Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (5:14)

It's embarrassing.

Andy Levy (5:16)

Yeah, I mean he's definitely the weakest speaker of the House we've seen since the last guy.

Danielle Moody (5:21)

It's been so long since him. I know and I actually long for the days of McCarthy. Is that not insane?

Andy Levy (5:28)

I know you miss his limp Davil, don't you?

Danielle Moody (5:30)

I don't. I do.

Andy Levy (5:34)

You know, I said when I started that these Medicaid cuts are going to hurt not the people that they are telling you they're gonna hurt, but a different group of people. I wanna expand on that a little bit. We've seen a lot. Media Matters did a really good piece on this. You know, the Republican claim here is that oh, we are stopping able bodied men from collecting Medicaid. You had shills like Jesse Watters saying, you know, if you're 28 years old and healthy, you don't even wanna work, you just collect Medicaid. Which of course is, you know, one of those things that's absolutely not true. It really echoes the, the Reagan esque welfare queen. Sorry, the Reagan esque welfare queen rhetoric from back in the 80s for those of us old who remember that. But it's not just Fox News. It's a lot of the right wing stuff out there has been talking about. They keep saying, you know, able bodied people, able bodied people. And they make it sound like it's people who simply don't want to work and just want to collect Medicaid. Here's a couple of facts that Media matters pulled together. 92% of people on Medicaid are either working or have a disability or are doing things that exempt them from meeting work requirements. And I want to get into that because most of the able bodied non working Medicare recipients, 79% of them are women who live in rural areas who are caring for elderly parents or adult children. And they have maybe recently left the workforce because they have to be a caregiver. These are the people that this bill is screwing over. It's not some 28 year old dude who just wants to play video games all day. This is the classic Republican rhetoric of trying to first of all shame people who are depending on Medicaid because they are in fact a caregiver for a relative they are helping out, whether it's again, an elderly parent or whether it's an adult child that has problems. So it's just, it makes me so angry when people like Jesse Waters, who, let's be honest, hasn't worked an honest day in his life and is basically the recipient of conservative welfare, as most people these days on Fox News are when they sit there and say shit like this and they do not know what they're talking about and they don't care that they don't know what they're talking about. But for someone like him, some comfortable, privileged asshole like him, sorry for the language, sits there and talks about this and the people that are being harmed by this are people who are just out there trying their best, trying to take care of a sick parent or trying to take care of a disabled child, you know, and it's just, it's so disgusting and. But that's who these people are. And we know that.

Danielle Moody (8:47)

Danielle, you say those statistics and it conjures images, right? It conjures images of people who are.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (8:53)

Living, you know, like you said in rural America.

Danielle Moody (8:56)

Those are the people who don Trump hats, who went to his rallies, who applaud the deportations, who applaud the book bans, who applaud the cruelty and the harm. And here it comes back to them. And I, you know, I said this the other day, I said, you know, I don't know if any of those people, even given this, even given this bill that will ultimately cost, first of all, cost the American people more money, Right. But that they will regret their vote. And I don't know if I'm seeking regret or just like the I told you so at this point, but it's just like, I don't know how much collective pain is necessary for people to realize who the Republican fascist party is. And I think that this bill, if it passes the Senate, will destroy families, will destroy lives. Like, lives will be lost because of this bill. Right. Jobs will be lost because of this bill. Because not only that, and on later on in interview that I did, you know, the rollback in clean energy protections is going to cost this country almost a million jobs. Right? Almost a million jobs on top of America standing in the world as a, as a, as an innovator, as a change maker, leaving room for countries like China. So it, it's just like you take all of these things into consideration, and I mean, I don't believe that we will have midterms or elections again that actually are free and fair. But even if we do, I still feel that the people who are harmed by this will still think that, like, Donald Trump is fighting for them. I don't know what it's going to take. Maybe, you know, when we look more like Russia than we do America in the coming year, maybe that will wake them up. But I'm not holding my breath.

Andy Levy (10:53)

Yeah. And I want to point out one group that does know that Donald Trump is not fighting for them, and that's transgender people. And I want to point out something that this bill does. And a lot of people were talking about this online. The original bill had a provision in it that would ban Medicaid funds for being used for the care of, of minors in terms of transgender health care. In the middle of the night, they went ahead and dropped the language that had to do with minors. And the bill now bans care for transgender people, period, who are on Medicaid and also prohibits people who get their health care from the, from the health care exchange, Obamacare, the Affordable Care act, it bans those insurance policies from covering transgender care. And again, you talked about people dying, and here's just another example of that. And again, they sneak in this language because they pretend it's about the quote, unquote, kids, when we all know it's not. It's not about the kids, it's not about sports. It's just that they do not like transgender people. And so, again, we have to hope that this doesn't pass the Sandy, because this is going to be absolutely God awful for trans folks if this becomes the law of the land.

Danielle Moody (12:21)

There is nothing big or beautiful about this.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (12:23)

It's just bullshit.

Andy Levy (12:25)

Yep.

Danielle Moody (12:26)

Here we have now this. Like, there are some stories that come out these days, and I'm just like, the Onion must be out of business, right? Because the things that Donald Trump is saying, the things that are happening in the Oval Office feel like a fucking joke. And, you know, this week, I can't even say Donald Trump welcomed, but the South Africa, like, because that would be a lie. The South African president hosted. Hosted, I guess is the right word. So this week, Donald Trump hosted. Did South African President Cyril Ramaphosa to a meeting in this. Let me tell you something. This Oval Office is the. God, it looks like a pawn shop. It is so gaudy and gross. Like, I, like, honestly, it's like if you ask the, the, the. The interior designers of, like, the gaudiest Atlantic City city, trashiest hotel to redo the Oval Office, this is what you'd get. But aside from, aside from that, aside from that, President Ramaphosa shows up in, in the Oval Office and throws serious shade at Donald Trump and everybody. Like, and Donald Trump is just either too stupid or just like, Like, I, I think it's just that he's too stupid to get it. So he says to him, well, sorry, I don't have a plane to offer you, right? And basically calling out the fucking Qatar grift that Donald Trump has just openly accepted a bribe from Qatar in terms of a $400 million luxury plane that is going to cost the American people tens of millions of dollars to retrofit to, to turn it into Air Force One. President Ramaphosa is like, yeah, sorry, I don't have that. Because maybe then you would, like, give us some play, give us some consideration other than the fucking lies that you're spreading about white Africaners. And here goes this motherfucker talking about, oh, if you had a plane to give me, I'd take it. I could. Like, Andy, like, my.

Candice Rondeau (14:44)

I know.

Danielle Moody (14:45)

Like, I, I feel like the TMJ from my jaw Consistently dropping to the ground. Right. Like, is that going to be covered under insurance moving forward? Is it, Is this stress going to be covered? Because what the fuck.

Andy Levy (15:04)

It probably won't be covered because someone will think that the T stands for trans.

Danielle Moody (15:09)

You're right. You're right.

Andy Levy (15:10)

So. So they'll, they'll ban it. Yeah. I mean, look, Trump has President Ramaphosa over and he is just, you know, he's going on and on about this quote, unquote, white genocide in South Africa that doesn't exist.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (15:29)

Nope.

Andy Levy (15:30)

And this whole thing with the farmers and, you know, a whole bunch of organizations to their credit, published fact checks of this. You know, without getting into it, there is obviously, there is no genocide of white farmers in South Africa. It is a wholly made up thing. Like, it's not even that there is like a kernel of truth that's being exaggerated. No, it is simply completely being made up out of. Out of whole cloth, as they say. There's another story that Trump keeps telling about how they're taking land from white farmers and giving it to black people. This happens very, very rarely. It dates back to, you know, the ending of. Yeah. And it's been largely unsuccessful because around 75% of the privately owned farmland in South Africa is owned by whites.

Danielle Moody (16:27)

Correct. In a black country.

Andy Levy (16:30)

I just want, like, yes, South Africa is 80% black. Black people own 4% of the private farmland.

Danielle Moody (16:39)

And that seem, that, see, that seems right to Donald Trump and Elon Musk. That, see, that seems like that's accurate. Right? Like that.

Andy Levy (16:46)

But it doesn't seem right to them because apparently they're upset that it's not 100% owned by white.

Danielle Moody (16:51)

Yeah, you're right.

Andy Levy (16:52)

And this just goes on and on. Trump plays these videos, he shows these pictures that are not what he says they are.

Danielle Moody (17:00)

These pictures weren't even from South Africa.

Andy Levy (17:03)

They were from the Democratic Republic of Congo. You know, but he's trying to make it sound like this. These pictures of body bags were from South Africa. It's just, it is absolutely unbelievable. And, you know, I'm not on Twitter anymore, but some people were sending me tweets from people that we used to know who are going along with this 100%. And these are people who are not stupid. They have to know that all of this is bullshit, but they go along with it. Pretty much every single thing that Trump said to President Ramaphosa was simply not true.

Tony (17:39)

Yes.

Andy Levy (17:40)

And I guess I give Ramaphosa credit for staying calm. On the other hand, I wouldn't have minded if he didn't stay calm.

Danielle Moody (17:48)

Honestly, like, you know, I just. One day, one day I want one of these meetings to actually end with somebody slapping the shit out of him. Like, honestly, like, I know that people make those AI, like, generated videos. You know, they did it with Zelensky and, like, you know, and others. But one day I just want somebody just very quickly to haul off and slap the shit out of this man in the midst of one of his lies. And speaking of people that need to just be slapped, like, everyone just deserves to just be slapped at this point. And, you know, I know that I'm not supposed to condone violence, but, you know, at some point, you just going to push me too far. But so Democrats, okay, That's who I'm talking about. Democrats are once again talking about it's going to be, as Politico stated, chaos. Messy Democratic primaries could hurt party's chances of retaking the House. Because guess what? There are some folks who want to primary Democrats who aren't actually functioning like Democrats. I know that it's crazy. I know that we should just allow people to, you know, literally just sit in these seats and do absolutely nothing until they die there. And that just be what it is. We shouldn't question their inertia. We shouldn't want more for the country or for the party. We should just be happy with what we get. And so now people are talking about, oh, there's division. There should be fucking division. Because, look, and I will make say this, that sadly, Jerry Conley passes away, 75 years old. Cancer. Right? And that is horrible. It is a tragedy for him, for his family. However, establishment Democrats, knowing that this man had cancer, backed him to be the ranking member of oversight against a healthy, young, smart, sharp woman. That is Representative aoc. If that is not just. Andy, like, the, like the perfect picture of where Democrats find themselves in this moment. I don't know what is.

Andy Levy (20:25)

Three Democrats in Congress have died during this session, and that is obviously awful. Nobody wants them to die. But like you said, it is emblematic of what's going on with the Democratic Party here. And for them to now be sitting there, party insiders or whatever, complaining that, you know, oh, there's going to be this messy primary season. How awful is this? You know what? Do better jobs. Don't get primaried.

Danielle Moody (20:57)

It's so easy.

Andy Levy (20:58)

Stop. You know, maybe when you reach a certain age or a certain level of health, don't run for reelection. As you said, Daniel, it's so easy. This is so easily avoidable. This gerontocratic nonsense has to stop. That's what's hurting the Democratic Party. Not the idea that there are people out there that are looking at the work that their representatives are doing and thinking, I'm going to take a run at this myself because I don't like the job they're doing. That's not hurting the Democratic Party. I'm sorry. It just isn't. That's what you want in a healthy party. You want competition. You want people saying, I could do a better job. You are not entitled to that seat. There's this level of entitlement that you see from party leaders and party insiders, and it's just. No, I'm sorry. You are not entitled to that seat. And the fact that you've had that seat for 20, 30 years, I'm not saying there aren't upsides to that, but there are downsides. And regardless, that doesn't mean you should have it for another 10 years. There's a reason that there are elections every two years in the House and every six years in the Senate.

Danielle Moody (22:18)

In the Senate, Yeah.

Andy Levy (22:19)

And that's so people. That's a referendum on the job you're doing. And so if people are running against you. Yeah, I understand. You don't like that referendum. You don't like the fact that there are people out there saying they don't like the job you're doing. But as you said, Danielle, it's easy. Do a better job.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (22:36)

Do a better job.

Danielle Moody (22:38)

Honestly, I don't understand the idea that we should just get along, just keep on keeping on as if we're not experiencing and living inside of what the status quo in the Democratic Party has served us. Right. We're not just here in this political moment because of Donald Trump and Republicans. We're also here because of establishment Democrats that make money and hold their positions of power by holding up the status quo. And so for folks that want to shake this up, like the David Hoggs and others who are saying, if you're in a Democratic seat and you have either voted alongside Republicans are not, you know, a sure bet on our issues, you're gone. So you know what? No, you should not be. You should not be holding onto that seat with your cold, dead hands, essentially.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (23:39)

Is what we're saying, yeah, do a better job.

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Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (25:11)

Folks, I am so excited to welcome to as the world churns, Dr. Shata Chakrabarti who is a behavioral scientist and CEO of North America for We don't have time. I like the name and it also makes sense right now. House Republicans have rushed through or jamming through what many have called and what I call on this show all the time, a draconian budget. The big beautiful bill that's filled with big beautiful crap for the American people. Primarily one of the areas that they have been hell bent on zeroing out on rolling back are the clean energy initiatives that have helped us try and tackle the climate crisis that we are currently living in. Where we're seeing every, every season. Historic tornado season, historic fire season, historic hurricane season. Talk to us about why this is problematic at this time, at this stage of where we are, when climate change is no longer up for debate about whether or not it's happening. It's here and what these rollbacks will do.

Tony (26:26)

These rollbacks are gutting the American economy. That is the number one takeaway from what's happening here that should be at the forefront of all Americans minds and because all the jobs that were being created, everything that was, you know, in motion, forget it being a benefit to planet. Of course we need to usher in a clean energy area era. We need to transition as fast as possible. But even if we remove the benefit to the planet, we are still removing 830,000 jobs by 2030. Think about that for a second. These would have been cleaner, healthier, you know, better wealth producing jobs for Americans. And they're just being taken away by this bill. So that is what's so asinine about this is first and foremost the economic detriment to the American people. It's going to cost the United States more than a trillion in GDP by 2034. I mean, talk about the highest debt ceiling we've ever had. This is just hurting America's economy, making us less relevant as a global player and as somebody who's been on, who's been traveling outside of the US because it's been relatively depressing here. As Hugh and your audience well knows, we are just, we're not competitive on the global landscape anymore. We are just handing on a silver platter, the future of jobs and markets and energy to China. Right? And we're also increasing, this is the most obnoxious of it all is we're increasing the price of power and energy by 50% by 2035. And that means something like an additional $100 minimum for Americans. On average, you're going to be paying $100 more every year in your energy bill. And we have the technology to reduce that cost for Americans. We have the technology to reduce the cost and have global citizens access energy. And we are making it harder for people in the United States, the most developed country in the world. We're making it harder for them to access energy and we're taking money out of their pockets because of it. So this ultimately is the biggest disaster coming out of this bill is just how much of an economic hurt this is going to be to everyday Americans.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (28:41)

You know, I've long thought that the conversation around climate change needed to be an economic one, that it was going to be an economic imperative. Because even if you just take again, the disasters that we've experienced in this country, whether it be the fires that burned for, for weeks in California or the 23 or so tornadoes that touched down in the Midwest most recently, that the damage to those places amounts to billions of dollars, right? Billions of dollars that we know that this federal government, through fema is no longer going to supply to states and pretty much saying, like, you're on your own, which is what Trump did to the state of Alabama when they were, when they asked for federal funds for, for recent storms, he said, I think that the state can manage it do.

Danielle Moody (29:34)

You think though that that line of.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (29:36)

Thinking would work better with the American people? Not just those that are like creating policy or gutting policy, but that a message around jobs and creation and innovation would work better than just talking about what Again, it should be enough to say that the planet is dying and we're killing it and we're killing our ability to be able to live and thrive and we're creating climate refugees in this country and around the world.

Danielle Moody (30:07)

That should be enough. We know that it's not.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (30:10)

So do you think that Democrats picking up, for instance, a Democrat a economic message around climate change would be more resonant?

Tony (30:19)

I think we've learned that the hard way. We see from the Kamala Harris election loss that it really, that's the top line messaging that probably wasn't touted enough to really understand what is, what is top of mind for everyday Americans. Ultimately it is the money in their pockets, right? So I think the economic argument as a top line makes sense and should be sort of what we lead with. But then as a behavioral scientist who studies communication, my ideal gold standard for communicating to Americans or just generally to audiences is to understand what they care about. And we haven't taken the time to do that. Whether we're talking politics, climate change, infectious disease, all these different issues that ultimately their Americans decisions are going to impact, we haven't taken the time to understand what their perceptions are before we communicate to them. So what I mean by that is actually asking them the questions, right? What is it that you care about? We've understood, for example, let me give you an analogy to the climate conversation, which is about eating less meat, right? Eating, going from animal protein to more plant forward diets. And if you ask consumers why they make the switch, those who do from animal protein to plant, they'll say one of three things. They'll say because it's a moral, it's, it's a moral imperative that we stop factory farming and we treat animals better. That's one. And it could be some combination of all three of these, but it's usually one stands out more. So one is that it's a moral imperative. The second one is that it's a sustainability issue, right? It's better for the planet that we do this. And then the third one is that we, it's a health issue. We want to just feel better. This is better for our bodies. So we have taken the time, the animal agriculture industry and those who fight against it have taken the time to understand what these perceptions are for their special Interest, whatever that might be. As a climate community, we haven't taken the time to understand what really drives human behavior, to be able to communicate accurately. So if we segment audiences and ask what is it? What is it that you care about as it relates to climate? Those who have experienced disasters or disaster adjacent, right. Those who have actually lived through some sort of hurricane or flooding event or drought will probably say that it is the risk of being in another disaster or you know, their first disaster. Those who haven't had that direct experience or adjacent experience. And this is the behavioral scientist in me again in understanding cognitive behavior, you know, cognitive perceptions of what's a risk and what isn't. Those who haven't experienced those risks firsthand or can't understand them. We should make the economic argument to them, right? Because that's what worries them first and foremost more. Or we make the health argument because air pollution is infecting them and their future generations. We're seeing increased allergies, we're seeing increased respiratory diseases. All of these sorts of things are examples of how we can communicate to and reach audiences based on what's important to them. And that's something we really need to step up and do better of. We shouldn't just throw spaghetti at the wall. Let's throw some social science at this, if anything, and understand perceptions to better communicate, to ultimately see behavioral change. Like voting, voting for the right president. We wouldn't be in this mess had we done that.

Danielle Moody (33:38)

Correct.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (33:38)

I think that that is really interesting because I feel like to a certain extent we hear at least that people.

Danielle Moody (33:45)

Are polled all the time, right.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (33:47)

Like that's how candidates, whether they be local, state or national candidates, decide what issues they're going to run on.

Danielle Moody (33:55)

Right.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (33:55)

They focus group people to hell. And I always say I'm just like, are you focus grouping the right people?

Danielle Moody (34:00)

Right.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (34:00)

Like whoever you believe to be this, this quote, unquote, you know, perfect example of American, who is that person? Where do they live and what are their daily experiences? And so when you say that we need to ask them, what does that actually look like? And have you seen it done? Well, for instance, in the other countries that you travel to.

Candice Rondeau (34:21)

Yeah.

Tony (34:21)

I mean, it needs to be academic driven and rather than where everyone's looking for a quick fix. Right. But we need to take the time to actually use our knowledge, especially in the United States, where we have the best institutional research still to this day available out of anywhere on the planet. The United States should be driving research based communication. And ultimately the outcome of that is better Politicians being elected. And we are seeing pockets of that. We're not seeing a major collaborative effort because too many institutions are just out for themselves ultimately and just protecting their endowments. And it's not of benefit yet for institutions to collaborate. So we have to change that fundamentally. But we're seeing pockets of this. We're seeing, for example, Reverend Yearwood is running Climate Revival with Antonique Smith and they're going to talk to underserved communities that have not, that have been historically disenfranchised, whose voices are not part of the conversation, that haven't been heard. And they are sampling these communities through trusted spokespeople, like church leaders and, you know, soccer moms, et cetera, those that are community leaders and that are influential to these different audiences. If we took the time to do that, if we really segmented America and took random samples from these segments and then were able to communicate to them through trusted spokespeople, we would see such a change in understanding the perceptions of climate, the perceptions of what it means for repealing these policies. Because to the average American, it doesn't mean anything. They didn't see an immediate benefit from the Inflation Reduction act and they're not going to see an immediate harm. But if we're able to communicate what it means in terms of an equitable future for communities through trusted spokespeople, then we don't have to get into the nitty gritty wonky policy, but we're talking big picture and ultimately garnering support for voting behavior and voting in elected representatives that are aligned to science and data and evidence. Right. What is it that we want? Ultimately what we want is politics and policy to align to science and evidence and data. Not these alternative truths, alternative facts, but that science that we have, science based policymaking, that's the most secular, that's the most fair, that's the most equitable way forward. And the way to do that is to really sample randomly communities so that we can get an understanding of what the United States really looks like, what they care about, what their perceptions are. And it's going to vary a lot. What communities in Cancer Alley care about are going to be health as it relates to climate and these policy actions that are happening at the federal level. What residents In Toms River, NJ care about is why they can't, you know, why they can no longer live on these barrier islands that were flooded out during Hurricane Sandy. Right. So we have to take the time to understand the different perceptions that exist in communities across the United States, find those trusted Spokespeople create relationships with them and ensure that messages are being put forward in a way that are going to resonate and that behavior is going to be an outcome of that message. We don't need to, we don't need to hit people over the head with numbers. That doesn't work. We know that doesn't work. That's like Communication Science 101. Let's actually deploy trusted spokespeople instead. There's an idea, another thought that I.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (37:45)

Want you to unpack for us as well, which is this. Right. You spoke earlier about the fact that basically the Republican Party, with this rollback in climate, energy, research, science, like truth, data, all of these things are creating a vacuum right in the world, one that China is readily walking into. Can you speak more to that? And what China and other countries are doing and what you foresee happening with America's role in the world from taking this major step back.

Tony (38:22)

Oh, this one hurts because America used to be where everyone wanted to go. I'm an immigrant, right? I'm the daughter of immigrants. And I remember just how proud our family in India was when my parents made it over to the United States. And then I was the first generation born here and it was it. I, I think that existed pretty much until the most, till the first Trump election, where the United States was still seen as the gold standard for ingenuity and for leading in the future. And the future is a transition to clean energy. And we had in Biden's administration this goal, this could have been accomplished. There was a pathway to accomplishing full electrification of transportation by 2030. And so not only is that not happening, it's been picked up by China. And I think one of the most shocking, or rather, you know, the biggest about face that I've experienced in my lifetime as, as being a daughter of immigrants is the United States going from being that gold standard and leading on all things transition to clean energy. More more recently, all things just innovation, right? Just innovation that, that is founded in science, that's entrenched in science, that supports a future that is brighter and more breathable and more equitable. All of these things that America stood for. That about face is probably the biggest shock to me in my generation because I now see those same family members that were excited about us being Americans, they're kind of, they're saying how sorry they are for us and a lot of the next generation, so my cousins, for example, and their kids are looking to Asia to travel to and study. And China is really picking up the mantle Here, in terms of this transition, of course, there's still a massive polluter and there's human rights abuses. And the last thing we want is for China to become the global leader for those reasons on the transition to clean energy. But anywhere you go now in the world, you're seeing electric cars. China's really taken over Chinese electric cars. They've really taken over the global market for that and they, they're really building the infrastructure around that as well. So if to purchase a electric vehicle, it's going to be a Chinese electric vehicle and then all of the accessories and bells and whistles that comes with it is also being produced from China. So we really just handed over a lot of our potential market share and a lot of our potential future innovation, which is what attracts the best and the brightest from around the world. We've handed that over to China and other countries. So what does that mean for the future of the United States? Right, as in what's in the pipeline? If we are not leading the future of clean energy, what is in our pipeline? What is American America going to be known for? Some, like, throwback to some nostalgic future that is never going to exist again is just not going to happen. It's some delusional fantasy is being propagated by the current Trump administration and instead the reality and the future of the planet and who leads it, we've handed over to Asia and China specifically.

Danielle Moody (41:21)

I'll tell you, because I too am.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (41:23)

A child of immigrants and I will say that it is, I think that that for me is probably one of the most heartbreaking things about where we are, is how my family came from Jamaica and how like, excited and proud they have been of making it right in to America and making it in America and living out what they believe their American dreams were, only to now be in a space of thinking about going back to Jamaica because America is no longer safe.

Tony (41:55)

Exactly.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (41:56)

But it also, you know, again, what you're speaking to a lot of is the brain drainage, right, Is the fact that the bright thinkers, the innovators, the change makers are not going to see America as a place that they are going to come for university, that they're.

Danielle Moody (42:12)

Going to come, you know, for jobs.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (42:14)

And so what does that mean? I think that it means that America becomes a shell of itself. I think that America is going to look more over these next four, you.

Danielle Moody (42:22)

Know, four years plus, it's going to.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (42:25)

Look more like modern day Russia than it is going to look like anything else, which is depressing as hell.

Tony (42:32)

So I was in Europe recently for work and I walked into a restaurant and it was a Russian waitress. And she asked where I was from and I said, America. And she said, welcome to the club. That's what I heard. And I didn't, I didn't process it immediately. I sat down and I was like, do you mean what I think you mean? And she's like, yeah, the world is viewing you the way the world views Russia. So welcome to the club. Audiences can't see our faces right now.

Danielle Moody (42:58)

But oh no, they'll see. Like, that is fucking awful.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (43:02)

Since that is awful.

Tony (43:04)

Within four years we have joined the ranks of Putin's Russia. I mean, this is, we're worried about coming back into the United States. We were talking about this and this is not the America that our parents brought us to. This is not what we were excited about growing up in and having our children. We thought we were going to be propagating the American dream and instead we're watching it fold in front of us because ultimately, especially with this, with this bill that just made its way through House, I mean, very tightly, right? But still it made its way through the House despite the Republicans that recognize that so much of the benefits of the inflation reduction act and all of the, what's already been passed is benefiting Republican districts. It's a New York representative that is leading 20 Republicans to try and ensure that these, that, you know, the, the repeal doesn't affect their districts because ultimately this legislation is creating jobs and benefit and economic opportunity. It's going in the right direction and Republicans see that. They just need to have a spine right now so that we are not, we are not, we are not bringing into reality a future that we can see what it would look like because it's Russia.

Danielle Moody (44:21)

Yeah.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (44:22)

Well, we will leave it there today. Dr. Chakrabarti, I thank you so much for your time and just your, your honesty and laying out the picture of where America is headed for us. Really appreciate you.

Tony (44:36)

Thank you so much.

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Andy Levy (46:06)

Yevgeny Prigozhin was a close ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin right up until a few months before the plane he was on mysteriously exploded. Crashed en route from St. Petersburg to Moscow in August of 2023. My next guest is the author of the new book Putin's Sledgehammer, the Wagner Group and Russia's Collapse into Mercenary Chaos. This book takes a look at Prigozhin's life as well as the history of the paramilitary organization he led known as the Wagner Group. Candice Rondeau directs Future Frontlines, a public intelligence service for Next generation Security and Democratic Resilience, and the Planetary Politics Initiative at the New America Foundation. She's also a professor at Arizona State University and she joins me now. Candice, thanks so much for being here.

Candice Rondeau (46:52)

Thanks for having me on.

Andy Levy (46:54)

It felt like maybe not too long after Putin's invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Yevgeny Prigozhin and the Wagner group were suddenly very much in the news. Tell us how we got here, starting with Prigozhin. What's his origin story?

Candice Rondeau (47:08)

Yeah, I mean, it's a long arc and it does not bend toward justice. I can say that straight up. Yeah, I mean, you know, Yevgeny Prigozhin begins his life in St. Petersburg. He's born into an okay middle class family, but very quickly. His father dies when he's very young. His mother is actually a doctor. And so they're, they're, you would consider them sort of upper middle class, nice sort of Jewish family, or at least sort of mixed Jewish and Christian family. Sort of the tail end of the Soviet era. Although nobody knew it was the tail end then. He grew up having this ambition to become a ski master. Actually he was a champion cross country skier. His stepfather got in a place at the, what was then the number one Olympic academy in the country in St. Petersburg. He went to school as a young boy at boarding school, as a young boy with Olympic champions. So he had these kind of grand visions of what his future was going to be like. Didn't really work out that way. What we know is that he had some sort of accident that threw him into a life of crime. And he was a young teenage gangster running around the streets of St. Petersburg terrorizing local neighbors. And that got him his first, you know, duel with prison. Basically he spent nine years in prison on charges of violent assault and buggery, which was kind of a crime then in the Soviet Union.

Andy Levy (48:46)

Right.

Candice Rondeau (48:47)

And, and he kind of actually kind of transformed his life in prison. That's one of the things that's really important to understand about him because of course, as you know, later on he becomes very involved in recruiting prisoners to join his army. So his origin stories start there, but his political career or his importance to Russian history and his nexus to Putin starts at the start of the collapse of the Soviet Union. He comes home from prison to St. Petersburg. His father, his stepfather has a hot dog business that he helps manage, and he grows it into this sort of mini empire of kiosks. And around the same time, Vladimir Putin is returning home from a long stint in East Germany as a KGB agent where he had been handling so called illegals, undercover spies that were distributed all across Europe. Their roads converge just as the Soviet Union is collapsing and Vladimir Putin becomes deputy mayor. And he also becomes basically the man with his hand on the lever of almost every aspect of business in the city of St. Petersburg, including licensing casinos, licensing grocery stores, licensing restaurants. And it just so happened that Yevgeny Prigozhin had interest in all three of those businesses. And they were brought together in part because of that sort of business relationship. Over time, he became, I think Prigozhin became a really trusted but shadow aide for, for Putin's political retinue. Importantly, he became the Kremlin's chief caterer. And he, you know, right. Like he kind of provided Putin with banquets for kings and queens whenever there was like a state visit from the US President. Famously, of course, he provided dinner for George and Laura Bush when they visited St. Petersburg on several occasions. And so his rise to power was really very much tied to Putin's rise to power. And he followed him, at least his businesses started to follow Putin to Moscow. And most importantly, he became a defense contractor extraordinaire in the early 2010s, as the Russian military was transforming itself. So the story, kind of the origin story of Prigozhin begins there, but how he ends up leading the Wagner group is a whole other story.

Andy Levy (51:16)

Well, let's get into that a little bit. So what's sort of the origin story of the Wagner group and then how do they intersect?

Candice Rondeau (51:23)

The origin story of the Wagner group is really about structural factors in the political economy of a country that has just gone through one of the greatest economic free falls probably in recent modern times. The collapse of the Soviet Union led Russia into this raging debt pit. It inherited the debt of its partners and neighbors, so notably Ukraine. It inherited debt from overexpenditure on the war in Afghanistan. And one of the most important things is while Prigozhin and Putin are making their way and sort of cutting it up as sort of new masters of the universe in St. Petersburg, there is this rise of sort of two important forces at the same time. And one is the rise of the mafia class, these kind of criminal underground contingents, most notably the Tambov crew, that start to merge with the security agencies in terms of an alignment of shared interests. There's kind of a marriage of convenience. And most importantly, they are the source of hiring of former Afghan Russian veterans who served in the Afghan war, who were really this huge disaffected group of men on the order of certainly over a million, who sort of churned through, one way or the other, Afghanistan and the military over the 10 year period before the collapse. This merger between the mafia state, the mafia and state security agencies and the veterans is kind of the soup or the sea out of which the Wagner group grows from the 1990s. The real kind of catalyst was a decision by the Duma and Putin at the time to try and reorganize state enterprises, most notably Gazprom, which is the big gas company, Rosneft, which is a huge oil company, and then what we now know as Rostec. Those three companies provide huge amounts of sovereign wealth for, for Russia. And in 2007, Putin and the the Duma passed legislation allowing those companies to hire their own security agencies, which effectively allowed them to hire their own private paramilitaries. But they're only kind of private in name because the, or, you know, the organizations that they work for. These state enterprises are literally controlled end to end by the Kremlin, even The, you know, the chiefs of staff, the chief, the CEOs of these, you know, of Gazprom, Rosneft, Rostec, they're all presidentially appointed, so they're only private in name, basically. It is there that you start to see the burgeoning of these small private military contingents. And it is in 2013, on the tales of the Arab Spring uprisings that really rock everybody's world, including Putin's, that Putin and Russia's military leaders begin to insert these private contractors into Syria as a means of supporting Bashar al Assad. So really, people think of the beginning of the Wagner Group as 2014 in Ukraine. It's actually much earlier than that. It really starts with the Syrian war. That's the big catalyst because Russia doesn't want to go full bore because of the risk of confrontation with the United States. And so they send in these ghost warriors. Basically. It's including most notably Dmitry Utkin, who is the, the sort of nom de plume, as it were, or the nom de guerre. Wagner comes from Dmitry Utkin. He adopted that call sign back when he was working in Syria and then later in Donbass. So the origin story is really about sort of the economics of collapse and then the economics of trying to revive Russia's state owned industries. And the mix here, the glue was that mafia culture and those veterans that were disaffected. It really starts there. Wow.

Andy Levy (55:38)

And the Wagner group was known for its brutality. And when I say known, I don't mean that there were like whispers about it. I mean, they very much wanted it to be known and they very much publicized their brutality, didn't they? There are stories you tell in the book that I gotta be honest, I wish I hadn't read.

Candice Rondeau (55:59)

Well, I wish I hadn't watched all that footage. I gotta tell you. I'm sure, God, I probably watched the, you know, the footage of the, the, the sledgehammer murder of, of Hamdi Bhuta I don't know how many times. And it still haunts me to this day, to be honest with you. Yeah, I mean, look, the, the Wagger group is a reflection of all of the things that, you know, I've just mentioned. Mafia culture, you know, disaffected veterans, you know, tough guys who are brought up in tough guy military culture. And for, for folks who are not as familiar with Russians, Russia's military apparatus, one of the more notorious branches for brutality, or at least, you know, for psychological warfare, is known as the VDV Airborne. VDV just stands for airborne forces, basically. And so the airborne forces of Russia, they're also known as the Blue Berets. They're kind of like our, you know, Green Berets in terms of kind of, you know, the legendary macho man, you know, out there doing hard stuff in hard places. So that's most of the early cadre of the Wagner group came from the, from the airborne forces or other elite, you know, shock troop forces that were part of, you know, the interior forces, police, you know, elite police forces as well. And so they all had that mental cast of like, brutality wins the day, basically. And in the Wagner group, there was a sort of sadism, actually. You know, there's one defector that I talked to. His name is Marat Gabi Dul. And he talked about how the commanders in the Wagner always wanted to be more cruel than Prigozhin. They wanted to, to show their loyalty to Prigozhin. They often did like really crazy stuff to prove their prowess. And it became a little bit of a kind of self licking ice cream cone in a way, this brutality. But also, of course, there is a value in sort of broadcasting or advertising your appetite for brutality. Right. Especially in places where you're at war, you're trying to control contested territory. If people think that Wagner is cruel and that Wagner is coming, you know, maybe people will back off and, you know, there'll be less resistance. So that's really what it's about.

Andy Levy (58:24)

Okay, so we have this, we have this history of the Wagner group, which is now being used in Ukraine. We have the longstanding close relationship between Putin and Prigozhin. And one of the things you write about is how secretive that relationship was for so long. And it went back much further than I guess we sort of originally knew. But how does all of that come crashing down in 2023? For those of us not in the know, it seemed very sudden. You have a trusted ally who launches what is essentially a coup attempt, and soon after that, he dies, more than likely killed by the man he turned against. But you say there were actually signs earlier than that that there was going to be this fracture between these longtime allies, right?

Candice Rondeau (59:09)

Yeah, absolutely. I think there are structural factors and then there's just like personality problems that came up. Right. The structural piece was Yevgeny Prigozhin and the Wagner group as a brand, as a concept, you know, having a proxy army that would fight, you know, in these foreign wars, like in Syria, Mali, Sudan, Central African Republic, Libya, having that kind of capacity is super useful as long as it's deniable. Right, Right. As long as you can kind of paint a picture that the Kremlin has nothing to do with those people who are involved in their own private corporate enterprise. And that starts to break down almost the minute the Wagner group is called to mobilize to the front line in. In Ukraine. Because now you're in a situation where it's clear that Russia has called them first of all. Right. And that they've answered the call coming from the Kremlin.

Andy Levy (60:06)

Right.

Candice Rondeau (60:07)

It's clear that they're fighting on the side of Russia. And there's no sort of two ways about it, basically. So the. The mask or the veil is lifted very quickly in spring of 2022. But it's really when Yevgeny Prigozhin steps out of the shadows and into the limelight with that very famous video where he's in the prison courtyard saying, like, join Wagner. What do you got to lose? You know, you could spend your life here, you know, rotting away in this prison, or you can go on the front line and gamble, and maybe you'll get amnesty, but your families will get money no matter what happens. That was like this moment of sort of revelation, I think, for the world, not for me, and I think not for people who are paying attention to what was going on with Prigozhin. But that was a big revelatory moment. But it was precisely at that moment that Prigozhin became even more, less useful. Right. The minute that he appeared to be somebody who was tied to Russia, he was also, therefore, tied to all of these atrocity crimes and war crimes that had occurred all over the world in the name of the Wagner group, in the name of Russia. So that was a huge liability. So that's a structural factor. It's just the minute that the Wagner group kind of came out of the shadows, the plausible deniability factor and the usefulness and the relevance became less of a factor for Putin. But I think the other piece was that there was this ongoing rivalry and people who were paying attention to the Wagner group, and it dated back years between Yevgeny Prigozhin and Sergei Shoigu, who was then the Minister of Defense, a guy who had no military training, just like Prigozhin. Neither one of them had any military training, but they both wanted to be, you know, big major domos. They had a lot of bad blood. And there were lawsuits, for instance, between the Ministry of Defense, the Kremlin, and Prigozhin's companies that were leaked. We could see those in the files, you know, there were near fisticuffs between some people who were associated with Defense Ministry that were meant to be rivals to Prigozhin and so forth. But it's really in April of 2023. And you might remember this actually, when Yevgeny Prigozhin, he's out there on the battlefield, everybody knows him, and then suddenly there's a bombing, right, where this young military blogger, ultranationalist military blogger, who's pro Wagner, associated with the Wagner group very publicly and had been given permission by Prigozhin to run, you know, this kind of military blogger cafe scene out of one of his restaurants in St. Petersburg. Well, he gets blown up in April 2023, and there couldn't be any more clear message, I think, that, you know, that somebody was coming for Prigozhin. So, I mean, there were a lot of these little hints. Many of them were subtle. If you weren't really paying attention to the long history of Prigozhin's relationship with Putin.

Andy Levy (63:06)

Yeah, it's so fascinating. And as you say in the book, I only have, like, a minute left, but I want to get to this. Much of what we came to know about Prigozhin was due to the extraordinary and sometimes extraordinarily dangerous work of journalists, dissidents, online investigators like bellingcat. But speak a little to that and how important these people were to uncovering all of this.

Candice Rondeau (63:29)

Yeah. Yevgeny Prigozhin's downfall was really the fact that he couldn't keep anything secret. And so many people were obsessed with trying to uncover what was behind the Wagner group. I want to just absolutely mention Bellingcat, but of course, there are a lot of Russian reporters, Ukrainian reporters, who really put their lives on the line to, you know, to tell this story. And if it hadn't been for them, I don't think we'd know today anything about Yevgeny Prigozhin. And maybe he'd still be alive, frankly, if all of those secrets hadn't been revealed.

Andy Levy (64:01)

Right. Wow, that's so interesting. The book is Putin's Sledgehammer. It is out now. It's an absolutely fascinating look at this story, and I encourage people to go pick it up. Candice Rondo, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

Candice Rondeau (64:13)

Yeah, thank you.

Andy Levy (64:16)

All right, Danielle, let's close out this week. This is week. Is this week three. That's the world changed.

Dr. Shata Chakrabarti (64:23)

Yes.

Danielle Moody (64:24)

Yeah.

Andy Levy (64:25)

All right, cool.

Danielle Moody (64:25)

Happy anniversary.

Andy Levy (64:27)

Happy third week anniversary. A very. A huge one. Generally considered. The third week is generally considered A really big anniversary. Or maybe that's just for me because I rarely have relationships that last that long.

Danielle Moody (64:39)

Oh, shit. Well, our relationship has lasted for years, so I love that part.

Andy Levy (64:44)

That's true. That's true. Helped by the fact that we've never met in person. Probably. Probably. So who is your. Fuck that guy to close out week three, so.

Danielle Moody (64:55)

Oh, God, you know, he's a new, he's a, he's a, he's a new person to put into our marble fuck that guy hall of fame. The disgust that I have in my mouth for the one senator Cory Booker. A couple of weeks ago, I was singing your praises, Cory Booker. I was talking about how, you know, sometimes political theater is necessary in order to disrupt the status quo. That you're 25 and a half hour filibuster on the floor to talk about how fascism has come to America and that we cannot continue to do what we've always done. Right. That you wanted to sit there and quote John Lewis and talk about good trouble. I was on your side. And then this week happened. And what happened this week? Well, following his 2020 pardon for federal crimes, Charles Kushner, a convicted felon, Jared Kushner's daddy, has been nominated, of course, because there's nothing that gets you nominated more and elevated in Trump world more than having a rap sheet, right? So he gets nominated to become the ambassador to France and is sitting before the Senate for his confirmation hearing. And Cory Booker was the lone fucking Democrat to vote yes on his friend Charlie's confirmation. And I just want to remind people about the character of Charles Kushner. Not only was he found guilty for, for bribes and for, I think, for insider trading and what have you, this man hired a prostitute to sleep with his sisters husband, videotape it to send as blackmail to his sister so that she would stop cooperating with the feds against him. What in the succession mob type of shit is that? That's his family. Yeah, I, I, when I read that, I'm like, what in the Lifetime movie is this?

Andy Levy (67:33)

It's some Game of Thrones shit.

Danielle Moody (67:34)

It's some Game of Thrones like, just, I mean, really. And admitted to it. So this is not even like, oh, allegedly, he admitted to it. And Cory Booker looked at this motherfucker and said, thumbs up over here on my side. Come to find out, he has a long relationship with the Kushners who have donated. Donated to his first mayoral run, donated to multiple Senate runs to the tune of, of, of tens of thousands of dollars. Refers to him as Charlie. And this is why I say that when people express the reasons why they don't vote, the reasons why they think that both parties ain't shit, it's because they literally are suckling the same fucking billionaire tit, and it always comes back to the money. So for that reason, I am just so fucking disgusted with you, Cory Booker. You are my. Fuck that guy this week.

Andy Levy (68:48)

Yeah, no argument here. I do have to say, though, that Charles Kushner, in his confirmation hearing, he said, I don't sit before you here today and tell you I'm a perfect person. I'm not a perfect person. I'm not a perfect person.

Danielle Moody (69:07)

You're welcome back.

Andy Levy (69:08)

Charles Kushner hired a sex worker to seduce his sister's husband and videotape it so he could blackmail his own sister. There's a lot of room between not being a perfect person and hiring a sex worker to seduce your sister's husband and film it so you can blackmail your sister, like, to wave that away by saying, hey, you know, I'm not a perfect person. Po Bobby's nerficed. Am I right? I mean, it's just like, the lack of shame of all of these people is just. Just absolutely wild to me. And, yeah, obviously, the fact that Cory Booker thought to himself, well, this is a guy who helped me out a bunch of years ago, so I'm doing the right thing by voting for him. No, you're not. And, yeah, fuck that guy.

Danielle Moody (70:03)

So, Andy, who are you ushering into our marble hall of fuck that guy fame to close out our third anniversary week?

Andy Levy (70:16)

I am going to go with our Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, Kristi Noem, who thinks that immigration and that deporting people without due process is a reality TV show. And in this case, she was at a Senate hearing earlier this week and was asked about habeas corpus. And she said, habeas corpus is a constitutional right that the president has to be able to remove people from this country. Now, you don't have to speak Latin to know what the literal translation of habeas corpus is, to understand that in the legal realm, habeas corpus is. It basically means produce the body. You have to produce evidence. You can't just do things to people without producing evidence, you know, and that's what due process is. Due process is if the federal government says that you are a terrorist or a criminal and you need to be deported, they have to prove that you are a terrorist or a criminal before they can deport you. And this is obviously being blatantly ignored by this administration. And here we have the head of Homeland Security not only not knowing what habeas corpus means, but where does she come up with that? It means that the President has to be able to remove people from this country. Like, that's not. That's not even close. Like, that's not. I'll give you a C, you tried. Or I'll give you a D. At least that. That's a straight up. That's an F. I mean, you failed. Like, you didn't do the reading. Like, that's the kind of answer.

Danielle Moody (72:12)

She did not do the reading. No, she didn't do the reading.

Andy Levy (72:16)

I don't know if she got her information from some broke ass AI, but. Because that does sound like the kind of thing that OpenAI or any one of those stupid things would give you. But, you know, shout out to Senator Maggie Hassan from New Hampshire, who actually interrupted Noem and said, excuse me, that's incorrect, which is the understatement of the year. But she went on to explain what I just said. You have to give a reason for detaining people, for deporting people, for putting people in prison. And as Senator Hassan said, if not for that protection, the government could simply arrest people, including American citizens, and hold them indefinitely for no reason, which is what this particular administration wants to do. Yeah, a hearty shout out to Kristi Noem as my. Fuck that guy to end this week, because, my God, at least give me a C effort, you know, Give me a gentle woman's C. Don't just get.

Danielle Moody (73:17)

Up there and fail at this point. Just lie to us and make us believe that you've read the Constitution at least once. Make us believe that you at least have seen the Sparks version or the, the fucking Cliff Notes version, you know, like anything. The other day, I thought to myself, you know, if Kristi Noem or Kash Patel or frankly, any member of the Trump administration were given the citizens test, right? The test that citizens have to take in order to become citizens in this country. I mean, they would fail. And so what I, What I. What I would. What I want is like, the next time that that poor excuse for a human being is on Capitol Hill at a committee hearing, which I'm sure will be soon, I want the Democrats who are on that committee to one by one, ask questions from the citizenship test.

Andy Levy (74:15)

That's a great idea.

Danielle Moody (74:16)

To see if she would actually. And be like. And so with each one, and she's like, do you know the answer to this? Do you know that? But you're in charge of deporting people from this country and you don't know a fucking thing about it. So I would love to see that. Here's that's a free idea, Democrats. Free idea. Okay, the next one I'll charge you for. Maybe you'll send me a plane. Fuck that guy.

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