Ascend – The Great Books Podcast
Episode: Rhetoric and Philosophy: Part One of the Gorgias with Athenian Stranger and Johnathan Bi
Date: November 11, 2025
Hosts: Deacon Harrison Garlick & Adam Minihan
Guests: Athenian Stranger, Jonathan Bai
Episode Overview
This episode inaugurates a three-part series on Plato’s Gorgias by focusing on the first section—Socrates' debate with Gorgias. Through a lively and probing roundtable, Deacon Harrison Garlick, Adam Minihan, mathematician-turned-platonist Athenian Stranger, and autodidact philosophy podcaster Jonathan B(“Bi”) unravel Gorgias' deep questions: Is rhetoric an art or simply a knack? What separates the philosopher from the sophist? What is at stake when persuasive speech rules public life? The panel situates the dialogue amid the collapse of Athenian values, connects it to contemporary dilemmas, and teases out the complexity and dangers of teaching without wisdom.
Main Discussion Points & Insights
1. Personal Journeys into Philosophy & the Great Books
- [05:34] Athenian Stranger and Jonathan Bi trace strikingly parallel histories: both trained in mathematics, both disillusioned with the academy, and both turned to philosophy seeking “practical answers” and soul-salvation.
- Athenian: “Run into problems in your own life and you start looking at your math text, these advanced mathematics books... and they don’t have anything to say... So I started roaming around in the philosophy department and finally just walked away from the math PhD program and wanted to just do philosophy.”
- Jonathan: “I got into philosophy... as ceteriology—it was the salvation of my soul. [The] academy, that’s not how they’re treating it at all.”
2. Why Read Gorgias? What's at Stake?
- [13:49] Athenian Stranger asserts Gorgias is about “the burst-like effect of philosophy... the pedagogical effect, that is the soul’s reception to this thing we would otherwise think of as wonder... erotic element of human nature.”
- [16:11] Jonathan says the Gorgias is an “acquired taste” whose real value is in the philosophical refutations, especially the radical claims Socrates will soon make (e.g., “it’s better to be harmed than to harm”). He contrasts Gorgias with Phaedrus, where the relationship between rhetoric and philosophy is explored more completely.
- [19:06] Harrison highlights how the dialogue grows on re-reading, particularly with Callicles' brutal honesty and the myth at the end: “I think one of the things that I really appreciated about the Gorgias is it seems to have a very raw and real element to it that I appreciate.”
3. Rhetoric, Justice, and the Human Soul
- [31:41] Harrison proposes the interlocutors (Gorgias, Polus, Callicles) might be mapped to the Platonic soul: intellect, spiritedness, appetite.
- [33:00–40:55] Athenian Stranger resists neat mapping, arguing Plato’s “tripartitions” are situational, and rhetoric is about the manipulation (“pleonexia” — grasping for more) of desire, whether open or disguised.
- [44:34] Jonathan notes: “What each person is saying is like, no, no, no, I’m going to take over this debate now because they actually agree with me. They’re just too socially concerned to do this.”
4. Pairing Gorgias with Phaedrus & the Limits of Rhetoric
- [21:33] Athenian Stranger draws a structural connection: where the Phaedrus gives theory about different “types of souls” and speeches required to move them, Gorgias shows it in action—testing rhetoric’s power over the incorrigible.
- [37:49] Notable Quote (Athenian Stranger, on Gorgias’ core claim):
“...the power of my art... It’s most especially that which wins over political activities. That’s when you see the tyranny of the soul under the harness of pleonexia on an individual basis can... get writ large across the entire political community.”
5. The War for the Polis—and for the Youth
- [50:34] Jonathan reads the scene where Gorgias boasts of persuading policy in Athens as philosophical dark satire: “By the time this dialogue was written... the middle wall was torn down [as a mark of Athenian defeat].” Dramatic irony signals decay under sophistic rule.
- [54:01] Harrison: “It seems like the war that’s going on here really is for the souls of the youth...”
6. Socrates vs Gorgias: Art or Knack? Knowledge or Prowess?
- [57:25–65:00] Key segment:
Athenian Stranger (and later Jonathan) break down Socrates’ demolition of Gorgias:- Gorgias claims rhetoric is “the greatest good” (452D).
- Socrates systematically exposes that Gorgias’ “art” cannot give an account of its own nature or distinguish just from unjust use; it deals only in persuasion (pistis), not knowledge (episteme).
- Notable Quote (Athenian Stranger, 61:45):
“The difference between your understanding of technology, or we could say rhetoric, is not able to provide an account of why it goes wrong. Dialectic can.”
- Socratic dialectic—reasoning together—can correct itself; rhetoric alone cannot.
- Gorgias is caught in contradiction about whether he teaches justice, or mere power, via rhetoric (see 456C–E).
7. Is Rhetoric Always Dangerous—or Can It Be Redeemed?
- [74:03] Athenian: “The question ultimately is, are we to make rhetoric subservient to philosophy or is philosophy to make rhetoric subservient to itself? Because you’re going to have both, either way, in the sense of the erotic nature of man.”
- [80:14] Jonathan:
“Philosophy divorced from rhetoric is impotent. Rhetoric divorced from philosophy is tyrannical. You need them together for genuine civic good.”
- [86:38] Both guests stress that Socrates’ strategy is not to “convert” Gorgias, Polus, or Callicles—whose pride or perversity shields them—but to demonstrate their bankrupt arguments for the sake of the observing youth.
8. Teachers, Responsibility, and Corrupting the Youth
- [112:41] Jonathan draws a parallel: just as Socrates shames Gorgias for the students he produces, Socrates himself is accused by the Athenians of corrupting Alcibiades.
- [113:46] Athenian and Harrison discuss the limits of a teacher’s control, with Harrison noting, “the teacher can only lead the student to a certain degree, but the student has to reciprocate in some capacity.”
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | | --------- | ------- | ----- | | 13:49 | Athenian Stranger | “The pedagogical effect [of philosophy]... is the soul’s reception to this thing... we would otherwise think of as wonder—that is, the erotic element of human nature.” | | 21:33 | Athenian Stranger | “The entirety of the Gorgias is contained within a particular thing that gets said in the Phaedrus.” (explaining the skeleton-key passage Phaedrus 271D) | | 44:44 | Athenian Stranger | “There’s no universal form of speech that can be deposited into every kind of soul. Human souls are too different.” | | 54:01 | Harrison | “It seems like the war that’s going on here really is like, for the souls of the youth.” | | 61:45 | Athenian Stranger | “The difference between your understanding of technology, or we could say rhetoric, is not able to provide an account of why it goes wrong. Dialectic can.” | | 80:14 | Jonathan Bai | “Philosophy divorced from rhetoric is impotent. Rhetoric divorced from philosophy is tyrannical.” | | 98:06 | Athenian Stranger | “Gorgias is perfectly fine by producing a bunch of little tyrants, because that means that he just has to make sure that he stays on top of his game... It’s this perpetual... contest always.” | | 112:41 | Jonathan Bai | "Socrates will push Gorgias and say, look at these guys you’re producing. Are you not responsible? Which is exactly what Socrates is being pushed on [at his own trial]." |
Key Timestamps for Important Segments
- 00:00–10:00: Host and guest introductions, rationale for studying Gorgias
- 13:49–21:33: Why Gorgias is crucial for grappling with rhetoric, virtue, and the soul
- 31:41–41:19: The "three-part soul" analogy and the limits of such mapping
- 50:34–54:01: The stakes of the war for the youth and Athens’ civic soul
- 57:25–70:44: Socrates’s systematic critique of Gorgias, art vs. knack, knowledge vs. persuasion
- 80:10–82:52: The necessity of wedding philosophy and rhetoric; dangers of their separation
- 104:43–106:24: The contradiction that undoes Gorgias—how responsibility for students exposes the weakness of sophistry
- 112:41–118:21: Reflection on the teacher-student relationship, Alcibiades, and the Meno
Structure of the Gorgias (as explained on the podcast)
- Three Natural Parts:
- Socrates with Gorgias (today’s focus)
- Socrates with Polus (next episode)
- Socrates with Callicles (final episode)
- Each interlocutor represents a different stance—but all ultimately share a desire for power, distinguished only by how openly they admit it.
- Socratic Elenchus exposes first their ignorance, but mainly aims at the onlooking youth.
Final Thoughts & Teasers for Part Two
- Jonathan: The crucial contradiction is not merely that Gorgias’s persuasion doesn’t impart knowledge, but that Gorgias claims not to be responsible for what his students do, yet also claims to teach them justice. This tension unravels Gorgias’s entire position and leads to Polus jumping in to defend the master.
- Athenian Stranger: “Our students really, in fact, [reveal]...by which a teacher is held accountable. Classical Athens said yes. Because if they didn’t say yes, Socrates would not have had to drink the hemlock.”
- Look ahead for the next episode and the escalation of the debate with Polus—who is less restrained than Gorgias and more honest about the sophistic drive for power.
Summary Tone
The conversation ebbed between the analytical and the anecdotal, brimming with both deep respect for Plato’s subtlety and irreverent asides about mathematicians, modern “pick-up artistry”, and the podcast hosts’ own autodidactic journeys. The guests consistently stressed an urgent relevance: Socratic questioning, the seductions (and dangers) of rhetoric, and the stakes of education are as timely now as they were in Athens’ last days.
For First-Time Readers
The hosts and their guests meticulously modeled how to read slowly and thoughtfully, encouraged taking notes on contradictions, and challenged listeners to see both the classical and contemporary stakes in wrestling with texts like Gorgias.
Next Episode Teaser:
Join us next week as we move to Socrates’ confrontation with Polus—where the masks of shame fall even further, and the underlying battle for souls and society intensifies.
Resources:
- Find more written guides and future Q&A at thegreatbookspodcast.com
- Find Jonathan Bai’s Substack and high-quality video essays on philosophy and the Great Books
- Check out Athenian Stranger’s X (Twitter) spaces and essays on Plato, Nietzsche, and more