Ascend - The Great Books Podcast: Dante's Inferno Ep. 3: Cantos 6-11 with Dr. Jason Baxter

Host: Deacon Harrison Garlick
Guest: Dr. Jason Baxter
Release Date: March 18, 2025

Introduction

In this enlightening episode of Ascend - The Great Books Podcast, hosts Deacon Harrison Garlick and Adam Minihan delve deeper into Dante Alighieri's Inferno, specifically focusing on Cantos 6 through 11. Joined by Dr. Jason Baxter, a scholar and author with a fresh translation of the Inferno, the conversation explores the intricate layers of Upper Hell, characterized by sins of incontinence, and transitions into the foreboding City of Dis, an entrance to Lower Hell where malice prevails.

Guest Background and Motivation

[00:00] Deacon Harrison Garlick:
Introduces Dr. Jason Baxter, highlighting his credentials as the Director of the Center for Beauty and Culture at Benedictine College and author of several books, including A Beginner's Guide to Dante's Comedy and his recent translation of Dante's Inferno. Garlick emphasizes Baxter's commitment to bringing Dante closer to readers through meticulous translation and scholarly insight.

[03:49] Dr. Jason Baxter:
Shares his inspiration for translating the Inferno. Baxter explains his desire to move beyond mere teaching points and immerse himself in Dante's masterful language. He likens the translation process to learning a complex piano piece, aiming to internalize Dante's rhythm and emotional depth to capture the poem's original energy.

Exploring Cantos 6-11

Canto 6: Gluttony

Dr. Baxter provides a vivid analysis of the third circle of Hell, where the gluttonous reside. He likens modern gluttons to "food snobs" and "epicures," individuals who seek happiness through excessive consumption of food and material goods. This contrapasso, or punishment by the crime, places the gluttons in a filthy rain, symbolizing the irrationality and disgust of their uncontrolled appetites.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Jason Baxter [04:28]:
"If I could capture that type of rhythm... then I would help sort of restore the incredible energy of the original."

Canto 7-8: Avarice and Wrath

The discussion shifts to the fourth circle, where avarice and prodigality are punished by rolling heavy stones in an eternal, futile struggle. Baxter draws parallels between Dante's portrayal and contemporary political conflicts, comparing the endless opposition between hoarders and spendthrifts to a never-ending presidential election, underscoring the futility and self-destructive nature of their obsessions with wealth.

In Canto 7, the wrathful are depicted thrashing in a muddy Styx-like river, embodying the chaos of unmanaged anger. Dr. Baxter connects this to modern "party culture," where excessive and irrational consumption often masks deeper wounds and unresolved issues.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Jason Baxter [07:52]:
"Dante sort of almost felt it as a parody of bliss, of a parody of joy... It’s this easy excess."

Canto 9: The City of Dis

As Dante and Virgil approach the City of Dis, the sixth circle, they encounter formidable defenses including half-beast creatures like Medusa and the Furies. Here, Dr. Baxter highlights the transition from Upper to Lower Hell, emphasizing the limitations of Virgil—an embodiment of human reason—as he cannot overcome the city's divine barriers. This necessitates divine intervention, symbolizing the need for grace to progress beyond pure reason.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Jason Baxter [65:55]:
"The Christian poet has to come up with a language which begins with Virgil and then stretches it on either end... because this is grace coming from on high to help us achieve the deepest possible depths."

Canto 10: Heretics

In Canto 10, the focus shifts to heretics, particularly Epicureans who denied the immortality of the soul. Dr. Baxter discusses Farinata degli Uberti, a prominent Florentine politician and a leader among the heretics, illustrating how Dante portrays political obsession as a form of intellectual violence against oneself. This canto serves as a critique of narrow-mindedness and the destructive fixation on temporal matters over spiritual truths.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Jason Baxter [85:46]:
"The heretics might be related to the violent in that way, or at least adjacent... altogether, a desire to hurt someone in their words and their mind and controlling sociological situations."

Structure and Thematic Insights

Dr. Baxter elaborates on Dante's architectural metaphor of Hell, structured into Upper and Lower Hell based on the nature of sins—sins of incontinence (lack of self-control) and sins of malice (intentional wrongdoing). He emphasizes the hierarchical severity, with malice being deemed more grievous due to its rootedness in reason and intentional harm.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Jason Baxter [100:40]:
"These are rowdy, irrational excesses, whereas malice is a corruption of our unique capacity for speech and truth, creating a 'perfect evil' that fractures reality itself."

Political Context of Dante's Florence

A significant portion of the discussion delves into the intricate political landscape of Florence during Dante's time, involving the Guelphs and Ghibellines factions. Dr. Baxter provides a comprehensive overview of their origins, motivations, and the enduring impact on Dante's portrayal of political and intellectual corruption in Hell.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Jason Baxter [88:35]:
"You can recognize it as two huge tectonic plates grinding against each other—the Pope's new moneyed Guelph supporters versus the Emperor's old aristocratic Ghibelline supporters."

Philosophical and Theological Reflections

The hosts and Dr. Baxter explore the interplay between reason and faith, the role of grace, and the psychological dimensions of sin as depicted by Dante. They discuss how Dante's alignment of sin with psychological states like righteous indignation and acedia (sloth) offers a profound critique of human moral failings.

Notable Quote:
Deacon Harrison Garlick [99:49]:
"These souls that we've just encountered weren't able to think iconically or maybe even better refused to think iconically about the things in their lives because they wanted to lock them down as their personal quantitative possessions."

Conclusion and Takeaways

As the conversation wraps up, Dr. Baxter and Garlick emphasize the enduring relevance of Dante's Inferno in understanding human nature, morality, and the consequences of our actions. They highlight how Dante's vivid portrayal of Hell serves not only as a theological construct but also as a psychological map of human vice and virtue.

Final Notable Quote:
Dr. Jason Baxter [112:23]:
"Inferno is the act of discreation. Inferno is sort of like running the seven days of creation back, melting human souls into this sort of like pure plasma... and then it can be reformed into something which is beautiful, but we've got to encounter the fear of the Lord first."

Additional Resources

Listeners interested in exploring Dante's Inferno further can access the provided 115 Question & Answer Guide to the Iliad and other resources at thegreatbookspodcast.com. Dr. Jason Baxter's works and his insights on literature and culture are available at jasonmbaxter.com and his Substack, Beauty Matters.

This episode offers a profound exploration of Dante's Inferno, blending literary analysis with theological and psychological insights. Whether you're a first-time reader or revisiting the Inferno, this discussion provides valuable frameworks for understanding the complex architecture of Hell and the timeless lessons it imparts.