Ascend - The Great Books Podcast Episode Summary: Homer and the Greek Plays: A Roundtable with Friends Release Date: July 15, 2025
Hosted by Deacon Harrison Garlick and Adam Minihan
Introduction
In this poignant final episode of their journey through the Greek plays, Deacon Harrison Garlick and Adam Minihan host a roundtable discussion featuring friends and scholars, including Dr. Frank Grabowski, David Niles, and Thomas Lackey. The conversation delves deep into the key themes of divinity, Eros, fate, justice, the cosmos, virtue, and suffering as portrayed in seminal Greek works such as the Oresteia, Prometheus Bound, the Theban Plays, and the Bacchae, alongside touches on Homer, Hesiod, and Aristophanes.
Favorite Plays and Initial Impressions
Deacon Harrison Garlick opens the discussion by reflecting on the culmination of their study of Greek plays, emphasizing their role as an intellectual bridge between Homer and Plato. He shares his appreciation for the journey and introduces the guests:
- David Niles expresses frustration with personal challenges but highlights his enjoyment of Antigone and Oedipus at Colonus, viewing The Iliad as a foundational touchstone.
- Thomas Lackey favors Agamemnon and finds Oedipus at Colonus particularly surprising and thought-provoking.
- Dr. Frank Grabowski resonates with The Bacchae for its sophisticated exploration of piety and its connections to pagan plays and future discussions on Plato.
Key Themes Explored
1. Divinity
The conversation begins with an exploration of how the concept of divinity matures from Homeric texts to later Greek plays.
- Harrison notes that in Homer, gods are portrayed as finite beings with flawed personalities, often reflecting human vices. "The gods... have these imploded personalities that are obsessive on certain traits," he explains.
- Dr. Grabowski contrasts this with a more mature depiction of Zeus in the Odyssey, who "defends not only himself but the entire Greek pantheon against accusations made by mortals" [16:54].
- Thomas Lackey observes a shift where gods become less direct and more abstract, hinting at a move towards monotheistic interpretations. "There's a sense in which there's a... maturation towards something like monotheism..." [17:09].
Notable Quote:
Dr. Frank Grabowski [16:54]: "I think in Homer, the gods are creatures subject to time with flawed personalities, but in the Odyssey, Zeus appears more mature, defending the pantheon and maintaining cosmic order."
2. Eros (Erotic Love)
Eros is dissected from its primordial roots in The Iliad and Hesiod's Theogony to its complex representations in Greek plays.
- Harrison describes Eros as a cosmic force essential for generation and order: "Eros gives the cosmos its fecundity... moving things towards their end."
- David Niles and Thomas Lackey discuss the destructive portrayal of Eros in The Bacchae, contrasting it with earlier, more generative depictions.
- Deacon Harrison connects Eros to Plato’s later philosophical constructs, emphasizing its transformation from chaotic love to an ascent towards divine beauty.
Notable Quote:
Deacon Harrison Garlick [46:15]: "Eros is the movement of the cosmos... it's a cosmic force that animates and moves all things towards their end."
3. Fate and Free Will
The interplay between fate (moira) and free will is a central discussion point, especially in Homeric epics versus Greek tragedies.
- Dr. Grabowski distinguishes between fatalism and determinism, arguing that characters possess "a degree of agency" despite overarching fate [62:01].
- Thomas Lackey suggests that fate in Greek thought represents a moral ordering, not mere temporal destiny, aligning closely with natural law concepts.
- Harrison posits an arc where Greek literature progresses from fate-dominated narratives in Homer to more nuanced understandings of free will and justice in later plays and Plato.
Notable Quote:
Thomas Lackey [66:44]: "There’s something about our limited human sight that the gods can see much farther, influencing our decisions and leading to suffering when we make choices they cannot foresee."
4. Justice
Justice evolves from the Iliad’s retributive justice to the procedural justice depicted in Aeschylus’ Oresteia.
- Thomas Lackey highlights how Aeschylus transitions justice from personal retribution to a more societal, procedural model, effectively breaking the cycle of violence [86:56].
- Dr. Grabowski connects justice to honor (dike and timei) in Homer, where personal honor directly impacts perceptions of justice [97:04].
- Deacon Harrison emphasizes the alignment of justice with cultural norms and divine order, noting its development through Greek literature into philosophical thought.
Notable Quote:
Thomas Lackey [86:56]: "The Oresteia shows the maturation of justice from the blood avenger model to a more procedural political model."
5. The Cosmos
The ordered cosmos is depicted as an intelligible, balanced whole that parallels individual and societal structures.
- Harrison references Achilles’ Shield as a symbolic representation of cosmic order, influencing how Greek playwrights envision justice and piety.
- Dr. Grabowski underscores the Greek understanding of the macrocosm-microcosm relationship, where cosmic order informs societal and personal order [116:59].
Notable Quote:
Dr. Frank Grabowski [116:59]: "The cosmos and the individual soul are intimately connected; understanding the universe’s order helps us structure our own lives and societies."
6. Virtue
Virtue (areté) is tied to order and purpose within the cosmos, evolving from Homeric ideals to Platonic philosophy.
- Thomas Lackey discusses how virtue in Greek plays reflects acting in harmony with cosmic and societal orders, laying groundwork for Platonic ideas [120:27].
- David Niles connects virtue to the potential for human excellence, fostering moral and societal harmony [121:09].
- Deacon Harrison anticipates Plato’s detailed exploration of virtue and teleology, seeing Plato as expanding on these foundational Greek concepts.
Notable Quote:
Deacon Harrison Garlick [123:06]: "The virtuous man understands his duties to the family, polis, and the gods, maintaining their hierarchical order within the cosmos."
7. Suffering
Suffering is portrayed as both a cause of wisdom and a potential path to chaos, mirroring the duality in Greek narratives.
- Deacon Harrison parallels Greek themes of suffering with Christian understanding, suggesting that suffering reveals truth and fosters redemption [131:35].
- Thomas Lackey and Dr. Grabowski discuss how Greek heroes’ suffering leads to personal growth and cosmic order, though sometimes it leaves enduring tensions and unresolved questions [137:14].
- David Niles and Deacon Harrison reflect on the pedagogical nature of suffering in Greek plays, comparing it to Christian narratives of redemption.
Notable Quote:
Deacon Harrison Garlick [132:08]: "Suffering is a fundamental aspect of the human condition, driving us towards truth and redemption, much like Oedipus transforms his suffering into a blessing for others."
Conclusion and Transition to Plato
As the discussion wraps up, the hosts and guests reflect on the profound insights gained from Greek literature and its influence on Western thought. They acknowledge the complexities and enduring questions posed by the Greek plays, particularly around justice and suffering.
Deacon Harrison Garlick expresses gratitude to his guests for their insightful contributions and looks forward to continuing the exploration with Plato's dialogues, starting with Alcibiades. He underscores the importance of these discussions in shaping personal and collective understanding.
Notable Final Thought:
David Niles [144:47]: "Studying these ancient texts not only enriches our understanding of Western culture but also enhances our personal virtues and moral frameworks."
The episode beautifully encapsulates the essence of the Greek plays, highlighting their relevance and depth while setting the stage for the next phase of their Great Books journey into Platonic philosophy.
Listeners are encouraged to visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for further resources, including the free 115 Question & Answer Guide to the Iliad authored by Deacon Harrison Garlick.