Ascend – The Great Books Podcast

Episode: "Law of Nature: Part Three of Plato's Gorgias"

Hosts: Deacon Harrison Garlick & Adam Minihan
Guest: Dr. Gregory McBrayer (Ashland University, The New Thinkory Podcast)
Release Date: November 25, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores Part Three of Plato’s Gorgias, focusing on the infamous dialogue with Callicles—a character who boldly defends the pursuit of power and pleasure as nature’s law, presenting a stark contrast to Socrates’ lifelong commitment to virtue. Dr. Gregory McBrayer joins to untangle the complexities of Callicles’ argument, Gorgias’ responsibility as a teacher, and the enduring question: What does it mean to live justly? The conversation also examines the nature of rhetoric, the soul, and the indispensable role of myth in philosophical persuasion.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Podcast Collaboration & Great Books Outreach

• Introduction to The New Thinkory: Dr. McBrayer shares how their podcast started from a desire for honest, lively conversations about political philosophy—mixing “junior high banter with decent interpretations of texts” ([03:00]).
• Outreach to Everyday Listeners: Both Ascend and The New Thinkory recognize a "hunger" for big ideas among ordinary people—mechanics, homemakers, or anyone seeking wisdom ([08:00]).
  • McBrayer: “The idea that these great texts are the preserve of an intellectually trained class is sort of bonkers... Homer wasn’t writing for scholars. Plato wasn’t writing for scholars.” ([08:18])

2. The Humanity and Spirit of Great Books Study

• Eros for Wisdom: The hosts reflect on how passion for truth—rather than sterile academic detachment—inspires meaningful engagement and contagious enthusiasm in the classroom and beyond ([09:14], [10:10]).
  • Garlick: “If I find something that I really think is good and true and beautiful, I naturally want to share it.” ([09:14])
  • McBrayer: “I always want somebody whose passion for learning is contagious... burning questions, even if they’re not the same as mine.” ([10:12])

3. Why Read the Gorgias? Structure and Pedagogy

• Pedagogical Value: McBrayer explains the Gorgias is accessible yet rich—offering students an early but profound taste of political philosophy ([12:04]).
  • Key parallel: The structure mirrors Republic Book I, with Socrates facing first a gentle, then a spirited, then a combative interlocutor ([12:54]).
  • Importance of a "bad guy" (Callicles): Provides clarity and stakes for students new to philosophical argument ([14:00]).

4. The Character of Gorgias and the Influence of Sophists

• Is Gorgias to Blame for ‘Little Tyrants’?
  McBrayer gives a nuanced reading: Gorgias as a well-meaning yet naïve teacher—unaware that his neutral rhetoric can be weaponized for injustice ([17:07]).
  • McBrayer: “Gorgias is like a guy who's teaching people to shoot but he's not aware you can use a gun to kill people... I suspect Socrates’ conversation with Polus and Callicles is for the sake of Gorgias.” ([17:07])

5. Callicles: Nature, Law, and Early Nihilism

• Callicles as Proto-Nihilist?

  • Garlick notes that nihilism is not merely a modern development but present in the ancient world: “There’s nothing here to life besides maximizing my pleasure” ([23:00]).
  • Callicles’ stance: Justice is “the law of nature”—the strong rule the weak by right ([24:33]).
    • Quote: “Justice by nature holds that the superior rule the inferior and have a greater share.” — Callicles ([24:33])

• Confusion and Contradiction

  • Callicles simultaneously appeals to “nature” and “law,” even though (in Greek thought) these are opposed—he “swears” to emphasize his belief in a ‘law of nature’ ([26:36]).

6. The One vs. The Many—A Philosophic Paradox

• Callicles’ ‘One Against Many’: The tension mirrors Socratic alienation from the masses, yet Callicles’ ideal is appetitive dominance, not philosophic integrity ([28:10]).

7. Rhetoric vs. Dialectic—What Is True Speech?

• Socrates’ Critique: The episode explores whether any rhetoric can be “good” or only flattery unless guided by philosophy ([40:29]).
  • Garlick: “There must be a good rhetoric... a rhetoric brought under philosophy—a baptized rhetoric.” ([41:58])
  • McBrayer: “If you get rid of rhetoric, the only people with rhetoric will be bad people. One has to learn rhetoric precisely to inoculate oneself against people who can manipulate you.” ([41:58])
  • Examples cited: St. Paul’s epistles, Jesus’ parables, Augustine, Lincoln, all as masters of “true rhetoric.”

8. Pleasure, Appetites, and the Limits of Hedonism

• Callicles’ Argument: The superior man should let his appetites grow without restraint; self-control is a device of the weak ([48:15]).
• Socratic Rebuttal: Pushing the argument to absurdity and vulgarity, Socrates uses examples—e.g., the bird who eats and defecates constantly, incessant scratching—to reveal the shallowness of total hedonism ([51:04]).
  • Quote: “If a man scratches himself all day, is that happiness? — Certainly, says Callicles. — What if he’s scratching... something else? You’re not ashamed?” ([51:04])
  • The pedagogical purpose: To expose residual shame and moral standards within Callicles despite his bravado.

9. The Good vs. The Pleasant—Intermediate and Final Goods

• The hosts highlight Socrates’ distinction: Not all pleasures are good, and true happiness involves choosing pain or pleasure as instruments for the good ([64:24]).
  • Socrates: "The real man must reject living at any cost whatsoever." ([65:10])

10. Myths, Final Judgment, and the Soul

• The Myth of Final Judgment ([69:11]):

  • The naked soul, stripped of adornments, bears visible scars from injustice.
  • The myth completes the argument: In the afterlife, rhetoric and power are useless—only the soul’s true moral state matters.
    • Garlick: “The myth brings in that there will be a final justice, a reckoning you can’t hide from... the cosmos won’t suffer injustice to win out in the end.” ([77:30])
  • McBrayer: “[The myth] shows him in the afterlife, your rhetoric won’t get you anywhere—they’ll strip you naked and look at your soul.” ([77:51])

• Is the myth an admission of philosophical failure?

  • The hosts discuss whether mythology is employed as a “scare tactic” or because reason alone cannot persuade the recalcitrant. The myth communicates the order of the cosmos in a way argument cannot.

Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On democratizing Great Books

  "The idea that these great texts are the preserve of an intellectually trained class is sort of bonkers. If you hear a professor talk about Aristophanes and it's not funny... there's something perverse."
  — McBrayer ([08:18])

• On the passion for truth

  “I want to be surrounded by people who have burning questions, even if they're not the same as mine.”
  — McBrayer ([10:12])

• On Gorgias’ unwitting creation of tyrants

  "He's like a guy teaching people to shoot but unaware what they might do. I suspect Socrates' conversation with Polus and Callicles is largely for the sake of Gorgias."
  — McBrayer ([17:07])

• On Callicles as law-of-nature extremist

  “He says it’s a law of nature, which is a contradiction in terms in Greek, and even says it—'Yes, by Zeus, by the law of nature.'”
  — McBrayer ([24:39])

• On the necessity and risk of rhetoric

  “If you get rid of rhetoric, only the bad people will have it. We need to teach rhetoric to good people to inoculate them against manipulation.”
  — McBrayer ([41:58])

• On exposing the limits of hedonism

  “If a man scratches himself all day, is that happiness? Certainly, says Callicles. What if he’s scratching... something else? Aren’t you ashamed to bring this up?”
  — Socrates and Callicles ([51:04])

• On the judgment myth and the soul

  "The image that really captured my imagination is that the unjust man treats his soul the same way a tyrant treats a slave—the soul ends up scarred and ugly, for all to see."
  — Garlick ([70:35])

• On the need for a final reckoning

  “The myth shows that in the afterlife, your rhetoric won't get you anywhere. They’ll strip you naked and look at your soul. There, rhetoric has no power.”
  — McBrayer ([77:51])

Important Segment Timestamps

• [02:52] — Origin & spirit of The New Thinkory Podcast
• [08:18] — Democratizing great books: mechanics, homemakers, and laughter
• [12:04] — Why teach the Gorgias? Choosing texts for first-time readers
• [17:07] — Reading Gorgias: Unwitting progenitor of tyrants?
• [24:33] — The "law of nature" and Callicles’ radical position
• [41:58] — What is good rhetoric? Socrates, Aristotle, and Christian practice
• [51:04] — Socrates pushes Callicles on bodily pleasure and shame
• [64:24] — Final goods vs. pleasure; the real "manly" life
• [69:11] — Plato's myth: the last judgment and the soul

Conclusion & Next Episode Preview

This conversation between Deacon Garlick and Dr. McBrayer breathes new life into Plato’s Gorgias, asking whether it’s Callicles—not Socrates—who flinches at the final test of judgment. Myth, dialectic, and the quest for “true rhetoric” are not relics—they're vital for anyone seeking to live and think well.

Next week on Ascend: Flannery O'Connor's “The Lame Shall Enter First” with Dr. Brian Kempel.

Find Dr. Gregory McBrayer:

• The New Thinkory Podcast
• Twitter/X: @gregmcbr3new

Ascend Podcast:

• thegreatbookspodcast.com
• X, YouTube, Facebook, Patreon