Ascend – The Great Books Podcast

Episode: Plato and St. Augustine with Dr. Chad Pecknold
Hosts: Deacon Harrison Garlick (A), Adam Minihan
Guest: Dr. Chad Pecknold
Date: January 13, 2026

Overview

This episode explores the profound and complex influence of Plato on St. Augustine, especially as seen through Augustine’s Confessions. Dr. Chad Pecknold, an Augustinian scholar, joins the show to trace the historical, philosophical, and theological continuities and divergences between Platonic thought and Christian doctrine, examining both the intellectual and religious dimensions that link (and separate) the two traditions.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to St. Augustine

• Augustine’s biography:
  • Born in North Africa (354 AD), Roman imperial background, educated in rhetoric (05:42).
  • Influenced by both his Berber mother (Monica, a Christian) and Roman father.
  • Rose in Roman society as a rhetor, moving from Carthage to Milan, where he encountered Christian Platonists (06:00).
• Intellectual environment:
  • Encounters Simplicianus and Bishop Ambrose in Milan, both Christian Platonists, exposing him directly to Platonic traditions (07:37).

2. Mapping the Platonic Tradition (08:02–20:23)

• Pre-Socratics → Socrates/Plato: Search for causes and the transition from material to immaterial explanations for existence.
• Dialogue as philosophy: For Socrates and Plato, dialogue means following logic to truth—a spiritual and moral exercise.
• Platonism’s evolution:
  • First Academy (Classical Athens): Focus on metaphysics, ascent to the divine.
  • Middle Platonism: Emergence of religious, mystical, and liturgical elements—daimons as intermediaries between God and humans.
  • Late Platonism/Neoplatonism (Plotinus, Porphyry, Iamblichus): Highly religious, incorporating elements almost competitive with Christianity, deeply influential in Augustine’s era.
• Daimonology:
  • Socratic “daimon” evolves into a hierarchy of good and bad spiritual intermediaries; by late antiquity, this system looks “almost like a competitor to Christianity” (15:56).

3. Hellenistic Thought and Its Influence on Christianity (24:09–31:09)

• Thesis: Christianity cannot be divorced from its Hellenistic philosophical context—contrary to some Protestant “dehellenization” views.
• Greek metaphysical realism’s impact: Underpins the fourfold reading of Scripture and fundamental Christian doctrine.
• Philo of Alexandria: Example of Platonic thought’s influence on Jewish exegesis and metaphysics.
• The Logos: Platonic idea of the Logos as intermediary becomes explosively important for Christian theology, facilitating understanding of the Incarnation (29:33).

4. Augustine’s Platonic Conversion (31:09–50:57)

• Neoplatonism as context:
  • Plotinus = central figure; his emanationism and spiritual metaphysics directly influence Augustine’s intellectual milieu.
• Augustine’s phases:
  • Manichean → Skeptic → Encounters Platonic books via Simplicianus in Milan, which reveal to him a way of intellectual ascent to the One, i.e., God (35:08).
• Augustine’s Platonic ascent:
  • Attempts mystical union with the divine via contemplative exercises; experiences an “utterly different light.”
  • Quote:
    “I caught the fragrance, but I couldn’t feast.” (Augustine, Confessions, Book 7) – (39:48)
• Critical realization:
  • Identifies that the Platonic ascent leads to knowledge of a transcendent God, but lacks contact:
    “The Word becomes flesh in John. The Word does not become flesh in Plato... I could smell that this was God, but I couldn't touch, feel it, couldn't touch my senses because that word had not become flesh.” (Dr. Pecknold, 44:12)

5. The Role of Grace and the Will in Augustine’s Conversion (48:00–53:18)

• Intellectual conversion vs. conversion of the will:
  • Augustine recognizes that he cannot “think his way into the Church;” only by the operation of God’s grace is his will converted.
  • Quote:
    “He’s vexed by the fact that he can’t actually unite himself to Christ just by thinking... And that’s grace. And that’s why Augustine’s the doctor of grace.” (Dr. Pecknold, 51:55)
• Children’s rhyme as catalyst:
  • “Take up and read” (Tolle lege); Augustine’s conversion pivots on grace, humility, and a childlike spirit rather than pure intellect (52:00).

6. Platonic and Augustinian Anthropology (53:18–59:59)

• Tripartite soul:
  • Augustine uses the Platonic tripartite scheme (intellect, spirited, appetitive) pedagogically, aligning it with Biblical categories; yet, as Dr. Pecknold explains, Augustine also develops a distinctive anthropology rooted in the dynamic between will and intellect (54:58).
  • Quote:
    “The intellect is above the will in Augustine’s anthropology, but the will... can make the intellect a slave.” (Dr. Pecknold, 55:00)
• Passions:
  • Augustine (and Aquinas after him) sees the passions as neutral; they are intrinsically aimed at the good but can be disordered.

7. Platonic Ideas in the Divine Mind: Augustine’s Metaphysics (59:59–70:06)

• Platonic forms’ metaphysical status:
  • Augustine receives and “baptizes” the Platonic idea that forms (ideas) have existence in the divine mind (the Logos), a crucial Christian development beyond Greek philosophy (61:00).
• Plotinus’ shortcomings:
  • Dr. Pecknold explains Augustine’s critique: mediation through daimons is philosophically and religiously unsatisfactory; only the Incarnation (“true Mediator”) solves this metaphysical and existential problem.
  • Quote:
    “We need a true mediator who’s one with us. And so... Platonic mediation can't do [what Christ does].” (Dr. Pecknold, 67:40)

8. Incarnation and Resurrection: Christianity’s Answer to Platonic Longing (72:49–77:28)

• Augustinian fulfillment:
  • Incarnation as the necessary answer to Platonism’s problem of mediation; resurrection as the answer to philosophy’s problem of death.
  • Quote:
    “Platonism promises us a God who will make us happy, but only Christianity delivers.” (Dr. Pecknold, 80:15)

9. Liturgy, Theurgy, and Divine Worship (83:05–85:14)

• Theurgy in late Platonism:
  • Iamblichus and Proclus promote a “magical” approach, creating ritual to move God. Augustine and Christian tradition invert this: God gives the true liturgy, descending from heaven, enabling human ascent (84:00).
• Quote:
  • “Christianity... answers all of those religious questions that Platonism has and brings the liturgy from heaven down to earth. And that descent of divine liturgy is how we ascend.” (Dr. Pecknold, 84:30)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Augustine’s mystical ascent (Confessions):
  “I caught the fragrance, but I couldn’t feast.” — (Dr. Pecknold quoting Augustine, 39:48)

• On Platonic and Christian paths:
  “Platonism raises the desire for God but can't fulfill the hunger for God... Platonism promises us a God who will make us happy, but only Christianity delivers.” — (Dr. Pecknold, 80:15)

• Augustine’s realization:
  “The Word becomes flesh in John. The Word does not become flesh in Plato... I could smell that this was God, but I couldn't touch, feel it, couldn't touch my senses because that word had not become flesh.” — (Dr. Pecknold, 44:12)

• On grace and the limits of intellect:
  “He’s vexed by the fact that he can’t actually unite himself to Christ just by thinking... that's grace. That's why Augustine's the doctor of grace.” — (Dr. Pecknold, 51:55)

• Theurgic vs. Christian Liturgy:
  “We must create the liturgy. And Augustine's answer... is no, that's getting it backwards. We actually can only receive the true religion from God.” — (Dr. Pecknold, 84:00)

Structuring Key Segments (Timestamps)

• Augustine’s biography & background (05:42–07:37)
• Platonic lineage & impact on Christianity (08:02–23:49)
• Hellenistic thought’s mark on Christianity (24:09–31:09)
• Augustine’s Platonic conversion & mystical experience (35:08–47:36)
• Anthropology: will, intellect, passions (53:18–59:59)
• Platonic ideas & mediation (61:00–70:06)
• Incarnation & Resurrection: Philosophy’s fulfillment (72:49–77:28)
• Liturgy, theurgy, and true worship (83:05–85:14)

Final Thoughts

• Harmony and tension: Augustine positions Platonism as the “closest philosophical approximation” to Christianity—affirming its truths but integrating and correcting it through Christ, the true Mediator.
• Promise and fulfillment: Platonism stirs the heart for union with the divine; Christianity alone provides the means to achieve it.
• Enduring relevance: These questions—about mediation, transformation, liturgy—remain vital for readers of both Plato and Augustine today.

For further reading, Dr. Pecknold suggests his latest book, “Fire on the Altar,” and recommends Augustine’s “On the Free Choice of the Will” for deeper engagement with Augustine’s anthropology.