Ascend - The Great Books Podcast
Episode: Plato’s Apology, Part I with Fr. Justin Brophy, OP
Release Date: September 16, 2025
Hosts: Deacon Harrison Garlick & Adam Minihan
Guest: Fr. Christopher Justin Brophy, OP
Episode Overview
This episode launches a two-part exploration of Plato’s Apology, focusing on the dramatic trial and defense of Socrates. Deacon Harrison Garlick and Adam Minihan are joined by Fr. Justin Brophy, OP, to unpack themes of piety, philosophical inquiry, Socratic irony, and the political tensions between philosophy and the city. The conversation places Apology in its historical and dramatic context, delving into the significance of Socrates as a paradigm for the “philosopher in the polis” and as a perennial figure for both Western philosophy and Christian thought.
Fr. Brophy, a Dominican and political theory professor, brings particular insight into the dialogue’s setting, Socrates’ confrontation with public opinion, the pedagogical purpose of the text, and its ongoing relevance for questions about education, politics, and the cultivation of virtue.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Importance and Setting of Apology
- Apology is emphasized as “one of the most important speeches in all of Western canon” (A, 01:00).
- Context: Set at the trial of Socrates in 399 BC, after the devastation of the Peloponnesian War and political upheaval in Athens (A, 22:28).
- The hosts situate Apology as part of their slow-reading Great Books podcast progression, creating a bridge from earlier Greek dramatists to Plato.
2. Platonic Dialogues as Dramatic, Not Just Philosophical
- Fr. Brophy explains that Plato’s works are “not just cold philosophical treatises—they’re dramatic works of art” (B, 48:06).
- Reading Plato requires attention to “everything that’s going on in the drama… sometimes what’s unsaid is just as important as what’s being said” (B, 48:21).
- Socratic irony and narrative structure make these texts continually rewarding on re-reading. “You still get something new out of it… that’s the beauty of some of these texts” (B, 15:39).
3. Why Read the Great Books?
- Fr. Brophy shares how great books “can change your soul, if you take them seriously” (B, 07:51).
- He stresses the existential stakes for students: “This is a privileged opportunity to think about what your life is going to mean… to learn from the experiences of those who have gone before” (B, 08:54).
- Deacon Garlick and Fr. Brophy emphasize the power of books to “reclaim your intellect and understand the origin of the ideas that shape our world” (Podcast intro/context).
4. Socrates, Alcibiades, and Political Danger
- Alcibiades is introduced as a pivotal, larger-than-life figure—“a real live Achilles living in Athens”—whose fate intertwines with Socrates’ (A, 23:50).
- Socrates is dangerous to the city: “Philosophy isn’t locking oneself in a room… it forces you to reevaluate not only yourself, but also the regime… and that can be dangerous” (B, 17:49).
- Athens’ accusation of “corrupting the youth” likely alludes to Alcibiades as Exhibit A—a student whose ambition and actions destabilized Athens (B, 21:09).
5. The Role of Comedy and Satire: Aristophanes’ Clouds
- The long shadow of Aristophanes’ comic portrayal of Socrates as an impious sophist looms over the trial (A, 33:52; B, 34:17).
- Fr. Brophy: The caricature “has colored the minds of the assembly… they’re not actually putting the real Socrates on trial, but the caricature from the Clouds” (B, 37:51).
- The connection between impiety, political instability, and the threat to the polis is made explicit, using the example of Clouds (A, 40:48).
- “Impiety brings political instability… this is why Socrates is a problem for Athens” (A, 40:48).
6. Socrates’ Defense: Old vs. New Accusations
- Socrates distinguishes “older accusations” (the reputational slander from comedy and rumor) from the formal charges of impiety and corrupting youth (A, 29:49; 54:00).
- Charges keep shifting: disbelief in gods, teaching new gods, making the weaker argument the stronger, corrupting youth.
- The role of Meletus, a poet, as prosecutor, deepens the theme of poetry vs. philosophy as rival educators (A, 43:08; 45:06).
7. Philosophy vs. Sophistry
- Socrates claims “I’ve never charged a fee,” marking a divide from the sophists, whose rhetoric is sold for gain with no concern for truth (B, 53:28).
- “Sophists are people who make the weaker speech the stronger… not concerned with truth, just effectiveness” (B, 53:28).
- The inability of the crowd to distinguish between philosopher and sophist is a dangerous confusion (A, 55:48).
8. The Oracle at Delphi and Socratic Wisdom
- Socrates references the Delphic oracle’s pronouncement that he is wisest because he knows that he does not know (A, 59:55; 65:25).
- Socratic humility: “He claims to possess a certain kind of wisdom, but then also claims… human wisdom is of little account” (B, 66:01).
- “It’s because I have seen something of the true, of the good, of the beautiful, I know that it is too great for anyone to possess in its entirety” (B, 67:11).
- The narrative of the “Socratic labor”—testing the wisdom of politicians, poets, craftsmen (A, 71:56)—is a model of philosophical inquiry and an implicit critique of modern technē/scientism (A, 75:49; B, 75:49).
9. The Pedagogy and Purpose of the Speech
- Is Socrates’ aim to win? To save his own life? Or to be a witness to the truth? “What is the purpose of Socrates’ speech?” (A, 59:55; 71:56; 105:52).
- Socratic pedagogy operates by leading the audience as far as they can be led—sometimes only as far as realizing they don’t know (B, 103:54).
10. The Tension Between Philosophy and the Regime
- The dialogue replays the question of whether a society “can survive someone like Socrates or someone like Christ arising” (A, 20:56).
- Socrates’ method exposes the ignorance of civic leaders, and the philosopher’s presence constitutes a standing challenge to the regime.
- Brophy: “There is a reason they kill Socrates. Even if you sympathize with him, some of the reasons are good. He upsets the apple cart” (B, 94:00).
- The end of the episode touches on the antagonism between democracy (the demos) and the magnanimous individual—the “leveling” tendency that tears down its great men (A, 110:29; B, 110:38).
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
On the Risk of Reading Great Books
- “Books are very dangerous things—if you take them seriously, they may change your soul.”
— Fr. Brophy (07:51)
On Socratic Irony
- “He claims to possess a certain kind of wisdom… but then also claims at the same time that human wisdom is of little account.”
— Fr. Brophy (66:01)
On the Athenian Mindset and Piety
- “Piety in a lot of ways gives structure to the cosmos… it’s kind of what I owe.”
— A (43:08)
On Philosophy’s Threat to the City
- “Philosophy isn’t… in an ivory tower… it makes you question the principles of law and your culture. And that can be dangerous.”
— Fr. Brophy (17:49)
On Old and New Accusations
- “What they’re putting on trial is the caricature that Aristophanes put forward. They’re not actually putting the real Socrates on trial.”
— Fr. Brophy (37:51)
On Socrates’ Poverty and Purpose
- “If I wanted to be rich, I could… I am poor, and I am poor because I’m serving the God.”
— Fr. Brophy (78:16)
On Democratic Levelling of Great Men
- “The slander and envy of many people has destroyed many good men and will… continue to do so… [Democracy] ultimately leads to a kind of mediocrity because we can’t tolerate anybody who stands above the others.”
— Fr. Brophy (110:38)
On Socratic Pedagogy
- “Socrates can only take things as far as his interlocutor can take them… the dialogues are not treatises.”
— A (105:52)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 03:08 – Fr. Brophy’s work on Plato’s Symposium and its political context
- 07:51 – “Books are dangerous things…”: The purpose of Great Books education
- 14:00 – Why Plato, not just Aristotle? Fr. Brophy’s conversion through reading Plato
- 17:49 – Why would a society want to “kill” a philosopher?
- 22:28 – Historical context: Alcibiades, Peloponnesian War, and the charges against Socrates
- 33:52 – How Aristophanes’ Clouds influences public perception of Socrates
- 40:48 – Ancient vs. modern ideas of piety, and the political stakes of “impiety”
- 53:28 – Socrates’ distinction from the sophists: the question of charging a fee
- 65:25 – The oracle at Delphi, Socratic wisdom, and “knowing that I do not know”
- 71:56 – Socrates’ “labors”: testing statesmen, poets, and craftsmen
- 78:16 – Socrates’ poverty as evidence of his philosophical integrity
- 81:37 – “Is Apology a trial of philosophy itself?”
- 90:45 – Socrates’ “gadfly” method and the political threat he poses
- 110:29 – The antagonism between democracy and the “magnanimous man”
Tone and Style
The tone is approachable but deeply engaged, alternating between friendly banter, rigorous philosophical inquiry, and accessible explanations. Humor and humility abound, with frequent self-reflection and references to both ancient and modern parallels. Both guest and hosts are careful to anchor observations in the text, to connect philosophical concepts to lived experience, and to model close reading for listeners.
Summary Takeaways
- Plato’s Apology is a pivotal text for understanding the intersection of philosophy, politics, religion, and education in the Western tradition.
- The tension between the philosopher and the city is perennial; Socrates stands as a model of the dangers and necessity of questioning the status quo.
- The dialogue’s structure, dramatic elements, and the personalities of its interlocutors are as important as its formal arguments.
- The charges against Socrates are both specific to Athens’ historical situation and enduring symbols of the challenges facing anyone who pursues truth in the face of popular opinion.
- Socratic pedagogy—“the wisdom of knowing you don’t know”—remains a radical and dangerous stance, capable of transforming souls and societies alike.
For Further Exploration
- Fr. Brophy’s publications and work at cjbrophy.com
- Resources at thegreatbookspodcast.com
For next week: The second half of Apology, focusing on Socrates’ defense, the meaning of death, and the ultimate verdict.