Episode Summary: Aquinas and the Euthyphro Dilemma with Dr. Donald Prudlo

Podcast: Ascend – The Great Books Podcast
Hosts: Deacon Harrison Garlick, Adam Minihan
Guest: Dr. Donald Prudlo, Chair of Philosophy and Religion at University of Tulsa
Date: September 9, 2025

Overview

This episode examines Plato’s Euthyphro Dilemma—its context, meaning, and enduring significance—especially how it is addressed within the Catholic intellectual tradition through the thought of St. Thomas Aquinas. Dr. Donald Prudlo, an expert on medieval philosophy and sainthood, joins the hosts to discuss why the Dilemma matters, how it sets a watershed for Western thought, and what Aquinas contributes to resolving the challenge it poses for both polytheistic and monotheistic philosophy. The episode explores the historical, philosophical, and modern ramifications of whether moral norms come from divine will or from something independent of the divine.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Role of Humor, History, and the Great Books (03:23–11:36)

• Importance of Humor in Philosophy:
  • Dr. Prudlo emphasizes humor as “a proper note of human nature,” suggesting that a lack of humor is suspicious in academics.
  • “Some say that Christ was like us in all things but sin. But one thing you don't always see in the Scriptures is His humor… I've got to think that he's laughing all the time.” (04:09 – Prudlo)
• Reading Plato as Drama:
  • The hosts and Dr. Prudlo agree that Plato’s dialogues are dramatic and often intentionally humorous, especially Euthyphro.
  • “One of the things we've really focused on is really accepting them as a drama… You need to step into the characters.” (06:27 – Garlick)
• The Importance of Historical Context:
  • Dr. Prudlo argues that understanding philosophical and theological texts within their historical context is crucial.
  • “Once you get to Judaism and Christianity, it's embedded in history, and that's the way that God has chosen to reveal himself…” (05:28 – Prudlo)
• The Great Conversation:
  • Reading the Great Books chronologically highlights how ideas develop and interconnect.
  • "You really see the fingerprints of the plays on Plato's dialogues… the Euthyphro dilemma was already implicit in the Greek playwrights.” (08:14 – Garlick)

2. Euthyphro Dilemma: Historical Roots and Personal Impact (11:36–23:07)

• Personal Encounters:
  • Dr. Prudlo shares how the Euthyphro dialogue “woke [him] up to philosophy” as a student.
  • “I could kind of see myself in Euthyphro. The cocksure young 18 year old… gets devastated by Socrates and doesn't even realize it.” (09:58 – Prudlo)
• Plato, Aristotle, and Aquinas:
  • Prudlo emphasizes the continuity between Plato, Aristotle, and Aquinas; he dismisses simplistic accounts that divide them into strict camps.
  • “There's really much more that they share than is distinct between the two [Plato & Aristotle]… St. Thomas is deeply embedded in an Augustinian Neoplatonist world.” (12:54 – Prudlo)
• Transmission of Ideas:
  • Historical note: Aquinas often received Plato secondhand, mainly via Augustine and the Neoplatonists.

3. The Nature of the ‘Great Conversation’ (23:07–29:23)

• Necessity of Teachers:
  • The great books should not just be “a collection of signs and symbols.” Proper guidance is essential.
  • “…You need someone to lead you through the great text. You need an actual appreciator, a teacher to help you with this.” (09:58 – Prudlo)
• Summa as Dialogue:
  • The hosts and Prudlo compare Plato's dialogues to Aquinas' Summa, noting its dialogical, question & answer structure.

4. Why the Euthyphro Dialogue Matters (29:23–35:30)

• Setting of Euthyphro:
  • The dialogue’s timing precedes Socrates’ trial and death, amplifying its significance.
  • “Socrates is about to be put on trial for his life and he's thinking about piety and the gods… he gives us an idea of piety that is embedded in the community, embedded in family.” (29:23 – Prudlo)
• Apology as Response:
  • The hosts point out that Plato’s Apology, which follows Euthyphro, can be read as an answer to the problem of piety raised in Euthyphro.

The Euthyphro Dilemma: Breakdown and Analysis

1. The Dilemma in its Original (Polytheistic) Context (35:30–48:08)

• The Classic Framing:
  • “Is the pious being loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is being loved by the gods?”
  • This creates the famous “two horn” dilemma:
    • First Horn (Intellectualist/Realist): There is a standard of piety (or goodness) above the gods; the gods merely recognize what is already good.
    • Second Horn (Divine Command/Voluntarism): Things are good solely because the gods will them—it is their will that establishes right and wrong.
• Homer as Example:
  • The Iliad displays both horns: Zeus bound by fate (first horn), and mortals striving to obey arbitrary divine commands (second horn).
    • “Homer shows us both sides of the dilemma… Sometimes Zeus seems to be adhering to this nameless fate… but piety is also just obedience to whichever god is pulling the strings today.” (43:43 – Garlick)
• Historical Stakes:
  • The dilemma represents, per Dr. Prudlo, a “watershed issue” for Western philosophy, as it determines whether reality is grounded in objective order or in arbitrary power.

2. The Dilemma in a Monotheistic Context & Aquinas’ Response (54:28–71:26)

• Monotheistic Restatement:
  • Now the dilemma is: Is something good because God wills it, or does God will it because it is good?
• Aquinas’ Mediating Solution:
  Dr. Prudlo:
  • “God is the moral norm… when God says ‘thou shalt not kill’, more accurately ‘thou shalt not murder’, he cannot say ‘thou shalt murder’ because that would mean going against his very nature.” (55:02–61:18)
    • God and Good are Identical: In God, will and intellect are the same; “his intellect is his will, is his love, is his charity, is his goodness.”
    • Omnipotence and Contradiction: God cannot do the logically impossible (e.g., make murder just), because that would contradict his unchanging, perfectly ordered nature.
    • “Nonsense doesn’t cease to be nonsense just because you put the word God in front of it.” (Quote of C.S. Lewis, 55:02–61:18)
  • The “false dilemma” is predicated on separating God and the Good, which the Christian tradition refuses to do: “God is the good.”
• Difficult Biblical Cases:
  • Aquinas’ distinctions allow him to address issues like God commanding Abraham to sacrifice Isaac: God, as the author of life, can assign life and death without violating the moral law, and allows his "vicegerents" to act on his behalf in unique cases.
• Augustine and the Divine Ideas:
  • The real “ideas” (the eternal forms) are not above or outside God, but exist in the divine mind (the Logos), preventing voluntarism.
  • “The Logos saves early Christianity from a pure voluntarism… if we're tied to rationality, order and purpose from the beginning, and that Jesus is that rationality, order and purpose, we can't go entirely to the way of saying that all of these are arbitrary decisions on the part of God.” (68:07 – Prudlo)

Notable Quotes & Thought-Provoking Moments

• Dr. Prudlo on Reading the Great Books:
  “Most books are worth no reads, and some books are worth one read. But these books, we call them great because they're worth rereading our entire lives long.” (25:24)
• On Intellectual Engagement:
  "If you cannot articulate your opponent's position as well as they can, then do you really have the business of presenting your own?" (22:40 – Prudlo)
• On Dialogue and Argument:
  "The question answer format is the natural way that we learn because it's a conversation with a person." (23:07 – Garlick)
• Aquinas' Position Summary:
  "God is the moral norm. He isn't subject to a moral norm, he is the moral norm… when he issues these laws to us, they are good because he himself is good." (60:11 – Prudlo)
• On the Modern World:
  “The will to power will trump that [reason or rationality]… That is directly the result that Plato saw—this is the crux, the most important question, the Euthyphro dilemma in Western philosophy.” (48:08 – Prudlo)
• On Submission and Freedom:
  “In certain cases, submission brings liberation... It's actually by conforming yourself to gravity, conforming yourself to the laws of physics, that we can build bridges and airplanes… How much more so when you consider metaphysical realities.” (82:14 – Prudlo)
• On Education and Encounter:
  "It's going to be person to person… you can see that you know another person who's creating the image and likeness of God, even if… that image is smudged a bit." (84:57 – Prudlo)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:35–08:14: Grounding philosophy in humor, drama, and historical context
• 09:58–11:36: Personal encounter with the Euthyphro dialogue and its formative impact
• 12:54–17:13: Relationship between Plato, Aristotle, and Aquinas; transmission of ideas
• 29:23–31:28: The significance of Euthyphro in the Platonic canon and philosophy
• 35:30–44:13: Textual analysis of the Euthyphro Dilemma in a polytheistic context and Homeric parallels
• 54:28–61:18: Bringing the dilemma into the monotheistic tradition and Thomistic response
• 68:07–71:26: The Christian integration of the Logos and the implications for faith, reason, and freedom
• 71:55–79:16: Modern culture as a sea of voluntarism; historical trajectory from the medievals to Nietzsche
• 82:14–86:23: The need for person-to-person encounters in teaching and forming others

Takeaways for First-Time and Advanced Listeners

• The Euthyphro Dilemma is not just an ancient paradox about piety but a fundamental orientation for how we view reality: objective order versus the primacy of will.
• Plato’s formulation sets up key questions that recur in Western thought, giving rise to critical distinctions in theology and philosophy, especially in the Christian era.
• St. Thomas Aquinas offers a sophisticated reframing, teaching that God and the Good are identical, so moral norms are inseparable from God’s nature.
• The debate between intellectualism and voluntarism remains highly relevant for understanding trends in modern society, where the will often seeks primacy over order or reason.
• Reading the Great Books, especially with guidance and in conversation, is shown to be not only intellectually rewarding but also necessary for reclaiming our philosophical and theological heritage.