Ascend – The Great Books Podcast

Episode: Plato's Influence on St. Boethius with Dr. Thomas Ward
Hosts: Deacon Harrison Garlick & Adam Minihan
Guest: Dr. Thomas Ward (Baylor University)
Date: January 20, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode of Ascend delves deep into the life, works, and enduring influence of St. Boethius, particularly through the lens of Platonic thought. Hosts Deacon Harrison Garlick and Adam Minihan are joined by Dr. Thomas Ward, a medieval philosophy specialist, to explore how Plato’s philosophy—directly and through Neoplatonic intermediaries—shapes Boethius’ famous Consolation of Philosophy and his foundational role in medieval intellectual life. Together, they break down how Boethius bridges the worlds of antiquity and the Middle Ages, and why his assimilation of Platonic ideas still matters for readers—and the Catholic intellectual tradition—today.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was St. Boethius? (04:16–07:49)

Boethius’ Life & Role
- Roman senator under Ostrogothic rule, wrongly accused and executed in 524.
- Wrote Consolation of Philosophy while awaiting death.
- Massive ambition: to translate and comment on Plato's and Aristotle’s works for Latin audiences.
- His Consolation of Philosophy became a gateway to the Middle Ages’ “great conversation.”
- “It’s hard to overstate his influence on later philosophy and theology, especially in what we call the Scholastic period…” (07:09, Ward)
Preserver & Synthesizer
- Preserved logical works fundamental to the trivium through the Middle Ages.
- Sought to synthesize Plato and Aristotle (viewed as not strictly opposed).
- Wrote commentaries primarily on Aristotle, some theological tractates, and left a lasting mark on the liberal arts.

2. Boethius: Last Roman, First Scholastic (07:49–10:39)

Boethius is often dubbed “the last of the Romans and the first of the Scholastics.” His use of Aristotelian methods anticipates scholasticism (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas), especially in applying philosophical rigor to theological questions.
“Boethius was doing this in the 6th century, anticipating the kinds of work that we find say in St. Thomas Aquinas…” (07:55, Ward)
Logic-oriented precision and fine-grained analysis became his legacy to medieval thinkers.

3. Boethius & The Liberal Arts (09:47–11:18)

His importance stretches beyond philosophy to the entire liberal arts tradition—including the mathematical treatment of music.
- “I was very unaware of the liberal arts side...even particularly like music, that how music was done in the West, that a lot of this comes down to Boethius…” (09:47, Garlick)
C.S. Lewis: Reading Boethius enculturates the mind into medieval aesthetics and values.

4. The Accessibility and Power of Consolation of Philosophy (11:18–14:47)

Consolation is a poetic and philosophical masterpiece: engaging, beautiful, and introspective.
- Students and readers, both ancient and modern, relate to the personal struggle portrayed.
- Its dramatic setting makes philosophy “alive.”
“Some of the teachings...are very challenging, like literally hard to believe because they're so good.” (12:02, Ward)
The text invites perennial return, suitable for lifelong engagement.

5. What Platonic Texts Did Boethius Actually Have? (14:47–16:54)

Direct evidence for which Platonic dialogues Boethius accessed is unclear.
- “There's a sort of Platonic aura about the book... whether he actually had eyes on that, I don't know.” (14:47, Ward)
Boethius may have known at least the Republic, possibly the Phaedo, Meno, and Symposium, but Platonic ideas likely also arrived through Neoplatonist tradition (Proclus, Plotinus, Porphyry).

6. Neoplatonism & Lady Philosophy (16:54–18:21)

The “Platonic aura” may derive as much from philosophical culture and intermediaries (Neoplatonists) as from Plato himself.
Lady Philosophy personifies the all-embracing tradition—neither strictly Stoic nor Aristotelian, but “Philosophy” as such, strongly Platonic at root.
- “Philosophy is broadly Platonic philosophy, even if this or that doctrine can't be tied down to a specific text.” (18:21, Ward)

7. The Dialogic Structure and Platonic Resonances (18:21–23:53)

Consolation of Philosophy resembles a Platonic dialogue: Boethius (the suffering prisoner) meets Lady Philosophy (his therapist and guide).
- Lady Philosophy echoes Diotima of Symposium and, structurally, Socratic dialogues.
The text is deeply personal and self-critical, embodying humility and the Platonic/Socratic method of spiritual ascent through dialogue.
- “It's so well written that it's easy to forget that Lady Philosophy is just as much a part of Boethius the author's mind as Boethius the character.” (21:04, Ward)

8. The Pedagogical Method: Destruction and Construction (24:31–28:28)

Lady Philosophy’s method has two phases:
1. Destructive: Disenchantment from fortune’s false goods (Stoic “apathy”).
2. Constructive: Gradual ascent to the “summum bonum”—the Good, in Platonic terms.
- Quote: “In that constructive program, I think, is when we get the more Platonic elements of earthly things as shadows, of heavenly things, of the good as standing above all the absolute highest thing…” (27:27, Ward)
This ascent echoes both the structure of Platonic dialectic and the “ladder of love” from Symposium.

9. The Good, God, and Beatitude: Synthesizing Plato & Christianity (31:53–38:20)

Consolation identifies God with the Platonic Good, moving beyond Plato’s ambivalence.
- Quote: “So we get a kind of identification of the good with God by building up from the incomplete goods that people in fact seek and sort of pointing beyond those to the complete good that they're truly seeking...” (34:32, Ward)
Happiness/beatitude is found by participating in God-as-the-good (“theosis”/divinization).
Boethius reframes eros/desire: finite goods point upward toward infinite beatitude in God—the ultimate closure of the Platonic and Christian longing.

10. Virtue, Power, and the Paradox of the Unjust (38:20–46:59)

Boethius, echoing Republic and Gorgias, argues that true power and happiness belong only to the virtuous; the wicked are actually weak, pitiable, and enslaved by their vices.
- “If you buy that first premise about the good as that which everyone seeks, then the logic kind of follows. But it's one thing to follow the logic, and it's another thing to learn how to actually see the world that way.” (40:47, Ward)
These counterintuitive claims about justice, suffering, and tyranny are at the heart of both Platonic and Christian ethics.

11. Literary Structure—Prose & Poetic Passages (45:11–46:59)

Boethius integrates debate and poetry, engaging both intellect and affections.
- “I think part of what's going on with the poetry is sort of effort to form both mind and heart, for lack of a better term... The poetry does that through beauty, and the prose sections do it through dialectic.” (45:11, Ward)
This echoes Plato’s own myth-making and dramatization in his dialogues.

12. The Nature of Evil: Privation and Becoming More or Less Than Human (48:15–50:38)

Boethius (drawing on Neoplatonist corrections) defines evil as privation, non-being—a lack of real existence.
- “The idea is that to be good is to be complete... So insofar as we are falling short of our true nature, to that extent we're evil. But to the extent that we exist at all as some kind of thing...we're good.” (48:40, Ward)
A motif throughout: humans are always becoming either more divine (through virtue/happiness) or less than human (through vice).
- “There is this weird thing about human beings. Yeah, we’re creatures on the move one way or another.” (50:35, Ward)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Boethius’ Influence:
“It’s hard to overstate his influence on later philosophy and theology, especially in what we call the Scholastic period of the 13th and 14th centuries and even before that.” (07:09, Dr. Ward)
On Boethius’ Suffering & Humility:
“He portrays himself as in a really bad way. Having lost sight of philosophy, Lady Philosophy complains that she no longer holds the seat of honor in his mind... but as Boethius’s cure sort of takes hold, he becomes more and more eager to engage in the dialectic.” (20:34–23:53, Dr. Ward)
On Deconstruction & Socratic Method:
“There has to be this beautiful deconstruction... The first thing Socrates does is show Alcibiades that he doesn’t really know. Until [the student] is just frustrated, [and] Socrates is like, 'Well, I’m not telling you. We’re moving on.'” (28:28, Garlick)
On the Good and Beatitude:
“We get this idea that the good that everyone seeks really is the conjunction of all these good things. Really, only by having all of these can we be truly happy. And it turns out the thing that has all of these attributes is divine, is God himself.” (34:05, Ward)
On Power & Happiness:
“Only the good are powerful and only the wicked are weak. So we get this... and that’s one of the hard parts that students have trouble with because it seems so counterintuitive.” (39:32, Ward)
On Evil as Privation & Human Nature:
“To be good is to be complete... So insofar as we are falling short of our true nature, to that extent, we’re evil... humans are always becoming something more than human or something less than human.” (48:15–50:38, Ward)

Timestamps for Important Segments

00:00—04:16: Introduction to Boethius & Dr. Ward
04:16—07:49: Boethius’ biography and foundational impact
07:49—10:39: Last Roman/first Scholastic, methods
10:39—14:47: Boethius in the medieval liberal arts
14:47—16:54: What Platonic works could Boethius access?
16:54—18:21: Platonic and Neoplatonic influences
18:21—23:53: Consolation’s dramatic, dialogical structure
24:31—28:28: Lady Philosophy’s method; parallels with Plato
28:28—31:53: Socratic technique, deconstruction, and self-knowledge
31:53—38:20: The Good, God, and Beatitude: synthesis
38:20—46:59: Virtue, power, and the paradox of injustice
45:11—46:59: Prose/poetry hybrid; forming intellect & will
48:15—50:38: The nature of evil, privation, becoming
53:18—54:10: Conclusion and next episodes

Final Thoughts

Boethius as Eclectic, Not Sectarian: He does not conform rigidly to any school but aims to “present all of philosophy”—yet the Platonic core shines through even when filtered through later traditions.
Boethius for Today: The episode reiterates the value of reading Boethius not just as a historical figure but as a perennial guide in the formation of intellect and character for all—students and lifelong learners alike.

Ascend – The Great Books Podcast

Episode: Plato's Influence on St. Boethius with Dr. Thomas Ward
Hosts: Deacon Harrison Garlick & Adam Minihan
Guest: Dr. Thomas Ward (Baylor University)
Date: January 20, 2026

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was St. Boethius? (04:16–07:49)

Boethius’ Life & Role
- Roman senator under Ostrogothic rule, wrongly accused and executed in 524.
- Wrote Consolation of Philosophy while awaiting death.
- Massive ambition: to translate and comment on Plato's and Aristotle’s works for Latin audiences.
- His Consolation of Philosophy became a gateway to the Middle Ages’ “great conversation.”
- “It’s hard to overstate his influence on later philosophy and theology, especially in what we call the Scholastic period…” (07:09, Ward)
Preserver & Synthesizer
- Preserved logical works fundamental to the trivium through the Middle Ages.
- Sought to synthesize Plato and Aristotle (viewed as not strictly opposed).
- Wrote commentaries primarily on Aristotle, some theological tractates, and left a lasting mark on the liberal arts.

2. Boethius: Last Roman, First Scholastic (07:49–10:39)

Boethius is often dubbed “the last of the Romans and the first of the Scholastics.” His use of Aristotelian methods anticipates scholasticism (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas), especially in applying philosophical rigor to theological questions.
“Boethius was doing this in the 6th century, anticipating the kinds of work that we find say in St. Thomas Aquinas…” (07:55, Ward)
Logic-oriented precision and fine-grained analysis became his legacy to medieval thinkers.

3. Boethius & The Liberal Arts (09:47–11:18)

His importance stretches beyond philosophy to the entire liberal arts tradition—including the mathematical treatment of music.
- “I was very unaware of the liberal arts side...even particularly like music, that how music was done in the West, that a lot of this comes down to Boethius…” (09:47, Garlick)
C.S. Lewis: Reading Boethius enculturates the mind into medieval aesthetics and values.

4. The Accessibility and Power of Consolation of Philosophy (11:18–14:47)

Consolation is a poetic and philosophical masterpiece: engaging, beautiful, and introspective.
- Students and readers, both ancient and modern, relate to the personal struggle portrayed.
- Its dramatic setting makes philosophy “alive.”
“Some of the teachings...are very challenging, like literally hard to believe because they're so good.” (12:02, Ward)
The text invites perennial return, suitable for lifelong engagement.

5. What Platonic Texts Did Boethius Actually Have? (14:47–16:54)

Direct evidence for which Platonic dialogues Boethius accessed is unclear.
- “There's a sort of Platonic aura about the book... whether he actually had eyes on that, I don't know.” (14:47, Ward)
Boethius may have known at least the Republic, possibly the Phaedo, Meno, and Symposium, but Platonic ideas likely also arrived through Neoplatonist tradition (Proclus, Plotinus, Porphyry).

6. Neoplatonism & Lady Philosophy (16:54–18:21)

The “Platonic aura” may derive as much from philosophical culture and intermediaries (Neoplatonists) as from Plato himself.
Lady Philosophy personifies the all-embracing tradition—neither strictly Stoic nor Aristotelian, but “Philosophy” as such, strongly Platonic at root.
- “Philosophy is broadly Platonic philosophy, even if this or that doctrine can't be tied down to a specific text.” (18:21, Ward)

7. The Dialogic Structure and Platonic Resonances (18:21–23:53)

Consolation of Philosophy resembles a Platonic dialogue: Boethius (the suffering prisoner) meets Lady Philosophy (his therapist and guide).
- Lady Philosophy echoes Diotima of Symposium and, structurally, Socratic dialogues.
The text is deeply personal and self-critical, embodying humility and the Platonic/Socratic method of spiritual ascent through dialogue.
- “It's so well written that it's easy to forget that Lady Philosophy is just as much a part of Boethius the author's mind as Boethius the character.” (21:04, Ward)

8. The Pedagogical Method: Destruction and Construction (24:31–28:28)

Lady Philosophy’s method has two phases:
1. Destructive: Disenchantment from fortune’s false goods (Stoic “apathy”).
2. Constructive: Gradual ascent to the “summum bonum”—the Good, in Platonic terms.
- Quote: “In that constructive program, I think, is when we get the more Platonic elements of earthly things as shadows, of heavenly things, of the good as standing above all the absolute highest thing…” (27:27, Ward)
This ascent echoes both the structure of Platonic dialectic and the “ladder of love” from Symposium.

9. The Good, God, and Beatitude: Synthesizing Plato & Christianity (31:53–38:20)

Consolation identifies God with the Platonic Good, moving beyond Plato’s ambivalence.
- Quote: “So we get a kind of identification of the good with God by building up from the incomplete goods that people in fact seek and sort of pointing beyond those to the complete good that they're truly seeking...” (34:32, Ward)
Happiness/beatitude is found by participating in God-as-the-good (“theosis”/divinization).
Boethius reframes eros/desire: finite goods point upward toward infinite beatitude in God—the ultimate closure of the Platonic and Christian longing.

10. Virtue, Power, and the Paradox of the Unjust (38:20–46:59)

Boethius, echoing Republic and Gorgias, argues that true power and happiness belong only to the virtuous; the wicked are actually weak, pitiable, and enslaved by their vices.
- “If you buy that first premise about the good as that which everyone seeks, then the logic kind of follows. But it's one thing to follow the logic, and it's another thing to learn how to actually see the world that way.” (40:47, Ward)
These counterintuitive claims about justice, suffering, and tyranny are at the heart of both Platonic and Christian ethics.

11. Literary Structure—Prose & Poetic Passages (45:11–46:59)

Boethius integrates debate and poetry, engaging both intellect and affections.
- “I think part of what's going on with the poetry is sort of effort to form both mind and heart, for lack of a better term... The poetry does that through beauty, and the prose sections do it through dialectic.” (45:11, Ward)
This echoes Plato’s own myth-making and dramatization in his dialogues.

12. The Nature of Evil: Privation and Becoming More or Less Than Human (48:15–50:38)

Boethius (drawing on Neoplatonist corrections) defines evil as privation, non-being—a lack of real existence.
- “The idea is that to be good is to be complete... So insofar as we are falling short of our true nature, to that extent we're evil. But to the extent that we exist at all as some kind of thing...we're good.” (48:40, Ward)
A motif throughout: humans are always becoming either more divine (through virtue/happiness) or less than human (through vice).
- “There is this weird thing about human beings. Yeah, we’re creatures on the move one way or another.” (50:35, Ward)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Boethius’ Influence:
“It’s hard to overstate his influence on later philosophy and theology, especially in what we call the Scholastic period of the 13th and 14th centuries and even before that.” (07:09, Dr. Ward)
On Boethius’ Suffering & Humility:
“He portrays himself as in a really bad way. Having lost sight of philosophy, Lady Philosophy complains that she no longer holds the seat of honor in his mind... but as Boethius’s cure sort of takes hold, he becomes more and more eager to engage in the dialectic.” (20:34–23:53, Dr. Ward)
On Deconstruction & Socratic Method:
“There has to be this beautiful deconstruction... The first thing Socrates does is show Alcibiades that he doesn’t really know. Until [the student] is just frustrated, [and] Socrates is like, 'Well, I’m not telling you. We’re moving on.'” (28:28, Garlick)
On the Good and Beatitude:
“We get this idea that the good that everyone seeks really is the conjunction of all these good things. Really, only by having all of these can we be truly happy. And it turns out the thing that has all of these attributes is divine, is God himself.” (34:05, Ward)
On Power & Happiness:
“Only the good are powerful and only the wicked are weak. So we get this... and that’s one of the hard parts that students have trouble with because it seems so counterintuitive.” (39:32, Ward)
On Evil as Privation & Human Nature:
“To be good is to be complete... So insofar as we are falling short of our true nature, to that extent, we’re evil... humans are always becoming something more than human or something less than human.” (48:15–50:38, Ward)

Timestamps for Important Segments

00:00—04:16: Introduction to Boethius & Dr. Ward
04:16—07:49: Boethius’ biography and foundational impact
07:49—10:39: Last Roman/first Scholastic, methods
10:39—14:47: Boethius in the medieval liberal arts
14:47—16:54: What Platonic works could Boethius access?
16:54—18:21: Platonic and Neoplatonic influences
18:21—23:53: Consolation’s dramatic, dialogical structure
24:31—28:28: Lady Philosophy’s method; parallels with Plato
28:28—31:53: Socratic technique, deconstruction, and self-knowledge
31:53—38:20: The Good, God, and Beatitude: synthesis
38:20—46:59: Virtue, power, and the paradox of injustice
45:11—46:59: Prose/poetry hybrid; forming intellect & will
48:15—50:38: The nature of evil, privation, becoming
53:18—54:10: Conclusion and next episodes

Final Thoughts

Boethius as Eclectic, Not Sectarian: He does not conform rigidly to any school but aims to “present all of philosophy”—yet the Platonic core shines through even when filtered through later traditions.
Boethius for Today: The episode reiterates the value of reading Boethius not just as a historical figure but as a perennial guide in the formation of intellect and character for all—students and lifelong learners alike.

Plato's Influence on St. Boethius with Dr. Thomas Ward

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Summary

Ascend – The Great Books Podcast

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was St. Boethius? (04:16–07:49)

2. Boethius: Last Roman, First Scholastic (07:49–10:39)

3. Boethius & The Liberal Arts (09:47–11:18)

4. The Accessibility and Power of Consolation of Philosophy (11:18–14:47)

5. What Platonic Texts Did Boethius Actually Have? (14:47–16:54)

6. Neoplatonism & Lady Philosophy (16:54–18:21)

7. The Dialogic Structure and Platonic Resonances (18:21–23:53)

8. The Pedagogical Method: Destruction and Construction (24:31–28:28)

9. The Good, God, and Beatitude: Synthesizing Plato & Christianity (31:53–38:20)

10. Virtue, Power, and the Paradox of the Unjust (38:20–46:59)

11. Literary Structure—Prose & Poetic Passages (45:11–46:59)

12. The Nature of Evil: Privation and Becoming More or Less Than Human (48:15–50:38)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Important Segments

Final Thoughts

Further Reading & Resources

Summary

Ascend – The Great Books Podcast

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was St. Boethius? (04:16–07:49)

2. Boethius: Last Roman, First Scholastic (07:49–10:39)

3. Boethius & The Liberal Arts (09:47–11:18)

4. The Accessibility and Power of Consolation of Philosophy (11:18–14:47)

5. What Platonic Texts Did Boethius Actually Have? (14:47–16:54)

6. Neoplatonism & Lady Philosophy (16:54–18:21)

7. The Dialogic Structure and Platonic Resonances (18:21–23:53)

8. The Pedagogical Method: Destruction and Construction (24:31–28:28)

9. The Good, God, and Beatitude: Synthesizing Plato & Christianity (31:53–38:20)

10. Virtue, Power, and the Paradox of the Unjust (38:20–46:59)

11. Literary Structure—Prose & Poetic Passages (45:11–46:59)

12. The Nature of Evil: Privation and Becoming More or Less Than Human (48:15–50:38)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Important Segments

Final Thoughts

Further Reading & Resources