Ascend - The Great Books Podcast

Episode: Introduction to Dante's Purgatorio with Dr. Jason Baxter

Hosts: Deacon Harrison Garlick & Adam Minihan
Guest: Dr. Jason Baxter (Director, Center for Beauty and Culture, Benedictine College)
Date: February 10, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Harrison Garlick and Adam Minihan introduce listeners to Dante’s Purgatorio with Dr. Jason Baxter, whose new translation of the work serves as the foundation for the podcast’s Lenten readalong. The discussion covers why Purgatorio is essential reading, how it functions as a “guidebook” for spiritual ascent, the unique features of Baxter’s translation, and the spiritual as well as pedagogical considerations in translating Dante. The conversation weaves together insights on beauty, the structure of the soul, Christian theology, poetic style, and practical advice for first-time readers delving into Dante’s masterpiece.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Read Purgatorio? What Is Its Importance?

(08:32-14:53)

• Contrast with Inferno: While Dante’s Inferno is synonymous with darkness and sin, Purgatorio marks a “key change,” offering a vision filled with hope, mercy, and transformation.
  • Dr. Baxter: “Purgatorio is exciting. It’s a place of unexpected mercy. It’s a place of hope, change – eternal New Year’s resolutions, right? … Everyone is saved in Purgatorio … but they’re not yet good at love, not yet good at communion, their souls are not yet clean.” (09:54)
• A Spiritual Guidebook:
  Purgatorio is framed as a practical map for spiritual ascent – how to move toward sanctification and become “more beautiful, as Christ is beautiful.”
  • “Purgatorio is an invitation to become more beautiful, as Christ is beautiful, to ascend the mountain and engage in that purification.” (03:00)
• The Imagery of the Mountain: Each terrace represents a vice to be purged; spiritual exercises are undertaken to transform the soul’s dispositions, not just its actions.
  • Souls embrace their purifications, unlike those in Hell who fight against them—highlighting the fundamental difference between redemption and damnation.

2. Dante’s Poetic Genius and the Structure of Purgatorio

(17:52-20:14, 32:01-40:41)

• Christian Poetics – The Marriage of High and Low:
  • Dr. Baxter: “If you could map Wendell Berry’s poetry on top of Boethius’, you’d have something like the linguistic fabric of Dante’s Purgatorio … trying to create layers of style, ascending and yet anchored with humble words.” (27:22)
  • Dante intentionally flexes between sophisticated, classical language and humble, everyday Italian.
    • “In this incredibly beautiful, complicated poetry, you have some of the loftiest phrases … and then some of the most humble.” (35:15)
• Pedagogy in Style:
  • Dante’s syntax and word choice teach readers through literary form—not just content.
    • “Dante the master has a certain pedagogy, not just in what he says, but in how he says it … this kind of rich rhetoric … is lost on us today.” (31:03-31:35)
• Incarnational Poetics: The poem itself parallels the Incarnation — descending in humility to achieve transcendent ascent.

3. Translating Dante: Spirituality and Craft

(20:14-30:26)

• Embodied Approach:
  • Dr. Baxter: “I wanted to be like that kid learning a piano composition … not in the head, not in the brain, it’s in the nervous system. It’s in the body, in the chest, in the heart. Your relationship to the piece of music changes. I wanted that with Dante.” (20:53)
  • The act of translating becomes a deeply personal, even spiritual journey, allowing total immersion in the text’s “music.”
• Conveying Dante’s Atmosphere:
  Dr. Baxter discusses deliberately preserving Dante’s stylistic contrasts, such as his use of “prolixitas” (long, gliding syntax) versus the jagged, abrupt structures of Inferno.
• Notable Quote:
  • “This is a Christian poet who’s invented a Christian way of not just producing Christian content, but doing it in a Christian style.” (28:43)
• Illustrative Example (Purgatorio 27):
  • Dr. Baxter reads a passage likening Dante and his companions to goats and shepherds, demonstrating both poetic elevation and earthy humility (32:31-35:15).

4. Spiritual Surgery and the Purpose of Purgatorio

(41:40-47:43)

• Beyond Avoiding Sin:
  • Dr. Baxter: “The Christian life is not about downloading the correct 17 opinions … Christianity is not a philosophy; it is philosophical … Ultimately, the being that we worship is beyond philosophy … Surgery is a long process, a process of removal, which can sometimes be painful, so that then it can heal.” (41:40-44:48)
• Purgatorio as Spiritual Surgery:
  The journey is not about rule-following or mere avoidance of evil but a transformative ascent—a reconfiguration of the soul to the likeness of Christ.
  • “You see that purgation, but it’s not simply: ‘Oh, you did these sins, therefore you have to do that.’ There’s these dispositions, these contours of the soul which have to be reshaped into the image of Jesus Christ.” (45:16)
• Embracing Purification:
  Using a Ratzinger quote, the hosts discuss how souls in Hell resist purifying fire, while souls in Purgatory welcome it, leading to true sanctification.

5. Eros, Love, and Theological Significance

(49:45-54:56)

• Purgatorio and the Tradition of Eros:
  • Dante’s use of love (“amore,” “foco d’amore”) is connected to classical eros—the soul’s desire for beauty ultimately fulfilled in God.
    • “The fire in the soul, this natural love, isn’t really satiated until that infinite desire can satiate on infinite beauty, which is God … a love poet actually has a lot to offer you.” (49:45-52:51)
  • This aligns with the Platonic and Aristotelian idea that love is the fundamental force driving ascent towards the divine.
• The Alacrity of Love:
  • Dante describes the slothful in Purgatorio as running “with righteous will and ordered love … quickly, quickly, lest time be lost in lacking love.” (54:00)
  • Dr. Baxter: “That sense of the alacrity, the wingedness of love, which expresses itself … in luminosity, burning, but also in a sense of speed … the regreening of the heart.” (54:50)

6. Practical Advice for First-Time Readers

(55:29-58:21)

• Listen and Attend:
  • Dr. Baxter recommends the audiobook (read by himself) to help listeners access the soundscape and subtlety of Dante’s poetic form. (55:30)
• Slow, Attentive Reading:
  • “Read with a sense of attentiveness to unusual images … be the literary critic for a little while and say: why would Dante do that here?” (56:26)
  • Seek out moments of “little puzzles, little curiosities, or images that you don’t think you’ll forget.”
• Let Dante Teach You:
  • “Literature is meant in some sense to resonate something which is written in the heart. And if you got a heart, literature can sort of retune you to reality.” (59:30)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the hope of Purgatory:
  • “Infinite goodness has such encompassing arms. It will embrace whoever comes back to it. As long as there are sprigs of green, there is hope.” – Dr. Baxter quoting Manfred (09:54)
• On Dante’s style:
  • “An incarnational poetics … Christ didn’t consider it an indignity to descend and take on our flesh … Dante figured out how to do it on the very level of his style.” (32:01)
• On spiritual formation:
  • “The goal of the Christian life is not to avoid sin … We actually have to configure ourselves to Christ, to become more beautiful as He is beautiful.” – Harrison Garlick (44:48)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00-04:18 – Introduction to the Purgatorio readalong for Lent and Dr. Jason Baxter’s translation
• 04:43-07:24 – Dr. Baxter describes the Center for Beauty and Culture
• 08:32-14:53 – Why read Purgatorio? The spiritual map and transformation
• 17:52-20:14 – Personal reflections on the “mapping” and appreciation of Purgatorio over time
• 20:14-30:26 – The vocation and process of translating Dante
• 32:01-40:41 – Synthesizing Dante’s “fugue” of poetic high/low registers; practical examples from the translation
• 41:40-47:43 – Spiritual surgery: configuring the soul to Christ, beyond mere avoidance of sin
• 49:45-54:56 – Eros, love, and the ascent of the soul; Platonic/Aristotelian connections
• 55:29-58:21 – Dr. Baxter’s advice to new readers: audiobooks, attentiveness, and confidence in personal insight
• 61:54-62:44 – Where to find more (Dr. Baxter’s website, substack, and ongoing projects)

Resources and Further Reading

• Dr. Baxter’s Translation of Purgatorio: jasonmbaxter.com
• Audiobook: Available via Dr. Baxter’s website (20% off with promo code “ascend”)
• Beginner’s Guide to Dante’s Divine Comedy by Dr. Baxter
• Beauty Matters Substack
• Next Episode: Discussion of Purgatorio Cantos 1–5 with Dr. Donald Prudlow

Final Thoughts

This episode lays an inspiring foundation for reading Purgatorio not as mere literature, but as a dynamic map for spiritual ascent, inviting listeners to encounter Dante as a fellow pilgrim. Dr. Baxter’s translation and commentary open doors for readers both new and experienced to appreciate the depth, beauty, and humanity of Dante’s vision.

For reading guides, community discussion, and more resources, visit thegreatbookspodcast.com or find Ascend on Patreon, X, YouTube, and Facebook.