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- [00:00]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Today on Ascend the Great Books podcast we are joined by Tish Oxenrider to discuss the Frogs by Aristophanes. The play tells the comedic story of Dionysus deciding all the new tragic poets are terrible. So he travels to Hades to bring back Euripides to help save Athens from her moral decay. Once in Hades, Dionysus has several adventures which includes hosting a poetry contest between Aeschylus and Euripides to see who is the best tribunal tragedy in. Personally, I really liked this play. I found it really funny at moments. I also really liked Aristophanes view that the playwright is a teacher of morality, a teacher of the polis. For those who don't know Tish Oxenrider, she is wonderful. She's an author, blogger and podcaster. I was on her podcast a while back to discuss Acadia and the Love of Eros. It was a wonderful conversation and today we have a high level friendly chat about the frogs and our love of the great books in general. So join us today for an enjoyable conversation on Aristophanes, the Frogs. Welcome to Ascend the Great Books Podcast. My name is Deacon Harrison Garlick. I'm a husband, father and serve as a chancellor and general counsel for the Roman Catholic Diocese of Tulsa. We're recording tonight on a beautiful evening here in rural Oklahoma. You can check us out on Twitter or X, YouTube, Facebook and Patreon. Thank you to all our supporters who also have access to all kinds of guides and articles, et cetera, on the Great books. You can check all that out@thegreatbookspodcast.com where we have a nice little library of guides and articles. And today we are discussing the Frogs, My Aristophanes, and we're discussing it with a guest. Today we have on Tish Ochsenrider, who is the author of several books including Notes from a Blue the Art of Living Intentionally in a Chaotic World and At Home in the Reflections on Belonging while Wandering the globe. She also has a podcast called A Drink with a Friend, which I have been on and had a wonderful conversation and a letter to which you can subscribe on her website tishauxenrider.com and she is currently teaching English to high schoolers. Welcome, Tish.
- [02:27]
Tish Oxenrider
Hello. It's good to be with you tonight.
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Deacon Harrison Garlick
You have a lot. I mean you have like a. You have website, podcasts, books, you have.
- [02:34]
Tish Oxenrider
A lot going on, a lot of little things. Right? And I don't do them all at the same time. Like you and I were just saying beforehand that I take the Summer off the Internet or I am this year. So you know, I take one hat off, I put another one on. So it sounds full and it is, but it's not insanely busy or anything.
- [02:50]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Yeah. Taking like fasting from the Internet over the summer. I. God bless you. That is a, that's a wise move. I don't know if I'm there yet. I think I'm too addicted. I've given up almost everything except X. That's the problem. But then I've like convinced myself that it's good because I'm like, no, I'm teaching people about Jesus. Like I'm posting good things. So I convinced myself I have to check it 300 times a day to find out what's going on.
- [03:11]
Tish Oxenrider
Well, you are, I will say because whenever I do get on it, X seems to know the algorithm. I get to see you and a few other favorites. And so, you know, there have been a few moments this summer that I have hopped on because of certain news worthy events and it's been fun to catch up and see what you are up to. And I look forward to being back in the fall. Honestly, there's something about taking those fasts that helps you put something in its rightful place, you know. So I look forward to returning in the fall when it's time and it'll come soon enough.
- [03:43]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Yeah, no, that's very good. So how did Tish Ochsenrider, which by the way, I know I've already told you this like three times, but I just love your name. You just, you just sound like you should be the protagonist in a great novel. Like, it's just wonderful, it's a wonderful name. But how did you know Tish Oxenrider come to fall in love with the great books?
- [03:59]
Tish Oxenrider
Well, it started when I was little and I just was an early reader and loved to read. That was my favorite pastime as a, as a kid and as a child. I wouldn't necessarily say I had elevated tastes or anything. I read a wide variety of books from classics to, you know, mainlining the babysitters club. So I wasn't exactly, you know, a highbrow child or anything. But it did lead me to love to then write, which led me to eventually become an English major in college. And I just went to a state school. I went to the University of Texas, which was a good enough experience for the time in the 90s. But I graduated feeling pretty burned out by the whole enterprise, the literary enterprise. I think perhaps it was the way it was presented to me. So that after that, for a season, I just, I don't want to say I stopped reading, but I just, I didn't necessarily devour it like I used to. It stopped being my first love when it came to at least how I spent my, my, my time. But I can look back and see that it was honestly becoming apparent. That really reignited for me a love for good stories and recognizing what it is that is hardwired in us to. To be drawn to stories and drawn to the written word and why, why good stories matter and not settling and all those things. So one thing led to another. I started writing again, which leads me to want to read more, which as we homeschooled our kids, it led me to find what are the best available for my own kids, which led me to teaching a whole classroom of juniors and seniors in high school. That led me to wanting to find what was the best for them. And here we are. You know, I'm still learning every day and, and, and finding new ones. And I can't imagine, I can't imagine being who I am or knowing God the way I do without, without these classics.
- [05:56]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
What was like, what's one of your favorite children's books? Like one of your favorite children's books that you've read to your kids?
- [06:01]
Tish Oxenrider
Winnie the Pooh. We still read them. I, whenever I teach, whenever I teach upper level British literature to my, my juniors and seniors, I. We will, every couple novels we read will do some Winnie the Pooh stories because they're so well written. They thread that needle of identifying with a child and how a child thinks but does not talk down to a child. That means the adults find it hilarious. In fact, I feel like they're usually read too young. Well, not too young, but they're stopped too early because, you know, my, my daughter in college reads Winnie the Pooh and Elizabeth. I give Winnie the Pooh as a college graduation gift to my high school students.
- [06:40]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
I mean, yeah, so no, I completely agree with you. I don't know when I read Winnie the Pooh because I didn't grow up with classical literature as like a child. And so that foray has come with having my own children. And so, I don't know. We bought the like, omnibus for Winnie the Pooh a few years ago and I was like reading it and my exposure was really Disney. I think that's it. And I just found myself like laughing a lot. I realized like this, there's a lot in here that's like, for the adults, like, this is hilarious. My kids are like, why, why is that funny? And I was like, well, you know, so I actually. No, I, I'm glad you said that because I actually really enjoy reading that to my kids. I probably, they're pretty young right now, so I actually probably enjoy it more than they do.
- [07:21]
Tish Oxenrider
I feel like my kids really started to appreciate it about age 10, 11, they, they actually started understanding the jokes. So, yeah, don't stop reading Winnie the Pooh.
- [07:29]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Yeah, well, that's a good segue. Right, the comedy into our discussion for the day on Aristophanes Frog. So maybe just like some brass. Aristophanes was born around 446 BC. He was a citizen of Athens and is known as the father of comedy. He wrote over 40 plays, but only 11 have come down to us today. He was a contemporary of Socrates, which is something I have to keep in mind because we're going to read Plato next, but we've already overlapped. Like these are people that are actually living with Socrates, actually including him in their plays. And that's something that hard to keep in mind, I think, from a historical standpoint. But these guys lived at the same time. So his humor, you know, his humor can be crude, but like the tragedians, his comedy has a purpose, which I find very fascinating. Aristophanes arguably saw himself as a teacher and his plays amongst the humor carry a lesson. He dies around 386 BC. I have to say, I'm new to Aristophanes and it took me a little bit to shift from the tragedies into what Aristophanes was trying to do into his comedy. I mean, where did you come along, like in your own journey to have an appreciation of Aristophanes?
- [08:40]
Tish Oxenrider
Well, I wouldn't necessarily say I've had a long standing appreciation for honestly the Greek plays in general because like I said earlier when I was first presented to them in college, it was not classically. And so I initially did the run through, like, I gotta get these done because they're required, right? So the class on, on Lyrical Poets, I was just like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I grew an appreciation for them whenever I started teaching my kids classically and recognizing, you know, the spine of history and working through things chronologically and how, you know, we build on, on things in the great conversation that things talk back and forth. Well, where did Homer get where, what he's writing about, what did Shakespeare, you know, and so we have to understand where things fall. And so revisited dusted off some of those Greek thinkers and playwrights and grew an appreciation for them. Again, as, as a mom, more than anything, as a parent who cared about presenting truth, goodness and beauty to my own children. Aristophanes is. I like him if you know what he's trying to do. You know, if you don't try and put him on par with what Homer's trying to do or even what Sophocles or these other guys are trying to do, if you recognize that he's gotten a different agenda, then you can kind of take off that hat of like trying to find something and just be okay with finding what it is he wants you to find. And I think we can still find some application in our, in our modern lives to it, because. Because I did extract some, some good things from my reread of Frogs because it has been probably, I want to say 20 years since I last read it. I did not remember very much, so it was, it was nice to get an excuse to reread it.
- [10:35]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Yeah. So I have to admit, playing my cards here that I'm a first time reader of the Frogs. The comedies were not part of my own great books formation. And so this was, it was very much new to me. What I found fascinating is I. Because the Frogs was actually the first one I read. I read it before the clouds. And what I found somewhat fascinating is I think maybe from reading so many tragedies, like, I'm trying to like, pay attention to all little details and like, what's the lesson? You know, because that's what Aeschylus, you know, habituated me to, right? You got to pay attention to all these details and like, there's a deep lesson here. And so I think, like, I wasn't really in the mood to even laugh when I read it because I was like, that's. But then what I found out is, like, later, I think it was my daughter or someone asked me, oh, well, what was that play about? And in trying to describe to her what the play is about, I laughed a lot, right? It's like, oh, well, you know, there's Dionysus and et cetera. And so I thought that was really kind of a fascinating point. It was trying to allow Aristophanes to teach. Because the other thing too then is like the purpose of comedy here. Like, I'm not sure, I'm not sure how much we associate comedy with teaching a lesson. Like I guess we would on like political satire, like some, some types of satire. But he very clearly, particularly in this play, in the Frogs, he very clearly presents that the poets are teachers. I mean, that's A. That's a. That's a pretty strong motif, I think, on the overall plot. But he trying then, I think, at least for me, transitioning from the tragedians to Aristophanes, trying to then understand who is Aristophanes the teacher was a little bit difficult.
- [12:07]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah, well, you know, I think I've heard it said before that comedians are the truth tellers of a culture, Right? They're the ones, quote, allowed to say true things that perhaps others in polite society cannot say. And so if you consider what he's trying to do here by actually saying, the poets are. Are saying truer things than the gods, right? Or they are the ones that have the. The divine inspiration that we should listen to. And he. He was one of the first. He might be the first. I don't remember if he created this motif, but he breaks the fourth wall, right, by talking to the audience. And if you consider what this was for, this was for a con. A contest for the feast of Dionysus. And he was presenting a play, kind of throwing shade to those sitting in the audience because of where Athens was at the time, right? Athens was kind of on the decline, and a bunch of the greats had died, right? Sophocles actually had died after the original writing of Frogs. And he added Sophocles here and there, as I mentioned. But Euripides had died. Yeah, Aeschylus had died. And so he's pointing out, like, we're culturally on the decline, guys, and so things are so bad. Like, none of the. My fellow playwrights here that are in this contest are good enough that we have to actually go down to Hades and resurrect our great. So we actually have to go back to our past to kind of renew our culture. And I don't know, I think there's some truth to that.
- [13:50]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Yeah, no, I love how you. You set that up because it's funny, because, yeah, it has this veneer of, like, a really funny premise, right? So, like, all the new playwrights are terrible. Dionysus has to go down to Hades and go bring back, you know, Euripides. But, yeah, then at the same time, I appreciate the context because, yeah, Aeschylus is just not Aeschylus. Euripides has just died. Sophocles has just died. We're right at the tail end of the Peloponnesian War as well. And so things are not going very well for Athens, right? So they've gone from this massive civilization to looking like they're going to lose, you know, this war. And so yeah. Underneath then this kind of funny, comical narrative of, like, Dionysus going down. It's as I. As I took it is the. One of the teachings there is that he is trying to bring back, you know, the playwright Euripides. That's his original intention to then teach Athens. Like, Athens has fallen into moral decay. Someone has to do this. So it has this, like, really strong emphasis that, like, the poets are actually teachers and someone has to be able to come back and teach Athens. Like, who they are.
- [14:58]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah, yeah. It actually, you know, you have to remember those who you. Whose shoulders you stand on. You know, these are the beloved poets of this place, this culture, and they've lost them. And so if you. If you could transpose. I don't even know. I'm so out of it culturally now. But, you know, if you were to. If you were to transpose some, you know, great actor of our time that has since passed away, and you think, where are the, you know, the Jimmy Stewarts of this era? That kind of thing. It's that equivalent, right? Like, we need to resurrect these greats so that we remember good art. And we. And good art can actually. It does something to us. Us. You know, it's not just passive entertainment. And, you know, this is all within the guise of a pretty slapstick comedy. So this isn't exactly even highbrow by his own standards. You know, he's. I don't think he's even saying. I think he's. He's kind of throwing himself under the bus here, sort of, you know, saying, I'm no Sophocles, I'm no Euripides. I. And. And so he's not necessarily just pointing fingers at his fellow contestants. He's. He's pointing his finger at himself, too.
- [16:08]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Yeah. Because I wonder there, you know, like, one question I would have is, you know, is he telling us that comedy can't teach the same way that tragedies can? Because, like, obviously he's a teacher, right? So here he could teach if he thinks Athens needs a lesson. So then the interesting thing here is that, you know, do we miss that? Because what he's telling us is that we need to resurrect one of these old playwrights to come back and teach Athens a moral lesson. But that in and of itself is a moral lesson, right. That we've fallen into. Declare. Into decay and that we need one. So it's interesting because we just don't. Comedy, even when it seems to have a purpose, doesn't seem to be the Same level of vehicle for a serious subject. But he seems to very much be trying to teach us something here. I think if we're listening.
- [16:55]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah, I mean, I think it's the equivalent of some comedies we can think of now that are just kind of smart. Maybe you know, like a Wes Anderson or something of that nature. Like, I mean it's not just mindless. It, I mean there's some mindless comedy in it and some seventh grade boy jokes, you know, the equivalent of such. But there's perhaps some heart in it too. And he is, he, you know, we, we do end with a little bit of the. Not just like a feel good story because it's not that, but there is, you know, especially at the end where they're weighing their words. You know, there's something to be taken away from that. You know, I, maybe I'm jump, maybe I'm jumping the gun there. But yeah, you know, they, they, they go back and forth, they make fun of each other's pro or poetry again and again and finally they're just like, like we're going to put our words literally on scales and see who's way more so, you know, that's a funny way to end a comedy really.
- [17:48]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Yeah, it is. I have, I don't know if you've seen it, but I usually on Sundays we have like family movie and I think like all the movies that we watch are like movies that were made before I was born and we recently watched the 1930s Robin Hood.
- [18:06]
Tish Oxenrider
Have you ever seen Errol Flynn?
- [18:08]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Yeah, it is, it's hilarious. Like it's really, really like. So it's, it's worth watching because I was like, I don't know how this is gonna be because sometimes those, the movies that are that old are like the, the drama's like over the top. Like the acting, which this one had some of that, but like the wit because they're pulling if I understand correctly from like Howard Pyle's like Robin Hood, which is like this very quick witted character and they really captured that excellently in the movie. And so it's like this movie and it has like these themes in it, you know, just like, you know who's the real king and like do we follow an unjust law and et cetera. But then like the merry men are just skewering each other left and right with all of this like, you know, these quips and barbs and it was really again I found myself like laughing. My kids are like, why are you laughing so much? I was like that was a funny joke, like, but it's, like, really funny. But it also has lessons in it. But I was trying to think of, like, something recently had made me laugh that at the same time, I thought had a good. A good point to it. But if you look for family movies, that 1930s Robin Hood is actually really good. It's in color now.
- [19:03]
Tish Oxenrider
That's good to know. We have a chalkboard on our. In our main living space where we. If we remember a movie like, oh, we need to show the kids this, we'll write it down. Because, you know, whenever you have family movie night, you come to that, like, what do we watch? And then you just spend half the time deciding what to watch. So we'll have to look into that because we've been adding more and more old movies. Like, let's. Let's see if we can watch a movie from before we were born. Because we have a gap in our. In our cultural knowledge as well. And there's some really good things out there. So I'll have to keep that in mind.
- [19:32]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Yeah, we have a list. We have a list as well. And if we can't decide on the list, then we default to either one of the extended Lord of the Rings or a John Wayne movie. Those are our two family defaults. So those are good. Yeah, so just some. Just some, like, brass tacks things. I think we already mentioned most of these, but those who like the dates. So the Frogs was first performed in Athens in 405 BC and actually received first place. So some people might remember about the clouds. You talked earlier about breaking the fourth wall. You know, the clouds did not win first place. And so he rewrote it. And so that's a funny thing with the fourth wall break. Right. Because he's actually chastising the judges throughout that. But this one did win first place, like you mentioned. You know, it tells the comedic story of Dionysus deciding that all the new tragic poets are terrible. So he travels to Hades to bring back Euripides to save Athens from her moral, the K. So before we get into the text itself, what translation are you using?
- [20:25]
Tish Oxenrider
I am using Stephen Hallowells. Hallowells from Oxford. And it's definitely an easy read. His translation is very modern, and so I appreciate it, especially if someone who feels intimidated by it. I will say it is not for children, maybe is a way to put it. He translate. He translates the jokes to include some profanity and some blunt information. I don't know quite know how to say that otherwise, but it's still well, well written. What. What are you reading?
- [21:05]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Well, so I'm gonna have the other end of the spectrum. So this is something I've learned about comedy is that the translations matter even more than the tragedies. Because the two things that I've come to understand is one, if you don't have a really literal translation, then you miss all the puns. And like. So when my. I mentioned this, I think previously, but my. When my Sunday Great Books group read the Clouds, we could not even agree at the very beginning on the basic narrative because half the guys had like a paraphrase and the other guys had a very literal. And the guys that had a paraphrase missed a lot of the jokes. The other thing too that I've come to understand is that the older translators, like the 1950s ones, intentionally muted a lot of Aristophanes vulgarities. So now like I've come to understand that however I read the old School, like 1950s Great Books of Western World series. So now I've like, now I'm really worried that I basically read like the kids version of. Because you were talking about like, because you were talking about crude jokes and, and like curse words. And I was like, oh man, I don't remember any of that in the frogs. I remember it in the clouds. Because in the clouds I read Aerosmith's translation. I didn't read it out of this. And so now I'm like, oh no, I ran. I accidentally read the muted version.
- [22:22]
Tish Oxenrider
Well, it was, you know, it didn't make me blush or anything like that. It wasn't to the point where I felt the need to skip around. It's just nothing to that effect. It just was very blunt, perhaps is. Is the right way to put it, you know, so if you're just reading along and oh goodness, you know, like, I mean, if I were teaching this in my class, I would opt for a different translation. Let's just say that so that I didn't have a bunch of giggling 17 and 18 year olds, you know, but otherwise it's, it's well written.
- [22:49]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Yeah, yeah, I think it'd be me. I, I'm probably glad that I didn't try and read this as an adolescent. That probably just would not have actually gone well.
- [22:56]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [22:58]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
So let's, let's look at the text itself. So we've kind of set it up right. So I think my understanding of the basic premise as we've mentioned is Dionysus Dec, that there are no good playwrights anymore. Athens is falling into moral decay. So therefore, he needs to go down in the Hades. And his original intent is to bring back Euripides. And so he brings in his slave with him, Xanthus. Right. And so, you know, what I found really interesting about this, like, where they go and they go to Hercules is like, one of the things I had to remember as I was reading this is there's a few things in here that are, like, very hackneyed now. Like, they're not. They're not funny anymore because they've been done so much, right? That trope is just. It's been beaten. But then you have to remember, like, he's creating this. This is so. These, like, these things that we have that like. Oh, yeah, that's comedy. So when he, like, at the very beginning here, when he goes to, like, Hercules, and he's like, I have to go down to Hades, and Hercules is, like, telling him, like, oh, well, you know, you could hang yourself, right? There's like all these, like. It's like, okay, come on. But then you realize, like, oh, he's the one that, like, invented these types of back and forth. Like, he really is the father of comedy.
- [24:14]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah, yeah. Some of this comes from, you know, this time period. You know, we're talking 4th, 5th century before Christ. So this is old, old comedy. But it reads kind of Abbott and Costello. Ish, right? Very back and forth, you know, even the parts. Maybe this is jumping the gun, too. But he and Xanthius swap disguise, right? They're going back and forth of someone being dressed up. And then, you know, when Dionysus is dressed and bad things happen to him, then he's like, oh, I don't want to be dressed like this anymore. I'm gonna give it to my slave. And then when Xanthius is dressed like that, he gets, you know, invited to a feast, and he wants it back, you know, and that feels so tired or, you know, like, uncreat. But if you consider that this is perhaps where this idea came from, then it's actually pretty creative.
- [25:07]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
That was the. I think there's, like, two moments when I read it the first time that actually made me laugh out loud. And one of them was that where they're like. Because it gets down to Hades, right? And everyone's upset with him because he looks like Hercules, he dresses like Hercules, and everyone's upset with him because Hercules has already had, you know, his 12 labors. And so. Which is a phenomenal little myth if you're. If the listeners aren't familiar with it. That's another good myth to read to kids, actually, the 12 labors. And so, you know, he's already gone down and he had taken Cerberus, right, the three headed dog. And so everyone's mad that he had gone down there and done these things. So Dionysus is dressed like Hercules. And I did laugh, like this whole, like everyone gets angry at him and so he tells his slave, like, oh no, trade clothes with me. And so then here come all like the virgin girls, they're inviting you to a feast. And the slave is like, oh yes, of course, like I did make me laugh. The other thing too that's really interesting about this is you could not have a greater juxtaposition between this and Euripides Bacchae. So if I don't know if you're familiar with that play or not, but we read it this year as part of our kind of like, you know, foray into the Greek plays. And that's Euripides play on Dionysus. And I was actually really interested, I was trying to do some background research and how much did that play inform this one? Right, so here's Dionysus going to go find Euripides. But I wasn't able to get an answer because Euripides dies and the Bacchae is actually then published the same year the frogs comes out.
- [26:41]
Tish Oxenrider
Oh my goodness.
- [26:41]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
And so I don't know which one came first. And so I'm sure someone listening knows that answer. Please comment, share, etc. Because I was interested to see, you know, whether or not the Bacchae informed this. Because in the Bacchae Dionysus is cruel. I mean he, he, his portrayal is almost demonic. I mean, because he's, he's without mercy. He goes to Thebes and basically he just perverts all of these natural relationships and brings violence. Just kind of unnatural bestial release. And he is very much not the jovial little wine God that we see in Homer. Or if you remember in Homer, like Dionysus. I don't remember the whole story, but he like, he's scared of a mortal and he like runs away and hides under like thetis skirt or whatever. It's like a comical little scene in Homer and like that's a Dionysus that's actually back here, but it's not the one that we see like in the Bacchae. So it's really interesting me to compare those two.
- [27:41]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah, I've actually never read that, so I couldn't compare. But I do know that Aristophanes was a huge fan of Euripides and that this is basically him paying tribute to him. So I wouldn't be surprised if he at least took some form of inspiration from how he crafted the characters and maybe put a spin on it or, you know, offered up. Here's the comedic version of something that was a great tragedy. I'm not sure that's interesting to think about, though.
- [28:08]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Well, if you ever want to revisit Plato Symposium, I think that there's a lot of things playing off of Euripides Bacchae there, because in the Symposium, as you know, Dionysus haunts that whole dialogue, and Alcibiades comes in at the end as a Dionysian figure. Right. He has the laurels, he has the flute curls, he has his bacchae. It's. Those two are read usually often together. It was actually reading commentaries on Symposium that then led me to go back and read the Bacchae. It's like. It's almost like all these texts are in conversation with one another, and it's almost like they're all talking and having these perennial truths. It's like they're great or something kind of funny.
- [28:44]
Tish Oxenrider
Right, right, right. We should probably look into that. Yeah, No, I think it's really. Oh, the other thing that I think is funny and interesting is just even calling this Frogs. I don't know if you were going to get there, but frogs barely. Barely shows up here. You know, frogs. There's a chorus of frogs and they. They sing and we never see them again. And my. My kids laughed when they first heard I was rereading Frogs because. Not a fan of frogs in real life. They are not my favorite. And so they found it humorous that I was going to read about the frogs, and I, you know, told them, guys, this really. This is not about frogs at all. So I think it's interesting that Aristophanes even did that. And to me, I see that kind of version of comedy now still, when we just kind of allude to something or we just barely have some kind of interjection of something interesting. And yet, you know, a comedy is called it. I'm trying to think of an example. I should have thought of one before we started chatting. That happens. But that still happens now, you know, where you just kind of nod at something or almost have an Easter egg in it.
- [29:51]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Right. Yeah. How he names his plays is really fascinating because even, like, in the clouds, you know, it's one of those things where, like, halfway through you're like, wait, why is this name the Clouds. And you kind of get to the characters and you're like, wait, but who are they? And then you have to kind of figure out. I mean, that was like kind of a. Almost a blood on the floor conversation in my own little like Sunday small group, which was like, wait, who are the clouds? And the Socrates agree with them or not agree with them. And so he seems to like these kind of somewhat nebulous titles. Right? So Dionysus here is very much. He's comical because he seems to make all the wrong decisions. Like very clearly his slave seems to be smarter than he is. That's right. And so the slave's like running interference, like trying to get these things. And so at that scene, right, the slave has to like run around because he's not allowed on the boat for whatever reason. And so the. Because the frogs are popping up and what is that? The River Styx. They're sitting there and I was trying to explain to. It's funny you mentioned that because my kids asked me too, my oldest did, about like the frogs. Like, what's it about? I was like, well, there are frogs. I was like, it's kind of like, you know, like a little Mermaid. Like the old school Little Mermaid. The frogs are like singing in a lagoon. That's like a scene. And that's all they do. They have this one scene and it annoys him and then they kind of move on.
- [31:08]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah. And I think it's kind of a fun little, just historic bit of info, you know, a historic little tidbit to even see how the frogs talk. In ancient Greek, you know, we say ribbit and that makes way less sense than Breche Kekex, which is what, you know, Aristophanes has the frog say. And you read that and you think, what? Then you're like, wait, that actually sounds more like a frog than ribbit. But yeah, anyway, I, I just found that I. You know, when you think about it, you know, at first it's like, what. Why is it called frogs? But if you step back and think of it, it's actually kind of funny. So. Yeah, I like how he did that.
- [31:44]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
No, it is, but he just like. Because even like when they get to the other side, there's like this scene in which it's where he's like scaring him about the monster, right?
- [31:55]
Tish Oxenrider
Oh, yeah, yeah. That was my first encounter with a. A bathroom joke. Let's just leave it as that. It's like, is that what it says? Is that what I think it says? And then I checked in the notes like, yep, it's what I thought it said.
- [32:11]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
So yeah, yeah, it's kind of weird. It is a, it is an interesting juxtaposition. My translation of the clouds made it more explicit. But where you're reading these things and trying to read deeply into them and like pull out like, okay, I know there's a lesson here. And all of a sudden you just get hit with some type of, you know, bathroom joke and you're like, wait, that can't be. Then at first, like the first time I read it, it's like, that can't be what that actually is. That's me being, you know, like that's my own unformed mind or something. Right? And like, nope, that's actually what that is.
- [32:39]
Tish Oxenrider
So actually what that is. Yeah, yeah. Which to me, I mean, maybe that's something to unpack at some point. Like, what does that mean about, about a well formed mind? And, and even great poets of, of back then still, you know, I don't know, I don't know. I find it interesting. I don't know. I, I, I can read over it. But you know, part of me feels a little like, oh, come on, grow up. But then part of me thinks, well, I guess there are people who laugh at this. So I, you know, perhaps, perhaps it's, it's for the right audience.
- [33:13]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
It is really funny to think about because how we view the classical Greeks and so, you know, you have like this architecture. You have, I mean, just even think about, I was thinking about this the other day, the amount of culture that came out of that short period of time. So we've read like all these playwrights. You have, you have Aeschylus, you have Euripides, you have Sophocles. Now you have Aeschylus. And then like right there, laid on top of each other, you have Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, not to mention then like Alexander the Great, like, so there's like this just. Absolutely. Which, you know, I'd probably make some arguments this providentially. There's this like rush of culture and this is how we kind of think of them, right? So here's a Socratic life and they just got, they're in the middle of this basically what their world war is, right? The Peloponnesian War. And then they're all like, and you imagine them on their like togas or whatever, like laughing at a fart joke. It took me a bit to like really get this right. Or like even the clouds when like there's really clearly a masturbation joke and it like goes on for a long time, and you're like, did this really do it? Like, this was. This was like. Like, you just imagine, like, the whole audience is just, like, reeling in this. In. In the. Between them getting, like. What's funny, though, is, like. Then it's juxtaposed with the fact that we're suffering moral decay. Yeah, right. So it's kind of an interesting. It was. It was an interesting combination of humors that we typically don't see today, or at least I'm not well versed enough in comedies to think of, like, an example of where we do this today. Maybe south park, actually, Maybe south park, now that I think about it.
- [34:44]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah.
- [34:44]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Because south park can be insanely crude to the nth degree, but typically, there's. It's a satire. They're typically skewering some type of, like, social thing. So that's actually. No, that. That. I like that. Analog.
- [34:58]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah. Yeah. Perhaps he was the. I don't even remember the name of those two guys. Trey Parker and somebody. He's. He's the Trey Parker of ancient Greece. It kind of reminds me, and I'm not quite sure if exactly this isn't a literal, you know, reference to something like this, but it reminds me anyway of when C.S. lewis talked about how whenever he was in the war, that he thought, you know, beforehand, when I'm in the trenches, it's just going to be all war all the time. But he said, you know, the closer he got to the trenches, the less the soldiers even talked about the war. And they just talked about stories and told jokes and played card games because they were so close to the front. So I wonder if there's some sort of correlation there because of the challenges with the Peloponnesian War and Athens, like, just at that precipice of are we going to survive or not, that perhaps there's some lightness that actually is all the more appreciated.
- [35:57]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
No, I like that a lot. Yeah. Is there so much stress currently and. And probably even an existential dread that these little things are just a release? They're a relief? No, I like that a lot. Particularly putting in its context.
- [36:13]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
- [36:16]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
The. So my understanding then is when they. When they get to this, like, how this is set up in Hades, is that. So you have Pluto or Hades himself, and there's, like, a table, and, like, if you're the best at whatever craft you are, you get to sit at the head table. So all the people that are the, you know, peak people here. And so Aeschylus has reigned and sat in this seat for the poets and apparently Sophocles. I really liked your historical point there, that Sophocles might have just been shoehorned into this, because that's how I felt. Because, like, he's just kind of. He's like, he's just very. He's scattered and he doesn't, he doesn't bring a lot of weight. Like, if you remove Sophocles from the play, I don't think it changes it a whole lot. Right. But Sophocles apparently is deferential to Aeschylus, but then here comes Euripides and so now they're gonna. They're fighting over who should be at the top table with Pluto when Dionysus and his slave arrive.
- [37:11]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah. From what I understand historically, Aeschylus had. I don't remember when he died, but then Euripides wasn't too long ago when he died. And so when he wrote this. And so he wrote this as a tribute to Euripides. And then I don't even know if this was after. Well, it might have been before the contest that it won first place in. But then Sophocles had suddenly passed away. And so. Yeah, I think otherwise he probably would have perhaps even made this about Euripides vs Sophocles and not so much Aeschylus.
- [37:47]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Yeah, actually, that would have been really fascinating. Yeah. My understanding is that both Sophocles and euripides died in 406 BC, and then this was published in 405. So he probably had written it and then, you know, he's getting ready to do it and then Sophocles dies and then he shoehorns him in at certain sections. Because that's, that's very much how I felt. That would be interesting because if it were between Sophocles and Euripides as well.
- [38:16]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, that's, that's the scene of, of what's happening in, in Hades. And so the, the back and forthness is them just almost having an impromptu play within. I mean, kind of a play within a play, because Aristophanes is quoting both men directly in their works as they try to one up each other. You know, so he will. According to my notes anyway, the footnotes that, you know, this particular part is from one of Euripides plays or from one of Aeschylus plays. And so it's kind of that, that trope, that play within a play thing, you know, that we see in Hamlet and later on that's. That could be tired. But has Actually done well here. And it's not quite literally a play within a play, but it is because he's quoting. It's almost the equivalent of just quoting current events and making jokes about things the entire audience would get and understand. Kind of like what Dante does when he names people specifically, and not just types of people, but actual names. It's what he's doing here, too.
- [39:28]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
What did you take? It seems to me that in the back half, or back third of this play, Dionysus takes on a new character. Like, he. Like he has this. I mean, not. Maybe not fully, but there seems to be some level of, like, transformation for him because he's really just been making the wrong decisions the whole play to a. I mean, very clearly we're supposed to know that his slave is smarter than he is, or at least that's what I took away from it. Right. Which, again, after reading the Bacchae, it's a hard juxtaposition to go back to reading Dionysus as this, like, timid, goofy, jovial wine God that just kind of makes a bunch of mistakes. But then when he. He stepped into the judge role, outside of maybe being indecisive, I found him to actually be, you know, more. More what we would expect of a God. Right. So he sets us up. This is how we're going to solve this problem. There's just. There's a slight transformation there.
- [40:18]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah, yeah, we see that after a while when he's either getting tired of the back and forth between Euripides and Aeschylus or just us. I mean, a little bit of how I read it was he's hearing these great. Recite their words over him, and that's transforming him slowly. Like, I think a little bit of what Aristophanes is saying is these great works, they can transform us. So we've got this kind of dopey. Yeah. Guy at the beginning who just needs remembering, you know, remembering what their equivalent of truth and beauty can do. And so, yeah, we see a shift in Dionysus by the end to actually almost be the go between, you know, because he has to make the choice ultimately, who is he going to bring back and be more decisive and less all over the place.
- [41:11]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
I really liked. I liked the ending because. I mean, this ending part really, because I. I'm fascinated with the concept that the poets are teachers, and I'm fascinated that they see themselves like that. And it's interesting because Dionysus, then I would have to ask then, like, what is the role of Dionysus? Because all these plays are done in these feasts to him, right? They're part of this. It's hard for us to think about this. This is a civic but also religious contest, right? Those two aren't really separable in a lot of ways for the Greeks. And so if the poets then are teachers, that's what they're supposed to be doing. And apparently for Aristophanes, if we take him on his face, that includes being a teacher of morals, teachers of your identity. Who is Athens and how should an Athenian act? Then, if we accept that premise, which I think is very much, at least on its face, that's what we're getting here, right? These things are made explicitly true in several different ways. Comments? Then what is the role of Dionysus? Because it's his play, excuse me, it's his festival in which these plays are presented. So does that not mean that Dionysus is supposed to be the teacher of Athens, right? Or he's supposed to be a major force in teaching the Athenians, like, who they are and who they should be.
- [42:32]
Tish Oxenrider
I mean, we almost need to think through what does it mean to be a God at all in the Greek pantheon of gods, you know, are they our moral superiors or are they those who just need appeasing? Maybe sometimes. Sometimes they're our moral superiors. And they, you know, could teach us wisdom. You know, I think of certain ones that seem to, you know, Athena or and the like, but other times they seem to just be needing, almost like a child who needs their. Their not to have their way, but to just be sedated almost. And so maybe I. Maybe I didn't miss, or maybe I did miss something, but I kind of got the. The idea that Dionysi's. Dionysus here is. Is satisfied by the end, because he was entertained or because he was. He sees that perhaps, I don't know, that the work of poetry has done its job of kind of renewing the minds of the audience, the Athenians listening in, but not necessarily himself. Maybe he was just sort of the conduit. I don't know. Maybe I'm missing something wrong. Or maybe I'm missing.
- [43:49]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
No, I mean, I don't think you are. I think it's something to parse out. I mean, this is one of the things that there's a thesis that's thrown out, right? The poets are teachers. But then when you actually try and apply it and you walk it back, then you have kind of have to ask, well, then, like what. What would Dionysus be in this setting. And it seems like just by that premise, that he must be, you know, a teacher of teachers. He must be the one that that festival is really forming the moral foundation of who Athens is, because there must be a purpose to it from Dionysus standpoint, because that's why Dionysus is the main character in the play. Right. So the other playwrights aren't doing this well. But then you juxtapose that with a Dionysus that constantly makes the wrong decision. He's goofy, he's jovial. So it's like, well, then who. Who is he? What is he supposed to be doing? And I agree with you. You know, the Greek gods, you know, they just have very. You know, they're creatures. They're creatures inside of time, but they're also. They have very imploded personalities. Right. They're very inward focused. And I can't, you know, if you took the thesis that then the Dionysian festival is supposed to be a center of culture, it's supposed to be a movement for civilization. Right. It's a civilizing force. I realize I keep coming back to this, but that could not be any more contrasted with the Bacchae, because by the end of the Bacchae, Thebes has been destroyed, practically speaking, the families have been torn apart, mothers abandoned, their husbands and children run off into the woods. You know, a mother kills her child, like all the natural relationships implode. The family implodes, the state implodes, the police implodes under the weight of this Dionysian cult. So it's really interesting to me, as I kind of ponder this, that these are presenting, I think, two slightly different visions, or at least visions in contrast. And it's even more interesting to me that one of those come from the playwright that's in the play that comes from Euripides. And that's like, you know, if, you know, we were going to try and, you know, do another dive on this, that's like, something I'd really like to figure out is, like, which one of those plays came first? And is Aristophanes intentionally, like, riffing off of that because they just could not be more different.
- [45:56]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah, yeah. I did read somewhere that at this festival, the comedies followed the tragedies, that they kind of, you know, cap off the festival. So I wonder if there was some sort of. I don't know, I find it interesting that a Greek God could be as volatile. I mean, we. We see volatility all throughout, you know, all stories of the gods, but that there would be that much of a. Almost like a schizophrenic sort of personality on display with Dionysus, who could be. So from one extreme to the other, I'm not sure. That's really interesting, you know, kind of.
- [46:34]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Staying on this teaching theme. You know, they just like there's a few quotes from this section. Like he says, who is this speaking? This is Aeschylus. I gotta apologize right now because mine does not have line numbers. He says, but we the poets are teachers of men. We are bound things, honest and pure to speak. And there's actually like half a dozen of these quotes in here about that. The poets are teachers. And so it's really interesting here then in this context to see that there is a cultural acknowledgment that these poets are our teachers. Because then there has to be some next level critique, which I think is what we see explicitly in Plato of okay, great, what are the lessons that they teach? And like, one of the things that I had here is like, you know, Dionysus goes back to Euripides, but Euripides is, is still somewhat presented as he represents something new. He's still newer. Right. And I thought it was really interesting if we're going to try and unpack, like what is Aristophanes actual purpose here, that then he can. He contrasts this with Aeschylus, who is very much of the old. And he lays down Euripides and picks up Aeschylus and says, never mind, I'm taking you back to teach Athens. Like, you know what, like what is the lesson there?
- [48:00]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah, one of the reasons I do like frogs is because it's an early form of literary criticism, right. It's, it's actually going back and revisiting the stories that these Athenians know. And to me, you know, thinking of poets as teacher, our modern equivalent is poets, but also just storytellers, right? It's our stories that are our greatest teacher. And I can see why. Right. Just from a personal level, we remember stories well. We're made first story God. God has put us in his great story. And so we're hardwired for this. I, I start all my classes at the beginning of the school year in a discussion of why do we need stories and why are they not. Why are they essential? It, it's sort of, you know, one of the illustrations I give my, my students is just like in a homily. How often a week later do you not remember the theological points that were made, but you remember some story told in the homily. So you Remember, you know, the illustration that the priest gave in his, in the homily, but you don't remember the finer points he was making. And it's, there's something actually in us that relies on stories as a primary vehicle for teaching us, you know, and so that's why when we, when we parent, it's so much more effective to tell your, your kid the story of how you fell off your, you know, skinned your knee versus just telling them to be careful when they ride a bike because of reasons A, B and C, you know, so it's part of our DNA. And so I think, I think Aristophanes is hitting on something here by reminding Athens of their own stories that they, they know backwards and forwards because this is part of their zeitgeist.
- [49:53]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
I like that a lot. You know, I think, because even if I remember correctly, you know, St. Thomas Aquinas will talk about this because this is kind of a big juxtaposition. We're reading narratives here. We're reading poetry, right? We're reading these dramas. And then it's really fascinating that Plato decides to then write philosophy as a drama, right? The father of philosophy writes it as a drama, as a story. You know, it's said that Plato burned all of his plays when he met Socrates and then. But he takes that poetic skill and still plays it out. And so Thomas Aquinas will talk about, if I remember correctly, that Christ and Socrates are the greatest of teachers because they don't even write. They're actually engaged in dialogue with people. And then the second greatest teachers are those that are communicating via narratives, via stories. Because you think if Socrates and Christ are really the two sources by which we have this very unique Western culture, not only do they both don't write, but then both of their second generation communicate their truth in stories, right? We have the dialogues and we have the Gospels, and Christ then also teaches in story, right? The parables and things like this. So I really. And then, you know, after that, then you get into those that then try and, you know, you know, bring out the lessons like you write like Aristotle or you write to a certain degree, like St. Paul, right? You're actually just pulling out the principles from those narratives to teach people, like, directly. So I, like, as I've grown older, I have very much come to appreciate being able to be taught via narrative. And also because you're a writer, like, how hard it is to actually teach via narrative. It's a lot more difficult, I think, to write a narrative that then doesn't sound Terrible and doesn't sound like it's teaching. And you can actually see how hard this art form is by the fact that we really haven't had anyone be successful in writing dialogues since Plato.
- [51:55]
Tish Oxenrider
Right.
- [51:55]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Like all philosophy comes out of these stories and then no one else can really replicate it because it seems so cheap.
- [52:01]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah, yeah. If they're doing it, they're just doing a copy of, of Plato and his. And his methods, for sure. No, I personally, I'm currently writing fiction for the first time. I'm writing a novel. And I will say, oh, well, thanks. But I will say after publishing a number of nonfiction, it is infinitely harder to write fiction. And I think there's something, there's some truth to that of this idea of. And we know from personal experience when we are being told a story that we know is being told just for its moral, you know, for its. The, the moral at the end of it. Or, you know, it's the equivalent of why a lot of movies are bad now because we can tell they've just got an agenda or even the, the bad Christian movies. Right. Because we can tell that they're just using a story as a vehicle to preach at us that there is, there is a very fine thread to weave here whenever it can be a, an epic tale full of truth about how we should live, but told well. And you don't feel preached at. I think, you know, it's, it's near impossible to do. Well, I think that's why Homer's still around, you know, because he, he managed to do it. And so when we, when we read these books and we, we see how they are still paying or read these plays, I mean, and they're still paying tribute to their own greats. You know, I just want to know what, what was it about these stories that resonated with them so much enough to where they want to literally go to Hades, resurrect them as a way of reminding Athens not just what's a good story, but who they are. You know, that's what a good story does.
- [53:48]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
I very much agree. And I've come to understand because when I first converted to Catholicism, it was St. Thomas Aquinas all the way. And really, because I hungered for structure. I hungered to like understand these things. And so there really wasn't any better way. But in Thomas defense, because you could say he's very dry and et cetera, Thomas tries to mimic this, right? I mean, his, the summa being written in this question answer format is actually mimicking the seminars and things that they had. And so he actually is still underneath that. Even though it can sound kind of feel very dry, he's still doing that. Very natural question answer. But then, as I've much of the chagrin of a lot of my Thomistic colleagues at the Chancery, the older I get, the more I've come to deeply appreciate Plato and I've come to deeply appreciate teaching and narrative. Just because, like, it's like when you read these great books to your kids, right, you read Winnie the Pooh or whatever, you can read them to a wide angel range and they're all pulling things out proportionate. So the good stories have these like, proportionate lessons. So you can ask your children, even adults, et cetera, what did you pull from that? And they're all reading the same thing, but they're pulling out different lessons that are proportionate to their own capacities. And only narratives can really do that. And I've just come to deeply appreciate that that's also how our Lord taught, right. In a way that's so simple, right? So he'll tell a parable and then you kind of can get it. Maybe I understand what's going on. But then there's like all these layers and the more you grow in your relationship with him, the more you're like pulling it out. So I know. I cannot imagine actually how hard it is to write fiction well and to.
- [55:28]
Tish Oxenrider
Bring it back to parenting, like you were just saying. I mean, how much better is it to impart onto your child the battle of good and evil? You know, do you give them the finer points of what's going on in the world at the wrong time? Or do you read to them Lord of the Rings, you know, which one of those will actually have that staying power of what does it mean to do that which you are called to do and to rise above? You know, all the lessons we can get from that. So, yeah, no, absolutely. I think, think, you know, and I have a good. One of my good friends, she's a big advocate for reading aloud for this reason, for what you were saying, because of the multi generational effect good stories can have on, on us that stories like this, you know, when I told my son, my, my middle son, he's 16, about the basic plot of frogs, he's like, oh, I want to read that so that, you know, these really great stories can. Aren't just for adults, aren't just for kids. They should be able to span ages and cultures and time periods enough to where we can enjoy them collectively. So, yeah, yeah, stories can do that.
- [56:42]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
I agree. You said something earlier, too, about this passage has literary criticism in it. I said earlier there are only two passages in this that made me really laugh out loud. The first time. The first time was the changing of clothes because apparently I still have seventh grade humor and I found that really funny. And then the. The second one, though, was this, because it was so clever. Where, if I remember. Correct me if I'm wrong on the details, but where Aeschylus basically tells Euripides that he can add this phrase about a bottle of oil to the ending of any of his openings, because Aeschylus has pegged that Euripides uses the same formula for all the openings of his play. And so I thought it was really funny because. Not because it's like funny too much like on its face, but rather simply because it actually does show that Aristophanes had a pretty strong and pretty significant critique of Euripides place and that he had paid attention to these things.
- [57:38]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah, I was actually going to bring that part up too. That was one of my more favorite parts because it actually has a couple of meanings to it. Right. It shows. It hints at his formulaic nature, not only in plot, but also in structure, which we kind of lose in translation. But it's the equivalent. And I did have it. Now I can't find it in my book. But it's the equivalent of. If you've ever heard, like, certain poets who, because of their cadence, you can sing. You can sing it to a song and they all sound the same. It's like. Like I remember hearing Emily Dickinson. You could read all her poems to the tune of Gilligan's island because she's got the same cadence. It's that idea. And so I've. And so what I've. What I've come to understand is that whenever he adds that phrase, what he's saying, it's all the same rhythm and repeat, you know, so it's like he's a one note. He's a one note. You know, he's. He tells the same story every time he sings the same song. Yeah. So it's a very funny way of doing it. That legitimately made me laugh out loud, too.
- [58:46]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Yeah, no, it was good. I mean, it also was much more enjoyable as we kind of enter this great conversation that I have. You know, we've. We've read Escalus, we've read Euripides. And so to see, like an ancient critique of these, I. I actually thought was really just enjoyable in general. The. Yeah, so Then we get a switch. So then he doesn't take Euripides back. He takes Aeschylus back, you know, and I, I, you know, we kind of played a few cards earlier on this, but yeah, it seems then, because Euripides is attached and I think in the clouds, if I remember correctly, in the clouds, Aristophanes also presents Euripides as, like, something new. Like he's, he's part of, like, the new tastes. And so it's really interesting here then, that Aristophanes, you know, has Dionysus take Aeschylus back, which didn't break my heart any. I really enjoyed reading the Oresteia and things like this nature. But then this gets into, like. Okay, well, then what. What really is the lesson of this play, which I realize it's always hard with Aristophanes to really parse this out, but if he's a teacher and he sees himself as a teacher, he's very clearly trying to teach us something. And so I think just on its face, which might be too simple, is that it does seem to be the old ways, Right? We have to go back to the old ways. When Aeschylus was riding, if my memory serves, Aeschylus actually fought at the Battle of Marathon. Aeschylus actually saw them, like, move from this, you know, from coming under this Persian attack and then going into the beginnings of this Athenian civilization, this Athenian empire. And it just seems like on its face that that's what, that's what Aristophanes is trying to point us towards, is that we have to go back and recover the old ways.
- [60:29]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah. If we could think of some sort of modern equivalent. I can think of one, but I'm trying to think of one that's a little more literary. Like if there was some. Oh, okay, so Cormac McCarthy passed away, right. A year or two ago. So if you imagine a play where the main character goes and in order to bring him back to life so that he could tell us another good story or so that, you know, we can remember the lessons he taught us, but while he's there, instead of bringing him, he ends up bringing Dostoevsky instead. Right? He ends up saying, like, actually, what we really need is the one that this author is standing on, you know, because we're actually all not just building on each other, but we have this foundation that if we don't remember what we're standing on, we're doomed to lose it. And so I, you know, and maybe a more modern y pop culture y way is perhaps, like, I don't know. Philip Seymour Hoffman, the actor died. Right. Let's say you go and get to retrieve him, but instead you get Cary Grant or something like that. It's that equivalent. That's what he's doing here. And so to me, there's some good life lessons there or cultural lessons there that we can take. You know, what does that mean to. To have to remember what matters when it comes to good art? Sure. But perhaps there's a deeper truth about the true things. You know, saying things in such a way that reminds us of something very true about ourselves.
- [62:00]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
I want to maybe throw out another theory that I read simply because after this, we're moving into Plato. So we'll have kind of an introduction to Plato and then the first dialogue we're going to read is Alcibiades. And, you know, we'll kind of get into him as a. As a character. But I thought it was interesting that one of the commentaries on this play held the thesis that the play is actually about Alcibiades. So if you remember, Alcibiades was, you know, this general of Athens, and at the moment he's exiled. And so there's this theory that actually this whole we need to go back to the old ways. We have to go back to what works, et cetera. Is this, like, esoteric calling that we have to go get Alcibiades back. And I'm not sure if I, like, take that, but there is a reference. They point to the fact that there is a reference in the play, towards the end there, of Alcibiades. So Aristophanes very clearly puts Alcibiades in everyone's mind and then starts talking about we have to go back to the old ways. And so I mention it because there's all kinds of theories about what Aristophanes wanted to do here. But I mention it because we're going. And we're going to read the play Alcibiades, who most people might not be familiar with. Right. But he's actually a pretty significant character during this time period.
- [63:12]
Tish Oxenrider
Interesting. I had no idea, honestly. I want to say I felt. Did I read even correctly, that Plato was here at this festival. Did you hear read that?
- [63:22]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
No, but that could be. I feel like. I feel like those myths always exist because I read that there was a story in the clouds that Socrates was in the audience and would, like, stand up and, like, wave or whatever, like when his character, you know, so. Because that's the thing we talked about earlier, like, there's an explosion of culture during this time period, and all these guys are living together, and it's just. It's really amazing to think about that. And then like, do a timeline of, like, what's happening at this time we're in around the whole world for all these other different cultures. And, like, something has changed here right there. It's just. There's such a fecundity here of thought and intellect. But then I think one thing too, that I've appreciated reading the plays is when you just jump into Socrates, you really start to think, like, how did this get. Like, how do we go from Homer to Socrates? Like, how. How did we go from like. Like this just seems like a huge jump. And I think reading the plays, one thing that's really caught my attention is because the playwrights are taking up a lot of philosophical ideas. It's not philosophy, but they're taking up perennial truths. Right. They're asking these questions. They're asking, for instance, in the Oresteia, what is justice? How do we actually apply justice? It makes much more sense then that. All of a sudden a character like Socrates pops up who's going to be asking these questions directly. And then a character like Plato who pops up that says, hey, I could write about this in a different format that actually is addressing the question itself. And so that's one thing I've really liked about reading the plays is it does they do really serve as an intellectual bridge between Homer and Plato.
- [64:53]
Tish Oxenrider
Interesting. Yeah. And you mean if you just picture the timeline, you know, as I'm picturing it too, that we're inching a little bit closer and closer towards Christ, that we see this movement in. You know, and you've talked about this before, I've seen online, that kind of intersection with Rome and Greece and Jerusalem, eventually, that these seeds are being planted. You know, if we can insert God into this timeline of knowing what he's doing, then we can see how he is forming this Greek culture to ultimately impact the rest of Western civilization in this way. Through this movement.
- [65:37]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Yeah. Greek reason coupled together with Hebrew faith under Roman order prepare the world for Jesus Christ. There's like these unique cultures now. I very much agree. Any. Any kind of last thoughts or comments or insights on Aristophanes, the Frogs?
- [65:51]
Tish Oxenrider
You know, I think the. The. Anytime I read one of these plays, especially if it's been a while, I'm reminded of how readable they are. And. And that. That's. That was a takeaway for me just reading this, is that, you know, to not be intimidated by something because it's old, which you probably have talked about multiple times already because that's what you're steeped in right now. But you know, it, it reads like something that could be performed on a play today and would resonate with people because it is so timeless. It's. The humor is, you know. Yeah, you can kind of laugh at some of the, kind of the low brow humor, but just that the fact that it is low brow humor, you know, in 4th century BC tells you something about human nature and how we're hardwired for these kinds of things. And even for comedy, you know, that comedy does teach us something. And perhaps comedians being the cultural truth tellers rings true because it seems to have been true all those years ago.
- [66:55]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
No, I agree. Yeah. There's a human nature, right, that we share. We're not, not. We're not atomized. Modern man tends to view himself as like a different creature. I can't read Homer. I can't read Aeschylus. I can't read Aristophanes. Like, I have nothing in common with them. Honestly. I think the best answer to that is just read them. Just read them like, you know, were you a boy in junior high? Like, you're gonna laugh at this, right? Because Aristophanes apparently also has that humor. You know, it's just like, you know, when you read Homer, he's like, oh, I know someone's stubborn like that. I know someone like this. Like. Yeah. I think the best antidote to that is simply just to read these texts and read them, you know, with a group, read them with people, have that fraternity and explore their perennial themes.
- [67:34]
Tish Oxenrider
I was just going to end with saying, I think sometimes in our modern world we think that Plato is hard because we read people's thoughts on Plato instead of just reading Plato directly. So don't read commentary on the Greek plays, just read the Greek plays, that kind of thing. I think that's a takeaway.
- [67:51]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Yeah, no, very much true. Yeah. And actually the best commentary that you can find. Not to throw my own work under the bus because we have all these guides and articles on our website, but honestly, the best commentary you can find on text is just to reread it.
- [68:04]
Tish Oxenrider
Yeah.
- [68:04]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Because the first time you read things, you're trying to find the literal. And so the more you will just go back and read it. Like reading that. Like this year, you know, we got done with the, you know, previously, we got another year of Homer going back and reading the Iliad and the Odyssey again for probably. I can't remember the third time on both, maybe, like all these things I noticed because I wasn't worried about tracking the literal because I knew the story. And so honestly, like, if you think like, well, how's that guy getting that out of it? Or how did they see that? Well, you might ask them how many times they've read the text and usually it's two or three times and that stuff comes forward.
- [68:36]
Tish Oxenrider
That's what I start most of my classes with when I tell the kids, why am I having you read something, quote, challenging? It's not because I expect you, a 17 year old, to fully understand it now. It's because I want you to not be intimidated to pick it up again at 27 and at 37, like, this is. This should not be the first, the only time you read, you know, whatever great book this is. So, yeah, keep reading them for sure.
- [68:58]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
That is excellent. That is excellent advice. So, Tish, I deeply appreciate you being here this evening and helping us kind of unpack the mysteries that is Aristophanes frogs. Where can people find you and your work?
- [69:11]
Tish Oxenrider
Tishoxenrider.com is my website and that's where I've got everything linked because it's too complicated to name all the places. So just go there for my substack newsletter and anywhere else that I'm online and my books.
- [69:22]
Deacon Harrison Garlick
Good. And follow her on Twitter when she's not fasting from Twitter or X or whatever we're supposed to call it now. But yeah, yeah, Latish, I agree. I greatly appreciate it. It was a good conversation this evening. Thank you.