Ascend - The Great Books Podcast: Episode Summary

Title: Aeschylus' Oresteia: The Eumenides Explained Part One
Host/Authors: Harrison Garlick and Adam Minihan
Guests: Dr. Frank Grabowski and Mr. Thomas Lackey
Release Date: February 18, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of Ascend - The Great Books Podcast, hosts Deacon Harrison Garlick and Adam Minihan delve into the final play of Aeschylus' Oresteia trilogy: The Eumenides. Joined by guests Dr. Frank Grabowski and Mr. Thomas Lackey, the discussion explores the transition from primordial to procedural justice, the evolving role of familial versus civic structures in justice, and the intricate interplay between ancient mythology and philosophical thought.

Overview of The Eumenides

[00:00] Deacon Harrison:
Deacon Harrison introduces the focus of the episode—The Eumenides, the concluding play of the Oresteia trilogy. He outlines the primary themes, including the shift from family-oriented vengeance to a more organized, civic-based judicial system.

[03:04] Deacon Harrison:
He reflects on the trilogy’s narrative arc, noting that while the first two plays, Agamemnon and The Libation Bearers, provide a straightforward story drawn from Homeric tradition, it's The Eumenides that truly captivates by introducing a novel exploration of justice.

Primordial vs. Procedural Justice

[04:39] Deacon Harrison:
The hosts discuss the overarching theme of justice in the trilogy, emphasizing the evolution from lex talionis (law of retaliation) to a more nuanced, procedural form. This transformation mirrors the societal shift from familial retribution to structured legal systems within the polis.

[05:14] Dr. Frank Grabowski:
Dr. Grabowski highlights that the Oresteia trilogy stands out as the only complete trilogy from ancient Greece, allowing Aeschylus to develop his thoughts on justice cohesively across the three plays. Unlike other playwrights, Aeschylus crafts an argument through his characters, offering deeper philosophical insights.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Frank Grabowski: "The Oresteia really does constitute a kind of argument of sorts. We can see Aeschylus develop his thoughts through his characters on justice."
[05:14]

The Role of the Furies

[07:37] Deacon Harrison:
The discussion turns to the Furies, ancient deities of vengeance, exploring their role and representation in The Eumenides.

[10:56] Dr. Frank Grabowski:
He points out that Aeschylus externalizes the internal guilt experienced by Orestes through the personification of the Furies, bridging the gap between internal remorse and external punishment.

[12:00] Mr. Thomas Lackey:
Mr. Lackey elaborates on the Furies' dual representation of internal and external forms of justice, suggesting that their portrayal signifies the incomplete nature of primordial justice.

Notable Quote:
Mr. Thomas Lackey: "There's an internal forum, if you will, of guilt as well as an external form."
[11:52]

Apollo vs. Athena: Contrasting Approaches to Justice

[13:24] Mr. Thomas Lackey:
The conversation delves into Apollo's role in attempting to mediate between the old and new forms of justice, highlighting his push for a procedural approach.

[16:16] Deacon Harrison:
Deacon questions the effectiveness of Apollo’s approach, noting that his methods may fall short of providing a satisfactory resolution to Orestes' plight.

[25:40] Deacon Harrison:
He emphasizes the importance of procedural justice in mitigating personal vendettas, advocating for a system that removes individual biases and seeks impartial decisions.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Frank Grabowski: "Justice now is being thought of as an event or a process rather than just an outcome."
[24:46]

Themes and Motifs: Ritual Purity and the Polis

[18:31] Mr. Thomas Lackey:
Mr. Lackey introduces the concept of ritual purity, explaining how Orestes' actions and subsequent purification rituals set the stage for the trial that defines The Eumenides.

[20:27] Deacon Harrison:
He draws parallels between Aeschylus' depiction of ritual purification and modern notions of preparing for significant events, underscoring the necessity yet insufficiency of rituals in achieving justice.

Notable Quote:
Deacon Harrison: "The moment that the judge bangs his gavel... the verdict is reached."
[24:46]

Character Analysis: Clytemnestra and the Furies

[29:32] Dr. Frank Grabowski:
Dr. Grabowski raises questions about the novelty of Clytemnestra's interaction with the Furies, noting the lack of other examples in ancient sources where a shade interacts directly with deities.

[32:46] Mr. Thomas Lackey:
He discusses Clytemnestra's active role in rousing the Furies, suggesting it highlights her vengeful nature and the extremity of Orestes' crime.

Notable Quote:
Deacon Harrison: "Clytemnestra does... rouse the Furies, warning them to hunt Orestes down."
[29:32]

Divine Intervention and Harmony

[53:16] Mr. Thomas Lackey:
Mr. Lackey explores the intentional juxtapositions Aeschylus creates between the age-old Furies and the younger Olympian gods, reflecting the societal shifts in Athens from old to new orders.

[56:25] Mr. Thomas Lackey:
He connects Aeschylus' work to Heraclitus' philosophy, suggesting that the playwright incorporates the unity of opposites—such as night and day, male and female—to illustrate the necessity of harmony within society.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Frank Grabowski: "Aeschylus is heavily influenced by Heraclitus in this respect."
[56:25]

Procedural Justice: The Trial of Orestes

[61:06] Mr. Thomas Lackey:
The discussion moves towards Athena's role in establishing a judicial system to adjudicate Orestes' guilt, emphasizing the introduction of procedural fairness over personal vengeance.

[72:03] Mr. Thomas Lackey:
He critiques the arguments presented by Apollo, suggesting that Athena's approach aligns more closely with a balanced, society-based justice system rather than divine retribution.

[80:46] Dr. Frank Grabowski:
Dr. Grabowski adds that the new system provides transparency and intellectual satisfaction, as justice becomes an observable, communal process rather than a hidden, personal vendetta.

Notable Quote:
Mr. Thomas Lackey: "Athena seems to recognize that reintegrates them in some way."
[66:49]

Conclusion and Forward Look

As the episode concludes, the hosts and guests reflect on how The Eumenides serves as a pivotal point in the maturation of justice from personal retribution to a structured legal system. They anticipate that the upcoming episode will further dissect the trial proceedings and evaluate whether Aeschylus successfully advanced the concept of justice, setting the stage for understanding Plato's philosophical contributions.

[86:57] Deacon Harrison:
Deacon thanks the guests and previews the next episode, which will focus on the trial segment of The Eumenides and its implications for the evolution of justice in Western thought.

Key Takeaways

• The Eumenides marks the transition from familial vengeance to civic procedural justice.
• Aeschylus utilizes the characters of the Furies and Athena to symbolize outdated and emerging notions of justice.
• The introduction of a trial introduces transparency and collective decision-making, laying the groundwork for modern judicial systems.
• The interplay between old and new gods reflects societal shifts in ancient Athens, mirroring philosophical debates on justice and governance.

Notable Quotes with Attribution

• Dr. Frank Grabowski ([05:14]):
  "The Oresteia really does constitute a kind of argument of sorts. We can see Aeschylus develop his thoughts through his characters on justice."

• Mr. Thomas Lackey ([11:52]):
  "There's an internal forum, if you will, of guilt as well as an external form."

• Dr. Frank Grabowski ([24:46]):
  "Justice now is being thought of as an event or a process rather than just an outcome."

• Dr. Frank Grabowski ([56:25]):
  "Aeschylus is heavily influenced by Heraclitus in this respect."

Resources Mentioned

• 115 Question & Answer Guide to the Iliad by Deacon Harrison Garlick (available on Ascend’s upcoming website)
• Translation of King Arthur and Camelot being read to Deacon’s daughter
• Hesiod’s Works: References to Hesiod’s influence on Aeschylus

Join the Conversation:
For those who haven't listened to the episode, this summary encapsulates the deep dive into The Eumenides, highlighting how Aeschylus navigates complex themes of justice, divine intervention, and societal evolution. To engage further, listeners are encouraged to follow Ascend on X, YouTube, and visit the website for additional resources and discussion guides.