Ascend: The Great Books Podcast
Episode: Plato's Apology Part II with Fr. Justin Brophy, OP
September 23, 2025
Hosts: Deacon Harrison Garlick & Adam Minihan
Guest: Fr. Justin Brophy, OP
Episode Overview
This episode continues a deep dive into Plato’s Apology, exploring the second half of Socrates’ defense at his trial. Deacon Harrison Garlick and Fr. Justin Brophy, OP, focus on Socratic themes of death, piety, the meaning of philosophy, and the reality of the soul. The conversation draws on Catholic intellectual tradition, early Christian interpretations (notably St. Justin Martyr), and the enduring influence of Socratic thought in Western civilization. The tone is thoughtful, playful, and often admiring of Plato’s rhetorical brilliance.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. St. Justin Martyr and the Platonic Pursuit of Truth
[03:45–08:59]
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St. Justin Martyr’s Significance: Fr. Brophy highlights Justin as the first saint to systematically reconcile faith and reason. He sought philosophical wisdom as a way of life, saw Plato’s account of the immaterial as revelatory, and linked Platonic pursuit of truth directly to the Logos (Word) made flesh in Christ.
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Quote:
"For St. Justin, he thinks more in terms of the seed of the Logos... he really wants to say that Socrates is saved, that he's searching for Christ even though he doesn't completely know it." – Fr. Brophy [07:02]
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Socrates as "Righteous Pagan": Both agree that Socrates exemplifies living according to nature as best as possible, making him a perennial model even admired by medieval humanists.
2. Fear of Death and Moral Courage
[10:38–18:30]
- Socrates’ Stand: The dialogue shifts to 28B–C in the Apology, where Socrates refuses to let fear of death move him from his divine calling, focusing on justice and piety rather than personal safety.
- Achilles Analogy:
"Let's take, you know, who is the ancient Greek superstar... That's Achilles. And you know what Achilles did? Achilles knew that if he avenged Patroclus, he would die. But death wasn't important to him. What was important to him is that he did what he had to do." – Fr. Brophy [11:53]
- Socrates uses Homeric heroes rhetorically to justify his own resolve; the hosts reflect on writing in personal copies of the text as a means to intellectual and moral maturation.
3. The Unknown of Death & Argument from Uncertainty
[20:02–22:31]
- Socrates posits that death is an unknown and could be the greatest blessing—therefore, fearing it is irrational.
- Fr. Brophy pushes back: uncertainty naturally brings trepidation, but Socrates’ focus is on choosing justice over unjust self-preservation.
4. Philosophy as a Divine Vocation
[23:06–27:25]
- Primary Allegiance:
"I will obey the God rather than you." – Socrates (quoted by Deacon Garlick) [29D, ~23:06]
- Nature of Philosophy: Fr. Brophy & Garlick stress that, for Socrates, philosophy is not academic hair-splitting but the integrated search for virtue and the good life—distinct from modern conceptions.
- Socrates’ self-understanding as called by God, and his refusal to separate intellect and practice, is emphasized.
5. Socratic Service to the God – Answering the Euthyphro
[39:33–43:34]
- Socrates frames himself as providing benefit not to the gods, but to his fellow citizens through service to the divine; his piety is transformative for Athens, not for the gods themselves.
- Fr. Brophy suggests Socrates’ implicit monotheism alters traditional dilemmas about piety (the Euthyphro Dilemma).
6. The Immaterial Soul – A Novelty in the Greek Tradition
[34:12–36:22]
- Socrates introduces a more developed concept of the soul (psyche) as the true self—a notion that isn’t fully present in Homer or earlier Greek works, making it a radical innovation.
- Justice, for Socrates, is about rightly ordering the soul, and wrongdoing scars the soul, not just the body or reputation.
7. Political Life, Philosophy, and the Polis
[59:50–64:54]
- Socrates argues that public, political life would have corrupted him or led to his premature death, exemplifying the tension between philosophy and the city/state.
- Fr. Brophy insists there always needs to be a philosopher-gadfly to challenge and improve the polis, despite the risk.
8. Democratic Regime vs. The Great-Souled Man
[66:07–74:20]
- The hosts contrast the great soul of Socrates and the mediocrity that can arise in democracy—Plato’s complex stance on democracy allows for philosophical life but also leads to peril for the philosopher.
- Quote:
"The difference is that he's an older man and [his followers are] adolescent... They're going to be more ferocious in their prosecution." – Fr. Brophy [96:39]
9. Conviction, Death Penalty, and Socratic Humor
[87:02–91:01]
- Socrates’ suggestion that he should be rewarded with free meals as an Olympic victor (rather than punished) is highlighted as the episode’s comedic apex, showing his wit and further provoking the jury to anger.
- The increased margin voting for the death penalty after this joke is discussed.
- Quote:
"No, I should be welcomed like an Olympic champion and fed and, you know, received into the halls of glory." – Deacon Garlick [88:36]
Notable Quotes and Moments with Timestamps
- On St. Justin Martyr and the Pursuit of Logos [03:45]
"He wants to show that the true Philosopher comes to knowledge of Jesus Christ and lives according to the way that is beautiful." – Fr. Brophy
- On the Threat of Socrates to the Polis [28:59]
"Socrates is more of a threat because if you take him seriously, he forces you to change your approach, your day to day approach..." – Fr. Brophy
- On Being Harmed by Injustice [48:32]
"For I do not think it is permitted that a better man may be harmed by a worse man." – Socrates (quoted by Garlick) "Fear not the man who can harm the body, but the one who can harm the soul." – Fr. Brophy (paraphrasing Christ)
- On The Unexamined Life [38A, 93:38]
"The unexamined life is not worth living." – Socrates (quoted in discussion)
- Prophecy of Further Critics After Socrates' Death [96:39]
"There will be more who will refute you whom I have now been holding back." – Socrates (quoted by Fr. Brophy)
- On Hope and Divine Providence [105:49]
"A good man cannot be harmed either in life or in death, and that his affairs are not neglected by the gods." – Socrates (quoted by Garlick)
- On Death and Divine Mystery [109:49]
"Now the hour to part has come. I go to die, you go to live. Which of us goes to the better lot is known to no one except the God." – Socrates (read by Garlick)
Thematic Segments & Timestamps
- Introduction, Great Books & Catholic Engagement [00:00–03:45]
- Justin Martyr, Faith and Reason; Plato’s Influence [03:45–09:28]
- Death, Courage, and the Achilles Analogy [10:38–16:15]
- Socratic Philosophy: Virtue over Death [23:06–29:28]
- The Reality of the Soul, Piety, Service to the God [34:12–42:43]
- Socrates and the Polis: Political Implications [59:50–64:54]
- Great-Souled Man vs. Democracy, Modern Parallels [66:07–74:20]
- The Death Sentence, Socratic Humor, and Legacy [87:02–96:39]
- The Apology’s Enduring Relevance for the Modern Reader [110:06–113:37]
Recommendations & Resources
- Beginner Plato Texts: Start with the Apology—short, accessible, and rich in content.
- St. Justin Martyr:
- Martyrdom of St. Justin (June 1 reading in Office of Readings)
- First and Second Apologies (Ancient Christian Writers series)
- Dialogue with Trypho for conversion story and Platonic-Christian synthesis.
- Practice: Write notes in your texts; reflect on moral invitations, not just intellectual puzzles.
Final Reflections
- The dialogue ends in hope, faith in divine justice, and Socratic confidence that the soul is untouched by external harm.
- Both hosts stress the transformative potential of great books, not just as intellectual fodder but as invitations to a better life:
"It's the danger of great books." – Fr. Brophy [111:32]
Next episode: Plato’s Crito. Read along with the hosts as Ascend continues exploring the Great Books in light of reason and faith.
For resources, study guides, and more, visit thegreatbookspodcast.com.