Podcast Summary: "Plato and Education – The Teacher as a Lover of the Soul"

Ascend – The Great Books Podcast
Hosts: Deacon Harrison Garlick & Adam Minihan
Guests: Dr. Frank Grabowski, Dr. Brett Larson, Thomas Lackey
Date: December 9, 2025

Overview of the Episode

This episode dives deep into Plato’s philosophy of education, with a focus on the role of the teacher as a "lover of the soul," drawing on Plato’s First Alcibiades and Meno. The panel contrasts ancient pedagogy with contemporary models, exploring how the soul comes to know itself, the essential relationship between knowledge and love, and the centrality of beauty (eros) in education. The conversation indicts modern education’s flat, unerotic, and utilitarian focus, arguing for a return to the classical vision of formation. The episode also draws analogies between Socrates and figures like Odysseus and discusses the intersection of Plato’s ideas with the Catholic intellectual tradition.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How to Read Plato: Skepticism, Realism, and Dogmatism

• Dramatic Form: Plato's works are not treatises, but dialogues where the narrative and details matter (06:58, A).
• Skeptical Readings: Some modern interpretations dissolve Plato into skepticism, claiming we cannot know his real positions because he never speaks directly (10:50, A).
• A Middle Way: Dr. Grabowski cautions against two extremes: dogmatism (treatises-in-dialogue) and radical skepticism, advocating for a careful but trusting approach (11:40--13:29, B).

  “Plato remains hidden, but fundamentally, he is speaking to us... Authors are trying to get a message across, and sometimes that message is more explicit than others." – Dr. Frank Grabowski (12:08)

2. Virtue as the Path to Happiness

• Plato’s Ethics: Virtue brings happiness—this is "the basic premise of virtue ethics" for Plato. Even in suffering (e.g., Socrates' execution), a virtuous life is happiest. (16:29, D)

  “Virtue is the only way that you can attain [happiness]... the unjust person cannot do any actual harm to the just person.” – Dr. Brett Larson (17:24)

• Contrast to Modern Ethics: Modernity often treats ethics as utilitarian or mere constraints, not as the way to fulfillment. Plato opposes this, rooting happiness in metaphysics: living according to one’s nature. (19:17, C)

3. Education as Formation – Not Training

• Modern Reduction: Teaching is reduced to information transmission or economic training, neglecting the formation of the whole person. (28:43, A)
• Plato’s Vision: True education aims at the soul’s formation—teachers are “lovers of the soul” who guide the student toward the true, good, and beautiful. (28:43–30:51, A)

  “I had this interesting juxtaposition... I realized, like, I'm just being trained... we're never going to talk about what justice is” – Deacon Harrison Garlick (29:33)

4. The Central Role of Eros & Beauty in Education

• Love and Knowledge are Inseparable: “There is no such thing as the dispassionate pursuit of truth, because truth is beauty, and because truth is beauty, it insists on being loved.” – Dr. Frank Grabowski (33:59)
• Modern Uneroticism: Modern education is often "cold" and lacks eros (desire/love), robbing students’ natural longing to know. (38:33, A)

  “Modernity has produced a terribly unerotic education… not predicated on happiness, not predicated on love.” – Deacon Harrison Garlick (38:33)

5. Symbolic Logic vs. Socratic Logic

• Symbolic Logic’s Limits: Modern logic tools (used in programming/AI) are divorced from reality; Socratic logic tethers thinking to real-world truth and beauty. This abstraction allows claims that “artificial intelligence” is similar to human intelligence—an impoverished view of the human mind. (41:59, C)

  “Normal day to day logic… is logic in its old form—in its Socratic form. And the best place to see that is in Plato.” – Thomas Lackey (42:33)

6. The Communal and Erotic Nature of Teaching

• Teacher as Mirror: In First Alcibiades, the soul comes to self-knowledge through the “mirror” of another’s loving gaze—the teacher sees the student’s longing and calls it forth, redirecting it toward wisdom. (73:26, A)

  “The mirror of the soul is the eyes of one who loves you... the teacher’s eyes become a mirror of the student’s soul.” – Deacon Harrison Garlick (71:26)

• Communal Pursuit: “The pursuit of wisdom, the good life, is communal...not navel-gazing.” – Deacon Harrison Garlick (71:26)

7. Rhetoric and Beauty: Rhetoric Not Opposed to Philosophy

• Good Rhetoric is Needed: “Rhetoric divorced from philosophy is tyrannical... philosophy without rhetoric is impotent.” – Deacon Harrison Garlick (48:14, 50:56)
• Rhetoric as Beauty in Communication: Rhetoric and logic must come together; eloquence and beauty are part of communicating the truth. (46:00--47:46, C & A)

8. Teleology and Meaning

• Purpose of Things: Modernity has lost touch with the purpose (telos) of things, leading to meaninglessness. Classical education insists that everything—from architecture to language to virtue—has a purpose aligned with human flourishing. (57:05, A)

9. The Dangers of Materialism and Subjectivism

• Metaphysical Obstacles: Materialism and relativism undermine the possibility of self-knowledge and moral education.

  “If you put forward the proposition... that the soul is real and that’s where the highest, most divine faculty is... that’s a huge obstacle.” – Dr. Brett Larson (63:46)

10. Student and Teacher: The Reciprocity of Education

• Not All are Willing or Able: Education requires movement from both sides. A loving teacher cannot impose virtue; students must be willing participants. This reality is highlighted in the contrast between Alcibiades and Meno. (104:03, A)

  “The teacher is really an education in erotics—it’s about what is beautiful and how the soul satiates in beauty.” – Deacon Harrison Garlick (110:19)

11. Hierarchy, Elitism, and the Catholic Response

• Natural Hierarchy: Plato (and Aristotle) accept hierarchy as natural. Christianity perfects rather than destroys this by inviting all to the good life, according to their capacity. (90:11, A)

  “The Church invites everyone to participate according to their own capacities... St. Gregory: the lamb can wade, the elephant can swim.” – Deacon Harrison Garlick (91:30)

12. The Parent’s Role and Classical Schooling

• Parent as Primary Educator: The unique but limited role of parents vs. teachers; classical schooling offers the child an environment rich in eros and beauty that can spark specific loves. (99:28, C)
• Practical Reflections: Firsthand experience on the blossoming of children in a classical setting: “There’s something about seeing that and interacting with that in an environment where that can be nurtured...” – Thomas Lackey (100:40)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Reading Plato and Skepticism

  “I've even come to a realization that I think I believe in a lot of Platonic things I'm not entirely sure Plato did.” – Deacon Harrison Garlick (10:51)

• On the Unerotic Modern Classroom

  “Somehow they can make [Plato, Dante, etc.] the most unerotic, uninspiring, terrible subject matter ever.” – Deacon Harrison Garlick (39:08)

• On Artificial Intelligence

  “I hate the term ‘artificial intelligence’... it’s an oxymoron. The reason we can call it AI is because we have such a flat understanding of the intellect.” – Deacon Harrison Garlick (37:21)

• On the Mirror of the Soul

  “If I pull one of my sons aside, and I tell him, ‘You’re a good boy’, he comes to understand who he is through how I see him.” – Deacon Harrison Garlick (73:26)

• On Community and Imitation

  “You can’t really make — is it really a hobbit at all if he’s not in the Shire?” – Thomas Lackey (55:40)

• On Catholicism and Hierarchy

  “Catholicism... allows for both — hierarchy perfected by grace; everyone is invited to participate according to their capacities.” – Deacon Harrison Garlick (91:30)

• On the Teacher’s Challenge (High School vs. College)

  “High schoolers are a raging inferno of passion... the challenge isn’t to inflame them, but to direct that passion towards the true, the good, and the beautiful.” – Dr. Frank Grabowski (113:03)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [06:58] How to read Plato – dramatic form, skepticism, dogmatism
• [16:29] Virtue and Happiness in Plato
• [28:43] Plato’s vision vs. modern education
• [33:59] Knowledge and love are inseparable
• [38:33] "AI", intellect, and the loss of eros in modern education
• [41:59] Symbolic vs. Socratic logic
• [46:00-48:14] Rhetoric, beauty, and education
• [57:05] Teleology and meaning in education
• [63:46] Materialism as obstacle to self-knowledge
• [71:26] “Mirror of the soul” – teacher as the lover of the soul
• [90:11] Elitism, hierarchy, and the Catholic response
• [99:28] Parental perspective on classical education
• [104:03] Meno, reciprocity in education, virtue as teachable?
• [110:19] Erotics and training the appetites
• [113:03] High school vs. college classroom (erotics & challenge)
• [117:22] No shortcut to education; lifelong formation

Final Reflections

• The teacher’s mission is not transmission of information but soul formation—awakening love for the good, true, and beautiful.
• Modernity’s failures (materialism, subjectivism, loss of beauty/eros) undermine true education.
• The teacher–student relationship is fundamentally communal, loving, and transformative—“the teacher’s eyes are a mirror of the soul” (71:26).
• Classical, Great Books education, especially when viewed through the Catholic lens, is presented as a vital hope for forming souls who can “ascend” to the true end of education and human flourishing (118:58).

Next episode: “Sir Gawain and the Green Knight” (with guests Dr. Justin Jackson and Banish Kent).
Find resources & guides: thegreatbookspodcast.com

This summary has preserved the original language and flow of the riveting panel, offering timestamps, quotes, and a structured roadmap for listeners and those seeking deeper formation in the Great Books tradition.