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- [00:00]
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- [01:21]
Danielle Moody
Welcome to as the World Churns. I am one of your fabulous co hosts, Danielle Moody, alongside my fave, the one and only Andy Levy. And today we're going to dive more into our dystopia because Donald Trump keeps the headlines going and keeps our heads spinning. So where do we begin today? Well, with Trump announcing another travel ban. That's right. He does not want black and brown people in this country. That is evidence. We don't have to pontificate on whether or not Trump is racist on what this travel ban means. It means that you don't want certain kinds of people here. And I want to run down who is on the list. There is something so fucking ominous about the font that they use over at the White House.gov it is very large and just very, like, chaotic to me as fonts go. But the title of this ban is restricting the entry of foreign nationals to protect the United States from foreign terrorists and other national security and public safety threats. Do you think that AI wrote that, Andy? I think that they. I think they did. Um, and then I think that they just did like a copy and paste. Nonetheless, there are a list of countries. So we have Afghanistan, Burma, Chad, the Republic of Congo, which is interesting because Donald Trump had no idea where the fucking Congo was the other day when he was holding up photos from what he thought was South Africa to the South African president when he was lying about the genocide of white farmers, when holding up pictures of the Congo. And then he says, what's the Congo? Apparently they figured it out. Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Haiti, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, Burundi, Cuba, Laos, Sierra Leone, Togo, Turkmenistan, Venezuela. Those are the 19 or so countries that Donald Trump and the Trump administration have banned from entering the country. Andy, what do those countries have in common, do you think?
- [03:48]
Andy Levy
I am going to take a guess and say. Well, I was going to say they all have the letter A in them, but Congo kind of screws that, so it must be the color of the skin.
- [03:59]
Danielle Moody
Oh, very good.
- [04:01]
Andy Levy
Of the people who are native to those countries. I'm glad you read that list because there was a country kind of conspicuously absent from it and that country is Egypt. Why Egypt, are you asking? Because the Trump administration is claiming that they are doing this to stop terror attacks and they tied it to what happened over the weekend in Boulder, Colorado where we had someone who attacked some Jewish people. And the guy who did this was from Egypt.
- [04:45]
Danielle Moody
Interesting.
- [04:45]
Andy Levy
So, yeah. So 19 countries are on this list supposedly to protect us from terrorists and supposedly to protect us from attacks like what happened in Boulder on Sunday. And yet the country of origin for the Boulder suspect is not on this list. So I don't know, Daniel, I'm thinking maybe the Trump administration is not being fully honest with us about this. What do you think?
- [05:13]
Danielle Moody
I think that the word that you're looking for or the phrase is fucking liars. They're fucking liars. The reality is that Donald Trump in his first term referred to many African nations as quote, unquote, shithole countries or any countries that the population was largely black people as shithole countries. We know, for instance, Haiti, which he maligned all Haitians during his campaign by saying that they were eating cats and dogs. And in instead what we learned about the Haitian population in Ohio during that time is that they were responsible for the economic revival that region by coming in and filling jobs that had long been left unfilled. And you know, because of Donald Trump's sentiments about the Haitian population in that area, they face terrorism and attacks. And he has long had issue with that country and any country that has a population of melanated people. And so for anyone to look at this and to say, well, it is about Donald Trump doesn't give a fuck about terrorism. Let's just be very clear because if he did, then MBS Mohammed bin Salaam wouldn't be one of his son in law's best friends. He wouldn't have, he wouldn't be bankrolled by Qatar, he wouldn't be bankrolled by, by the Saudis. And you notice that none of those countries are on this list. And yet if you want to Talk about a history of quote, unquote, terrorism. I mean, we can walk that walk all the way back to 2001. So the fact of the matter is, this is bullshit. It is part of their white nationalist agenda, and it should be discussed as such. It isn't just a quote, unquote, travel ban. It is a ban on black people, Muslims, and people of color entering into this country.
- [07:17]
Andy Levy
Yeah, and the other one that really leaps out at me is Afghanistan. And look, obviously that country is a mess and is not great and is being ruled by the Taliban. But let's talk about the kind of people who are, you know, maybe trying to come here to flee the Taliban. And let's talk about the fact that for a long time, those people were our allies while we were over there fighting the Taliban. And so, you know, I'll actually let Sean Vandiver, who's the president of a group called Afghan Evacuation, he said to include Afghanistan, a nation whose people stood alongside American service members for 20 years, is a moral disgrace. It spits in the face of our allies, our veterans, and every value we claim to uphold. And he's absolutely right. Again, these are people who, you know, helped us, regardless of what you think about our mission there and whether we should have been there. These are people who helped us who are, I would imagine, whose lives are in great danger now because of that. And this is us 100% turning our backs on them. If you're looking for a logical reason behind this, if you're looking for anything based on, like, statistics of regarding acts of terrorism against Americans or acts of violence against Americans, you're not going to find it. What you're going to find is, like you said, is the countries that Donald Trump doesn't like for one reason or another. You were saying before we started recording that, you know, not a surprise that he did that, that he's done this. I agree with that. But it, you know, it's still obviously absolutely heinous.
- [09:00]
Danielle Moody
It's disgusting.
- [09:02]
Andy Levy
So I want to pivot to something that happened in the last few days that really annoyed me, and that is the news that Pete Hegseth, our Secretary of Defense. I know, it doesn't make sense to me either. I. It's hard to say that without tripping over it. Has ordered that a US Navy vessel, the USNS Harvey Milk, needs to be renamed. And it's very clear why Pete Hecseth wants to rename this ship because it's. Harvey Milk was gay and was a fighter for. For gay rights and paid for that with his life when he was assassinated in San Francisco. And so this is bad enough because this is clearly just homophobia. But I want to read a list of other ships that were on the memorandum that PTXF wants to rename. The Thurgood Marshall, the Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the Harriet Tubman, the Dolores Huerta, the Lucy Stone, the Cesar Chavez, and the Medgar Evers. We just, in the last segment, Danielle, we played the what do these countries have in common game, and now we can play the what do these people have in common game. I mean, you want to unname a ship named after Thurgood Marshall named after Harriet Tubman. I mean, every person on this list, Medgar Evers, Cesar Chavez, Dolores Huerta, every person on this list, an absolute giant, and they are so not even trying to hide it anymore. They have pulled the wool over the eyes of enough people with their phony complaints about DEI that were really just about racism and about being. Wanting to be racist. And here we are. It's women and people of color, and that's really all they care about. They want all these things named after white men and white men only because they're white nationalists.
- [11:06]
Danielle Moody
And so everyone can stop with the mental gymnastics to try and find euphemisms and find ways to talk about what it is that the Trump regime's agenda is. It is white nationalism. It is entire erasure of queer people, people of color, black people, and any achievements that were made because of their fragility, because of their justice. They're just entirely small, stupid, grotesque people who can't feel powerful unless they wipe away the accomplishments of other people. And so I say at a time when folks are banning books and scrubbing ships names, that you need to educate yourselves about who these people are and why they matter, because that's a way to fight back against the rise of fascism and white nationalism. Fuck them. I know it's not the segment, but that is happening right now.
- [12:04]
Andy Levy
Ye.
- [12:04]
Danielle Moody
Fuck them.
- [12:05]
Andy Levy
Yeah, yeah. Some days the whole show is made out of the.
- [12:08]
Danielle Moody
Sudden it is.
- [12:09]
Andy Levy
So, Danielle, on Wednesday, a thing kicked off in Washington, D.C. called welcome Fest. And you might be saying to yourself, oh, that's, you know, it's Pride Month, and welcome. It kind of sounds, you know, like maybe this is like a. A very inclusive group that wishes to celebrate, you know, the beautiful diversity of America. Not quite, because it's another one of these garbage centrist democrat movements. It's people like Richie Torres, it's people like Ro Khanna, it's people like, you know, the Matt Iglesias and the abundance guys. And it's just they spend the whole time. Oh God, Elise Slotkin, I forgot about her. They spend the whole time not attacking Republicans, but attacking the left and the left flank of the Democratic Party. And what they do is they do this somehow in the guise of saying that they want a bigger tent and that in their minds the left is not helping with that. So to be clear, they want a bigger tent Democratic Party, that, that basically gets rid of the left side of the Democratic Party. So it sounds to me like they don't want a bigger tent, they just want their own tent. And maybe they'll share it with Republicans, but they won't share it with people to the left of them. These groups keep popping up and it's, and it's all these people who sit there and claim that the country doesn't like left wing ideas. And what we need is, you know, we need to do things like, like not basically, they want to not fight back against trans bands in sports and things like that. And it's just, it's a lot of. I assume there was a long line of buses out front for them to throw people under because the entire sort of basis of this group is throwing people under the bus. Whether it's queer folks, whether it's trans folks, whether it's just the list is kind of endless. As long as you're to the left, and again, as long as you're not sort of a white centrist Democrat. Those are the only people that they care about is the people who they believe are like themselves. And it's, it's so gross. And Danielle, I know that I don't. Did you speak at this conference? Cause I know you actually like them a lot, but so, so give me your. Let's get your perspective on this.
- [15:01]
Danielle Moody
Did I, I was a headliner. I'm so sorry, I didn't, I didn't invite you. Like, so here's the thing. There was one article that said centrists, you know, what centrists think are the problem in the Democratic Party. And I'm like, centrists are the problem of the Democratic Party. Their hurry up and wait mentality is the problem. Their embrace of incremental progress is the problem. Their desire, as you said, to throw anybody, any identity, any group under the bus on their way to like, you know, run and hug Liz Cheney is the fucking problem. Like, so my thing is that these people, because I just did a video the other day on, on the Abundance. On abundance, right? This, this book by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson and this whole new agenda that they have, which it's pretty much, if, like, greed were to cosplay as abundance, that would be what this fucking is. And the idea is that centrists, you have to remember, are backed by the same billionaire class that Republicans are backed by. And any time that there is any coalescing of identities and groups that start to recognize who the real problem in their lives are, why their lives are harder, and they point and they recognize, huh, it's the billionaire class, it's the unchecked class, the unregulated class. Then you have the centrists that come out and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, it's the. You're looking at the wrong 1%. It's the trans folks. It's the. This, like, we need to be alpha, as Slotnik has said, like, we need to cosplay as Republicans. And so for me, this group, I'm like, you need your own fucking tent because I actually don't want you in mine. It's these types of people and their thinking who are again, backed by Bloomberg, backed by Gates, backed by, like, these. It's like the other class of billionaires that are playing puppeteer, right? And so at the end of the day, who is losing are the people. And abundance mentality would be like getting all of the people in this country having, you know, universal health care, having, you know, quality education, having, you know, quality access to clean air, clean water, right? Like building innovative technologies that are able to feed people without causing pollution, et cetera, et cetera. And so it's like the things that they say, one of their main tenets is like, in this abundance agenda too, is that there's too much regulation.
- [17:49]
Essie Cupp
Who.
- [17:49]
Danielle Moody
Who the fuck does that sound like? It doesn't sound like any Democrat I know. And so I'm like, we don't need a bigger tent. You need your own. And we need a different type of party that. That is actually foreign by the people. And that is not currently the state of this Democratic Party that five months, six months into this Trump regime can't seem to find their fucking footing.
- [18:11]
Andy Levy
Yeah, it's interesting that you point out that one of the things that these centrists want is less regulation. And you said, who does that sound like? One of the people that sounds like is Elon Musk. And so I guess it's not a surprise that a bunch of these folks at this welcome festival, including two that I mentioned before, Ro Khanna from California, Richie Torres from here in New York, basically said that the Democrats should reach out to Elon Musk now that Musk has gone after the so called big beautiful bill. And Ro Khanna says, oh, we should be trying to convince him that the Democratic Party has more of the values that he agrees with really, which is that the values of replacement theory is that the values of wanting white South Africans in charge of South Africa is that the anti trans values, like, I'm confused as to which values Kana means. Richie Torres says, quote, I believe in redemption and he's telling the truth about the legislation. Liam Kerr, who founded the group, I think it's called welcome Pack, that is having hosting this welcome fest. He says, of course Democrats should welcome Musk back into the party. This is the tent that they want. This is the tent they sit here and they yell at the left and they throw immigrants under the bus and all the other people we mentioned earlier under the bus. But the people they want in their tent are the Elon Musk of the world. And if that doesn't tell you everything you need to know about them, I don't know what does.
- [19:53]
Danielle Moody
Elon Musk has something in common with Democrats. If that, if that is the case and that is their stance, then I know that the Democratic Party is no longer for me. Because I can't imagine that a man that gave to, what is it, two Nazi salutes on stage with the presidential seal in front of him has something in common with the larger Democratic Party. Miss me with that bullshit? That is disgusting. I like, I am, I am these people, right? We wonder how Trump got into office. It isn't just about the people who voted for him. It is the people who have no business being inside of the Democratic Party. This fucking establishment, status quo fucking group of people. Ugh. Okay, breathe.
- [20:46]
Andy Levy
So, yeah, to follow up on what you were saying, Danielle, I mean, Ro Khanna is just the worst. He represents Silicon Valley. So he is obviously not. Obviously, I guess he wouldn't necessarily have to be, but he's kind of a fan, it seems, of these tech bros that are destroying the country. And when I mentioned earlier that he said that the Democratic Party has more of the values that Elon Musk agrees with, the next thing he cited as one of these values is a commitment to science funding. Really? Because I'm fairly certain that with Musk running Doge and being part of this Trump administration, science funding has been gutted. It has been cut to the bone. So Ro Khanna is just. I don't know what goes through his head. I don't know how you sit there and call yourself part of the Democratic party when you are absolutely. You are a shill for big tech and just to blatantly lie and say that Elon Musk agrees with the value of committing to science funding. What are we doing here?
- [21:57]
Danielle Moody
We don't know what runs through his head, but we know what runs through his pockets.
- [22:02]
Andy Levy
Nice.
- [22:05]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [22:23]
Andy Levy
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- [22:33]
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- [23:01]
Andy Levy
Essie Cupp is a longtime CNN host and contributor, a writer whose column runs in newspapers such as the New York Daily News and the Chicago Sun Times, publisher of the substack, Pennsylvania and snitching, a Real Housewives. Super fan. Probably about 17 other things I didn't mention. Most importantly though, she's my longtime friend. Essie, thanks so much for coming on the show.
- [23:22]
Essie Cupp
It's so nice to be here and it's great to see you.
- [23:25]
Andy Levy
I know. I'm so excited about this. So let's kick things off by talking about a column you wrote a few days ago which had the headline Trump Fails to Deliver on his promises. Is this even possible? Because I have been told he always tells it like it is.
- [23:39]
Essie Cupp
Yeah, he's a truth teller.
- [23:41]
Andy Levy
Yeah.
- [23:41]
Essie Cupp
Never exaggerates. No, I mean the gist of it is like his agenda is stalling fast. And there's nothing he believes in more than his own power of persuasion. It's kind of his whole id. It's his whole personality. Right. And everything he has done is predicated on his power of persuasion, the art of the deal. He can sell anything. I think even becoming president was persuading people very successfully twice now that he could solve people's problems, even though he demonstrably does not. Now though, with the big beautiful bill coming up against some real resistance in Republican Senate, some in the House, but it ultimately passed and then on tariffs really going nowhere. No foreign leader is like afraid of him. It feels like he's actually not able to deliver on some of this. And that to your point, should not be surprising. He didn't deliver on the wall. Right. Mexico didn't pay for a wall. There are a lot of things he didn't deliver on the first time. But these are two big, big signature agenda items, policy items that he talks about a lot, real important to him and they're just kind of going nowhere. It's just interesting to see, you know, his, I don't know if his power's diminished or people just don't take him as seriously anymore. I'm not really sure. But no one seems to be moving on tariffs. And I don't know what's gonna happen with the bill, but he's getting lots of resistance.
- [25:08]
Andy Levy
Yeah. Okay, first of all, if you keep saying things like this, he's not gonna like you anymore.
- [25:12]
Essie Cupp
No, I think about that all the time.
- [25:15]
Andy Levy
He was always your biggest fan. But look, everything you said is obviously 100% correct. And you mentioned that the so called big beautiful bill passed the House, but we're now seeing like there seems to be some buyer's remorse at least from some Republicans. You've got Marjorie Taylor Greene saying she wouldn't have voted for it if she'd known everything that was in there.
- [25:40]
Essie Cupp
I mean, chefs kiss Marjorie Taylor Greene. That's perfect. Marjorie Taylor Greene.
- [25:44]
Andy Levy
I know. It just made me think of the great DeAndre Cole who always asks what's up with that? Like we've got all these Republicans who are now coming out and saying, well, I didn't know that was in the bill. If I had known that, I wouldn't have voted for it. Does that think that makes you look better?
- [26:01]
Essie Cupp
Right. You cannot write the level of stupidity here. You just can't.
- [26:07]
Andy Levy
Yeah, yeah. It's unreal. And then you mentioned the tariffs. What happened se to all those deals that the other countries are going to line up to make in order to desperate to make. You assured me, you personally in text to me assured me that this was gonna happen.
- [26:26]
Essie Cupp
Right? Yeah. I mean, he's been promising not only he would deliver on tariffs. We've seen him back away from a bunch of tariffs and he's been promising that world leaders are gonna line up. They're desperate to make deals with him. I'VE seen zero desperation. The EU has been ignoring him. The White House had to send a letter saying, hey, this deadline's coming up. Why don't you submit your best offer? Like, the biggest ruse, right, is when, like, you're, like, a homeowner and you're selling your house and you're like, I need all the good offers by 12 tomorrow. That means you have no offers. Everyone knows that means you have no offers. So, I mean, yeah, I, you know, on foreign policy, too, just to sort of like, wrap all of this up, you know, Putin doesn't care what Donald Trump thinks of, of Ukraine. Bibi Netanyahu doesn't seem to be bothered by Trump's, you know, wishing for peace in Gaza. I just don't think people are taking him seriously. And I think I wrote a column maybe for Substack a couple weeks ago, too, that, like, world leaders think he's a joke. They don't respect him. They might. They need us. And so they might deliver on some deals, they might negotiate, they might work with us. But it's, like, under duress. It's not out of respect. If he had their respect, he'd have made deals. But he doesn't. And it's not only like, they're not making the deal he wants, they're not making any deals, they're not coming to the table. They're, like, waiting this out, maybe to see if he chickens out again. I don't know.
- [28:01]
Andy Levy
Yeah, I mean, look, we've got, you know, the, the taco president, as, as he's being called that Trump always chickens out president. So, yeah, at this point, you know, in the same way that the Wall street people are no longer taking him seriously, why should the world leaders. I guess the other, the question for my, my question for the Wall street people has been, why did you take him seriously in the first place?
- [28:22]
Essie Cupp
Ever?
- [28:22]
Andy Levy
But.
- [28:23]
Essie Cupp
Right.
- [28:23]
Andy Levy
That's a whole other story. I guess.
- [28:25]
Essie Cupp
I think markets are trickier to, like, manipulate and they have a way of going. But, yeah, I mean, that's a really good point, too. And it's actually good news that Wall street is kind of ignoring him or not paying attention to the boy who cried tariffs or, you know, because we don't want that volatility. And if you've got a 401k, a retirement account, you. You don't want the volatility responding to everything that Trump says. So it's good, I think, that Wall street has decided we're just not going to pay him that much attention. But, like, that really says something.
- [28:55]
Andy Levy
Yeah, 100%. I don't know if you saw this about an hour before we started taping this on Thursday. I'm sure you know Elon Musk and Trump are now feuding. The girlies are fighting. Yeah. And so at 12:46pm Eastern time on Thursday, Musk tweeted, without me, Trump would have lost the election, Dems would control the House and the Republicans would be 5149 in the Senate. Such ingratitude.
- [29:22]
Essie Cupp
He sounds just like Trump.
- [29:24]
Andy Levy
Right.
- [29:25]
Essie Cupp
Yeah. Listen, I don't think there are any thinner skinned, butt hurt men.
- [29:31]
Andy Levy
Yeah.
- [29:32]
Essie Cupp
In positions of power than Donald Trump and Elon Musk in ways they are like very, very similar. They're man children. They have giant egos, they like to play at, at like hobbies, like politics. Right. To feel powerful and influential. But I never thought this relationship was gonna go well.
- [29:50]
Andy Levy
No, nobody did.
- [29:51]
Essie Cupp
I mean, come on.
- [29:53]
Andy Levy
Right. Yeah.
- [29:54]
Essie Cupp
You know, they were gonna get in each other's way at some point. And I don't think we knew exactly when or how, but no one is surprised. The question is, and I was, I was talking to our old friend Dave Briggs about this last night, he thinks that Trump needs Elon, which is why he's not raging at him. He needs his money, he needs his influence, he needs his power. I read it a little differently. I'm not sure Trump cares what Elon thinks of his bill. You know, I think there are two ways to read it. I'm not sure which is true. But it is interesting that Trump hasn't raged at Elon yet. He's been very soft in his criticism. Like, oh, you know, it's a shame. It's a shame. I really liked Elon. It's a shame, you know, that is so mild for Trump. What's your take? What do you think is the reason he's not come out stronger?
- [30:46]
Andy Levy
I think maybe, at least at this point. I agree with you. Trump himself doesn't need Elon's money. The Republican Party needs Elon's money.
- [30:54]
Essie Cupp
Sure. Yeah.
- [30:55]
Andy Levy
And Donald Trump doesn't give a shit about the Republican Party.
- [30:58]
Essie Cupp
Correct. Never has.
- [31:00]
Andy Levy
No. So, you know, it's not like Trump. Well, as far as we know, it's not like Trump is running for election again. I will say though, that. And the reason I brought it up as of, as of taping this, the recent tweets from Musk basically saying he got Donald Trump elected president, that may have crossed a line with Trump, with him.
- [31:23]
Essie Cupp
Yeah, we'll see.
- [31:24]
Andy Levy
And I'm very. Yeah. And that's why I say, as of now, I sort of agree with you. And I think ultimately, he doesn't really care what Elon Musk thinks of the big, beautiful bill. Yeah, but now you're getting at this fragile ego thing that you were talking about. And for Musk to say that and to accuse the President of the United States of not being gracious that he, Elon Musk, got him elected, I don't know that that doesn't feel like the kind of thing that Donald Trump I know can ignore.
- [31:59]
Essie Cupp
And you do know him. I agree. You're right. Like, Elon ratcheted up a level. He's not just criticizing a bill, now he's attacking Trump himself. Yeah, we'll have to see how this goes. But, like, how does it end? Like, what's the nuclear option for either of these two guys, do you think?
- [32:19]
Andy Levy
I don't know that there is a nuclear option for either one of them. I mean, look, regardless of what happens here, Trump is president.
- [32:27]
Essie Cupp
Right.
- [32:28]
Andy Levy
So he really, again, I don't think he has. Yeah, I don't think he has as much to lose here as Elon does. I mean, Elon is already. His companies are, like, not happy with him, you know, his boards of directors and whatever.
- [32:45]
Essie Cupp
His reputation's already torn to shreds. Like, he.
- [32:48]
Andy Levy
Well, that's the thing. But it can be worse for him.
- [32:51]
Essie Cupp
It can get worse for him. You're right. You're right.
- [32:54]
Andy Levy
So I feel like Trump could easily dismiss him. The flip side of that is, I do think, you know, Musk has installed a lot of his people in this government, so that to me is like that. That's the lever of power that he has. He's got his doge boys, you know.
- [33:12]
Essie Cupp
But Trump could make that all go away with a snap of his fingers.
- [33:15]
Andy Levy
He could. He could. Absolutely.
- [33:18]
Essie Cupp
Do you think it would ever come to pass that Elon would be so butthurt? He'd be like, you know what? I'm backing Democrats and I'm giving them all my money.
- [33:26]
Andy Levy
I don't think so. I don't think so. Earlier in this podcast, we talked about that. What was it? Welcome Fest.
- [33:36]
Essie Cupp
What's that?
- [33:37]
Andy Levy
It was a centrist little conclave that happened earlier this week in D.C. it.
- [33:42]
Essie Cupp
Was called welcome Fest.
- [33:44]
Andy Levy
Yeah, I think welcome Pack is the name of the pack. And one of the things that came out from some of the people there, and it was the usual suspect, it was Ro Khanna, it was Richie Torres saying that the Democrats should reach out to Musk and try to bring him into the fold. And I just think that's the dumbest thing in the world. And, I mean, first of all, Musk is so toxic these days, and the Democrats should not be rehabilitating him as far as I'm concerned. Like. Well, nobody should be rehabilitating.
- [34:14]
Essie Cupp
That makes me think they definitely will because they're not smart right now.
- [34:16]
Andy Levy
100. Absolutely. Couldn't agree with you more, but no.
- [34:23]
Essie Cupp
Offense, dad, it's like, I want him to get better, but they are not.
- [34:27]
Andy Levy
If there's any group that would foolishly try to rehabilitate Elon Musk, it would be the Democratic Party, the national Democratic Party. Yeah.
- [34:36]
Essie Cupp
Chuck Schumer's already on the phone with Elon.
- [34:39]
Andy Levy
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I don't know. I find this whole thing fascinating. The Musk, Trump dynamic and what's going to happen, and I can't really think of another. I was trying to think of, like, a. Something to compare it to in American politics.
- [34:57]
Essie Cupp
What, Elon and Trump or just Elon's.
- [34:59]
Andy Levy
Yeah, no, Elon and Trump and their whole dynamic. Like, I couldn't think of another president that had someone like this.
- [35:07]
Essie Cupp
He's not like a Karl Rove. That's mean to Karl Rove.
- [35:10]
Andy Levy
I think so. Well, because Karl Rove was Karl Rovant, and he. And there was never an ego issue there with him.
- [35:17]
Essie Cupp
No, Karl Rove was always in service of w. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [35:21]
Andy Levy
But. But the. To have two men with, you know, this much power who want the spotlight. Yeah. And the credit and the applause and the, you know, the batting and scraping. I couldn't think of another time, you know? Yeah. I just couldn't come up with something to compare it to.
- [35:42]
Essie Cupp
No, it's true. No, I can't. I can't. It's a very unique, I think, situation. It's a unique pairing. These two guys found each other. Yeah, right.
- [35:53]
Andy Levy
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.
- [35:56]
Essie Cupp
But listen, no one leaves Trump world looking better. You know, you.
- [36:01]
Andy Levy
Right.
- [36:02]
Essie Cupp
I mean, for sure, you might look okay to maga, but, like, ecumenically, globally, no one leaves looking better. Everyone comes out worse with a worse reputation. Maybe even they go to jail. They've lost money, they've lost friends, they've lost freedom. Like, you know, it really sucks to be in Trump's orbit because he's such a user, and he doesn't really care what happens after that. So I'm not surprised. This has taken a real hit on Elon. Now, some of that is Elon's own doing, just being a maniac and a loser. But but it's also just Trump. Like, Trump is bad for people, and sometimes they don't even know it. And we both know friends who've gone into the administration, both Trump.1, 1.0 and 2.0, some of whom have gone to jail, some of whom can't get real work anywhere but, like, in Magaland. And, yep, I'm sure that's not where they'd like to be, but they. There's no polite society after Trump after you go in. Like, very few get to escape. And some of them, I'm very angry. Like, the media rehabilitates my network included, you know, which really bothers me. But, like, other than us, you know, no one's around to help rehab these people. And, you know, you have to know that going in. I don't know why Elon thought he would be any different.
- [37:24]
Andy Levy
Yeah, for sure. And that kind of leads me to something I want to talk to you about, which is you've been posting a lot of videos called Group Therapy.
- [37:32]
Essie Cupp
Yes. On my substack.
- [37:35]
Andy Levy
On your substack. Yeah. And it just, you know, it struck me as you were talking about all these people that go into Trump world and then come out and whatever, and I was, you know, because they really do need group therapy. But what are these videos that you're posting and why did you start doing them?
- [37:49]
Essie Cupp
I'll tell you exactly why. So I joined Substack because lots of people are, and it's a place for independent journalism. And even though I'm still in. I'm still in legacy media, both print and cable, there's other things I want to write about and do, and I can't always do that on CNN or in my column. So great spot to be creative. When I joined, as you can tell from the title pitching and snitching, it was meant to be a place where I would talk about TV and TV life and, you know, business of tv, but no one. No one wants me to do anything other than talk about politics. I am very quickly learning, and it's. It's annoying. I get it, but it's annoying.
- [38:30]
Andy Levy
Yeah. Yeah.
- [38:31]
Essie Cupp
So I actually got a call from Substack and, like, a Sherpa there who is. Who is, you know, guiding people with public platforms through the site to try and optimize their experience. And I got a call, and we started talking, and it was very clear that, like, if I want this to work, I'm going to have to do politics. Fine. And this was really a, like, very nice of her to. To give me this advice. And I said, but I don't have the answers. And it feels like on Substack, people really want answers, like, help me. What's gonna happen? Tell me it's gonna be okay. And the people that are doing very well on Substack in my sphere are doing that. They're, you know, there's. We're gonna fight. We're gonna do this. And I don't have that because I don't think it's gonna be okay. And I don't know what the answer is. And she said, that's okay. She said, that's okay. You just need to be there to commiserate and understand people and hear people and tell them, I feel the same way. So I said, so sort of like group therapy. And she said, exactly like group therapy, and that's what you should do. So, I mean, there's a real reason for it. That's what I decided to do. It's really fun, and I'm enjoying the interaction, you know, because we can talk to each other. And it's when you decide I don't have to have the answers.
- [39:46]
Andy Levy
Right.
- [39:46]
Essie Cupp
It's. It's really liberating. And no one has the answers. We're all pretending we do. But I don't know how this is going to end. I don't know what the future of conservatism is. I mean, you might have the answers because you know everything, but. Yeah, but it was really liberating to be told by someone, you don't have to have the answers. You don't know how this. You don't have to know how this is going to end. So I'm honest. I come by that very honestly and upfront with my followers on Substack. I will never lie to you. I am never going to promise to know more than I do, and I'm not going to hold back when I've got tough love for Democrats and some really harsh realities. I'm going to say it. And same on the right and everywhere else.
- [40:28]
Andy Levy
So that's why that's so cool.
- [40:30]
Essie Cupp
It's fun. There aren't a lot of spaces for that. Substack's a really cool platform for that.
- [40:36]
Andy Levy
Yeah, absolutely. Are you going to be interviewing anyone? Good.
- [40:40]
James Downey
Coming up.
- [40:40]
Essie Cupp
Well, I'm going to do a bunch more group therapies with. I just did, like, Joe Walsh on the day he announced he's becoming a Democrat. A bunch of those. But, you know, I have a. I have a podcast off the cup, which is at iHeart, and that's a mental health podcast. And again, a place where everyone comes on wanting to talk about politics, and I have to be like, Rob Morrow, we are not here to talk about politics. I know you want to, but, you know, that's just. It's how people know me. I get it. But it's a mental health podcast. Anyway, you will love this. And I haven't said this yet because we're still actually, like, putting this in place, but I'm going to be interviewing Jason Alexander on Off the cup, and I am so excited, but also very nervous. And, you know, I don't get nervous. I don't get starstruck. Like, there's a couple people that can do it to me. Like a Ricky Gervais. I think you were there when Ricky Gervais was, like, walking the halls in CNN at the old building, and I was like, oh, my God, oh, my.
- [41:33]
Andy Levy
God, oh, my God.
- [41:34]
Essie Cupp
I don't know what to say. I don't know what to do. I'm never like that. Speaking of, I'm also talking to Stephen Merchant about coming on the pod, but he's my favorite.
- [41:43]
Danielle Moody
He's so good.
- [41:44]
Essie Cupp
I'll be very nervous if that happens, too. But I need to know from you, because we're both die hard Seinfeld addicts. What's the thing I can ask him that? No one's asked him specifically about Seinfeld because I've got other things I want to talk to him about. He was in this great movie called Love, Valor, Compassion. I really want to get into that. But, like, on Seinfeld, what do you think is something I could ask him about that would be really interesting?
- [42:09]
Andy Levy
Well, it seems to me that it's a mental health podcast.
- [42:12]
Essie Cupp
Go listening.
- [42:13]
Andy Levy
And George Costanza was nothing if not a ball of neuroses.
- [42:18]
Essie Cupp
True.
- [42:19]
Andy Levy
I think there's something to be gained about. Like, if you wanted to be, like, ask him a serious question. It could be like, did you learn anything about your own mental health from playing a guy whose mental health and mommy issues and everything were so off the charts? Like, did it make him feel better about his own life? Or did it give him any insight?
- [42:44]
Essie Cupp
Or, like, how did he harness that? Like, where did. What did he pull from?
- [42:48]
Andy Levy
Right, exactly.
- [42:49]
Essie Cupp
To play that? Yeah.
- [42:50]
Andy Levy
Yeah.
- [42:51]
Essie Cupp
Oh, that's good.
- [42:52]
Andy Levy
And on top of that, knowing that George Cassandra is based on Larry David, like, factored that into the whole neuroses thing. So.
- [43:00]
Essie Cupp
Yes.
- [43:01]
Andy Levy
Anyway.
- [43:01]
Essie Cupp
Okay, that's good, that's good. But give me another. That's, like, later. Something that's like, you've always wondered because we've watched Seinfeld so many times.
- [43:11]
Andy Levy
I would, but my producer is now telling me we are way over time.
- [43:15]
Essie Cupp
Okay.
- [43:15]
Andy Levy
So I'll have to give you my answer off air.
- [43:19]
Essie Cupp
Okay, Just say hi to Dolly real quick.
- [43:21]
Andy Levy
Oh, hi, Dolly.
- [43:22]
James Downey
Hello.
- [43:22]
Essie Cupp
This is Dolly Parton.
- [43:23]
Andy Levy
Hello, Dolly. Yes.
- [43:25]
Essie Cupp
Oh, even better.
- [43:27]
Andy Levy
Yeah, even better before I get fired by our producer. Essie, thank you so much for coming on. Always a pleasure to talk to you. And I will, I will think on the.
- [43:36]
Essie Cupp
Yeah, you'll talk to me offline.
- [43:38]
Andy Levy
I'll give you. I'll give you your answer off air.
- [43:40]
Essie Cupp
I need some notes. Okay.
- [43:41]
Andy Levy
Yeah.
- [43:41]
Essie Cupp
Thanks, bud.
- [43:43]
Andy Levy
Thanks. I see.
- [43:45]
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- [44:40]
Andy Levy
Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mintmobile.com James Downey is a former editor and columnist for the Washington Post. He's written for the New Republic and Foreign Policy, and he's currently an editor and writer for MSNBC Daily. He joins me now. James, thanks so much for being here.
- [45:08]
James Downey
Thanks for having me.
- [45:10]
Andy Levy
I feel like every day in this country we play a little game called who is Donald Trump mad at Today? And on Thursday when we were recording this, one of the answers was Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell. That's nothing new. But what is it about this time?
- [45:25]
James Downey
So this time it's a very strange reason to be mad at Drone Powell, which is the ADP jobs report. That is not the official jobs report. That comes Friday morning. That is an official Jobs report. This is an unofficial jobs report. ADP is a payroll processor. And so they produce like a payroll, they say, oh, that so many payroll, you know, so many jobs have been added according to our numbers. And there's not a great amount of correlation between ADP and BL and the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the official ones. So, like, Trump could have ignored what this report, which is the worst report in two years, ADP showed 37,000 jobs added, which not a very good number. It's the worst since March of 2023. But again, Trump didn't have to bring it up, but he decided this was a good time to remind people that. Too late Jerome Powell, because Trump's nicknames have been cooked for years. Too late Jerome Powell needs to cut interest rates. When, of course, anybody who's read the, you know, everybody who's followed that discussion about interest rates and so forth knows that one of the reasons that Powell and the Fed have decided not to cut interest rates is the uncertainty created by Trump's tariff policy.
- [46:38]
Andy Levy
This is so funny to me because like you said, it's this ADP report and it kind of feels like you said Trump could have just said nothing about it. And if he had said nothing about it, I feel like maybe CNBC and other business networks might have reported it, but it certainly would not be like a blared out headline everywhere that ADP's jobs report was really bad.
- [47:05]
James Downey
Absolutely not. As you said, outside of cnbc, the business press, it would get maybe a headline, maybe like, you know, half a mention in like a roundup of news, but it wouldn't, it would not get nearly the attention that it did, except that Trump decided to call attention to it. I don't think he has any track record either of like, following the ADP report. I mean, there's nothing about Trump's, you know, it's not like he's, he's going through barons every day and like pulling out different economic and unemployment indicators. He wasn't, you know, he's not talking about what unemployment claims are like. So it's a really strange thing for him to call attention to.
- [47:44]
Andy Levy
I can only assume that someone on Fox News cited it.
- [47:47]
James Downey
I think that's quite likely. That seems to mean, you know, Matt Gertz and Media Matters, others have done a great job of documenting how unfortunately you can even today draw, you know, you can, you can watch Fox and Fox and Friends or whatever, and then you'll see like 20 minutes later him posting about something on true social media.
- [48:05]
Andy Levy
Yeah. And then as you Point out in the piece you wrote about this at msnbc.com, the Bureau of Labor Statistics figure, which is the quote, unquote official statistic that comes out Friday morning. So he literally, it's not like, well, we're not going to have a real number or, you know, an official number for two weeks. It's literally like the next day.
- [48:28]
James Downey
Yeah, well, you know, Trump, of course, is famous for his impulse control for his patients.
- [48:33]
Andy Levy
Yes, that's a fair point.
- [48:34]
James Downey
You know, a rare lapse here. But I think, yeah, as you said, like, it's quite possible and there are many examples and I mentioned a couple in the piece where ADP says one thing and Labor Department, the bureaucracy, says another. I mean, in the broad, in the, in the long run, they're generally both about the same, but sort of from month to month they can be very different. And there already was a lot of anticipation for this jobs report because jobs has been a relatively strong area, or at least not bad area. There hasn't been a lot of signs of, there's still been decent amount of growth, job creation. So, you know, there was a lot of attention being paid to this report already because people are wondering, well, you know, there's some signs of softening in the labor market. It is sort of creeping along like, you know, what happens if it starts to soften, you know, but combine that with the tariffs and other stuff, what happens? But he didn't need to call attention to it and now he has.
- [49:38]
Andy Levy
Yeah, yeah. And speaking of people being big mad, the girlies are fighting, as they say, Elon Musk is going after Trump's signature, so called big beautiful bill, which of course is anything but beautiful. But Musk started going on a Twitter tear and he retweeted a bunch of stuff that was against the bill and he himself posted things like, I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore. This massive, outrageous, pork filled congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination. Shame on those who voted for it. You know, you did wrong. You know it. So to paraphrase Casablanca, is this the end of a beautiful friendship?
- [50:23]
James Downey
Yeah, it seems to be trending that way.
- [50:25]
Andy Levy
Yeah.
- [50:26]
James Downey
I think there was a lot of skepticism first when they sort of started out, you know, getting together. I remember, you know, coming into, when they now saw Elon's screening administration, there were a lot of people, myself included, who are like, oh, these guys aren't going to last six months. But it really seemed like they were, you know, getting along. That really seemed to not be the case. And over the last two weeks, I am very skeptical. It feels like I think there's a good reason to be skeptical of anything Elon Musk and Donald Trump say. And, you know, whether it's about each other or whatever. And yet, if this is the ploy or whatever, if this is like, you know, Elon trying to distance himself, I think this has gone a little bit too far. It's been a pretty remarkable comeback for the these guys are going to fall out with each other theory. You know, just today, of course, they.
- [51:08]
Andy Levy
Were in the Oval Office.
- [51:09]
James Downey
Trump launched a bunch of barbs at him and Elon and then apparently responded on Twitter by just by brushing on, saying whatever. So it's been. It's been pretty crazy.
- [51:19]
Andy Levy
Yeah. And as we know, when someone responds and says whatever, it's absolute proof that they really don't care at all and that this isn't bothering them in the slightest.
- [51:30]
James Downey
Absolutely. Elon Musk is famous for not letting anything get under his skin.
- [51:34]
Andy Levy
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Let's talk about what Trump had to say on Thursday in the Oval Office. He compared Musk to other people who have left his administrations and then become hostile because, as Donald Trump said, they miss it so badly. He said he's very disappointed in Musk and that he said he's helped Elon a lot. So this doesn't look like. Cause I was curious like you, and as you said, like a lot of people, from day one, you know, we were like, well, this is gonna end really, really badly. And then I was curious when Musk started speaking out against this bill, if this was going to be the thing. But there were a couple other times I thought this was going to be the thing, and it wasn't. But this looks now like it might be the thing.
- [52:26]
James Downey
It really started to seem that way. I mean, as Trump said, everybody who leaves the White House develops Trump derangement syndrome. It's remarkable. I mean, it's almost like there's a common theme there. It's amazing how people who get even really close to Donald Trump would see him working up close, still come away being like, this guy's actually really bad at his job. Again, I, you know, I. I couldn't possibly hazard a guess as to why. I think that with. Yeah. With. But with Musk, I think to some degree, there's a certain amount of. He kind of sees the problems with this big, beautiful bill and maybe is trying to distance himself from that. But it is kind of remarkable that it's at this point just because it is Such a significant piece of Trump's first year agenda because, I mean, basically this is everything that he's trying to get through Congress.
- [53:18]
Andy Levy
So one of the things in the bill is that it cuts the EV tax credit, the electric vehicle tax credit, which obviously that tax credit has been very helpful to Musk and Tesla. Do we think that that is maybe the impetus here?
- [53:38]
James Downey
Well, Elon said last year that that definitely wasn't, you know, he was definitely in favor of it because it would, it would hurt Tesla's competitors more than, and, you know, his, his company was more, you know, was on a stronger footing. Now, of course, anyone's actually paying attention to Tesla's sales figures, let alone the stock price, since, you know, Musk was in the administration would tell you that if he did mean that at the time, it's certainly the company's not on as strong a foundation now as it was then. And then we heard stuff from behind the scenes that I believe Tesla spent about $240,000 lobbying for the EV tax credit. Mike Johnson, Apparen, apparently not just said in public, but also told Republican lawmakers behind the scenes that Musk had lobbied, or at least Tesla had lobbied for the credit. So it seems like that may have played a role. There's also questions about whether Musk, whether intentionally or not, when Trump dismissed the NASA, the nominee to run NASA that had been a Musk associate, that Musk took it personally. So there's a couple of little things that. There's a couple of possibilities, some substantive, some not.
- [54:39]
Andy Levy
Yeah, that's Jared Isaacman, I think.
- [54:41]
James Downey
Jared Isaac. Jared Isaacman, yes. And Trump claims that it's because of the donations to Democrats. But Isaac Man, I believe, or people close to Isaac man have said that he was forthcoming about that from the beginning, which would make sense because it's not like you could hide those. I mean, even this administration could have found, could find out easily that, you know, find out someone's campaign donation.
- [55:01]
Andy Levy
Yeah, no, for sure. This has now become fascinating to me and it really is possibly the, the, the best embodiment of the let them fight meme. I am so curious how this plays out. And like you said, it does feel like, like this maybe is the one, but with people like this, I guess they can always patch it up, right?
- [55:24]
James Downey
Yes, these guys can always patch things up. I think that as we see time and again when it comes to midterms and especially presidential elections, you know, people put aside grudges to work together. I think the only question here is that is whether Musk feels that his association with the administration is a negative for the value of the company. I think that's the one. You look at the stock price, I believe it's down at least last I checked it was down about 5% today because now that was because he was fighting with Trump. So I guess there could be a question as to whether that encourages him to make nice with Trump or. But I feel like that could also be interpreted as. And it's because it also fell a lot while he was in the White House that basically Tesla investors are telling him, please stay out of politics, please. And so much of Musk's value is wrapped up in, is still wrapped up in Tesla. So there are financial reasons for him to sort of stay clear of the show door at least, you know, because let's be honest, if he is going to be involved, he can't do it in a covert way. He just, he can't help himself. So I think for him it's an all or nothing, an all or nothing approach.
- [56:31]
Andy Levy
Well, the thing is, I mean, at least he can be secure in the knowledge that Trump would never, you know, use his power of the presidency in a vindictive manner.
- [56:41]
James Downey
No. There's no track record there. Well, no, actually the Supreme Court has told me though that nothing, you know, the. Basically said that that that's not possible. It's all part of the President's powers.
- [56:50]
Andy Levy
Right, Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [56:53]
James Downey
I think, I think Thomas is working on the follow up as we speak.
- [56:56]
Andy Levy
Yeah. How do you think that Musk speaking out so strongly against this bill, what kind of weight does that carry with Republicans other than Trump specifically, maybe Senate Republicans who eventually are going to vote.
- [57:11]
James Downey
On this legislation, unfortunately probably not going to carry too much weight. And I just say that because most of them are, I think mux main power at this point. If he wanted to push something would be a primary challenge. And I think in most of these cases, these guys are either in, in 52 of the 53 Republican senators. 52 of the 53, they're not fake. I don't think they're facing strong primary challenges. The 53rd is John Cornyn, who is going to get his butt kicked in Texas by Ken Paxton probably regardless. So I think that for them, I mean, you saw for example, Tommy. Well, Tommy Tuberville, who's now running for. Leaving. Leaving Washington. Oh, no. Going back home to run for governor of Alabama. He is now concerned about the snap, the custom snap, for example. I think that, you know, that's the sort of. But because he's running for governor of Alabama. I think those are the sorts of things that they are still more concerned about in the Senate, in the House. I think that because of the, because of the margin, I think it, it might stiffen the spines of the Freedom Caucus a little bit. But yeah, it, it would be very difficult to see at the end of the day how, I mean, the Freedom Caucus has already given in so many times at this point. It's hard to see how it's going to change. I just think that there's too much riding on this bill for Republicans to, I mean, because if this bill goes the way that the Obamacare Repeal did in 2017, that would be an even, it would be an even bigger disaster because this is, this is literally, this is like all they have, this is all they have for this year. And so I think, to borrow a phrase from a different, different part of politics, this bill is too big to fail. I think they're going to have, they just have to pass something at some point, not just Elon be damned, but also like polling be damned, because obviously a lot of the cuts and support are the opposite of popular.
- [59:06]
Andy Levy
Yeah. And look, we've now got, I know Marjorie Taylor Greene has basically said, oh, I, you know, I didn't know everything that was in the bill. If I'd known about certain things, I wouldn't have voted for it. I've seen other Republican representatives say similar things. So I hear what you're saying and I do think that like, you know, it's very easy to say after you voted for something, oh, I wouldn't have voted for that if I'd known. But it does feel like there is, you know, there's a little bit of backlash. I mean, Rand Paul has come out pretty strongly. A couple of the other more libertarian ish senators don't like a lot of things. So I, so I guess, I guess I was just wondering if, you know, maybe Musk joining in. Maybe like you said, maybe it stiffens the spine of even one or two more senators to make it enough to, I don't know, to either change this bill radically or sink it.
- [60:00]
James Downey
But like you said, though, I think it could stiffen their spines a little bit and maybe you end up with a slightly more. Because I think that although both sort of the moderate and the far right wings of the, of the caucus are both tend to have tended to cave at the end of the day in, in both this administration and the previous Trump administration, I think that I guess by must move forward. I do think that does Take off the table the possibility of a Musk funded challenger to someone like Paul because he didn't support Trump's bill. So I guess it does change the context. You know, they're not currently facing primary challenges.
- [60:43]
Andy Levy
Right.
- [60:45]
James Downey
And I think that, yeah, it does make it less likely they would face again like that kind of primary challenge, that kind of, I mean, because Musk is pretty much one, is not one of one, but one of maybe about 10 GOP donors who can single handedly bankroll a Senate primary challenge. And so having him removed and also of course he's got X to promote it and what. So having him off the board is a possibility of a challenge, you know, to your opposition to the bill? I think, yeah, that does probably change the calculus a little bit for the Johnsons and the Pauls. And so, yeah, I mean maybe it does make the bill a little bit more actually unfortunately more, you know, sort of even partial in the spending.
- [61:22]
Andy Levy
Right, right. Well that's the thing. It's like the, the, the, the, the Pauls and the people like that want more cuts and it's sort of like, you know, it feels like the people in the House who are now having regrets is mainly over some of the cut like the Medicare cuts or Medicaid cuts and stuff like that. So we sort of got, you know, a both sides thing going on here. But I guess my exit question is, and this is why I find this so fascinating is Republicans obviously have been enthralled to Donald Trump for a number of years now. And then it seemed like they were going down a similar path with Elon. And so to have the two of them now sort of butting heads, it's like who wins out as the cult leader. And I suspect as you're basically saying that it is Donald Trump. Yeah.
- [62:12]
James Downey
And I think you can affirm that from sort of the coverage from some places like Fox News and company. I mean it's, it's always going to be Donald Trump. There's too much at that point. There's sort of, I mean as, as, as powerful, as influential, as rich as Elon is. There's not the level of buy in frankly to his version of the world that Donald Trump, I mean at this point you've got a whole party that basically is bought in on the idea that that presidential election was stolen. You know, like, I mean, at that point, you know, getting coming back from that, it's just going to take a lot more than one fight with even your largest donor.
- [62:51]
Andy Levy
Yeah. And I guess bottom line also is they like Trump. And they don't like Elon Musk personally, it seems, because he's incredibly unlikable.
- [63:02]
James Downey
Because nobody likes Elon. Yeah, except those whose money depends on liking him.
- [63:07]
Andy Levy
Exactly. Exactly. James, thank you so much for coming on. This is so interesting. I could talk about this fight all day and I suspect we, we may be doing just that in the, in the upcoming weeks. Thanks again, James.
- [63:21]
James Downey
Thanks for having me.
- [63:24]
Danielle Moody
Andy. It is the end of yet another week in these divided states of America. How are you ending it with your. That guy?
- [63:35]
Andy Levy
My fuck. That guy is, I guess, maybe not, not the most political story, but it's definitely politics adjacent. And it involves the Washington Post. It involves a report from a New York Times media reporter, Ben Mullen, that the Washington Post is looking to get content from alternative sources other than its, you know, regular writers and opinion columnists. And the sources it seems to be looking at are substack contributors, which, fine, there are some really good people who write at substack. But then there's another one that they are calling non professional writers who will be aided by an AI editor. And so, according to Mullin's column or report in the New York Post, it says Ember, which is the name of the AI writing coach being developed by the Washington Post, could automate several functions normally provided by human editors, including. It would have a story strength tracker that tells writers how their piece is shaping up and it would help them come up with a memorable ending. And there would be a live AI assistant going on at the same time. I cannot overstate what absolute garbage this is. There are people out there who write professionally and there are people out there who write professionally who are quite good at it. And to elevate people who actually can't write and need an AI quote unquote writing coach, which, given the state of AI these days, might actually give you advice like take your computer and bash it into your face 30 times in a row. Because that's the kind of stupid shit we get from AI these days. Mainly because it's not actually AI and it's not intelligent at all. But to open up the Washington Post opinion section is, you know, it's supposed to be one of like the crown jewels of op ed writing. And, you know, we can argue as to whether it actually has been lately, but that's what it's supposed to be. And look, I don't have a problem to them opening things up to people who write at other places who might not be well known, people who, you know, have a substack have A blog, whatever, where there's someone reads it, it's like, hey, you know what? She's really good. Oh, he makes some really good points. Let's elevate them. I think that that's great as far as I'm concerned, but the whole idea of taking people who do not write for a living and who aren't good writers and saying, we're going to throw an AI writing coach in a room with them and we're going to turn out op EDS for the August Washington Post. Holy shit, that sucks. And so whoever came up with this idea, whether it was Bezos, whether it was CEO Will Lewis, they get a big old fuck that guy. The only thing I will say is whatever the AI writing coach comes up with with this non professional writer, I, I guess it's fair to say it won't be worse than anything that actual Washington Post columnist Mark Thiessen writes. So there is that.
- [67:00]
Danielle Moody
You know, it's just. Democracy doesn't only die in darkness, it dies with stupidity. And, you know, we are just dumbness. Yeah, we are just writing the end of our own story here. Like, it's just, it's. To think that you can replace professional investigative reporters, opinion analysts, like, with AI is just. I mean, it is the epitome of greed. And when did the Washington Post start to go down? Oh, I don't know. When it was bought by a billionaire, right. Who decided to, you know, just start to tweak some things. And we watched people lose their jobs. We watched democracy die behind a paywall. We watched all of these things happen. So, you know, why are you going to. You're basically going to turn it into what? We get a bunch of unpaid interns in there to like feed in stories to that, then pump it through AI and basically you start reading Cliff's notes like it's just. Yeah, fuck those guys.
- [68:04]
Andy Levy
Yep. All right, Danielle, it is. I had to think for a minute whether it was the beginning of the week or the end of the week for us.
- [68:10]
Danielle Moody
It's hard.
- [68:11]
Andy Levy
I'm fairly certain it's the end of the week for us.
- [68:12]
Danielle Moody
Correct?
- [68:13]
Andy Levy
Am I right?
- [68:14]
Danielle Moody
Yes.
- [68:14]
Andy Levy
Is that right? I can't tell anymore. Close us out. Who's your.
- [68:18]
James Downey
Fuck that guy.
- [68:19]
Danielle Moody
So here's the thing. Former press secretary Corinne Jean Pierre has made headlines and ruffled a lot of feathers and is getting a lot of hate right now because of the announcement that she has made with the rollout of her new book Independent, that she is leaving the Democratic Party. And she is doing this for a number of reasons that she lays out about the Democratic establishment and about the push to get Biden out of the presidential race over last summer in 2024. And there are a number of other things and the title of the book is Independent. And you know, my fuck that guy is not to Corinne Jean Pierre because she's doing what every single person has ever done that it gets inside of the White House, has a forward facing position, which is use that position in order to advance their career when they leave. Whether you are a member of Congress and you retire and head to a very lucrative a lobbying firm or you had to be on the board of Big Tech or Big Oil or Big Pharma or wherever, or you're a number of the members, former members of the first Trump regime that rolled off of his administration and either into Dancing with the Stars or into fucking book tours, when they actually had pertinent information that the American people needed to know, but they wanted to hold that information so that they could sell books. What I find really frustrating about the pushback to her is that to me it is racially coded because when you start referring to somebody as a, you know, as a. Just in it for the celebrity, just in it for the limelight and her, you know, her colleagues hated her and, you know, and they, they always had these issues and she gave lackluster press conferences and all of a sudden there were all of these attacks, none of which were happening while she was press secretary, dealing with a lot of consistent bullshit. And I don't remember any of this kind of level of commentary about other people writing books, namely white people writing books once they left office, or Jen Psaki, who was her predecessor, who rolled out of the White House into a prime time slot at msnbc. So the fact of the matter is, it's just, it's always what is good for the whites is not good for anybody else. What's good for the goose is not good for the gander. And I'm just like, whatever you think about her switch of party is her fucking decision. Plenty of Republicans have left the Republican Party, never Trumpers and, you know, what have you. And so I just think that a lot of this pushback to her is racially coded. It's not as if she wrote a book like, oh, I don't know, Tapper did about Biden's decline and the hide and all of these things. That again, is useless. So to me, the fuck that guy is a mainstream corporate media, which is namely a bunch of very angry white men that don't like to see anyone other than themselves make anything of themselves. So fuck those guys.
- [71:38]
Andy Levy
Well, speaking for my people, please do Danielle. Look, I don't care that she's leaving the Democratic Party in the sense that I'm not mad that she's leaving the Democratic Party. I don't. You know, we just spent an entire segment talking about these centrist Democrats and how much we don't like them and, you know, and we spend a lot of time talking about how ineffective the Democratic Party is in general. So I got no hate for. For someone who says, I don't want to be part of this party anymore. I get it. I think I'll give myself some cover here in saying that I have slightly different feelings than you do about what she's doing in terms of the book promotion and all that stuff. But my cover is. I think I've been pretty consistent about saying it. Like the other people you mentioned who were white. Do I think she's being a grifter? No, I don't. I think that word is way too strong. But I watched the video she put out, you know, for this, and it just, It. It really turned me off. I just thought it was really performative. There was a lot of hand over the heart stuff, you know, to let you know that she's really speaking and how important she felt it was to say all this. And it just. I don't know. I'm just. I'm sort of allergic to self promotion, which is unfortunate for, you know, things like this podcast, Danielle. And I'm really sorry about that. So when I see someone doing the whole this and like, instantly, I get, as the kids say, I get the ick. I don't even know if the kids still say that. They were definitely saying it for at least like a week or two at some point in the last year or so. So that's my slight pushback there. I do agree with you. Look, I think calling her a grifter for doing this is a bridge too far. I think that I believe that she is being sincere about this stuff. I just always find it unseemly when people come out of public office and then do stuff like this. Or as you said, or like Jen Psaki, like, basically say goodbye one day in your public job, and then the next day you're sitting at the anchor desk at MSNBC or whatever. Like that just always bugs me a little bit. So I kind of have similar feelings about this. So that's it.
- [73:54]
Danielle Moody
I appreciate your honesty, Andy.
- [73:57]
Andy Levy
We hope you've enjoyed as the world churns this is our last episode.
- [74:04]
Danielle Moody
Because Andy won't do any self promotion so well.
- [74:07]
Andy Levy
Yeah yeah.
- [74:11]
Danielle Moody
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