Ascend - The Great Books Podcast

Sir Gawain and the Green Knight: Fitts 2 & 3 with Dr. Tiffany Schubert

Date: December 23, 2025
Hosts: Deacon Harrison Garlick and Adam Minihan
Guest: Dr. Tiffany Schubert (Associate Professor of Humanities, Wyoming Catholic College)
Panelists from X: George (Chivalry Guild), Banished Kent

Episode Overview

In this episode, the hosts and guest Dr. Tiffany Schubert delve into Fitts 2 and 3 of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, exploring its central medieval themes through the lens of the Catholic intellectual tradition. The conversation weaves together the symbolism of the pentangle on Gawain’s shield, the role of time and liturgy, the tension between chivalric and Christian ideals, the function of courtesy and temptation, and the poem’s playful, ironic tone.

Main Discussion Points and Insights

1. Dr. Schubert’s Background and Approach to the Poem

(03:10 – 06:22)

• Dr. Schubert’s scholarship bridges medieval romance and its afterlife in the modern novel, particularly in Jane Austen.
• She sees Sir Gawain as distinct from epics like The Divine Comedy, rooting the reader in the incarnate, messy reality of this life rather than purely ascending toward the divine.
• The poem’s pervasive irony and focus on life’s ambiguities are central to her reading.

Quote:
“This is a poem...very attuned to this life and living this life well, at least by confronting the fact that you are a being in an incarnate, murky, confusing kind of a world.” – Dr. Schubert (05:18)

2. Horsemanship, Virtue, and Leadership

(06:22 – 12:16)

• Discussion about horsemanship at Wyoming Catholic College as a formation of prudence, fortitude, and leadership.
• Riding, unlike sports or interaction with machines, requires a subtle combination of authority and intuition—a theme mirrored in the nuanced demands of knighthood in Gawain.

Quote:
“What is it like to govern and lead a being...who has a will, has desires, right, but is not...rational? ...It requires a confidence in your own authority as a human being, while simultaneously a deep and profound awareness of the nature of the horse.” – Dr. Schubert (09:06)

3. Time, Liturgical Structure, and Symbolism

(12:16 – 20:26)

• Gawain’s lingering at Arthur’s court before setting off is debated: is it a flaw, or symbolic of awaiting the right (liturgical) time to act?
• The poem overlays the passage of seasons with the Church calendar, especially Michaelmas and All Hallows, emphasizing a “memento mori” effect.
• Time in Gawain is both cyclical (liturgical, natural) and linear (the quest proceeds toward resolution, much like salvation history).

Notable Exchange:
“There’s a liturgical year, then that lingering is not necessarily like a negative, but rather there’s a fitting time for him to leave.” – Deacon Garlick (17:23)
“...the timing of his leaving points towards there’s seasons in one’s life where we’re going to naturally start to ponder...we have to kind of memento mori a little bit.” – Banished Kent (16:55)

4. Deflation of Chivalric Expectations & The Pentangle Symbol

(20:26 – 34:23)

• The poet downplays conventional heroics (Gawain’s battles are quickly glossed over) to focus on the inner drama and the courts.
• Pentangle (five-pointed star) on Gawain’s shield is elaborately described; its five sets of five represent completeness (senses, fingers, wounds of Christ, joys of Mary, virtues).
• Mary is depicted on the inside of the shield, symbolizing the internalization of Christian virtue.
• Discussion of tension: the unity symbolized by the pentangle vs. the real risk of imbalance between chivalric and Christian values, especially as events unfold.

Quote:
“What is United...is his physical prowess, his spiritual devotion and his chivalric virtues...everything, everything is perfectly balanced. Everything just falls together with no...conflict whatsoever.” – Dr. Schubert (31:49)

5. Piety, Christian Hierarchy, and Providence

(37:58 – 51:53)

• “Piety surpassing all other points”: roots in classical/Christian tradition (debt owed to parents, polis, and God).
• The highest virtue (piety) governs other obligations when conflicts arise.
• Gawain’s prayer to Mary at crucial turning points frames Providence as the true agent guiding (and testing) the hero.
• The castle appears as the mysterious answer to prayer—a trial disguised as a blessing.

Quote:
“Piety...is a gratitude that is born out of justice, but for a debt that you can’t ever pay back. ...[It] gives kind of like a cosmic structure to man.” – Deacon Garlick (37:58)

6. Hospitality, Christmas Games, and Repetition of Patterns

(51:53 – 57:10)

• The castle sequence mirrors Homeric hospitality (guest-friendship).
• Gawain once again joins a Christmas game without knowing the full terms, echoing the original Green Knight challenge.
• Discussion on whether this repetition speaks to virtue or foolishness—does obedience to earthly Lords or customs jeopardize moral integrity?

Quote:
“...from the virtue Christian side, you’d be like, brother, why don’t you pump the brakes a little bit on agreeing to these things that you don’t fully understand? ...But on the courtesy side, this seems to be some deference to your superior.” – Deacon Garlick (55:09)

7. The Three Temptation Scenes: Courtesy, Virtue, and Traps

(61:24 – 101:24)

a. Structural Overview

• The three hunting sequences (deer, boar, fox) parallel three escalating temptations by the Lady.
• Gawain’s reactions are shaped by the conflicting demands of courtesy (to his host’s wife), personal honor, and Christian virtue (chastity/temperance).

b. Courtesy Culture vs. Christian Morality

• Gawain’s unwillingness to simply reject the Lady (à la Joseph or Aquinas) is presented as both a flaw (courtesy taken too far) and a genuine bind given the expectations of the courtly code.
• The Lady frames his dilemma: is his “greatness” courtesy toward women or spiritual virtue (piety)?
• The Lady’s strategy is to attack his reputation for courtesy and to weaponize his desire for perfection.

Notable Quotes: “Why doesn’t he just pull a Thomas Aquinas here? Why doesn’t he just shove the prostitute out of...his room?...She keeps using that, right? She keeps saying ‘the knight should do this’...her version of chivalry is the courteous treatment of ladies.” – Dr. Schubert (68:28)

“If he takes the Aquinas method...he risks offending her. He risks her going to her lord and telling on him.” – George (71:04)

c. The Girdle: The Real Temptation

• Gawain resists the Lady’s gifts until offered the green girdle, said to guarantee his survival at the Green Chapel.
• The desire for self-preservation (not lust) is Gawain’s weak point; accepting the girdle and withholding it from his host breaks the terms of the game and challenges the poem’s standard of Christian self-surrender.

Quote:
“It seems like the reason that he takes the girdle is because...it will make him. He cannot be killed. ...It’s that temptation to save his life, right? That’s the thing that actually leads him to get into the double bind.” – Dr. Schubert (90:58)

d. The Double Bind

• By promising the Lady secrecy, Gawain is forced to betray either her trust or the Lord’s agreement—an inescapable trap.
• The poem’s “great peril” is both moral and existential, requiring the intervention of Mary (prayer and grace).

8. Humor, Irony, and Reader Engagement

(120:39 – 126:48)

• The temptation scenes are inherently comic, with their escalating tension, witty banter, and the courtesies masking deep danger.
• The oddness of Gawain giving “won” kisses to the Lord is intentionally funny and awkward, yet also signifies the shifting rules and the poem’s playful moral ambiguity.

Quotes:
“It’s a hilarious poem. And...even within the poem itself, that laughter...is something of a blind...obscuring...the real danger, the real test.” – Dr. Schubert (124:25)

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• The Pentangle and Projected Perfection:
  “That’s what Gawain sees when he is carrying the shield...the image that he projects is the pentangle. Projection is incredibly important for what happens in fit 3.” – Dr. Schubert (27:52)

• On Divine Providence and the Castle:
  “If Providence and Mary are directing this show, they have their own really kind of very sneaky and surprising purposes…” – Dr. Schubert (51:53)

• On the Lady’s Tactics:
  “She keeps saying, ‘Well, the stories tell us this, right? All those stories say the knight should do this...her version of chivalry is the courteous treatment of ladies.’” – Dr. Schubert (68:28)

• Gawain’s Weakness:
  “The thing that he cannot say no to is the girdle...it’s the temptation to save his life, that’s the thing that actually leads him to get into the double bind…” – Dr. Schubert (90:58)

• Double Bind/Trap:
  “She has checkmated him and guaranteed that he now has to betray one of them...In any consideration of his character...they have trapped him.” – George (97:42)

• Comic Tone:
  “Once again, that danger is coming in a form you don’t expect...there’s so much laughter and ease...even in FIT 3, so fraught, it’s so much moral danger…and yet, simultaneously, he seems to be having the time of his life with the lady.” – Dr. Schubert (123:30)

Important Segments & Timestamps (approximate for easy reference)

• Introduction and Dr. Schubert’s background — 02:51–06:22
• Horsemanship and virtue — 06:22–12:16
• Time, lingering, and liturgical structure — 12:16–20:26
• Deflation of adventure, focus on shields & pentangle — 20:26–34:23
• Discussion of piety and its hierarchy — 37:58–42:20
• Providence, Mary, and the castle — 45:21–51:53
• Analysis of the Christmas games & Fitt 2 close — 51:53–61:24
• Temptation scenes in Fitt 3 (structure & themes) — 61:24– 101:24
• Humor and comic irony — 120:39–126:48

Final Reflections and Takeaways

• Sir Gawain and the Green Knight stands out for its deflation of typical chivalric adventure in favor of moral and psychological trial; perfection is projected (pentangle), but reality is murky.
• The poem’s tension—between Christian virtue and chivalric courtesy—culminates in Gawain’s failure to uphold his covenant, but, as the panelists note, his error is deeply human and even endearing.
• Humor and irony pervade the narrative, and the poem deliberately traps both hero and reader in its ambiguous, multi-layered web.
• The girdle as a symbol of both temptation and mercy sets the stage for the poem’s ultimate lesson in humility and grace (to be tackled in Fitt 4).

Closing Thoughts:
“For a character like Gawain...the pentangle inclines us to think him as perfectly confirmed in all of these virtues. And this is a moment in which he fails. It’s not clear...he yet perceives or realizes he’s made...an error.” – Dr. Schubert (108:14)

“Gawain is not a Galahad, but I like Gawain more than Galahad…There’s something that I...can’t put into words how much I am endeared to him through this.” – George (112:31)

Next Episode:

Join for Fitt 4, where the team will unravel the moral and symbolic “knots” of Gawain’s journey!