Ascend - The Great Books Podcast: Episode Summary – "The Clouds by Aristophanes with Dr. Zina Hitz"
Release Date: July 1, 2025
Introduction
In this engaging episode of Ascend - The Great Books Podcast, hosts Deacon Harrison Garlick and Adam Minihan welcome their esteemed guest, Dr. Zina Hitz, to delve into Aristophanes' classic comedic play, "The Clouds." Dr. Hitz, a tutor at St. John's College and founder of the Catherine Project, brings her extensive knowledge of classical philosophy and education to illuminate the intricate themes of the play.
The Katherine Project: Empowering Lifelong Learners [00:02:13]
Dr. Zina Hitz introduces the Kathryn Project, a nonprofit initiative established in 2020 aimed at democratizing access to the Great Books. Unlike traditional educational institutions, the Katherine Project requires only a willingness to learn for admission. Participants engage in reading groups and tutorials, fostering an environment where individuals can explore profound texts without the constraints of credits or degrees. Dr. Hitz emphasizes the project's rapid growth and its mission to empower individuals to embark on a life of intellectual discovery.
Dr. Zina Hitz: "We conduct reading groups, tutorials. We have a new core curriculum we just launched for beginners... to empower them to read these books, which is often daunting."
The Power of Group Reading: Iron Sharpens Iron [00:03:17]
The conversation shifts to the role of fraternity in reading great books together. Deacon Garlick shares his inspiration for the podcast, highlighting how reading in groups fosters diverse perspectives and deeper understanding. Dr. Hitz concurs, likening the experience to "going to the gym," where mutual support is crucial for maintaining the discipline required to tackle challenging texts.
Deacon Harrison Garlick: "It's like you get the benefit of rereading it multiple times of one read through. So it's like, I'm going to read the Iliad right now... it's really fruitful."
Dr. Hitz's Work: "The Philosophers Look at Religious Life" [00:08:00]
Dr. Hitz discusses her recently released book, "The Philosophers Look at Religious Life," part of a series exploring various topics through philosophical lenses. She explores the paradox of religious vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, juxtaposing them against perceived societal sacrifices. Dr. Hitz aims to articulate Christian spirituality beyond mere moral instruction, emphasizing its profound and joyous dimensions.
Dr. Zina Hitz: "I wanted to work out that paradox and explain my own struggles with it... It's very profound. It's very deep."
Aristophanes and "The Clouds": A Pedagogical Comedy [00:14:45]
Deacon Garlick provides a contextual overview of Aristophanes and his play, "The Clouds." Born around 446 BC, Aristophanes is celebrated as the father of comedy, with over 40 plays, although only 11 survive today. "The Clouds," produced around 423 BC during the Peloponnesian War, serves as a satirical commentary on education, piety, and the moral state of Athens. The play notably portrays Socrates as a character whose methods and philosophies are critiqued through humor and satire.
Deacon Harrison Garlick: "Aristophanes humor is vulgar and crude... he saw himself as a teacher and his plays amongst the humor can carry a lesson."
Analyzing "The Clouds": Education and Its Consequences [00:15:30]
Dr. Hitz affirms that Aristophanes intended to teach audiences through comedy, suggesting that the play's humor masks deeper societal critiques. She cautions against seeking a singular moral, as the play's messages are multivalent and resonate differently across audiences.
Dr. Zina Hitz: "It's always serious. It's not just low entertainment."
Themes of Wealth, Debt, and Education [00:18:20]
The hosts delve into the socioeconomic underpinnings of "The Clouds." The protagonist, Strepsides, grapples with overwhelming debt due to his son's lavish lifestyle. To alleviate this, Strepsides enrolls his son in a "thinkery" led by Socrates, intending to teach him the art of rhetoric to outwit creditors. Dr. Hitz contextualizes this within Athens’ imperial wealth post-Marathon victory, drawing parallels to contemporary issues of wealth and moral corruption.
Dr. Zina Hitz: "Social ambition and debt are actually huge themes... Balzac and Trollope explored similar themes in the 19th century."
Piety, Political Stability, and Moral Standards [00:29:09]
A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the interplay between piety and political stability as depicted in the play. Deacon Garlick reflects on how ancient Greek notions of piety were intertwined with societal cohesion, contrasting it with modern secular societies where piety is less central.
Deacon Harrison Garlick: "There's piety towards the gods as giving stability to the polis."
Dr. Hitz expresses the challenge of translating ancient societal values to the modern context, emphasizing that denying the gods in the play symbolizes the erosion of moral codes essential for societal harmony.
Dr. Zina Hitz: "Belief in the gods is standing in for something else... sticking to the moral code that's keeping the whole society together."
Translation Challenges in "The Clouds" [00:49:30]
The conversation shifts to the difficulties inherent in translating Aristophanes' comedies. Dr. Hitz notes that maintaining puns and crude humor is a significant challenge, often leading to varied interpretations across different translations.
Deacon Harrison Garlick: "The translation on Aristophanes actually matters a lot."
Dr. Hitz recommends specific translations, such as those by Summerstein in the Penguin Classics, which balance literal accuracy with comedic elements.
Socrates in "The Clouds": Historical vs. Dramatic Portrayal [00:57:10]
A pivotal discussion centers on Socrates' portrayal in "The Clouds" versus his depiction in Platonic dialogues. Dr. Hitz highlights the contrasting images – Aristophanes presents Socrates as a corrupter of youth and a sophist, while Plato’s texts depict him as a principled philosopher devoted to truth and community welfare.
Dr. Zina Hitz: "In Plato's Apology, Socrates mentions Aristophanes... we don't know where Socrates ends and Plato begins."
Deacon Garlick expresses his struggle to reconcile these portrayals, questioning whether Aristophanes aimed to warn Socrates or simply satirize societal trends.
Deacon Harrison Garlick: "When you read the play, it was really hard for me to come away with that perspective because it's such a heavy critique."
Modern Parallels and Moral Precedents [00:35:19]
Drawing parallels to contemporary society, Deacon Garlick discusses the concept of moral precedent and the dangers of eroding moral standards, as depicted in the play. He highlights the human tendency to pursue immediate gains without considering long-term moral implications, likening Strepsides' actions to modern policy debates where short-term solutions undermine foundational ethics.
Deacon Harrison Garlick: "If there's this thing, like Strepsides, he just needs to get rid of my debts... it's a slippery slope."
Dr. Hitz relates this to the current higher education landscape, where educational institutions grapple with their roles in shaping morally grounded citizens amidst societal corruption.
Dr. Zina Hitz: "How does education help us?... it's a challenge."
Conclusion: Navigating "The Clouds" and Beyond [00:67:48]
As the episode concludes, Dr. Hitz and Deacon Garlick reflect on the complexities and enduring relevance of "The Clouds." They acknowledge the play’s multilayered critique of education, morality, and societal decay, inviting listeners to engage deeply with the text to uncover its myriad meanings. Dr. Hitz encourages listeners to explore her work and the Katherine Project for further intellectual enrichment.
Dr. Zina Hitz: "It's a wonderful play... keep rereading. They never completely give up their goods."
Deacon Harrison Garlick: "We've covered a lot of ground, I think. So I'm delighted."
Resources and Further Engagement
Listeners interested in exploring "The Clouds" and other Great Books can visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for additional guides, articles, and resources. To connect with Dr. Zina Hitz, visit xenahits.net or follow her on Twitter.
Next Episode Preview: Join us next week as we venture into Aristophanes' "The Frogs" with guest Tish Oxenrider.
This summary captures the essence of the conversation between Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Zina Hitz, highlighting their exploration of Aristophanes' "The Clouds," its themes, character portrayals, and modern-day implications. Notable quotes with timestamps provide depth and authenticity, ensuring that the summary remains informative and engaging for both regular listeners and newcomers.