to be huge if you're going to sell me out. If you're going to sell me out cheap, you don't care about me. And then I just, you know, that's not cool. Don't make me feel so small, you.
- [19:34]
Danielle Moody
People make it, make it be, oh, I don't know, palace in the sky, cutter, half a billy plane. Make it be something like that. Not a coupon to go eat at the fucking Sizzler. So, like, these are bargain basement politicians that are just, I, you know, I said this earlier today. I'm appreciating these people for revealing the fullness of who they are. So that no one can be unsure, no one can feel like they are being gaslit. Because both parties, the Republicans for their depravity, the Democrats for their meekness, weakness, I don't even know what it is. And their Islamophobia, like, everyone is revealing themselves. And so everyone should be put on notice that like when what people show you who they are, believe them. Republicans and Democrats are showing you who they are. You don't have to pretend that you don't know what's in these people's hearts and what is in their souls and what is in their minds. And because they are showing you with every vote, every move and every bit of rhetoric that is coming out of their mouths.
- [20:46]
Andy Levy
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Danielle Moody
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- [21:05]
Danielle Moody
Folks, I am very happy to welcome to as the World Churns, Madiba Denny, who is the author of the Originalism Trap, who is also the deputy editor and senior contributor at Balls and Strikes. I have been following her because I need smart lawyers to provide a rundown to the disaster that is the Supreme Court. I think that I can provide analysis, but it's like, I just don't understand Madib this session. Every time that I think that the Roberts court can't get worse, they discover a new bottom. I realize that they're like, oh no, that was a false bottom. Let's keep going. Explain to us, I mean, just, I guess from the 50,000 foot view first, your feelings on this closeout session of the Supreme Court.
- [22:02]
Madiba Denny
Unmitigated horror, deep sadness. I was, I've been really struck by how the term ended and I'm, you know, longtime court hater. It's not like, it's not, it's not like I had any illusions about, like, how, how the court behaves and who, and who they are, but the gusto with which they, they went for it and the, the lengths to which they went were really quite astounding and was very upsetting. Honestly. I was, I was reading over Justice Jackson's standalone dissent in the Birthright Citizenship case and I think she said, like, in deep disillusionment, I guess.
- [22:42]
Danielle Moody
In deep disillusionment, yeah.
- [22:45]
Madiba Denny
And I was like, I, I kind of feel like I can feel her sobbing through the page. I had, like, never read a dissent like it before. It was just very striking because that's how we are now. That's where we are now, rather. And so like, we have to perhaps, you know, respond in ways that might be like, surprising in a court opinion because it's just truly wild stuff happening out here.
- [23:09]
Danielle Moody
Obviously, I'm in politics and in media, so I was going to say, I can't imagine going into a job you hate every day, but I can not. That I hate Job. And I'm like, But I've been in politics long enough where I'm like, no, I get it. But the way that Sonia Sotomayor and Ketanji Brown Jackson, the way that these two justices have been writing their dissent to your. To your point is from, like, a deep. It's like from the pit of despair. Right. Like, to. To know that you are presiding over. Right. The undoing of America has got to be a. There's another level to that pain. It's a pain to experience it on behalf of being a citizen of this country. But to be on this court in this time has got to present in and of itself a kind of deep disillusionment, deep despair and just grief that I don't think that we recognize that these women and women of color. Right. Are carrying. Yeah.
- [24:16]
Madiba Denny
That's part of why I describe my feeling as unmitigated horror. Because I'm just, like, thinking about where the Roberts Court is now in relation to where it has been and in relation to where other courts have been. I've been thinking about some other, you know, historically, some of the worst decisions the court has ever made in its existence. And I'm like, you know, even those decisions, as awful as they were, they weren't made with the benefit of, like, 160 years of precedent telling you that this is not what we do. Like, they didn't have that sort of, like, foundation of the Reconstruction Amendments enacted in the wake of the Civil War, to say, we are going to fight for a multiracial, egalitarian democracy now. We are now going to fight for an inclusive society. We are now going to protect people's rights. We got that foundation, and people have been trying to build on it, and now the Roberts Court is just aggressively bulldozing all of that. And so I feel like when I read Justice Jackson's dissents and I read Sotomayor's as well, what I see a. Like, I see women of color who came up hoping that they would have a chance to make these promises real. Hoping that they could actually, you know, make.
- [25:28]
Maris Kreisman
Yeah.
- [25:28]
Madiba Denny
Like, make the Constitution live up to what it says.
- [25:30]
Danielle Moody
Right.
- [25:31]
Madiba Denny
And they worked really hard, twice as hard, to get to where they are. And now they're here, and they're here with these guys who are going out of their way to roll back everything that they might have thought was secure. Not even. Not even things that, like, about fighting further, but things they thought they already had are now realizing are slipping away from them, and then they're just sort of like, what are we doing here? That's the sort of feeling I have when I read, when I read their dissents, is this sort of. This sort of despair, as you said. And just like, we know better. I know you know better, but you are choosing to inflict harm on me, on people like me, on people across the country, regardless. And that's hard. I'm sure that's. I'm sure that's hard to do, you know, next to the people doing the harming every day as well.
- [26:21]
Danielle Moody
Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah, it's just. It's a different type of pain. I want to go through a couple of the decisions that, that came out and just for you to again provide your. Your brilliant lens on it for us, which is. Let's start with Planned Parenthood. Right? Planned Parenthood, we know, has been a crux for the Republican Party forever, Right. That is their boogeyman, right? Planned Parenthood, we want to defund it. We want to get rid of it. And now they have found the right Supreme Court at the right time to say that poor women who receive Medicaid can now not use or states can choose to deny them from using Medicaid for Planned Parenthood. Planned Parenthood is an abortion provider, but it is a women's health clinic providing cancer screening, screening, OB, GYN care, et cetera. Right. The full breadth. 80 million Americans are on Medicaid. And I mean, in this big disgusting bill that has come out, $930 billion will be cut from it. Talk to us about this decision that now, apparently, again, states rights only works when it's states rights for red states.
- [27:46]
Madiba Denny
Yeah, yeah, it works. It cuts in one direction only.
- [27:50]
Danielle Moody
So talk to us about. Because to me, this is going to hurt rural women and white women more so than others. And I don't get it.
- [28:05]
Madiba Denny
Yeah. I mean, sometimes the, the goals, conflicting goals of, you know, like white supremacy and patriarchy, sometimes they bump into each other in weird ways against, like, what you might think of as self interests because they also have these other interests. So, yeah. Even though it's gonna hurt what you would think of as their own people, they don't. They don't actually really care. They're they're just happy to go for it anyway. And I, I appreciate you pointing out the breadth of services that Planned Parenthood provides because. Yeah, the order at issue that South Carolina had made, that the court just said was, okay, it wasn't saying no money for abortion. They already do that. It was saying no money at anywhere that also does abortions so just no matter what services you needed, no matter like what other services they were providing, they just said forget yalls healthcare, just forget about it. Also, again to be clear, abortion is healthcare. But I just think that's this sort of like even more, you know, taking that, taking that extra, that extra step. And in a way that if you read the actual law doesn't make a lick of sense. They just are coming up with nonsense that's like directly at odds with the text, directly at odds with the clear intentions of Congress just in, in pursuit of the pet interests, the go goals of the Republican Party.
- [29:34]
Maris Kreisman
That's it.
- [29:35]
Madiba Denny
That's the guiding principle. None of the standard, you know, legal interpretation principles that you might think exist. It's just what, what Republicans want.
- [29:45]
Danielle Moody
So now let's go to that, from that to birthright citizenship. Because my family came to the United States in 1970 from Jamaica. I am a child of immigrants and according to what the Supreme Court has just done, had that happened in the 1970, I wouldn't be a citizen of these United States.
- [30:08]
Andy Levy
Yeah.
- [30:08]
Danielle Moody
So talk to us about the weight of this decision and what you believe it could be setting up for the future. Because that was very clear in the dissent that was written as well.
- [30:20]
Madiba Denny
And this is coming back to the unmitigated horror again because we have the Reconstruction amendments, we established 158 odd years ago that citizenship is not based on parentage, it's not based on bloodline. You don't need to have like your parent was a citizen or a legal resident in order for you to be. That's just not how that works. And we established that to make sure that there was no longer, in the wake of the Civil War, there was no longer an inheritable caste system in this country. And so by narrowing the injunctions that the lower courts had, preventing the order from going into the birthright citizenship order from going into effect, by narrowing that, that's bringing us back to this Civil War era frame where people's rights as citizens depend on their parents and just the lying, the state border on which they happen to be when they're born. And that's absurd and scary and gr that people's rights could be determined in that way. Their right to participate in civic society, their right to access for some forms of health care, you know, like, like Medicaid and things, their right for like scholarships, like for an education, their right to live in their communities with their families. Newborns could be deported, like separated from their parents. Once this, once this order goes into effect, and it chilling. And this is, again, this is something that we would have liked to think that we were past. We would have liked to think that this was resolved and the court is sort of pretending, oh, we didn't, we're not undermining the 14th Amendment. We're not undermining the reconstruction. We didn't actually. Because we didn't actually talk about that. This is just about the breadth of injunctions. It's just about whether federal courts can issue a universal injunction or not. And that is just such a way to hide the ball. Just like trying to.
- [32:30]
Danielle Moody
It's cowardice in, in all honesty, like, if it's, it's. If you're going to do the thing, you're like, just a minute then, then just stand 10 toes down on it, right? Like if you're going to support a white nationalist agenda, then have the courage to do so without creating the ultimate form of gaslighting, which is like, oh, we're talking about one thing over here and not this entire net. It's just a lie. Right? And maybe that helps them sleep at night. But I'm like, but everybody else can see through this. Like cellophane.
- [33:03]
Madiba Denny
Well, I, I agree and I disagree. I agree, like, yes, we can see through it. I disagree on the. Everybody. Because I think that's why you were, yeah, I think that's why you were saying like, we need, we need folks to, who can see, see through the bullshit to say so. Because I think that some people might be inclined to be like, you know, I'm not a lawyer, I must be missing something.
- [33:26]
Danielle Moody
Right, right.
- [33:27]
Madiba Denny
I must, yeah, like, I must, I must not understand. Like clearly they have to get it. And sometimes, I mean, law professors can be even more guilty of this sometimes I think, and just sort of getting so into the weeds that, you know, that you like, you know, losing the forest for the trees. A friend of mine once said something that like her grandparents told her about not to be so open minded that your brain falls out. And I feel like sometimes, I feel like sometimes law professors are at risk of that. So I think, so I think that on these, on these two extremes, like people who either don't know much about the law or people who know too much about the law can sort of, sometimes it's like a horseshoe effect come back around to the same place of being like, oh, I guess, I guess this is fine, you know, seems bad, but this is a legitimate legal course of action. And I feel like you just take a step back and be like, no, it's not Right.
- [34:27]
Danielle Moody
You know, and, and here's my fear. And, and, and sadly, I haven't been proven wrong a lot as it pertains to this, this white nationalist agenda. But Stephen Miller has talked about it outright, Steve Bannon has talked about it outright, which is denaturalization.
- [34:44]
Andy Levy
Right?
- [34:44]
Madiba Denny
Oh, yeah, I'm shook about that. I'm also a naturalized citizen.
- [34:47]
Danielle Moody
Yeah. So I'm like, I'm pretty sure that that is next up on their agenda. And it. There will be no quote, unquote, grandfathering into that, that people that have been here who have been naturalized for 30, 40 years, what do you see as the probability of that? And is there some. Is there a case right now that is kind of making its way up in this kind of way? Because it's clearly not something that could be done vis a vis executive order. It would need to be done through the court and.
- [35:23]
Madiba Denny
Yeah, like, through, like, immigration proceedings. So in terms of, like, a current court case, there's not one I'm familiar with, but I have seen and I've been deeply troubled to see, but Republican Congress members calling for denaturalization, like, calling for denaturalization of the, like Solan Mandani, who just, yeah, just won the Democratic primary in New York, saying to denaturalize him. And I've seen, I've seen, you know, Congress members say things like that. If they don't like someone who chose to be an American, then denaturalize them. And I, while I recognize and firmly support that we should care about people because they're people, we don't only need to care about them because of how it could affect us, I also think sometimes people don't clock how it could affect them. They, like, don't see how all of these things are related. I think when Mahmoud Khalil was abducted by ICE as a lawful permanent resident, I was like, it's barely a hop, skip and a jump from lawful permanent resident to naturalized citizens, and it's barely a husk of the jump from naturalized citizen to someone who was born here as a citizen. So these things are clearly all interconnected risks. And with some of these immigration removal cases, especially since they've been trying to do things so fast and not going through any of the proper procedural steps that are supposed to safeguard against stuff like this. It's not even that you need to be a migrant yourself or, like, undocumented. You just need to be mistaken for one, like an ICE agent. This needs to see your complexion and say, oh, I don't think this person's a citizen, even if you are, and you can get snatched and you can get deposited on a plane and shipped off to a war zone. Like, I wish I were exaggerating, but that's literally what one of the Supreme Court cases is about, whether people can be sent off to third countries where they have never been and where they could experience grave danger. And the court let that happen. It was blocked in the lower court. And the court lifted that. Yeah, that. That injunction. And the additional sort of insult to injury is that they didn't even bother to say why. They didn't even care to explain themselves. And I'm like, perhaps because, you know, it's. It's inexplicable, it's unjustifiable. So maybe that's why they didn't even bother. Now, I could also say that that might have backfired just a little bit insofar as when it kicked back to the lower court, the lower court judge said, well, they lifted my injunction, but the government had actually already violated it. And I had a separate order telling them to remedy that violation. And they didn't lift that, and they didn't say anything about that, so why shouldn't I go ahead and enforce this? And I think that was 100% the right call. I think that was absolutely right to. I was like, you know, if the court is going to. The court here being the Supreme Court, if the Supreme Court is going to be ruling with abandon, making these unexplained, unjustifiable, unconstitutional decisions, then why shouldn't lower court judges feel free to read the court's opinions, or lack thereof, as creatively as the Supreme Court reads the Constitution. Why not? I feel like. And that's probably striking, some folks are probably going to be concerned to hear like a lawyer say that and say, you know, it's. Isn't that just violating the rule of law? But we're.
- [39:04]
Danielle Moody
We're past that. Yeah, I was going to say, but. But where. Where is the rule of law currently, Madiba? We will have to leave it there today, but my goodness, I really hope that we can have you back again on as the World Churns. And please tell people how they can follow you, how they can keep up to date with balls and strikes and all of your good work.
- [39:24]
Madiba Denny
Yeah, I write all the time@ballsandstrikes.org regular articles there. If you are interested in several articles worth of words, then I also have my book, the Originalism Trap. And I'm also too online, so you can find me on bluesky.
- [39:42]
Danielle Moody
I'm also too online. I appreciate you. Thank you so much for making the time to join us.
- [39:47]
Madiba Denny
Thank you for having me.
- [39:50]
Maris Kreisman
Ever get the feeling you're being watched online?
- [39:53]
Andy Levy
It's data brokers. They collect your personal info, your browsing.
- [39:57]
Maris Kreisman
Habits, where you live and who you're.
- [39:58]
Andy Levy
Related to, and then sell it to the highest bidder.
- [40:01]
Madiba Denny
Aura helps stop that.
- [40:03]
Andy Levy
Aura automatically removes your personal info from data broker sites and keeps it off. It also monitors the dark web, protects your devices, alerts you to real time threats and more.
- [40:13]
Maris Kreisman
Start your free trial@aura.com listen that's a u r a dot com listen for your free trial.
- [40:25]
Andy Levy
Maris Kreisman is an essayist and critic with a bi weekly column at LitHub whose work has also appeared in the New York Times, New York Magazine, the Wall Street Journal, the LA Times, Times, Vanity Fair, and so many other places that I will not have time to ask her a question if I keep reading them. She's also the author of the terrific new book I Want to Burn this Place Down, a collection of essays about how and why she went from being a quote unquote good Democrat who believed that America's democratic institutions would give us all good lives to someone who came to understand that these institutions were, as she writes, at best, deeply flawed, at worst, irreparably broken. She joins me now. Maris, thanks so much for being here.
- [41:07]
Maris Kreisman
Thanks for having me, Andy.
- [41:09]
Andy Levy
So start with the title of the book. Explain where you took the title from. The title again is I Want to Burn this Place Down.
- [41:15]
Maris Kreisman
It's a quote from Mad Men. In fact, it's in the final season. Joan and Peggy just get out of a meeting where they've been not only harassed but they've been belittled. And, and it's so clear that they know so much more than the people in charge. And Joan has always played along with everything and been like, I'm playing the game and I'm winning. And it's the first real unguarded moment where you get to see Joan just say, I want to burn this place down. I don't know, look around the world right now. That's kind of how I'm feeling.
- [41:50]
Andy Levy
Yeah, I would venture to say you're not alone in that. So you talk about in the book how you've moved further and further left, left with sort of with every year. And I'll quote you here and you say growing more progressive as I, a straight cisgender white woman from a middle class background, learned all the ways the world is rigged in my favor. Even as I myself have been severely let down by the status quo. I didn't consider how enormously privileged it was to believe that such systems could work in the first place. I'm highlighting this well, because a. It's a main theme of the book, but also, to some extent, it sort of mirrors my journey to the left. And there's a part of this that I think is sort of important to note, which is in the book, you don't in any way portray yourself as some sort of heroic figure for coming to these realizations.
- [42:39]
Maris Kreisman
No, it's personal essays, because I wanted it to be about my own experiences. I don't claim to be a hero. I don't claim to be an expert. It's just I'm a regular American, and this is how I'm feeling. And maybe you are, too.
- [42:54]
Andy Levy
Yeah. And I really appreciated that. There's an early essay in the book called neoliberalism, and me and Bill Clinton looms large over it. Why is that?
- [43:03]
Maris Kreisman
Okay, So I was 14 in 1992, and my parents took me to his. The night before his election. A rally at the Meadowlands in New Jersey. And it was like a rock concert. It was the biggest thing I had ever seen. There were celebrities there. The entire place was so enthusiastic, screaming like he was the Beatles. And everyone was so optimistic for all of the changes that he would make.
- [43:35]
Andy Levy
Yeah. And sort of, as, you know, as the chapter goes on and as the book goes on, you talk about what you eventually came to learn about Bill Clinton, the problematic stuff aside, even for a minute. But you say, what does it mean to be a good Democrat when Democratic policies are growing increasingly Republican? And you are basically saying a lot of that traces back to Bill Clinton and Clintonomics. Really?
- [44:05]
Maris Kreisman
Yeah. Yeah. And I think he had this line about how you could do well by doing good, as if making money was ever going to be a purely altruistic thing. And I think he just. He had so much faith in our corporate institutions that even as a young girl I kind of already knew were not maybe the most trustworthy.
- [44:29]
Andy Levy
Yeah. And it really does feel like Clintonomics, that that was sort of the beginning of maybe the whole VC private equity capture of our economy. As you talk about. As the book goes on.
- [44:42]
Maris Kreisman
Yeah. And, you know, the 2008 crisis still looms over. I mean, that was the first time I'd ever really felt, you know, I got. I lost my job. And all of these people who were involved in subprime mortgages were the people who I went to college with, who were really, really successful and they got these big important jobs at banks and that's where they led us.
- [45:08]
Andy Levy
Yeah, for sure. And again, I think you do a good job of sort of. I don't want to make the book sound like it's some academic tome, but you do a good job sort of tracing how Bill Clinton and all the things the Democratic party stood for under him kind of helped lead us in that direction. There's something that I've been saying for years now that basically, if you don't end up radicalized by interactions with the American healthcare system, I don't understand you at all. And you have certainly had more than your share of those interactions, haven't you?
- [45:40]
Maris Kreisman
Yeah, I. I've had type 1 diabetes since I was 9 years old. And when I was 9 years old, it was all about keeping myself well enough until the cure came. Because when the cure came, everything would go back to normal and everything would be fine. It's been a process for me to both understand that a cure is probably not a thing and that in the meantime, people are dying because they don't have access to. To enough money to afford insulin and other blood sugar monitoring devices. And that is just incredibly radicalizing. I'm pissed.
- [46:18]
Andy Levy
Yeah, for sure. And I mean, look, I'm not. I don't want to make this about me, but I've been dealing with the healthcare system for like the last four or five years in a big way. And it just. Every interaction drives me, I think, further and further to the left and it's just, it's unreal that what we are expected to put up with.
- [46:38]
Maris Kreisman
Yeah. And I think that was part of growing up was the idea that I was going to get a corporate job because I needed a job that would pay for my health insurance. And that was the thing that you did. And that's how the world worked. And America had private health insurance and we were doing just fine. And so it was. It's been kind of incredible to come to see that there are so many different things that are broken about it.
- [47:08]
Andy Levy
Yeah, I mean, look, if you have to marry a comedian to get healthcare, something is deeply wrong with the situation.
- [47:15]
Maris Kreisman
Exactly. I will say at the time he was working in tv, and at the time we thought TV would be the thing that would survive when books and media gotta laugh.
- [47:28]
Andy Levy
There's something else that you wrote about healthcare that maybe isn't necessarily political, but I thought it was really interesting. You write of when you were first diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. You were saying back then there was no Way for us to know what I know now that whenever a doctor makes a diagnosis of a chronic illness, the patient should automatically and immediately get a referral to a psychiatrist. Talk about why this is so important.
- [47:50]
Maris Kreisman
I think that I was brought up with the idea that I was a fighter. And you're supposed to fight your illness and you're supposed to not let it get the best of you and always have a smile on your face and just admitting that if you have a disease that you have to think about every second of every day, you will be impacted, not just physically. Knowing diabetics now, later in life, like we are all taking a little Prozac or a little something. I think we're better for it.
- [48:30]
Andy Levy
Well, you write about one incident in your life that I forget what the phrase is, but you basically almost died in your sleep.
- [48:37]
Maris Kreisman
Dead in bed.
- [48:38]
Andy Levy
Dead in bed. Yeah. Talk about that, because that is frightening.
- [48:42]
Maris Kreisman
It's so frightening. And I didn't know to be afraid of it as a kid. My dad knew. My dad knew to be afraid of it to the point where when I lived alone, he wanted to hear from me every single morning to make sure I woke up. But what happens is, with diabetes, the quickest way people die is when your blood sugar gets very, very low in the middle of the night and you don't wake up. And I am so lucky that I survived. But I've had a few close calls. You know, I think when we think about diabetes, it's like a long term kind of problem. It's like, you know, you'll have to deal with the consequences later, which you will. But also, there's this immediate danger.
- [49:30]
Andy Levy
Yeah. I mean, it was just harrowing to read about that, and it was something that I was not aware of. I want to shift gears a little bit. There's a chapter in the book called Copaganda and Me. I think it was excerpted by Was the Rolling Stone.
- [49:43]
Maris Kreisman
Yes.
- [49:43]
Andy Levy
In case we have viewers or listeners who don't know, explain what Copaganda is.
- [49:47]
Maris Kreisman
Copaganda is media of any sort. Whether it's like the TV shows you watch at night or if it's the evening news that make cops seem heroic, that make cops seem like they are the good guys. Capital G's.
- [50:03]
Andy Levy
Right. And talk about how Copaganda affected you. Someone who grew up in the suburbs when you decided to move to New York City in. I think it was 2000.
- [50:13]
Maris Kreisman
2000, yeah. It's so funny, Andy, because we're having this conversation now about people saying that the subway is unsafe. In New York City and that it's a dangerous place to be. And that's what I was told in the year 2000 when I moved to New York. And I was taught to have my guard up, and I was taught to carry my keys in a certain way and, you know, perhaps invest in pepper spray. And what I learned just through living here for so many years and experiencing the world and talking to people is that it is not nearly as scary as the news would have you believe. Even though we know that propaganda is. Is maybe not a great thing, I think still portraying cities as evil, dangerous places is still a huge, huge problem.
- [51:06]
Andy Levy
Yeah, for sure. And it's so interesting the way you wrote about this, because I always think of propaganda, not from that perspective, but just from what you said at the start, where it just. It basically lionizes law enforcement and makes law enforcement seem as the only thing standing between us and anarchic destruction. And I never really thought too deeply about it, that in order to do that, you have to oversell how bad things are, because otherwise, if things aren't that bad, then the cops aren't as heroic or necessary as they would be. But it's such an excellent point that if you subsist on a diet of Law and Order, SVU and Blue Bloods and whatever else CBS happens to be showing on a given night, you really do think that New York City and pretty much any big city in America is just an absolute hellhole. And you hear this in the way a lot of conservatives describe it, right?
- [52:15]
Maris Kreisman
Yes. Yes. That's what you're seeing a lot of. And when I talk to people from New Jersey, I always get, is it as bad as they say? And, you know, like, no, no. These are people who are. Get a lot out of your fear.
- [52:31]
Andy Levy
Yeah, absolutely. I was a little shocked to read towards the end of this piece that your twin brothers are both police.
- [52:39]
Madiba Denny
Yes.
- [52:40]
Maris Kreisman
So we watched all of the cop programs together, and then I moved away from it and they moved toward it, and that's. That's been difficult. It makes it a little bit easier that with my family in particular, I'm able to talk about what the NYPD does because there are enough examples of corruption and violence from the cops here that my experience can stand in for what. What I imagine is. Is a greater scheme.
- [53:13]
Andy Levy
Yeah. So it's Thanksgiving Passover. Things like that get a little, you know, gotta watch yourself.
- [53:20]
Maris Kreisman
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, we know that. We know that.
- [53:25]
Andy Levy
I want to ask you, because you're very honest about this. In the book, you Talk in the book about how book publishers are complicit in the spread of disinformation and explain what you mean, because, like, for starters, I don't think a lot of people understand how fact checking works in the publishing world.
- [53:42]
Maris Kreisman
So fact checking in the publishing world is optional. The publisher doesn't pay for it. So if the author wants their work fact checked, they must pay for it themselves. And you can imagine that the people who want their work fact checked are going to be the ones who aren't doing anything too shady to begin with. And so for so long, I thought that the word nonfiction meant true. It's really just a marketing term. Nonfiction is something that the author avers to be true, and that allows a lot of people to say a lot of different things. There's a legal read, and that's supposed to be the thing that covers the publisher's asses. It's incredible what gets through.
- [54:30]
Andy Levy
I'm friends with enough authors. I remember the first time I learned that publishing houses didn't pay for fact checking. I was stunned. But I've known this for a while now, and yet every time I read it and see it mentioned again, I'm like, stunned anew that this is how things work. And so basically, like, when Glenn Beck or whoever writes a book, the publisher simply isn't concerned with whether he's spouting lies as long as they are not legally liable, correct?
- [55:02]
Maris Kreisman
Yeah, correct. They say that the author is the quote unquote expert, and so they are covered as long as they believe that the author is acting in good faith.
- [55:14]
Andy Levy
Right. It's amazing.
- [55:16]
Maris Kreisman
It's amazing.
- [55:18]
Andy Levy
So 2016 comes and goes. Trump is elected. A little later, Covid hits. Roe v. Wade is overturned. More and more libraries are banning books, but there's also things like the Black Lives Matter movement, and corporations, which included publishing houses, give the appearance of solidarity. They say the right things about equality. They talk about commitment to diversity initiatives, things like that. We're kind of finding out now if we didn't already suspect it, just how shallow those supposed commitments were, aren't we?
- [55:49]
Maris Kreisman
Yeah.
- [55:50]
Danielle Moody
Yeah.
- [55:51]
Maris Kreisman
You would think that book publishing is particularly the kind of industry where people working inside would be a little more devoted to trying to do a good job. And I do think that the individual people who work at publishers on the ground probably are. I'm not sure that their corporate overlords see it exactly the same way. And that's why I'm always concerned when I hear people say that reading makes you more empathetic, because there have been so many book lists about understanding a different experience than you. And you can't just read it and cross it off your list and say, oh, now I understand and I am a better person for it.
- [56:39]
Andy Levy
Right. So many of these initiatives and all these things that, that these companies said that they were going to do. And then you just sit there and you watch the minute Trump is reelected. You watch how quickly they're like, oh, well, okay, I guess we're done with that. And it's just. How do you handle that?
- [56:57]
Maris Kreisman
I personally handle it by talking about books I love all the time. And I try.
- [57:03]
Andy Levy
You can do that.
- [57:05]
Maris Kreisman
Yes. And I do. I try to read a very diverse group of books, which means not just racially, but by topic and by fiction and nonfiction and age and gender. And recommending books is how I make peace with the world for the most part.
- [57:24]
Andy Levy
Well, we all appreciate that you do it. I know I have certainly read several books because you pointed them out either at Lithub or even on Bluesky or whatever. So I'm glad you're out there doing that. And the book is I Want to Burn this Place Down. It's out today. It's a fantastic collection of essays and Maneris, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me about it for a little bit.
- [57:47]
Maris Kreisman
Andy, thanks for the great questions.
- [57:49]
Danielle Moody
Well, Andy, we are stepping into what will be, you know, Fourth of July week. America's independence. All that jazz about, you know, rights and freedom and stuff. Clearly that's all just in name only, in barbecue only. So how are you? You kicking off this week with your. Fuck that guy.
- [58:11]
Andy Levy
I'm going to go down to and pay a visit to the state of Alabama. Oh, and it's someone we have absolutely had previously in our hall of Not Heroes. What do we call them? Hall of Assholes?
- [58:27]
Danielle Moody
Hall of Villains.
- [58:29]
Andy Levy
Hall of Villains. It's a current US Senator from Alabama, Tommy Tuberville, who I believe is running for the governorship of Alabama. Sorry, at this point. And he went on a show with serial plagiarist Benny Johnson, the Benny show. And he was asked about whether or not federal funding should be cut off to so called sanctuary cities. And he said, you can stop the federal funding. President Trump could do anything he wants when it comes to the federal again, these inner city rats, they live off the federal government. And that's one reason we're $37 trillion in debt. And it's time we find these rats and we send them back home. Do we want to talk about how much federal Funding the people of Alabama get because it's one of the poorest states in the union. Do we want to talk about how much of, I don't know, Danielle, your tax dollars go to Alabama. But instead what we're talking about here is, let's be honest, these sanctuary cities are in the states that drive America's economy.
- [59:39]
Danielle Moody
Correct.
- [59:40]
Andy Levy
And they are the states that contribute the most to the tax base of this country. And it is those states where the residents money is getting funneled to the residents in states like, I don't know, Tommy Tuberville's Alabama. So for him to sit there and be talking about inner city rats, which, I mean, let's not even talk about the language there, but talking about inner city rats who live off the federal government. Your whole fucking state lives off the federal government. And by the federal government, what we mean is the taxes paid by states like New York and California, and I'll give you Texas, but mostly by blue states. And so I would suggest Tommy Tuberville. You know what, I was going to suggest something, but he's too stupid. There's no point. He's one of the stupidest people in Congress, in the Senate. We've been saying this for a long time. And it's not like he's going to, you can say, like, well, as he gets older, he'll get smarter. He's a full grown man. He's not getting any smarter.
- [60:45]
Danielle Moody
I was like, no, he's not aging into this.
- [60:48]
Andy Levy
No, no, he's reached. He's peaked. He's peaked.
- [60:51]
Danielle Moody
And dare I say, he may be sunsetting.
- [60:54]
Andy Levy
He may be sunsetting. But I suspect he's been like this, this whole. I think this is peak. Tommy Tuberville. I think this is peak performance from him. So, yeah, I'm not even going to bother to give him a suggestion. I'm just going to say, fuck that guy.
- [61:06]
Danielle Moody
You know, I'm telling you, this country is careening towards like an entire breakup. And I just, I want to live long enough to see where the rural red states end up. I really do. Because I'm thinking that blue states may be fine and that states like Alabama may begin to look like an underdeveloped nation. Okay.
- [61:32]
Andy Levy
And I just want to say before we, before we shift over to you that I don't have a problem with Alabama getting federal funds. There are people in Alabama, not everybody in Alabama is Tommy Tuberville. There are a lot of people, particularly in cities like Alabama, who basically, they make it impossible for them to vote. And then, and I'M talking here about, about poorer people, people of color. And I don't want to see them hurt because Tommy Tuberville's an asshole. They don't like him. They don't like him at all. But if he keeps fucking around like this, at some point, you're right, the blue states are going to be like.
- [62:05]
Danielle Moody
We'Re done, we're out.
- [62:06]
Andy Levy
Stop taking our money. Stop taking our money.
- [62:08]
Danielle Moody
Right. Because what are we getting for it? Those guys.
- [62:12]
Andy Levy
Yep. All right, Danielle, sorry for rambling on like that. End this show with your. Fuck that guy.
- [62:19]
Danielle Moody
You know, I, I wish that this person who I believe is making their first appearance on as the World Churns and I believe, I believe their first fuck that guy. And I wish that I could say that what was articulated to land this particular Republican representative here is not something that is party wide, but it, it is so. Representative Rich McCormick, a Republican from Georgia, according to NBC News, defended the impacts of the White House's federal aid freeze on school lunches. You know, literally taking food out of the mouths of children by suggesting that some should be working instead of receiving a free lunch. So no longer is the job of children to get an education, right? Their job as 12 year olds, as 10 year olds, as 9 year olds that need a free lunch so that they can actually have the energy and the wherewithal to learn, we should get those children jobs at McDonald's. That was an actual statement out of a representative's mouth. These people, and these are the same people that have rolled back child labor laws in red states because that's what they think of children have had the audacity to say that they care about children. No, you care about unborn fetuses. You actually don't care. I have seen what it is like when you're in a school where there isn't free lunch, right? Which for some kids is one of the only meals that they get. Which is why schools continue to do it even over the summer when there is summer break, because they know that some children and families rely on those schools to be able to provide where they can't. And to say something like, I mean, it's just the, you know, I, I need a new word. I need new words for cruel. I need new words for depraved. I need new words for odious and disgusting. But that is what Rick McCormick is and that is why he is today's fuck that guy.
- [64:33]
Andy Levy
For me, I'm just curious because a lot of the kids who get these free lunches, their age is in the single digits. Hmm.
- [64:41]
Danielle Moody
Yeah, they should, they should stop. Freeloaders, Andy.
- [64:45]
Andy Levy
Right, right. Freeloading seven and eight year olds.
- [64:48]
Danielle Moody
Yes.
- [64:50]
Andy Levy
Need to put down the blocks.
- [64:52]
Danielle Moody
Correct.
- [64:52]
Andy Levy
With the letters on them and pick up the hot skillets.
- [64:57]
Danielle Moody
Fryers.
- [64:58]
Andy Levy
Exactly. Yeah, yeah. This is insane. Like it's just flat out insane because he's talking as if first of all, that everyone that gets a free lunch at school is like 16 or older. They're just not. Well, I guess maybe as you said, they want to get rid of the child labor law. So who the fuck knows how young he may really think that that 8 year old, 7, maybe 5 year olds in kindergarten should be, you know, I'm.
- [65:23]
Danielle Moody
Sure they should be doing something. They should be doing something.
- [65:26]
Andy Levy
Something. Yeah. This guy just sucks. And I love his. He says, before I was even 13 years old, I was picking berries in the field before child labor laws that precluded that. So obviously, first of all, he wants to get rid of the child labor laws and bring that back. And second of all, I feel like, you know, maybe if you had spent more time, I don't know, reading a book or learning instead of picking the berries in the field, maybe you wouldn't have turned out the way you did. And again, nothing wrong with picking berries in a field, but maybe take some time out and study when you're 12 years old and learn. Shit, I just can't with these people. Fuck that guy.
- [66:03]
Danielle Moody
Cruelty is the point.
- [66:08]
Madiba Denny
So you've got a business, but what about a brand? The difference?
- [66:12]
Maris Kreisman
More of you. WIX gives you the freedom to create your website, own your brand and do.
- [66:17]
Madiba Denny
It on your own, exactly how you envisioned it. Experience limitless customization.
- [66:22]
Maris Kreisman
Boost your creativity and efficiency with AI tools for every part of your business journey. Scale up with built in SEO, e comm and scheduling features. Put more of you in your business. Go to wix.com and do it all yourself.
- [66:38]
Andy Levy
Trip planner by Expedia. You were made to have strong opinions about sand.
- [66:43]
Madiba Denny
We were made to help you and your friends find a place on the.
- [66:46]
Andy Levy
Beach with a pool and a marina and a waterfall and a soaking tub. Expedia made to travel.