← Ascend - The Great Books Podcast
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- [00:00]
Thomas Lackey
Today on Ascend the Great Books podcast, we are discussing part two of the Libation Bearers. The.
- [00:08]
Adam Minihan
The second part of the second part.
- [00:10]
Thomas Lackey
Very good. The second part of the second play in the Oresteia. So we're going to discuss some really deep parallels in this text to the Odyssey. We're also going to discuss how Orestes can fulfill the command to avenge his father while also not incurring the curse of his mother. And so we'll look at the tensions that I think Aeschylus bakes into this play and then prepare ourselves for how he answers these questions in the Eumenides. So join us for a good conversation on the Libation Bearers.
- [00:59]
Adam Minihan
Welcome to Ascend the Great Books podcast. I'm Adam Minihan here with Deacon Garlick. We have our good friend Thomas Lackey with us. Again, this is the second part of Libation Spares. You can go check out the first part. Last week, and we are going to go finish up this play. Possibly this week. We may have. This may be the second part of the seventh part. I don't know. We'll see how it goes. We had an hour and 45. Like, here's what happened last week. Last week they were like, yeah, this will be pretty fast. I don't know. There's not a whole lot there. And like an hour and 10 minutes in, we're only online, like 200, and we had to get through 6, 70 or something like that, this. And so I'm like, okay, so we'll finish up a, a the first part at an hour and 45 minutes. And I'm like, guys, next week we gotta get it together. I have things to do in the morning. We cannot be, like, two hours into this conversation, you're like, oh, no, we'll be fine. This is gonna be easy. We'll see. I don't know. I have my doubts, but we'll see how it goes. Thomas, great to have you on the podcast. Deacon Garlic, welcome to your own podcast. How did I do that time? The first take that I did. This is the second take that I did of this intro. The first take I did, as I was in. In the process of doing it, I wasn't even looking at Thomas or Deacon Garlic. And I look up and see them and they're both laughing at me. So I realized that I must have said something wrong. I guess I got my. My words tied up and messed up. Great to have you both here.
- [02:32]
Thomas Lackey
We're very happy that you're here too, Adam. Just so you know, this is my.
- [02:36]
Adam Minihan
Thing I, I, I, I do the intro and the outro and maybe throw a little color commentary in there. And that's like, this is my role in the podcast. I get it. I understand. So when I mess up, it is pretty funny because like I have, it's.
- [02:48]
Deacon Garlick
Like, get, dude, you got it down to perfection together is why. And then when, you know, it just makes it that much funnier if something goes off the rails.
- [02:59]
Adam Minihan
Yeah, well, I mean, this is. You guys knew what you're signing up for having me on the podcast.
- [03:04]
Thomas Lackey
So did we.
- [03:07]
Adam Minihan
Well, if you didn't, it's not like that. I don't have enough videos out there of myself being tongue tied. Um, it's very easy to go find videos of Adam Minahan saying things silly.
- [03:20]
Thomas Lackey
So, okay, you bring a element of levity to the podcast that I greatly appreciate that I do not think that I bring. Naturally. So, all right, so we're going to get into. So Adam says we can't spend two hours on the second part of the Libation Bears, so we probably need to jump into the text. So last week we covered the first half, roughly speaking, a little bit more than half. Basically, we covered all the way up until to when Orestes comes to the house. So that's when we're kicking off this week. So Orestes has come to the house. He is enacting his plan to be the Blood Avenger, to be the agent of vengeance upon his own mother and her lover Aegistus for the murder of Orestes father Agabilmo. And so we're going to see a tension that we flagged last week play out. You know, overall, the Libation Bears, I found it to be a very straightforward text and very much an extension of Agamemnon the play, both in its narrative and in its themes. I don't think it pulls a lot of 180s, except maybe the end. Not a 180. But at the very end you kind of get like, okay, so this is where the narrative's going. Because I'll be honest with you, the first time I read the Oresteia, after reading the first two plays, my question was like, wait, what happens in the third? Because the first two plays track pretty closely. There's a little bit of difference, but pretty closely with what we get from the Homeric texts, particularly the Odyssey. But the third one is very much Aeschylus own invention as I understand it. And the third one is Eumenides is the one that actually really made me fall in love with the Oresteia overall, that I think this is what really makes it a great text and very much serves as that intellectual bridge between.
- [05:08]
Deacon Garlick
Homer and Plato I have heard in reading no Greek. I can't confirm this, but the, the, the complexity of the Greek actually tracks that as well. Agamemnon is a more complicated poetic Greek and it becomes increasingly straightforward as you go from, from the, from Agamemnon to libation bearers to Eumenides. I, I can't confirm that, but it's what I read.
- [05:33]
Thomas Lackey
This sounds great. That was a great theory. It sounded really good. So as long as I'm going to.
- [05:37]
Adam Minihan
Start doing that with the podcast, like according to the Greek, when I was reading that, it just sounded more poetic. This is, yeah, I'm going to do, I'm going to pull that card a lot.
- [05:46]
Deacon Garlick
It's all hearsay, which probably would not be admitted in the Eumenides.
- [05:50]
Adam Minihan
The difference between me and you, Thomas, is I would say that like, no, this is definitive. Like this is basically ex cathedra.
- [05:58]
Thomas Lackey
We don't have our good friend Dr. Grabowski here who would call us out on our Greek. So Adam, if you would like to just throw out some random Greek theories of your own, feel free to do so. So I will leave that to you. So again, we're going to anchor Tante.
- [06:11]
Adam Minihan
Yeah, see, thank you.
- [06:12]
Thomas Lackey
We're going to anchor ourselves back into the text. So as a reminder, right, Orestes plan here is he's going to show up at the house and the house of Clytemnestra and Aegistus, which is really the house of Atreus, and he's going to present as a stranger. And this is his whole plan is he's going to, he's going to present as a stranger and get access to the house and then he's going to seek his vengeance. And so one of the very first things that I noticed here is one, that Orestes plan to kill his mother and her lover includes violating guest friendship to be welcomed as the guest, and then for the guest to kill his host. I mean, at least in the Homeric period, that is a huge violation, I would assume. And secondly, this doesn't play out exactly like Homer would have Zinnia or that guest friendship play out. And maybe this is where Orestes finds his justification. Because if you look at the porter, right? So when he goes to the house and the porter answers, I don't know, 6, 37 or so, the porter says, all right, hear you. Where do you come from, stranger? Who are you? Well, that, that's a faux pas in the Homeric system, right? You don't ask who they are, you don't ask their name. Odysseus hung out with King Alcinous or whatever his name was for three days before they were asked him what his name was. And so that was one thing. I'm not sure we could parse that out or what. How do we unpack that? But I'm trying to figure out where guest friendship plays in Orestes Plans for Vengeance.
- [07:52]
Deacon Garlick
I want to back up just even one step before that and say Clytemnestra had this elaborately worked out plan for how she was going to revenge herself on Agamemnon. She had to then weave the tapestries and dye them with all the little snails and then weave the cloak that doesn't actually have a head in it. So he gets tangled up in it. She's got this all worked out in fine detail. And Orestes plan is like, okay, guys, wait for this. I'm going to go up, I'm going to knock on the door. And people like, then what happened? It's like, I don't know, I haven't gotten that far. But it's going to be great.
- [08:29]
Adam Minihan
You know, it's a very Adam Minahan type of plan. It's like, I don't know, we'll just kind of. We'll wing it. Like, we'll wing it.
- [08:35]
Deacon Garlick
We're going to wing it now. He wings it pretty well. I mean, in it I think that we've kind of got like an Odysseus thing going on when we get to him actually winging it and he starts weaving all these stories. But his plan thus far, and he actually gives a little bit of his plan. We don't need to back up to it, but he gives a little bit of plan to the chorus and to Elektra. And it really doesn't have this part about I'm going to pretend to be someone else. He kind of fills that in as he goes down below. He just says, I'm going to go up and knock on the door and they'll let me in. And then I guess I'll kill him or something. And this is the great plan.
- [09:11]
Thomas Lackey
Well, he is a young man, right? I mean, he's a parallel to Telemachus. And I think last time we talked about the fact that in a certain way, I guess killing his mother is his coming of age story, right? Avenging his father being the Blood Avenger is him taking on the mantle of adulthood.
- [09:31]
Deacon Garlick
Well, so I guess There's a staging thing, I guess, probably worth mentioning is that he's probably bang on the skein, right. The large doors of this building that stands at the back. So there's a. Again, great use of that prop. You've got probably very large doors. Of course, the whole echo. Klima would have to be able to be rolled out of it. So this is probably big doors. And he's banging on the doors. But then he says, this is the third time knocking. Who's in there if it does welcome. If this house does welcome strangers. So there's already a sense, again, that there's something really wrong with the way this household is being run.
- [10:06]
Thomas Lackey
Yeah. Because he has to knock the three times.
- [10:08]
Deacon Garlick
And then when the doorman finally says, all right, I hear you, he goes on and asks them to bring him in. He says, have someone with authority come out. The lady in charge. But a man is more seemly. He's starting to kind of poke at them already.
- [10:24]
Thomas Lackey
Does Eclipto Nestor play off this as well? So she says. She opens hers up. Strangers, please tell me what you would like and it's yours. But then down towards the end of that 655, she says, you know, but if you want higher things, right, the affairs of state, that is of men's concern, and I will spur them on. Typically a statement I wouldn't flag, except the fact that, like Clytemnestra has played the role of the man. Right. Throughout the first. You know, throughout. Throughout Agamemnon. And so I. I do think. I want to throw out a theory here that she will revert to the feminine when it's advantageous for her. So she takes on the mantle of the masculine when she needs to take over the house, et cetera. But then when it's advantageous to try and be feminine, she reverts back to that.
- [11:16]
Deacon Garlick
Yes. I think she plays both. Plays off her femininity when it suits her. Now, that said, I do have to. We cannot go on without noting that the first thing she offers him is a hot bath, which in context is just hilarious.
- [11:32]
Thomas Lackey
I think we could probably. Right here, there's going to be many of these. But I think we also could paint our first strong parallel to the Odyssey. So once again, right, you remember Odysseus comes home and he is under the disguise of a beggar, and he tests then his home before then seeking revenge on the suitors. And we have a strong parallel here to Orestes, which obviously this narrative happens before that, but now that we're Reading it with Aeschylus 300 years after Homer. Right. There's really strong parallels here how he presents this with, with what happened with, with. Excuse me, with Odysseus to be.
- [12:15]
Deacon Garlick
Well, I think.
- [12:17]
Thomas Lackey
Go ahead.
- [12:18]
Deacon Garlick
I would say. Yeah. The parallel, he. As he presents himself again as the stranger. And I think the idea of the test is important. I. I think he feels that he. I mean, he. He feels he's on a commission here. Right. So he, he has this commission from the. From Apollo. But I also think there's a sense in which he's trying to test and feel his mother out.
- [12:36]
Thomas Lackey
And you see that mainly in the fact that. Because it. Does it really add anything, like, what's the purpose of the fact that he tells them that Orestes is dead? So Orestes tells his mother that Orestes is dead. That does not seem necessary to the plot to actually kill Clytemnestra and Aegistus. I find this somewhat comparable to Clytemnestra in the tapestries Agamemnon walked on. Ultimately, they are not necessary. Right. For her plan to murder her husband. But there's a reason that she wants to do that. So what is the reason that. That Orestes tells them that he's dead?
- [13:15]
Deacon Garlick
My best reading, at least. Well, I'm going to give two related readings. One is that I do think Aeschylus is using this to make a dramatic comparison to the Odyssey. And the more he fleshes out this story, the kind of Odysseus, like, weaving of the tale that I am a stranger from this place and I met this guy on the road and he told me this story, very much drawing up the Odysseus parallels. I think there's a dramatic purpose to that. But I think on the other hand, on the more direct I do, I think Orestes wants to see how his mother is affected by this news. Whether as a test, out of curiosity. I mean. Yeah, because he's mother in a long time, huh?
- [14:00]
Thomas Lackey
Yeah.
- [14:00]
Adam Minihan
And if, you know, obviously you got to figure out, like, is she like, once she finds out this news, is she actually truly sorry for it or, like, sad about it?
- [14:10]
Deacon Garlick
Right. Because, like, it's a question because, like, if.
- [14:14]
Adam Minihan
If she isn't, like, is she really truly sorry like that, or like, sad about him dying, or does she think that she actually escaped from her doom of, like, actually dying, you know, being, you know, being killed at the end? Like, so, like, I don't know. Like, this is. When I was reading it, I was like, I was. I'm not sure. Is he trying to just test the waters to see what everybody else is doing? Because, like, whenever he tells his mom, client Esther, like, she, like, is she sad that her son is dead? Or she, like, almost like, oh, I'm actually kind of happy because I know I'm not gonna die.
- [14:50]
Deacon Garlick
I think she's an immensely complicated figure. And my guess is, I mean, you also think about him being sent away. She sent him away. And I think you can. I think both of these things are true. She sent him away because she was afraid of him, knowing that he would grow up and would have this duty as avenger. I think she also sent him away because she was afraid for him because he would be in danger from Aegisthus. And I think that kind of tension plays throughout this whole interaction. I think she's glad he's dead, and I think she's sorry he's dead because she is his mother and she cares for him and she is also afraid of him.
- [15:26]
Thomas Lackey
But I do very much like the parallels here between what Orestes is doing here and Odysseus as the beggar coming in and testing people. Right. And spinning them narratives and seeing where they stand with things. So let's look at the. Let's kind of push forward to the next section, which is the nurse. Speaking of another strong Odyssey parallel. So here it shifts to a dialogue between the leader and the chorus. And we're also then introduced to the nurse. And this is Orestes, nurse. So again, we should keep in mind that Odysseus's nurse Eurycleia in the Odyssey was one of the very first people to come to recognize him via his scar. And so now we kind of get. I mean, it just seems that Aeschylus is tracking this very closely and very intentionally. I'm not sure why, because Homer doesn't give this me details. So it's not like he's borrowing from Homer on the story of Orestes particularly. But Escalus very much wants to parallel the story of Odysseus here.
- [16:33]
Deacon Garlick
But I think we see her visibly in tears. And Aeschylus is setting up two aspects. One, we already see a contrast between the overpowering emotion that the news of his death has had on the nurse versus the, no matter how you read it, at least the controlled emotion on his. Of his mother. So she may be genuinely sorry, but she's still very much in control. The second is we. He's setting up, I think, for what we see a bit later when she appeals as his mother that, you know, I'm the one who nursed you and raised you and, you know, held you as a baby. We start to wonder, is, Is that really true? Maybe the one that did most of the nursing and the holding and the comforting at night and all the rest of it was actually Calissa.
- [17:30]
Adam Minihan
But she appeals to that. I mean, over and over and over. I mean, she beats that with the dead. She beats that, like, to the nth degree. It was just like, man, over and over again. She, she brings that up.
- [17:42]
Deacon Garlick
Oh, I agree. And I, I, I think, I think Aeschylus is introducing in, in, you know, the brilliant way that these dramatists can do. He doesn't tell us that's not true. He gives us enough information that we start to wonder if it's not true.
- [17:56]
Thomas Lackey
Mm. Yeah. There were two. I like that parallel a lot. There were two things I noticed in the nurse's kind of opening monologue here. One, I really liked this poetic picture that women are prophets of infants. Did you guys see this? This is at line 745 in Fagels, right? That basically the, the women are like how a prophet can interpret the bird signs. So women interpret the needs of the infant, Right. So they're the seers of children. I don't know. I thought it was a really interesting poetic snapshot.
- [18:35]
Deacon Garlick
I know I said that entirely.
- [18:37]
Thomas Lackey
I really, I don't know, I thought it was kind of a beautiful picture of the femininity in relationship to infants and children. I had never heard that kind of metaphor before, so I very much liked it. I thought it captured my attention. And then around 7:50, she says, you know, so I nursed Orestes, yes, From his father's arms. I took him once, and now they say he's dead. I've suffered it all. And now I'll fetch that man the ruination of the house, give him the news, he'll relish every word.
- [19:09]
Adam Minihan
She's suffered at all. Like, you know, her son's dead, her husband's dead now, mind you. I mean, she killed her husband, but, I mean, like, she's just suffering at all.
- [19:18]
Deacon Garlick
Well, I think he's also saying that Aegisthus is going to be thrilled. Right, right.
- [19:22]
Thomas Lackey
But also, as a clarification, this is the nurse speaking, right? Yeah, so this is the nurse speaking. It reminded me a little bit of the story of Phoenix in the Odyssey, if you remember, like, when he's appealing, they go on the emissary to Achilles, and Phoenix helped raise Achilles. And he's trying to say, like, I did all these things for You. And now I need you to do something for me, like do this. I found, I actually wrote Phoenix in my notes here because I found to be somewhat of a parallel like she had done. The nurse had done all these things for Orestes and then she needs Orestes to come back and repay her to reorder the home and he's dead and now like SHIELD Never gets that repayment. So I actually found her story in Phoenix's to have a certain parallel.
- [20:10]
Deacon Garlick
You know, I think a couple of things also to bring out of the nurse is she doesn't believe Clytemnestra. So we're talking about whether or not we believe them or not, that she's saying that talking of Clytemnestra, she made a melancholy face to the servants, but she was hiding her inner laughter. Now I think there's enough there to doubt whether or not the nurse is bitter and reading more into Clytemnestra than is there. Right. Maybe. I, I, I personally actually think Clytemnestra is conflicted. Right. I think she's probably feeling both. Um, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the nurse who is, is spot on here and Clytemnestra is just knows the right words to say, but I think she's just a, she's just a very interesting character. And I do think it's Clytemnestra's, at least in this position that she picked of all the people in the household, the nurse specifically, to go and talk to the stranger and to summon Aegisthus to so that he can talk to the stranger man to man. I think there's this idea where she, she very, she's very aware of the gender roles and she feels like she's gotten as much out of this stranger as she's going to get, but she's not satisfied with the story in some way. I don't know that she thinks it's Orestes. I don't think she does. But I think she's, she wants to know more and she's like, well, I guess this will be able to get it out of. So I guess her plotting ability as I think being put on, on display here, she's, she's very much in control and she's thinking everything through. And when she doesn't, when she's not satisfied, she works out a plan on the spot to work things around to what she thinks is going to be her advantage. Although we know that it's actually not.
- [22:01]
Thomas Lackey
I like that, I like that read. How's it world the dialogue between the nurse and the leader, it reminded me of the leader in the Herald. If you remember that from Agamemon, where you can tell the leader was like trying to tell the herald something. So here we have the leader trying to tell the nurse something, right? So the nurse at like 7:66 is like, but how? Orestes, the hope of the house is gone. The leader not yet. It's a poor seer who'd say so, right? So he's like, there's this play. Well, actually, I think it's a female, right? They're playing back and forth and I just enjoyed it. I enjoyed the narrative that they give. If you go on into the chorus that starts on a little bit like 774. The one thing that I thought was interesting is, if I read this correctly, is that it describes Orestes as an orphan, right? That like somehow he just simply doesn't have a mother anymore. This is at 786 now. The orphan needs you. I took that as be. I took that to be discussing Orestes. And so I thought it was interesting that they simply refer to him as an orphan.
- [23:11]
Deacon Garlick
Yeah, the orphan young cult of the man you held dear. That is interesting. I'd miss that.
- [23:16]
Thomas Lackey
The other reference that comes into the chorus, which we probably need to parse out is that we start getting references to Perseus. And so this is at a little bit before 8:20. Raise up heart of Perseus in your breast and for all you love under the earth and all above its rim now scarf your eyes against the Gorgon's fury in Go for the slaughter now. So it's. I mean, there's a lot of things that parse out here. So Perseus, right, is the. The kind of like pre. Iliad, mythological hero who kills Medusa, which is one of the Gorgons, right? So there's. There's a kind of like the band of heroes that were pre Iliad, right? You had Perseus, you had Theseus, you had Jason's in there. Eric leaves in there, right? These heroes that go off and do these great things. Bellerophon would be in there, right? Writing Pegasus and killing the Chimera would be another one. And so. But Perseus here, I think is mentioned very explicitly for multiple reasons. So one would be. Is that Perseus kills a female monster. I. I think that. I think there's a play here. So Perseus kills Medusa, which is a female monster. The other thing too, if I understood this correctly, correct. So push Back if I'm wrong. But the Furies are also then presented as being very Gorgon esque. Um, and I think at one point even talks about them having serpents for hair and things like that. So they're also female. Um, so anyway, there's Aeschylus, I think is bringing in the story of Perseus because it has certain parallel imagery in it.
- [25:01]
Deacon Garlick
I think there's also in this course something that again hints at some different kind of justice that's being hoped for because around line in mine 803, when they're invoking Zeus, still they're asking for it to expiate the blood of those deeds long ago with fresh justice. I wish the old murder breeds no more in the house. There's an idea, I think, where, you know, where even looking back all the way to Atreus, I think reading in these lines those old deeds and I don't think this means the murder of Agamemnon alone. I think this is harkening back all the way to the curse of Atreus and looking to finally bring this all to an end.
- [25:47]
Thomas Lackey
Well, let's push forward to the appearance of Aegistus. So this is 8:24. I mean, he comments on the death of Orestes here and then talks about, I mean, the leader. Right. Is this is almost comedic how it's playing out because the leader is aware that Orestes is alive and in the house, et cetera. And so the leader's like, there's nothing like a face to face encounter with the source. Right. Why don't you go talk to the man? Right. This is kind of funny because I don't take a justice to be a very clever character for Aeschylus. I think we've already talked about this, but like Homer, in my opinion, Homer very much emphasizes that it was Aegistus that killed Agamemnon and basically was the person who, you know, usurped the throne. Aeschylus very much presents Clytemnestra as the mastermind. And so, you know, Aegistus here tends to, I don't know, I find him just to be kind of a dunce, a little tag along to a certain degree. And so now he's going to, you know, go and see the source face to face and being played by the leader. So we see in the next section there, the chorus. So we get another chorus. You know, it talks about a sun ignites the torch of freedom, wins the throne, the citadel, the father's realms of gold. And then we get a scream inside the palace and this would have been. Thomas, like your points that you've helped us understand. So this would have been. What's it called? The Skane.
- [27:21]
Deacon Garlick
Yeah, the Ska. Nae.
- [27:22]
Thomas Lackey
So this, like, large shed that basically the actors could go in and change masks and roles and et cetera. So the screen would have come out of Skaenae. Right. Because a Skane in this play is basically the House of Atreus, right? It's the actual home. And so the scream comes out. And so, um, it's interesting. The leaders, like, back till the work is over. Stand back. They'll count us clean of dreadful business. Who is us? Well, hold on. That's not right. Who's they'll like? Who's the they. They count as clean of dreadful business. Who is the leader worried about there?
- [28:01]
Deacon Garlick
That's a very interesting question.
- [28:02]
Thomas Lackey
My. My best guess there is that it's the Furies. That they. That they understand that this is. That they understand that the blood cycle is going to continue and that Orestes, you know, killing his, you know, mother and. And his, you know, his family member, Justus, is going to be a negative. It's going to. It's going to continue the blood cycle. And so the way I read that is that it's the Furies, because it's not going to be. It's not going to be a justice. It's not going to be Clytemnestra. I don't think it's going to be their house. I don't think it's going to be the men like the chorus from the first one. I don't. They're not going to be sad, like, who's going to care? So the only person I could think of is that it's the Furies, that they understand what's happening here is going to invoke the Furies.
- [28:48]
Deacon Garlick
You know, I also think. I don't know, there might be subtle differences in translation here. That would be important. But there's a line here where the chorus after the cry says, let us stand aside from the business as it reaches fulfillment so as to seem innocent of these troubles. So I like the. The idea that they only want to seem innocent of the trouble. Right? Not to be innocent. They just kind of want to. They want to let it happen, but somehow not re. Rebound back to them.
- [29:21]
Thomas Lackey
They're very much pro Orestes here. Right? I mean, it's very clear what they. What they want. The other thing that made me laugh is the. So if you push forward the narrative a little bit, when Clytemnestra comes out and she says, what now? Why this shouting up and down the halls? I just love, like, Greek plays. Because, like, clearly if someone's getting murdered, like, in real life, someone's just gonna scream, be like, you know, they're murdering him, right? But then, like, she gets this, like, really poetic answer of, the dead are cutting down the quick. I tell you, right? Which is like a wonderful, It's a wonderful line, right? The dead, Orestes, right? The dead are cutting down the quick. The guy that we thought was dead is here killing everybody. So it says I, I found it to be. It's funny because it's, it's, it's somewhat comedic because it's, it's a riddle in the middle of a panic that no one would actually do. But Clytemnestra actually comments on this. She says, oh, a riddle. I do well at riddles. By cunning, we die precisely as we killed. I, I, she nails this. I mean, she's an intelligent woman. She immediately knows exactly what's happening. And just like we talked about the eye for the eye, you know, this is basically a resty statement earlier that they, they killed by cunning, and so I will kill them by cutting. I mean, she just picks up on this like that. And then I don't know if they're, they're probably supposed to be juxtaposed. But the next line is also hilarious, right? Hand me the man ax, someone. Hurry.
- [30:51]
Deacon Garlick
Yeah, I love this because it reminds me we need to make our requisite Old Testament references. And I. This is like the sword that David killed Goliath with that they save in the temple, right? It's not just any old sword. It's the sword that we keep as this trophy of our great victory. And she's kept her. The ax that she killed Agamemnon with all these years, right? And she's saying, bring me, you know, as it were, like, bring me back my trusty axe that I kill people with. It's, it's a bold move that.
- [31:27]
Thomas Lackey
So you took this to be the actual. Like I did. I did. I don't. Not that I read it contrary to that, but I just read it as another gender bend here, right? That she's, she's now playing. We're going to see her flip flop real fast, right? But right now she's in danger and her first reaction is to play the masculine.
- [31:48]
Deacon Garlick
I totally see this as her getting back her trophy, her trusty axe, and she's gonna, you know, rely on it again.
- [31:56]
Thomas Lackey
That's funny.
- [31:56]
Deacon Garlick
Hope it Sees her through. Which by the way, David does as well when he flees. He has to go. He doesn't even have a sword with him. He has to go and take it from the temple.
- [32:08]
Thomas Lackey
The one thing I, you know, because Adam said we.
- [32:12]
Deacon Garlick
But anyway, here, go on.
- [32:14]
Thomas Lackey
Adam said we had to finish this podcast quickly. So I'm going to tell you my random theories about King David. So one thing about King David and his depictions that I wish someone would get correct is that he does use Goliath sword. Goliath's sword would have been gigantic and like David would have been running around like a Final Fantasy character in like the Old Testament, like with his gigantic sword, ridiculous sword. Well, it shows, right? Like they always show David and he has like a normal sized sword. It's like, no, he used Goliath's sword as his sword. He has this atomically large sword for him. He's like just wielding around, you know, killing Philistines with. And I wish someone would give a better depiction of how this actually looked because the Bible actually talks about David in like, he has like fiery red hair and a red beard with a giant sword. I mean, this man is a very unique looking character in the Old Testament.
- [33:14]
Deacon Garlick
Well, and I mean, for, for anyone that is listening, I own the. The only extent to which I was making this analogy was this sense in which you have this kind of, this thing that was in some sense the symbol of your victory that you, you invested in it. Something that, that, that, I mean, obviously in the case of the sword that, that David cuts off Goliath's head with Goliath swords originally, but that he claims through this victory, it becomes emblematic of his I, I of the moment at which he became the David that we think of now properly, maybe that should be invested in his anointing, but in a very practical sense, it's in this victory. And I think there's something to that with, with at least in my reading of a Clytemnestra that saved the axe all these years. Right. Is, is that she sees this as the symbol of her victory.
- [34:15]
Thomas Lackey
That's interesting. I did not, I did not unpack all of that. In that sense. It says that she killed him with an ax.
- [34:22]
Deacon Garlick
It certainly did in my translation. Yeah. In the Agamemnon, no Greek actually does.
- [34:29]
Adam Minihan
It's actually a hatchet, it's not actually an axe, but I'll let that slide.
- [34:35]
Thomas Lackey
Thank you, Greek scholar. We appreciate that. So. But the funny thing, right, about her grabbing the man ax is that this shifts real quick. So she grabs the ax and then basically the doors open, a resty sword in hand, stands over the body of the justice. And Phyto Nestra shifts really quick because down just a few lines later, at 8:83 or so, she says, wait, my son. No respect for this, my child. The breast that you held drowsy away the hour soft gums tugging, milk that made you grow. So she has pivoted back to the feminine. So she grabs the man ax. She's going to play the masculine power character. Oresti comes busting through the door with his axe, with Aegistus dead at his feet, and she immediately reverts back to the feminine.
- [35:28]
Deacon Garlick
I think there's one important point we have to also say is that I think her affection for Aegistis was real, right? She's alas, my dearest, mighty Aegistis. Right? But I think she. She sees him dead there and I think it does shake her.
- [35:40]
Thomas Lackey
What? How? What is yours? Read on that line again.
- [35:44]
Deacon Garlick
Alas, you are dead, my dearest mighty Aegisthus. And then Orestes turns to her and says, you love the man, then you shall lie in the same tomb.
- [35:52]
Thomas Lackey
Yeah, yeah. Fagos translates it. Gone, my violent one. A justice very dear.
- [36:01]
Deacon Garlick
So mighty for mine, violent for yours. Interesting. I mean, I can see how the two could be related. If Dr. Frank were here, he'd probably be like, that's hubris, you know, and if. If it turns out to be hubris, that's going to be awesome, by the way.
- [36:19]
Thomas Lackey
That's good.
- [36:20]
Deacon Garlick
But I. So Clyde and Nestor doing this. We have to think of the Iliad, right, Where.
- [36:28]
Thomas Lackey
Well, we think this is. This is. What's her name? Hecuba.
- [36:32]
Deacon Garlick
Yeah, right.
- [36:33]
Thomas Lackey
Hecuba. Hecuba, however you emphasize it, right? So this is Hector's mother does this, right? She pulls out her breast, I believe, when she wants Hector to either stay in the city or re. Enter it. I can't remember which narrative it is, but one of the times that she's trying to get him to do something, she makes this exact same appeal. Yeah.
- [36:56]
Deacon Garlick
And there's a kind of darker version of this at the end of Oedipus for the king, right? Because when he takes her brooch and it there undoes her gown, the brooch that he stabs his eyes out. There's. There's this. There's a call back to this apparently Greek idiom of women saying, you know, of mothers making this reference, you know, whether or not they really, you know, drew out the. The.
- [37:30]
Thomas Lackey
The.
- [37:30]
Deacon Garlick
Their breast or whether or not it's just sort of like a gesture of some sort. Remember I nursed you. And sort of. I mean, obviously we've got male actors here, right? So there's, there's, it's, it has to be not, not quite literal, but the, the, the that this, this is a common Greek thing in, in tragedy for sure. Uh, it doesn't seem to, to fly well here though.
- [37:55]
Thomas Lackey
Another thing too we should probably keep in mind here is the viper dream, right, that she had of the snake. This is where we're seeing this part two come to fruition, right? She gave birth to a snake and the snake comes back and bites her. But Orestes, it's interesting though because in this moment, Orestes, I mean, how did you read this? Like, Orestes starts to have doubts. He starts to hesitate, right? Because this is where his friend. This is where his friend, you know, finally has to speak. His friend that's been with him the whole time finally has to speak. And he, he gives interesting advice. This is a little after 885, because Orestes is like, do I, I dread to kill my mother. And he says, what of the future? What of the prophet God, Apollo? The delphic voice? The last line there is the most dispositive, I think. Make all mankind your enemies, not the gods.
- [38:52]
Deacon Garlick
Yeah, I mean, this is an absolutely beautiful line. And I mean the, it's the only line Pilates has. But also, I think we have to think like staging wise. Remember, normally only two speaking actors on the stage. Rarely just every now and again you get three. And we had that with Cassandra, who'd been silent on stage for a long time. And I guess probably, technically there are only two because Agamemnon just walks off stage at that moment when Cassandra speaks. But the audience is probably seeing her as a non speaking character. Well, Pilades has been on stage a whole long time at this point and not uttered a word again. He's probably just considered like as a silent character. And then all of a sudden he comes out with this one line and it's absolutely crucial. This is the guy, like the guy in the symphony that plays the triangle. And he's just like waiting for that one moment, right?
- [39:52]
Adam Minihan
He plays the cowbell.
- [39:53]
Deacon Garlick
Yeah.
- [39:54]
Adam Minihan
I mean, Aresti's like, this is just a very human. Like it's one thing to, to like know, like, okay, this is what I gotta do. It's another thing to like, now that the moment has come, do I really have the gumption to do it? Do I really have like the, like, the thumos or whatever, Dumas. To be able to actually carry this out and fully. Like, what. How did you pronounce his name? Thomas? You said Pilates.
- [40:23]
Deacon Garlick
I said Pylades, but I could be wrong.
- [40:27]
Adam Minihan
Anyway, whatever. I don't know what the Greek translation is there. I didn't look that up. So I apologize ahead of time for all of our listeners. But, like, he. He kind of, like, he kind of reinforces it. And then Oresti's, you know, like, I just really liked his. His response. It's like, you win me over. Good advice. We're gonna move on. You know, it's like it. It was. To me, it was just. That was a very human response. It's like, yep, okay, you're right. Let's go. Let's move on into the breach, so to speak.
- [40:58]
Thomas Lackey
Right.
- [41:01]
Deacon Garlick
Well, we say he's his one friend. He said this at the beginning. My one friend of the earth, in the world. And he's been the friend who's accompanied him on this journey. And, you know, in his moment of indecision here, he's like, you know, pilates. What am I supposed to do? He's like, well, trust. Trust in the gods, basically. They sent you here?
- [41:20]
Thomas Lackey
Yeah, I mean, friendship, right? And fraternity.
- [41:25]
Adam Minihan
Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I mean, like, the friend says, like, make all mankind your enemy, but not the gods. I mean, isn't that like the Christian ideas, too? Like, what is it to profit the world if you lose your soul? Like, uh, you know, to me, I thought that was really good advice.
- [41:43]
Thomas Lackey
It's interesting, too, because there's a dilemma, right? Because it's. It's funny, though, because I. I mean, maybe the pushback on this a little bit. I. I'm not really sure. Like, is that really the advice that he needs right now? Because it. Is it really humanity that he's worried about? Because he says, make all mankind your enemy, not the gods. I mean, what he's worried about here is violating filial piety towards his mother. And sure, you could read that as, like, what will men say of you? Right? Will you be an outcast? But the real problem is not men. The real problem are the immortals. They're the primordial gods of the Furies that are going to come after him. So I found it to be also an interesting line of, make all mankind your enemy, not the gods. Because. Yeah, that's true. That works really well. If you say, I don't want to do this, it'll be, you know, seen poorly by men. But. Yes, but Apollo says, do it. Okay, great. But that's actually not the problem. The problem is that the immortals are going to see this as incorrect, and there's going to be a clash between the primordial immortals and the Olympian gods on this. So, no, I found it to be. I found it. It's a wonderful line. It reads very epically, but I, I, I. As I parsed it out, I had some questions about how it actually played out, because, you know, he, he follows it. It's a very quick turnaround for him. But then Clytemnestra picks up on this pretty quick, and she shifts. So she shifts from the whole, I'm going to pull my breast out maneuver to mother's curse, Right. So she flips to the other side, and this is down a little bit for 900. She says, you have no fear of mother's curse, my son.
- [43:19]
Deacon Garlick
Well, also.
- [43:21]
Thomas Lackey
Go ahead.
- [43:21]
Deacon Garlick
Also. Well, let's not skip. What he says is when she says, I want you with me as I grow old. And then he replies, what will you share my house when you are my father's killer? My house. So I do think there's a question as to. When you're talking about guest friendship. Whose house is it?
- [43:40]
Thomas Lackey
Well, that's a good, that's a good point. So that would only be a further parallel to. That would be only a further parallel to the Odyssey. Right.
- [43:49]
Deacon Garlick
Yeah. And then she goes on to say that fate had some responsibility for that. There's an interesting thing there. And, and it's hard to tell, since it's the beginning of the sentence. Is she meaning fate and as a God, or fate in a generic sense? But there's an idea there as well, where she. There's a kind of a dissociation of the responsibility for what she's done. This isn't something that she did. Fate just dealt its hand.
- [44:11]
Thomas Lackey
Yeah. Because she, she then pivots into the curse. And I think the main tension that I saw in this was a little bit before 9, 10, where she says, I see murder in your eyes, my child. Mother's murderer. You are the murderer, not I. Oreste responds, and you will kill yourself, which is worthy of contemplation there. And she responds, watch out. The hounds of the mother's curse will hunt you down. And he responds, but how to escape a father's if I fail? And so I found this to be the most distilled. Maybe not the most, but this is a very distilled passage about the actual tension in the Oresteia. Right. That he. To escape his father's curse. This is what Apollo told him, right? If you do not avenge the blood of your father, plague and exile upon you. Okay, great. So now he goes to kill his mother. And his mother's like, by the way, if you kill me, the curse will be upon you. And so this is the tension, right? How do I avenge my father without violating filial piety against my mother? And I think, too maybe to go back to that line, 9, 10. I think this is him trying. I think this is him trying to give an answer to it, right? Because he says, what? And you will kill yourself, right? You are the murderer. Not I. The first time I read this, I thought he was gonna. This was something literal, like he was gonna back her off a cliff or something. I'm not sure what was going to happen, but really isn't. Isn't what he's saying here is he's making, I guess, for lack of a better word, a philosophical argument that, like, you have killed yourself by your own actions. Right? I'm simply an agent of fate. I'm simply the sword in the hand of the Furies here. You know, you have killed yourself through being a murderer. I'm not the murderer. You're the murderer.
- [46:16]
Deacon Garlick
Yeah. I mean, I think this is very much of a philosophical statement, right, that you're not. You murdered, and you have brought death on yourself as the just punishment for your crime. I mean, I. I think that's exactly what he's saying, which is a different statement than saying, I'm going to kill you because I'm angry. It's like, no, this is. This is nothing but the reward of the crime that you committed.
- [46:40]
Thomas Lackey
And then we get a reference to the snake, right? So she makes a reference back to her dream. It's a little bit before 9:15, right? You are the snake I bore. I gave you life. So then we move into a chorus that mentions King Priam and things of this nature. Does anyone have any comments on the. On that chorus? All right. Hearing none, because I think that this is quite interesting. So it says, the doors open, torches light, and Orestes, sword in hand, standing over the bodies of Clytemnestra and Aegistis, as Phytumnestra stood over the bodies of Agamemnon and Cassandra. So we have a mirroring here at the end that I think, in a lot of ways, right, that justice has been served. But I think as a reminder to what Thomas said earlier, which I very much agree with, is, you know, even though he's standing here as they did. I find his actions much more just mainly because one the gods, Apollo has very much pushed him into this to be the Blood Avenger through the cycle of violence and lex talionis, et cetera. But also that his murders were justified, right? They're both tethered to the wrong that happened that he has to fix. Whereas Cassandra in her murder, I think was disproportionate and unjustified. So even though they're standing, even though Aeschylus here makes a very clear parallel between the two, I think the way I read this is that if you remember Cassandra, her last like cry out was to remember that she was spirited, to remember who comes to tell them how she died and that the Blood Avenger will avenge her as well.
- [48:35]
Deacon Garlick
Well, I think the chorus hints at the distinction right above this line was. I guess I do have a comment on. It says that he expels all defilement from his hearth with cleansing to expel ruin's destruction. So there's a sense in which the. The very much it's viewed if we're continuing our Odysseus analogies to Odysseus killing of the suitors and then the sort of ritual cleansing of the house with fire and brimstone.
- [49:08]
Thomas Lackey
And do I understand this correctly, that the bodies of Clytemnestra and Aegisthus are also wrapped in the same robes that entangled Agamemnon. So like there's a note here that says. Yeah, it is from the bodies on the bier, the robes to entangled Agamemnon, he displays them as Clytemnestra had displayed them to the chorus on the altar.
- [49:31]
Deacon Garlick
So I say again that she kept all these keepsakes, right, of her crime. She kept the robes. I think there's a mention here of the tapestry as well, but now dyed with blood. Right. So in addition to the. So I mean, so. And now, you know, and of course the robes I could be misremembering about the tapestry, but certainly about the robes that he says made the bonds for his forefather.
- [49:55]
Thomas Lackey
It's interesting why he says a Justus has to die. Did you see this at like 9:80. So he says of Clytemnestra, right, That I pursued the bloody. The bloody death with justice. A mother's death. Aegistus, why mention him? The adulterer dies, an old custom of justice. It's interesting that he presents him there as the vengeance is because he's an adulterer. I mean, Aeschylus really mitigates Aegistus's role in the death of Agamemnon. It's. It's very almost contrary to what we see in the Homeric text. And then you kind of know something's about to go terribly wrong because the chorus that kicks in right after a thousand, it says, oh, the dreadful work. Death calls and she is gone. But, oh, for you, the survivor suffering is just about to bloom, right? The man who acts suffers and Orestes is that man.
- [50:57]
Deacon Garlick
It's an interesting line from the chorus right around just so about 1018 in this translation there's no mortal man who'll pass his life unharmed throughout with no price pay it. It's a little ambiguous as to whom that's referring, but I'm. I think the answer is Orestes, right? That Orestes has been put into this. This kind of bitter trial in which he. He carries a guilt even for doing what seems to be the right thing.
- [51:32]
Thomas Lackey
No, I very much agree because I think the. The choruses are. The choruses start giving us little hints that something is wrong. And then I really feel like the rest of the narrative is just simply a spiral downwards. So like 1025, he says, I killed my mother, not with a little justice. She was stained with the Father's blood. She was cursed by God. And then he's dressed and being somewhat reminiscent of Cassandra, he's actually dressed like Apollo. Orestes is given the branch of an olive tree and invests him in the robes of Apollo in the wreath in insignia of the supplicants of Delphi. But then he starts. I mean, when I say go downhill, things start to go downhill because he looks at his sword and he says, I must escape this blood. It is my own must turn towards the hearth. None but his. The prophet God decreed. Now, early on we had a conversation about Electra being the Blood Avenger and if it wasn't going to be her or Rusty's, who would it be? This is where he mentions Menelaus at 1041. Be my witness to Menelaus when he comes. It's really a short line. That's all he says. But I think if we were talking about who could have been the Blood Avenger without as many complications, it would have been Menelaus. If he comes. I don't. They don't even know if he's alive.
- [53:00]
Deacon Garlick
I think at this point it's interesting that the. The first words after the chorus where it says, you know, sorrow for these unhappy deeds. Orestes sort of response or. Or is. Did she do it or not? Do It. This robe is my witness. But that's an interesting. After all of this, you know, there. There's. There's still this question, I think this question that haunts, you know, even trials, which of course, we'll get to later in Eumenides, which is that the certainty that we have is never sort of the certainty of a God's eye view. There's a. There's always a kind of trepidation in the execution of a sentence. Was he really guilty? And yet we, of course, as. As this whole play leads to, we can't fail to act simply because we might make some mistake, even though obviously making a mistake is a terrible. Brings a terrible judgment of its own.
- [54:03]
Thomas Lackey
Well, I think you're seeing some of that tension in the text, right, because at 10:45, the leader of the chorus speaks back to him and is like, listen, you've done well. Like, you've done a good job, right? Don't burden yourself with bad omens and lash yourself with guilt. You set us free, the whole city of Argos, and lop the heads off these two serpents once for all. And I mean, and then this pivots into Orestes screaming in terror, which is, you know, Aeschylus very much likes these juxtapositions, right? He likes the people screaming, particularly as for kind of dramatic effect. And so he says, no, no, women look like Gorgons, shrouded in black, their heads wreathed, swarming serpents. I cannot stay. I must move on. So here come the primordial female know goddesses, the Furies, right, Whose goal or motivation is. They hunger for the blood of those who have violated these sacred bonds, right? So he has killed his mother, and so now he's going to be haunted by the Mother's curse, right? So he fulfilled his father's oath, so he's not haunted by the father's curse. But now he's hunted by the mothers. It's notable a few things. One, they're female immortals. They are the more primordial gods, older than the Olympian gods, if you will, is how I take this. And also the reference to the Gorgons. They're light Gorgons, so remember the Perseus reference earlier, the leader. Notice the leader still doesn't get it right. Steady. Nothing to fear with all you've won. And Orestes responds, no dreams, these torments, not to me. They're clear, real, the hounds of the Mother's feet. And I think, Thomas, it was you that pointed out 1056 or so that he immediately Appeals to Apollo, right. As his shield. Right. God, Apollo. Here they come thick and fast, their eyes dripping hate.
- [56:11]
Deacon Garlick
Yeah, I think there's a, as a question here. I mean, he seems to have referred to as, well before that he was assured by Apollo that no guilt would be his if he, if he did this. I, I, I think there's still some sense, this tension that he's appealing to Apollo. Basically. Keep up your end of the deal, I think, is the implication, but I don't think it's quite so clear. He seems to have always had at least some dread, both of the violation of the, the natural law to, to maybe backdate that phraseology somewhat and its fulfillment in the Furies. I don't, I think, let me put it, I guess the, I think the Furies have been haunting his mind all along. And I don't think they come as a complete surprise, just simply as a, as a terror.
- [57:01]
Thomas Lackey
Yeah. If you, for those who've been following the podcast, you know that we discussed Hesiod's theogony and his theogony, quite notably, the Furies are produced when Kronos cuts off his father's genitals. And the blood that's actually received by Gaia, one of the things that it produces are the Furies, right? These immortal women who hunt down and avenge those who violate the most primal understandings of justice. They enforce the code lex talionis, blood for blood. And so, I mean, these are these kind of horrific creatures that are going to now hunger for Orestes blood until they have it to kind of right the wrong of what he's done.
- [57:51]
Deacon Garlick
Yeah, and this, the sense of this righting of wrong is, is very much of a, of a almost mechanistic quality, meaning that the Furies don't seem to be interested in who was in the right. They only care that blood was spilled and therefore blood has to be taken.
- [58:09]
Thomas Lackey
But this is, this is the whole problem though, right? Like, are you an avenger or are you a judge? Well, there's no discernment, there's no judging. It's just simply avenging, right? It's just like, well, blood was spilt and so therefore blood must be spilled in return. I mean, this is how he ends the whole thing, right? The libation bearers. The chorus kicks in and he, they kind of give a summary here, right? It says, first the children eat the cause of all our pain, the curse. Okay, so that is, that is Thyestes, right? That's what Orestes. No, not Orestes Atreus did To him, right? So that's like one of the original ones. And next, the kingly man's ordeal, the bath, or the proud commander, the lord of Achaia's armies lost his life. Okay, so that's Clytemnestra killing Agamemnon, and then the third one, a third, like saving Zeus, or should we call him death? Where will it end? Where will it sink to sleep and rest, this murderous hate, this fury? And so I think the way we lead into the Eumenides, the third one is, is that Aeschylus, like we said, this is a. This is a good understanding of justice. An eye for an eye. Lex talionis. Blood for blood is a good understanding, but it has a big problem. There's not an external standard that it appeals to, to understand what is actually just, and that there could be situations in which murdering your own mother is actually correct. And so now there is no judgment, there's no appeal. It's just simply vengeance. And how does the cycle stop? And this is what we see at the end of the Odyssey, you know, right? And there, how it stopped is Athena just said, cut it out, we're done. Zeus wants peace and everyone's done. But that's a power move. That's a deus ex machina. And so I think as we lead into the Eumenides, what we're going to have is a much richer conversation about then, can justice mature, right? Can we. Can we go from good to better and understand? How can we have a better understanding of justice?
- [60:21]
Deacon Garlick
I think there's a hint here in this last bit where he talks about, where will lulling asleep stop the energy of ruin, as my translation puts it, this idea of sleep. I think there's an within justice, a true justice, a perfect justice. There have been, there has to be some notion that peace is restored, right? The. The crime is such that a household or community which had been in peace has now been disrupted by violence and crime. And justice isn't finished until the peace has been restored. And yet none of these actions taken to date seem to have restored the peace. And I think that's where we turn to the Eumenides or something. Is there a better justice? One that leads to peace instead of vengeance?
- [61:14]
Thomas Lackey
Right. No, I agree. I mean, the Eumenides, I think, is a. A wonderful play, and I'm looking forward to kind of parsing it out. And I think it. It really then illuminates the first two because you see more of what Escalus was trying to do as he kind of parsed out this arc of justice. All right, well, any other final comments or questions or anything else before we wrap up the libation bears? No. All right, I think we're good, Adam.
- [61:40]
Adam Minihan
All right, well. Hey, Thomas, thanks so much again. Appreciate it for. I. I was going to give you an opportunity to, like, give a hand your handle for X or something like that, but you're not on social media.
- [61:51]
Deacon Garlick
No, I hide from such things.
- [61:54]
Adam Minihan
A smart man. Okay, well, we appreciate you joining us. And we will get into the third play of Aeschylus's Oresteia next week. We'll see you then.