Ascend - The Great Books Podcast

Episode Title: Plato's Phaedo Explained with Dr. Christopher Frey Part I
Air Date: October 14, 2025
Hosts: Deacon Harrison Garlick & Adam Minihan
Guest: Dr. Christopher Frey, McFarlane Professor of Philosophy, University of Tulsa

Episode Overview

In this episode of Ascend, the hosts and their guest, Dr. Christopher Frey, embark on a deep and attentive analysis of Plato’s Phaedo, with a special focus on the dialogue’s opening scenes and the first of Socrates’s arguments for the immortality of the soul. The conversation examines not just the abstract arguments themselves but also the dramatic elements, setting, and Platonic pedagogy at play, all while relating them to broader philosophical and even Christian themes.

This episode is particularly accessible for first-time explorers of Plato, giving background, interpretive advice, and practical framing for readers new and seasoned alike.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Why Read Plato? The Drama and the Pedagogy (04:10–09:25)

• Literary Power: Both hosts and Dr. Frey agree that Plato should not be read as a mere delivery system for philosophical arguments. His dialogues embody philosophy as a vibrant, communal enterprise.
  • “Properly done philosophy should be a communal enterprise…something done in conversation with others. And that's, you know, it's nice. It's amazing works of literature in addition to the philosophical arguments and positions being put forward.” — Dr. Frey (04:20)
• Dramatic Context is Pedagogical: Plato’s choice of interlocutors, settings, and narrative layers is intentional and crucial to understanding the arguments’ meaning and function.
  • Host Harrison notes, “…the drama is part of the pedagogy. Right…he chooses the settings, he chooses his words, particularly he chooses the interlocutors…The arguments are tailored to the people he's talking to.” (06:08)
• Interpretive Caution: Dr. Frey encourages readers to appreciate ambiguity and the open-ended nature of Platonic dialogue:
  • “There isn't the sort of implicit commitment to claims being made that you'd get in a lot of texts where you're just making an argument and there's a presumption that the person making the argument believes…” (07:24)

2. The Enduring Beauty and Power of the Phaedo (09:40–13:57)

• Personal Engagement: Dr. Frey reveals Phaedo never ceases to reward rereading—a testament to its literary and philosophical richness.
  • “…there are things you notice that you didn't before, or things are brought into relief and become prominent in ways that you didn't appreciate before. And it, it rewards careful reflection, it rewards returning to it.” — Dr. Frey (09:40)
• Central Human Concern: The dialogue’s drama is not ‘academic’; it is existentially urgent. Mortality, the afterlife, and the preparation for death are at stake.
  • “Death is a ineliminable feature of living a human life...what happens after we die…is a great source of anxiety…” — Dr. Frey (11:20)
• Socrates as a Paradoxical Figure: Instead of wailing, Socrates consoles others, laughs, and appears serene—raising the essential question: “What does he know?”

3. The Opening Frame: Storytelling, Absence, and Pythagoreans (14:54–20:58)

• The Phaedo is not just the story of Socrates’ death, but the story of the story’s telling, with Phaedo narrating to the Pythagorean Echecrates.
• Significance of Plato’s Absence: Plato writes himself as absent “because he was sick.”
  • Dr. Frey points out this is only one of two places Plato mentions his own presence/absence and connects it to themes of embodiment and knowledge. (16:54)
  • “It’s…not an accident that the reason given for his absences being sick that something bodily prevented this from happening.” (18:42)
• The presence of Pythagorean listeners and interlocutors (Simmias and Cebes) frames the discussion in terms of reincarnation and souls already believed to survive death.

4. Myth of Theseus: Drama, Poetry, and the New Hero (21:30–34:50)

• The Theseus myth is woven into the narrative explaining the delay in Socrates’ execution, connecting Athenian myth, poetry, and philosophy.

  • Dr. Frey argues Socrates is presented as a new kind of hero—virtuous where mythic heroes are not, a model for living and dying well:
  • “...trying to present a different kind of hero in Socrates, distinct from the heroes of the traditional myths…” (23:04)

• Poetry in Plato: Not all poetry is denigrated—only that which misleads about gods, virtue, or the afterlife. Good poetry can form virtuous citizens; drama is itself a pedagogical device in Plato.

• Eva Brann’s Allegory (28:08): The 14 named witnesses of Socrates’ death are likened to the youths rescued by Theseus, with Socrates as the new, philosophical hero slaying the Minotaur (fear of death).

5. Socrates’ Family & Death: The Role of Emotion and Philosophy (34:50–41:11)

• The removal of Socrates' wife and children is read as an educational moment about priorities at death:
  • “...I actually read this as a temptation, right? This is the wrong view of death…when the men start acting like the wife, they're having emotional reaction…he chastises them...are they then serving as a temptation to him to have an emotional reaction that's contrary to his own views?” — Deacon Harrison (34:50)
• Socrates’ attitude: The proper way to die is through philosophical conversation—a rehearsal for death itself. Even so, he acknowledges uncertainty and promotes a pragmatic approach (“You’ll be a better person if you accept this, even if it ends up wrong.”) (37:16)

6. The Central Premise: The Soul, the Body, and the Pursuit of Wisdom (45:36–66:23)

• What is the Soul? Plato’s (and Socrates’s) view: “what one really is.” The soul is the true self, ruling the body, bearer of justice and knowledge, and the subject of death and immortality.

  • “What we are, what a man is, is his soul, the thing which is dominant and rules over the body...It’s the soul that knows.” — Dr. Frey (45:36)

• The Body as Both Necessary and Problematic: The body is portrayed as an impediment to knowledge and virtue—source of appetite, distraction, error. Yet, Plato is not a Gnostic or radical dualist:

  • “It's easy…to say, oh, he hates the body, it's like, well, I'm not sure that's true if you actually look at some of the dramatic elements.” — Deacon Harrison (53:14)
  • Dr. Frey supports this, noting that while Plato is critical of bodily distractions, he does not advocate total rejection of embodiment, but rather moderation and virtue. (55:04)

• Knowledge and the Senses: Our embodied condition limits our access to knowledge; only after death, when soul is freed, could pure knowledge be obtained.

  • “He thinks in general the body confuses the soul and it doesn't present the true objects of knowledge to you.” — Dr. Frey (60:14)

• Christian Parallels: There are resonant themes with the Christian doctrine of the beatific vision—immediacy of knowledge after death, unmediated by senses, and the possibility of imperfect but genuine wisdom in life. (66:20)

7. The First Argument for the Soul’s Immortality: The Argument from Opposites (67:00–83:30)

• Summary: Socrates' “cyclical” or “opposite” argument claims everything comes to be from its opposite (e.g., waking from sleep), so living comes from dead, and souls must pre-exist and persist.
• Hosts’ Skepticism: Both Harrison and Dr. Frey highlight that the argument is not airtight or ultimately convincing on its own.
  • "I am not [convinced]. I mean…I think everyone in this room knows that they're trying to philosophize about something that they can't actually get a rock solid answer on.” — Harrison (74:07)
• Pedagogical Purpose: Dr. Frey explains that the series of arguments, taken together, are meant less for airtight proof and more for forming a philosophical disposition, ruling out alternatives, and clarifying the issues:
  • “...once you get towards the end, perhaps you're in a much better position than you were before, even if each of them on their own isn't meant to stand alone…” (69:24)
• Broader Context: The dialogue uses the harmony theory (soul as “tuning” or organization of the body), which Dr. Frey links to modern materialist/functional definitions of life, furthering the context for Plato’s inquiries. (81:11, 83:31)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• [04:20] Dr. Frey on Platonic Dialogue:
  "Properly done philosophy should be a communal enterprise...It's amazing works of literature in addition to the philosophical arguments."
• [09:40] Dr. Frey on rereading Phaedo:
  "I probably read it over 20 times now, and it's, it's rewarding every single time I do. There are things you notice that you didn't before..."
• [11:20] Dr. Frey on the dialogue’s urgency:
  "Death is an ineliminable feature of living a human life...It's a great source of anxiety..."
• [18:42] Dr. Frey on Plato’s absence being significant:
  "It is kind of...I don't think it's an accident that the reason given for his absences being sick, that something bodily prevented this from happening."
• [23:04] Dr. Frey on Socrates as a new kind of hero:
  "What Plato's doing is trying to present a different kind of hero in Socrates, distinct from the heroes of the traditional myths."
• [34:50] Deacon Harrison on the emotional temptations of death's scene:
  "I actually read this as a temptation, right? This is the wrong view of death...when the men start acting like the wife, they're having emotional reaction...he chastises them..."
• [45:36] Dr. Frey on Plato’s view of the soul:
  "What we are, what a man is, is his soul, the thing which is dominant and rules over the body...It's the soul that knows."
• [53:14] Deacon Harrison cautioning against the Gnostic reading:
  "It's easy…to say, oh, he hates the body, it's like, well, I'm not sure that's true if you actually look at some of the dramatic elements."
• [60:14] Dr. Frey on knowledge and the body:
  "He thinks in general the body confuses the soul and it doesn't present the true objects of knowledge to you."
• [74:07] Deacon Harrison, skeptical of the cyclical argument’s strength:
  "I am not [convinced]. I mean…I think everyone in this room knows that they're trying to philosophize about something that they can't actually get a rock solid answer on."

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00–04:10]: Introduction to the Phaedo, background on Dr. Frey
• [04:10–09:25]: Why read Plato, importance of dramatic context
• [09:40–13:57]: Personal and pedagogical power of the Phaedo
• [14:54–20:58]: Framing narrative, Plato’s absence, and the Pythagorean context
• [21:30–34:50]: The Theseus myth, poetry, and new models of heroism
• [34:50–41:11]: Socrates’ family, emotional dynamics, and the philosophical way to die
• [45:36–66:23]: The soul and body, epistemology, and philosophical anthropology
• [66:23–74:07]: Argument from opposites/cyclical argument
• [74:07–83:30]: Critique of the cyclical argument, harmony theory, and broader modern parallels

Closing Notes

The episode concludes without rushing to final answers, instead inviting listeners to appreciate the Phaedo as a complex dramatic, philosophical, and spiritual exploration. Next week’s discussion will continue with the argument from recollection and further examination of Plato’s multi-faceted case for the immortality of the soul.

Useful for New Readers

• Emphasizes careful, patient reading of Plato.
• Explains the difference between “academic” dissection of arguments and the holistic, dramatic method.
• Connects Platonic themes to Christian (especially Catholic) thought without presuming prior mastery.
• Encourages skepticism and critical engagement, even with revered texts.

[End of Summary - Ascend, Plato's Phaedo Explained, Part I]