Ascend – The Great Books Podcast

Episode: Tyranny v Philosophy: Part Two of Plato's Gorgias with Dr. Matthew Bianco
Date: November 18, 2025
Host(s): Deacon Harrison Garlick, Adam Minihan
Guest: Dr. Matthew Bianco (Searcy Institute)

Overview of Episode Theme

This episode explores the second part of Plato’s Gorgias—the dialogue between Socrates and Polus. The panel investigates the war between tyranny and philosophy over the souls of Athenian youth, central questions about the true nature of rhetoric, justice, the soul, virtue, and human happiness. Special attention is paid to Socrates’ provocative claims: the tyrant is to be pitied, suffering injustice is better than committing it, and rhetoric as practiced by Sophists is likened to “pastry-baking” rather than an art. The conversation delves into educational philosophy, Orthodox–Catholic perspectives on Plato, and the continued relevance of these ancient debates.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Plato and the Educational Soul

• Dr. Bianco shares his background with Searcy Institute and his dissertation work, arguing the Republic is best read as a text about the soul, not politics.
• Both hosts and guest agree that Plato’s dialogues (esp. First Alcibiades and Meno) model a pedagogy attuned to the readiness and desires of the learner.
  • Dr. Bianco [10:16]: “The respect that [Socrates] has to not impose his views on the other person. Like, if they're not ready to receive it, then he doesn't just give it to them anyways ... It's pearls before swine.”
  • Socratic teaching style: tailored for love of wisdom, patience, and personally attentive.

2. The Tripartite Soul and Rhetoric

• Polus, the student of Gorgias, is thought to represent the spirited part of the soul (thumos), while Gorgias embodies a corrupted intellect, and Callicles the appetitive.
• Socrates employs rhetoric deliberately, “pricking” Polus’s spiritedness by comparing his beloved rhetoric to pastry-baking—an ignoble craft:
  • Harrison [43:54]: “To tell Polus, who ... is spirited ... that the thing you do is very ignoble ... by using this kind of funny, domesticated and soft example.”
• The ordering of soul parts is key: Socrates aims to show how unbridled rhetoric, aimed at gratification and devoid of philosophical purpose, leads to tyranny.

3. What is True Rhetoric?

• Socrates repeatedly argues rhetoric as practiced by sophists isn’t a genuine art but a knack/gratification—because it lacks grounding in truth or knowledge of causes (Gorgias 465A).
• However, there is a philosophical rhetoric, “baptized” by philosophy, which aims at truth and the health of the soul.
  • Bianco [62:19]: “You have to have philosophical knowledge before you can know what to say rhetorically ... Aristotle kind of saves rhetoric for us.”

4. Socrates’ Surprising Claims:

• Pity the Tyrant! Tyrants (and rhetoricians aimed at power/pleasure) are profoundly unhappy—contrary to all appearances—because their souls are disordered, and they are far from genuine good.
  • Dr. Bianco [39:50]: “Christianity ... chose to suffer injustice. In fact, when Christianity does ascend ... it’s through the conversion of an emperor—not tyrannically overthrowing. ... He's describing what Christianity ends up being, 500 years beforehand.”
• Worse to Commit Injustice than Suffer It:
  • Socrates claims wrongdoing corrupts the soul—this is our greatest harm and unhappiness.
  • Discussed in detail from [115:00] onward, with Polus incredulous but eventually (grudgingly) accepting some premises.

5. Virtue, Justice, and Happiness

• Highest human happiness is to never do wrong; second best is to be corrected/punished if you have. This is analogized to medicine.
  • Harrison [125:46]: “The happiest man is the one who does not have the corruption at all ... The second happiest man is the one who rids himself of the corruption.”
• Justice “adorns the soul with beauty.” For Plato, justice is internal order; for Aristotle/Aquinas, it relates to exterior acts (and “the will”).
  • Both hosts and guest reflect on how the absence of a will-concept shapes Plato’s moral psychology.
  • Dr. Bianco [100:56]: “It frustrates me that [justice] is only external... Socrates’ view—there's a way for me to be just internally within. But then that manifests...in my interactions with other people.”

6. Purpose of Rhetoric Revisited

• Socrates: Rhetoric’s true (or best) purpose is not to avoid punishment, but to bring oneself and others to justice and soul-healing.
  • Bianco [135:58]: “The purpose of rhetoric is to bring about the justice that would bring about the healing that's needed for the sick or the corrupted soul.”

7. Christianity, Confession, and Platonic Influence

• Deep parallels are drawn between Plato’s notion of “seeking the judge for your soul’s correction” and the sacrament of confession.
  • Bianco [137:27]: “That’s the sacrament of confession, isn’t it? I’m going to turn myself in so that I can be ... given the medicine, the remedy that I need to restore order to the soul.”
• Socratic/Platonic justice seen as providential preparation for Christian thought.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Socratic Pedagogy:

  • Harrison [17:33]: “He’s a master of understanding the soul and its knowledge and its desires. He seems to tailor his pedagogy ... to that.”

• On the Art of Rhetoric:

  • Socrates (via Harrison) [59:48]: “It’s not a craft. It’s a knack. It’s not a true art ... its teleology is gratification and pleasure.”

• On Polus’s Spiritedness and Rhetoric as Pastry-Baking:

  • Harrison [62:19]: “Socrates is pricking Polus, telling him ... you know what you’re like? You’re like a pastry chef!”

• On Socratic Irony and Crowds:

  • Bianco [62:19]: “Speeches get honored, right? ... that’s what the spirited colt wants.”

• On Justice and the Soul:

  • Socrates (paraphrased by host) [125:46]: “The happiest man is the one who does not have the corruption ... The second happiest is the one who rids himself of the corruption.”

• On Plato Without a ‘Will’:

  • Bianco [96:12]: “I probably was doing the same thing then, reading a Christian conception of the will as a faculty ... but the only thing I see in Plato is that ... sometimes the person has to choose between what his intellect wants and what his thumos wants ... but there’s no [faculty] making the choice.”

• On Happy Tyrants and ‘Enemies’:

  • Harrison [135:01]: “If you are an enemy of a man, you would want him to become a tyrant ... because having a tyrannical soul is a punishment in itself.”

• Christian Parallels:

  • Bianco [135:58]: “That’s the sacrament of confession, isn’t it?”

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–09:02 | Introduction, Plato and education, Bianco’s dissertation | | 14:46–19:47 | Socratic pedagogy, teaching by love, tailoring speech | | 21:49–29:34 | Orthodox & Catholic views on Plato, Platonism in Christianity | | 32:31–39:50 | Why read the Gorgias? Rhetoric, justice, happiness, Neoplatonic reading | | 43:30–48:00 | Tripartite soul mapping: Gorgias (intellect), Polus (spirit), Callicles (appetite) | | 54:36–59:15 | What does Gorgias know? Socratic intentions and pedagogy | | 59:23–62:19 | Socratic definition of rhetoric—art or knack? Teleology of rhetoric | | 68:04–71:25 | Pastry-baking analogy, flattery vs. true arts, goods of soul and body | | 83:38–88:32 | Power, will, intermediate goods, final end, St. Thomas’ influence | | 94:53–98:15 | Virtue, internal justice vs. exterior justice, Platonic and Thomistic anthropology | | 115:00–119:36 | Suffering injustice vs. committing injustice, dramatic argument between Socrates & Polus | | 125:46–129:03 | Happiness, justice, and the two types of happy people | | 135:01–138:08 | Punishment, justice, and confession as medicine for the soul |

Final Takeaways & Preview

• Socratic rhetoric is fundamentally different from sophist rhetoric—its purpose is soul-healing, not gratification.
• The truly happy and admirable man is just—even if that means suffering injustice and punishment.
• The dialogue’s insights prepare listeners for the climactic confrontation with Callicles (next episode), where the stakes of happiness, power, and truth will be laid bare.
• Strong analogies are drawn to Christian practice, especially confession, showing Plato’s ongoing relevance.

Resources & Further Reading

• For study guides and resources on Great Books, see thegreatbookspodcast.com
• Learn about Dr. Bianco and classical education at searcyinstitute.org

Next week: Callicles and the big philosophical showdown—don’t miss it!