Ascend - The Great Books Podcast:

"On the Death of Socrates: Introducing Plato’s Phaedo"

Hosts: Deacon Harrison Garlick (A) & Adam Minihan
Guests: “Athenian Stranger” (B) and Alec Bianco (C)
Date: October 7, 2025
Podcast Time Range/Summary Covers: [00:00]–[125:49]

Episode Overview

This episode is a deep, engaging introduction to Plato’s Phaedo, focusing particularly on how to approach the dialogue, why it’s important in the “Great Books” tradition, and what thematic elements to watch for—especially in the preamble and setting. The hosts and guests draw connections between Plato’s literary structure and enduring philosophical questions, especially regarding the soul, death, myth, and the role of philosophy in cultivating a beautiful life.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Why Read the Great Books?

• Great Books: Texts that shaped Western civilization—ancient and modern, pagan and Christian. Reading them helps reclaim intellectual roots and participate in the “great conversation” (A, [00:00–02:44]).
• Purpose: To understand enduring questions (“Who is man? Is there divine? What is virtue?”)—questions that recur from Homer to Nietzsche (A, [07:46]).
• Mentorship Model: Importance of learning with a guide and with companions, echoing the mentorship in the Odyssey and need for intellectual humility (A, [07:46]).

The Special Place of Plato

• Plato as a Pillar: Described as foundational—echoing Alfred North Whitehead: “All of Western philosophy is a footnote to Plato” (B, [10:54]).
• Engaging With Dialogues: Plato’s form (dramatized dialogues) is essential; meaning is inseparable from setting, character, and dramatic interplay—not abstract treatise (B, [10:54], A, [17:12]).
  • Quote: “You can't separate a soul from the kind of logos that is required to get through to it.” —B, [21:33]

How To Read Plato (Especially the Phaedo)

• Drama is Pedagogy: The opening setting, character choices, and initial myths are not throwaway details—they’re essential cues to philosophical meaning (A, [17:12]).
• Engagement Required: The dialogues contain multiple layers (literal, allegorical, moral, anagogical), like Scripture—reading deeply is akin to reading sacred texts (A, [17:12]).
• The Role of the Interlocutors (Simmias & Cebes): Their background and presuppositions shape the direction and limitations of the arguments. The philosophical drama is tuned to their Pythagorean influence and personal anxieties (B, [21:33]).

The Context and Setting of the Phaedo

• Narrative Structure: The story is told secondhand (Phaedo relays Socrates’ last day to Echecrates). Plato chooses not to narrate as himself nor insert himself as a character (A, [47:01], B, [76:19]).
• Why Pythagoreans?: The central interlocutors’ Pythagorean beliefs about the soul and its immortality frame the dialogue’s emphases, but also open space for Socrates’ richer line of questioning (A, [49:21]).

Notable Quote—On the Challenge of Dialogue:

“It’s really like being a fly on the wall in another person’s conversation…” —A, [35:07]

The Myth of Theseus and Its Purpose

• The Festival’s Role: Socrates’ execution is delayed due to the Athenian festival recalling Theseus’ deliverance of the 14 youths. Plato re-tells this myth in detail, drawing complex parallels with the dialogue’s structure (A, [50:55], B, [56:41]).
• Symbolism: Many commentators read Socrates as a Theseus figure leading his companions (the 14 named attendees) through the labyrinth of fear and mortality towards philosophical courage and hope (A, [64:52]).
• Multiple Allegories: Alternative readings position Socrates as a nurturing, myth-spinning “mother” or Plato himself as the absent narrator due to bodily illness, emphasizing the theme of body/soul and wisdom by indirection (B, [56:41], A, [88:16]).

Notable Quote—On the Parallel:

“If the imagery is to tell us that Socrates is Theseus, what’s the Minotaur that has to be slayed? Well, it would seem to be the fear of death…” —B, [56:41]

The Tension of Philosophy vs. Myth and the Role of Logos

• Logos and Inquiry: Socrates anchors philosophy in following the Logos (reason/speech/argument)—not just myth, not empty rhetoric (B, [76:19]).
• Limits of Reason: Spoiler: Socratic arguments for immortality are not decisive; the dialogue exposes the limits of reason and reminds us not to become cynical or wholly disbelieving (B, [21:33]).
• Myth as Lullaby: Socrates offers “myths” as soothing stories, but also as explorations for the fearful, especially in the face of death (A, [56:41]).

Notable Quote—On the Power and Limits of Logos:

“You don’t get to dictate where the logos goes…philosophy goes where the argument goes.” —B, [35:07]

The Drama’s Carnality and Emotion

• Physicality & Pathos: Despite all the talk of escaping the body, the opening and closing scenes are deeply embodied—rubbing legs, tears, embraces—complicating a simplistic “Gnostic” or body-denying interpretation (C, [38:12], [108:11]).
• Tension of Body and Soul: The dialogue dramatizes this tension and insists on sitting with its complexity.

Socratic Wisdom and the Pursuit of Beauty

• Transformation, Not Just Interpretation: Philosophy as a way of life—inviting not academic sterility but interior transformation and the pursuit of the beautiful (A, [122:49]).
• Virtue and Wisdom: The “only valid currency for which all things should be exchanged is wisdom” (C, quoting Socrates, [113:55]).

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• [00:54] – B (Athenian Stranger):
  “You have to find those [with philosophical natures]…because they speak to the only few questions that are worth asking in life.”
• [10:54] – B:
  “There’s only been about maybe 13 or between 13 and 15 people, period [who shaped philosophy]. That’s it.”
• [21:33] – B:
  “You can’t separate…a soul from the kind of logos that is required to get through to it…”
• [56:41] – B:
  “So what’s the Minotaur that has to be slayed? …it would seem to be the fear of death or…that the stories of what happens to the soul just are not true.”
• [63:54] – A:
  “The dialogue itself is a labyrinth and we have to follow its twists and turns… you want that yarn, you want someone to…be that mentor to guide you through it.”
• [69:26] – C (Alec Bianco):
  “[Myth] through a specific voice…reveals truth through a glass, darkly.”
• [76:19] – B:
  “He has to remove himself from this dialogue…If you want to know what the real trial of Socrates is…It’s the Phaedo.”
• [108:11] – C:
  “We are not tied to this physical world. We are asked to ascend to something higher, and yet we are physical and required to maintain…the beauty and virtue of this physical body.”
• [113:55] – C (quoting Socrates, 69B):
  “My good Simmias, I fear this is not the right exchange to attain virtue…The only valid currency for which all these things should be exchanged is wisdom.”
• [116:40] – B:
  “The most basic everyday experience…pleasure and pain…not simply the entirety of philosophy, but the question of the…cosmos comes tumbling out.”
• [122:49] – A:
  “Philosophy is simply a way of life…In pursuit of beauty, we become beautiful ourselves.”

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Why Read the Great Books? [05:00–07:46]
• Why Plato, Not Just Aristotle? [10:54–17:12]
• How to Read Plato's Dialogues [17:12–21:33]
• Dramatic Form and Setting [21:33–35:07]
• Why Read the Phaedo? [38:12–47:01]
• The Myth of Theseus & Phaedo’s Structure [50:55–69:26]
• Role of Plato's Absence/Illness [74:14–89:25]
• Courtroom Drama Parallel to Apology [89:25–92:49]
• Interlocutors and Intellectual Honesty [92:49–101:56]
• Advice for First-Time Readers [101:56–122:49]
• Concluding Thoughts: Philosophy as a Way of Life [122:49–125:49]

Recommendations for First-Time Readers of the Phaedo

• Pay Attention to Dramatic Details: Characters, setting, and even narrative structure are crucial—not mere “window dressing.”
• Notice the Role of Myth: Not just as story, but as a philosophical tool which complements and sometimes challenges reason (logos).
• Beware Simplistic “Gnosticism” Readings: Socrates’ remarks on the body are complex—physical affection, family life, and embodied emotion remain centrally portrayed.
• Dialogue Is Tailored to Interlocutors: The philosophical “direction” is set by their preconceptions and honest doubts.
• Witness Philosophy as Life: The goal is not just abstract argument, but transformation—toward the beautiful, good, and wise.

Resources & Where to Find More

• Athenian Stranger:
  athenscorner.com | “Athens Corner” on podcast platforms
• Alec Bianco & Searcy Institute:
  circeinstitute.org
• Ascend – The Great Books Podcast:
  thegreatbookspodcast.com | X (Twitter), YouTube, Facebook, Patreon

Overall Tone

The episode is welcoming, rigorous yet playful, and passionate about approaching the Phaedo not just as a philosophical text, but as a rich, living drama. It is especially supportive of new readers, urging them to persist through difficulty and to be attentive to both the content and the form—a model of the “mentorship” in reading that the hosts themselves extol.