Ascend - The Great Books Podcast

Episode: Plato's Meno and Education with Dr. Daniel Wagner

Release Date: November 5, 2025
Host: Deacon Harrison Garlick
Guest: Dr. Daniel Wagner (Aquinas College, Lyceum Institute)

Episode Overview

This episode delves into Plato's Meno, exploring its significance for classical education, the nature of virtue, and the drama of learning as depicted through the dialogue's characters. Dr. Daniel Wagner joins Deacon Harrison Garlick to examine how Meno depicts learning—not as mere memorization, but as the active formation of the intellect and character. The discussion provides thoughtful insights into the “strata of education” within the dialogue, comparing how different souls (Meno, the slave boy, Anytus) respond to Socratic inquiry.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Classical Education

• What is Classical Education?
  • Learning is about inculcating virtuous habits ("habits of knowing")—not just rote memorization or training for economic functions.
  • True education forms intellect and character, using time-tested sources and Socratic dialogue rather than training for narrow skills.
• The Role of Modern Online Initiatives:
  • Lyceum Institute and Ascend aim to bring classical education to those isolated from such resources, leveraging technology for good.
• Quote [08:27]:
  • "I think offering these online things... bringing wisdom over this new technology is really helpful and can really... reach those people in isolation." — Harrison Garlick

2. Classical Education vs. Modern Training

• Classical education intertwines subjects, forming an interrelated whole, while modern systems are often atomized and utilitarian, preparing students mainly for the workforce.
  • Quote [13:40]:
    • "Not everybody thinks of education like that... we're going to use Socratic approaches... engage with primary source texts, classics that express profound truths, beauties and goodnesses." — Dr. Wagner

3. Meno’s Character and his Approach to Learning

• Meno as a Student:
  • He exemplifies “memorization without real learning.”
  • Meno tends to regurgitate opinions and definitions learned from others; he lacks reflective inquiry.
  • Learning for Meno is instrumental—a means to power, glory, or rhetorical skill.
    • Quote [19:09]:
      • "He stays very flat... his questions back to [Socrates] seem to almost convey they've made little to no impact." — Garlick
• Contrast with Alcibiades:
  • Unlike Alcibiades, Meno never truly experiences perplexity or transformation, remaining superficially engaged.

4. Perplexity (Aporia) and the Role of the Student

• Socratic Perplexity:

  • Being “stung by the numb fish” (torpedo fish/num fish): Socrates induces perplexity so that students become aware of their ignorance, creating the precondition for genuine learning.
  • Students may respond with humility and curiosity or with pride and anger—Meno, typifying the latter, accuses Socrates of deliberately confusing him.
  • Quote [30:04]:
    • “It's like literally, it's like being knotted up... You're aware of phenomena or ideas that, you know, seem problematic or present a question to you... The philosopher responds with wonder... in humility.” — Dr. Wagner

• Virtues for Learning:

  • Humility and courage are essential; courage is needed to accept uncomfortable truths about oneself and reality.
    • Quote [35:49]:
      • "We talk about docility, we talk about humility... but courage is, I think, really, really important, particularly in today's age..." — Garlick

5. The Slave Boy Demonstration: Pedagogy in Action

• Why Geometry?

  • Socrates’ use of geometry is not incidental; he selects a mathematical problem because Meno is drawn to such knowledge, and Socrates tailors his teaching accordingly.
  • The exercise shows the limitations of seeking only quantitative, demonstrable knowledge.
    • Quote [55:09]:
      • “It’s a geometrical example that's going to rely on knowledge that's not mathematical... Even in mathematics, there are things we know that... we cannot perfectly quantify.” — Dr. Wagner

• Process and Outcome:

  • The slave boy, unlike Meno, responds with humility and courage, successfully experiences perplexity, and truly learns, contrasting Meno’s resistant, power-oriented approach.
    • Quote [67:47]:
      • “In that sense becomes virtuous. So I think in that sense it's a great way... don't be a Meno, you know.” — Dr. Wagner

• Pedagogical Takeaway:

  • The drama is not about recollection as a metaphysical fact but about demonstrating the possibility and nature of learning.

6. Theory of Recollection: Is Socrates Serious?

• Socrates cites the theory mainly to appease Meno's educational background and stimulate his openness.
• He himself demurs on its certainty: “I’m not sure how much I would insist on this” [70:48].
• Later contrasts this with knowledge of the difference between knowledge and right opinion, which he claims is something he genuinely knows.

7. Virtue's Teachability & the Student-Teacher Dynamic

• Whether virtue is teachable is treated with complexity:

  • If virtue is a kind of knowledge or wisdom, it can be taught. If it’s simply right opinion, it's less secure and less teachable.
  • The student's role: One must choose to practice virtue—even the best teacher cannot guarantee the student’s transformation.
    • Quote [89:32]:
      • "The teacher can offer knowledge to the student... but then there has to be this response: do I then act according to what I now know?" — Garlick

• Political and Parental Analogy:

  • Socrates’ discussion of famous statesmen and their sons: even good exemplars cannot ensure virtue in others—there is a necessary voluntary element.

8. Practice vs. Knowledge (Socrates vs. Aristotle)

• While some claim Plato/Socrates reduces virtue to mere knowledge, Wagner argues the seeds of practice—the necessity of willful action by the student—are embedded in the dialogue.
• Later thinkers, notably Aristotle, expand on this with their richer account of “virtue as a habit,” but Plato is not wholly ignorant of this element.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Meno’s Intellectual Stagnation:

  • "Maino is like this perverted form of just staying in the same place..." — Dr. Wagner [21:28]

• On the Function of Perplexity:

  • "This is why Socrates, I mean, Socrates thinks this... If you deny the possibility of learning, you're never going to seek the good and become better..." — Dr. Wagner [32:53]

• On Mature Education:

  • "Learning is about knowing... but that is not a passive activity... the learner has to actively pursue it." — Dr. Wagner [96:11]

• On Teacher-Student Reciprocity:

  • "There are two distinct movements in becoming virtuous: the knowledge that is given and the practice in response to that knowledge." — Garlick [95:14]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Lyceum Institute & Classical Education: 03:36 – 08:27
• Modern vs. Classical Education; Virtue & Interdisciplinarity: 13:40 – 16:50
• Meno’s Intellectual Character & Motivation: 19:09 – 22:00
• Socratic Aporia (Perplexity) & Role of Student Virtues: 29:28 – 35:49
• Courage in Intellectual Life: 35:49 – 39:14
• The Geometry Demonstration Explained: 41:47 – 64:48
• Pedagogy: Meno vs. the Slave Boy: 65:51 – 67:47
• Theory of Recollection; Socrates’ Attitude: 70:48 – 72:38
• Virtue, Right Opinion, and Knowledge: 72:38 – 79:42
• Reciprocity in Education, Practice vs. Knowledge: 89:05 – 96:11

Final Takeaways

• Don’t Be Like Meno: The dialogue is a warning against passive, unreflective learning and the ambition for knowledge-as-power.
• Parallel to Classical Education: True learning is both intellectual and moral; it requires humility, courage, and active participation, not just content delivery.
• Virtue Requires Practice: Knowledge can be taught; its conversion into virtue depends on the willful participation of the student.
• Never Stop Questioning: The dialogue insists on both the difficulty and necessity of examining our own assumptions and opening ourselves up to transformation.

Further Reading & Resources

• Jacob Klein, John Sallis, Eva Brann (commentaries on Meno and Plato)
• Dr. Daniel Wagner’s dissertation: Nature and the Human Good: The Aristotelian Foundations of the Human Good — Available via ProQuest
• Journal: Reality (focus on classical realism, articles by Dr. Wagner)
• Aquinas College & Lyceum Institute — For classical education resources and seminars

Next Episode

The Ascend podcast will continue the Platonic trajectory with a three-part exploration of the Gorgias.

Contact

• Dr. Daniel Wagner: Aquinas College faculty page or [Reality journal].
• Podcast Info/Schedule: thegreatbookspodcast.com

“Don’t be a Meno.”