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Today on Ascend, the Great Books Podcast, we discuss why you should read the Greek plays. We say goodbye to our year with Homer and discuss several of the key reasons the Greek plays are worth your time and attention. We'll then give a quick preview of each text we are going to read and why it is worth reading. Over the next six months, we'll be joined by some great minds like Dr. Zena Hitz and Dr. Frank Grabowski and explore themes related to justice, love, suffering, fate, virtue and divinity. So join us today for a conversation on why the Greek plays are worth reading. Welcome to Ascend, the Great Books Podcast. My name is Deacon Harrison Garlick. I'm a husband, father, and serve as Chancellor and general counsel for the Roman Catholic Diocese of Tulsa. We are recording on a crisp December evening here in rural Oklahoma. If you are new to Ascend, we are a weekly podcast that helps you read the great books. Check us out on x or Twitter, YouTube, Facebook and Patreon. We appreciate all of our supporters. You can visit thegreatbookspodcast.com where we have guides written guides, over 100 questions each for the Iliad and for the Odyssey. To help you or your small group. Today on the podcast, we are asking why you should read the Greek plays. Why should you even read them? We'll give a preview of the next six months on the podcast by quickly introducing each Greek text and why you should read it. So the first question is why? Why do we read the Greek plays? The first reason that we should read the Greek plays is that they're part of the great books. And like all the great books, they are commenting on the human condition. They're asking perennial questions about what it means to be human and exploring the perennial truths that guide us into answering those questions. They're commenting on subjects such as justice, virtue, love, fate, divinity, and many other topics. And honestly, these are some of the best texts that were ever written. And so, like all the great books, they're inviting us to a better understanding of the human condition. The second reason that we should read the Greek plays is because they form an intellectual bridge between Homer and Plato. The playwrights are picking up themes from Homer and exploring them with great depth and more precise grammar. They set the stage, if you will, for someone like Plato for the birth of philosophy. We should remember that Plato, too, was a playwright. He was a dramatist, and upon meeting Socrates, he burned all of his plays. So the plays that we have from, like Aeschylus and Sophocles, the different playwrights, they serve as an important intermediary between Homer and Plato. If you want to read Plato and you want to read him, well, I think you need to read the Greek plays. But they also stand. I want to make clear that not only are they an intellectual bridge between Homer and Plato and we can read them for a better understanding of Plato, they also stand on their own. They're wonderful works. They're tremendous works that again are commenting on the human condition and inviting us to explore the answers to these perennial questions with a greater depth and more precise grammar than we perhaps saw in Homer. And so as an aside, I simply want to state that I was a first time reader of a lot of these plays. And so if you understand how Ascend works, we actually record a lot of our episodes 8 to 12 months in advance. And this is because we're kind of working through the core curriculum. And so I'm actually recording this episode after having already done six months of episodes on the Greek plays. And for most of those, if not all of them, I was a first time reader. And I just got to tell you, it's worth it. It's worth reading them. It is worth your time. These authors are commenting on the human condition. They're inviting us to a greater understanding of what it means to be human on subjects like as justice and beauty. And I greatly loved it. I was pleasantly surprised. And like I've already alluded to, it really did help me understand Plato in a lot of better ways. It helped me understand how someone like Plato finally steps on the scene and where philosophy comes from. And so what I want to do very quickly is just kind of map out the next six months. What are the works that we're going to read and why are we reading them? All right, so the first work that we're going to read is actually not a play. We're going to read Hesiod's Theogony. Hesiod is actually, actually a contemporary of Homer. He's a little younger. He's writing from about 750 to 650 BC. The Theogony is about the beginning of the cosmos and the gods. I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would. Just a few reasons why I greatly enjoyed it. One of the things that Hesiod really talks about is Eros or erotic love. He talks about Eros as one of the four primordial gods. And I think this is a wonderful insight into the cosmos, about how love actually moves all things. It's the generative force in reality. And we see this later on, for instance, in Aristotle's Metaphysics. He will actually praise Hesiod for his insight into erotic love being a cosmic force. And those who are familiar might be also thinking of Dante. Dante ends his famous Divine Comedy by talking that it's love, it's love that moves the sun and stars. So that was one thing that really surprised me when I read a theogony was his commentary on Eros or erotic love. The other reason to read the theogony is simply his commentary on Zeus. It's very different than Homer and so it sets up an interesting contrast. And it wasn't until I read the theogony that I saw certain reflections or echoes of Hesiod's view of Zeus inside of Homer. And it kind of gave me a greater appreciation for some of the drama in the Iliad and the Odyssey when you actually read it back through Hesiod, through these kind of different aspects of Zeus. And so that's the second reason I really enjoyed the theogony. The third simply that the theogony, right, the, the birth of the gods, the genesis of the gods also gives us the birth of the cosmos. It tells us how things are structured. I think it's really fascinating to see how Hesiod says, well, this God came from this God and this God created this God and this is how these things came about. And you can kind of really ask yourself like, you know, is he seeing somewhat of a pre scientific cosmos? Is he really trying to give a certain order and structure, you know, why this God comes from another God is rational, it's not random. And trying to kind of decipher Hesiod's insights there, I think is really fascinating. So for our conversation on the Theogony we will be joined by Dr. Frank Grabowski and Mr. Thomas Lackey. Friends of the podcast helped us through a lot of the books of Homer and so we greatly appreciate them. And finally we will be reading hold it up here for those on YouTube and video. We'll be reading the translation by Hugh Evelyn White, which is originally, I think the loeb translation, early 1900s. It is also available for free online. Also, by the way, the theogony is only about a thousand lines. So join us. We'll be reading that next week. The next episode that we'll have as we explore kind of Greek poetics is we'll actually get into the playwrights themselves. And the first playwright that we'll learn about is Aeschylus, the father of the tragedians. We'll have a whole episode just introducing him and who he is and why he is important to read. He's born around 525B. We'll see two major themes in his writing. Suffering, injustice. Suffering, injustice. We'll have Adam Minahan of our Year with Homer, you all know him, also of the Catholic man show will join us for that episode. And then we'll get into the Greek plays proper. We'll get into Aeschylus's greatest work, the Oresteia. And so the Oresteia tells the story of Orestes, Agamemnon's son, in his story of revenge. So we'll have six episodes on the Oresteia, or a month and a half to cover these three Greek plays. The first play is Agamemnon. We'll have two episodes on Agamemnon. This tells a story that's between the Iliad and the Odyssey, of the fatal homecoming of Agamemnon and how he was murdered by his wife Clytemnestra and her lover Aegistus. It's really fascinating to compare this narrative to the Odyssey because Aeschylus focuses on different aspects, he has a different emphasis and he's trying to teach us something, I think new and developing what Homer presented, but developing it in somewhat new way that teach us lessons about both justice and suffering. One of my favorite narratives in the entire Oresteia, but particularly in the Agamemnon play, is Aeschylus retelling of the Evigenia sacrifice. So if you recall, Evigenia is the daughter of Agamemnon and Agamemnon sacrificed her before the Trojan War. He sacrificed her for favorable winds so they could actually sail to Troy. Aeschyls take on the sacrifice is fascinating, fascinating. And so I would invite you to read that section very carefully and we discuss it at length on the podcast. But it's a masterfully written section on probably one of the most horrific passages in Greek literature, the human sacrifice of Iphigenia. We'll then have two episodes on the second play, the Libation Bearers, which continues that narrative and tells of Orestes finally seeking his revenge. And then we have the final play in the Oresteia, the Eumenides. We have two episodes discussing the Eumenides. I will tell you, as a first time reader, I enjoyed Agamemnon, I enjoyed the Libation Bearers, but the Eumenides, the third play, is the one that made me fall in love with Oresteia. When I could finally take a step back and see the architecture that Aeschylus was building, to have a tremendous conversation about what is justice and he moves, he masterfully moves from drama about the House of Atreus, the House of Agamemnon, to Athens as a whole. And we move from a familial setting to a political setting. We move from Blood Avengers to the polis, taking up a more procedural justice. If you find yourself maybe thinking Agamemnon and Libation Bearers is a bit slow or you already know this narrative. The third play, the Eumenides, is really Aeschylus's own invention. It doesn't have a lot of antecedents in Homer and I think it really makes the entire Oris diet, it makes it very much worth your time. All six episodes of our exploration of Oris diet will be with Dr. Frank Grabowski and also Mr. Thomas Lackey. And I deeply appreciate their participation in the podcast and I'll hold it up here for again those joining us on YouTube, we will be reading the Fagals edition of the Oresteia, which is the Penguins Classic edition. We enjoyed reading Fagals for our Year of Homer. He does a wonderful job translating the Oresteia, so we'll be picking him up again after the Oresteia. We will actually take a brief break from reading the Greek plays to read Dante's Inferno for Lent. So if you ever wanted to read Dante's Inferno, now's the time. We invite you to read it with us. Over Lent 2025, we will be reading Dante's Inferno translated by Anthony Esslin, holding up here for those on video. We'll also have some references to the translation by Musa, the Penguin Classic. And I don't have in front of me, but we'll also be using the translation, the new translation by Jason Baxter out of Benedictine College. So if you're looking for something to do for Lent, plan on reading Dante's Inferno with Ascend, the Great Books podcast. After Lent, we'll step back into Aeschylus and we'll read another play. Not a triad, not a trilogy, a single play called Prometheus Bound. We'll have one episode. This is where Zeus has ascended to the throne after the war with the Titans and where Hesiod Zeus is a hero, a source of civilization. Aeschylus comes very close here to presenting Zeus as a tyrant. It's a very fascinating take on him. It's very much through the narrative, the perception of Prometheus the Titan. He's chained to a rock, but he knows a secret, that he's going to kind of hold a ransom for his own freedom. I'm a first time reader of this of Prometheus Bound, it's actually part of a larger triad. So it would have two other plays. So it's the first one, there would have been a second, a third. Those are lost to history. We can only kind of guess to their meaning. In a lot of ways, this is a story that predates the Iliad and actually sets up for the law of the drama that we see with Achilles, mother, the sea nymph Thetis, between Zeus and Prometheus. And I really didn't know what to expect in this play, but I very much actually ended up enjoying it. I've never read a play in which a single character here, Prometheus, has reminded me of Satan, but then also of Christ that many times during a single work. It was a really kind of fascinating dichotomy as I kind of moved through that text. To guide us through Prometheus Bound. We're very happy to welcome back Dr. Jared Zimmer, formerly of Word on Fire, now Benedictine College. And we'll be using the David Green translation. The David Green translation of Prometheus Bound. The next series of plays that we'll take on are called the Theban Plays by Sophocles. Sophocles is born around 497 B.C. the Theban plays tell the story of Oedipus. They, again, we have three plays together, but they're not a true triad. What I mean by that is Aeschylus, Oresteia was written as three plays that would have been performed together as part of this kind of Greek religious festival, this kind of poetry contest. And so they were presented kind of as a whole. While Sophocles in his Theban plays has three plays, they were actually written throughout his whole life. And so there's great time differences between each play. And so one of the things that's really interesting about this is as he wrote one as a younger man and one towards the middle of his life and towards the end of his life. You can actually kind of track his maturation of thought, his own kind of intellectual maturation as he wrote these texts and so really actually asks a question, invites us to ponder what is the concept that Sophocles is wrestling with throughout his life? Why does he come back time and time again to the Oedipus narrative? And this is one of the reasons that why we read this text is what is the perennial truth? What is the perennial question that he's trying to wrestle with in these. And again we see a return to the concepts of suffering and the concepts of justice. Now with the Theban plays, there's a little bit of a controversy. It's actually a similar controversy to C.S. lewis's Chronicles of Narnia, which is that Sophocles did not actually write the plays in their dramatic chronological order. What do I mean by this? Well, the first play he wrote, called Antigone, is actually the end of the story. It's actually the end of the three plays. The second play he wrote is the first one, and the third play he wrote is the second one. And so the question then is, do we read them in the order that he wrote them, or do we read them in the order of the drama? And so the question, and I think the answer, I think the correct answer is that we read things in the order that the author wrote them. And why do we do that? Well, we do that because of what I mentioned earlier. When we read them in the order he wrote them, then it's much easier to track his own intellectual maturation. It's easier to track what he's grasping with. And you actually can see then the concepts kind of become more mature as we move through what dramatically would be play 3, 1, 2. If you read them in a dramatic chronological order, sometimes it can be very jarring because actually you would move from 1, 2, and then 3. The end, which you expect to be kind of like the crux. You expect it to have the most mature understanding of the topic that he's wrestling with is actually the most immature. And so it can be somewhat jarring. So given that we'll actually be reading Antigone first, an interesting comparison here is actually C.S. lewis's Chronicles of Narnia. Do you read those in the publication order, or do you read those in order of the drama? And the correct answer is you read them in the order that he wrote them much for the same reason you see, particularly say, take Aslan, for example. You see him working out Aslan and introducing him as a character. And that actually flows very well. If you read them in the order that he wrote them, if you reverse them and read them in a dramatical order, it kind of makes it very clunky, the introduction of Aslan and who he is. And so same thing with Sophocles. We're going to read them in the order that he wrote them. The first play that we're going to read then is Antigone, and is by far my favorite Greek play. I actually really enjoy all the Greek plays. I very much enjoyed this. Six months of studying. I think it was incredibly beneficial for my own formation and for the good of my own soul. But Antigone is by far my favorite. We'll have two episodes on Antigone. On its surface, Antigone tells the story of Antigone, Oedipus daughter, fighting with King Creon, about the ethics of bearing her brother. However, it is so much more than that kind of surface level presentation. On a deeper level, it's a story about how we move and live within an ordered cosmos and how we kind of draw our ethics from that ordered whole. What does it mean to actually live inside this kind of intelligible structure, this structure that we can discern with our reason that's ordered? And so Antigone kind of invites us to really ask, how is the family, the polis and the cosmos all aligned? How does justice come in and move these things as a whole? And what happens if one part becomes incongruent? What happens if one part starts to have friction upon the other? And it has these beautiful cosmic questions on both, say, suffering and justice, presented in an amazing character of Antigone, probably one of the best female characters in all of Greek literature, next to, say, Cassandra. And so we'll see Antigone become the dark sign of the gods, the sign that the gods give to Creon to help him restructure his misunderstanding, to restructure the disorder for Antigone. We'll be joined by David Niles and Dr. Frank Grabowski, and we'll be using Fagals for all the Theban plays. And so I'll hold it up here for those joining by video. So we'll again be reading the FAGL's edition, which is the Penguin Classic edition. And he does a wonderful job translating the Theban plays. He also has probably one of the most famous interpretive essays on Oedipus and Antigone in here as well, which is very much worth your time. We'll move on from Antigone to Oedipus Rex or Oedipus the King. We'll have one episode on this play. So we go back to what would be, in the dramatical order, play number one, Sophocles, is exploring the concept of being both a curse and a blessing. If you don't know the story on this one, I'm not going to tell you. I will not ruin it for you. God bless you. If you don't know it, don't look it up. Just read the play and enjoy yourself. You'll have a great time. Aristotle actually said this play was, like the best tragedy par excellence. This was the best one According to Aristotle. We'll have our friend Eli Stone return to the podcast. You might remember Eli from some of our episodes on the Odyssey. And also our friend Josiah joins us for a very good conversation on Oedipus the King. And then we'll move into the last of the Theban plays, Oedipus at Colonis. I already loved Antigone. I thought it was a wonderful, wonderful play. Oedipus the King, I struggled with a little bit because I already knew the story, and I'm not sure I appreciated some of the technical storytelling that was going on. But then Oedipus at Colonis is when Sophocles, again, because it's the third play he wrote, really hits his stride in understanding suffering and justice being both a blessing and a curse. And I loved it. I mean, it is a job level esque story. And I think it invites wonderful conversation. It invites a lot of deeper insights and thought and what it means to suffer and what it means to suffer for the benefit of others. And our friend Eli Stone will join us again to help guide us through Oedipus at Colonus. Then we move into probably one of the most disturbing demonic texts in all of Greek literature, the Bacchae by Euripides. We'll actually have two episodes on this play, one of the most disturbing, but also one of the most fascinating Greek plays you can possibly read. It tells the story of Dionysus who comes home. And for some people, you might say, well, what does that mean? He's the wine God. Homer presents him as, you know, somewhat jovial, even timid, hiding from mortals, you know, under the skirt of Thetis, that Dionysus is long gone. This is written by Euripides. And Euripides, you know, a new author for us, he presents Dionysus in a new way, a very cruel and pitiless way. And in the Bacchae, Euripides turns back to a lot of the themes explored by both Aeschylus and Sophocles in trying to interpret what he's doing in the Bacchae. I mean, lots of ink has been spilt on what is the purpose of this play. And we'll have to kind of explore that. And so, but there's a reason to read it. Like, why do we read this if it has disturbing imagery? Why do we read this if it kind of turns all these principles on their head? One of the reasons to read this is that I actually think it provides a wonderful context, a wonderful antecedent to Plato's Symposium, understanding the Bacchae understanding Dionysus as a certain type of erotic love, this kind of bestial release, this kind of animalistic satiation on sex and violence is something that we kind of need to understand. To understand then what Plato is trying to do for Eros and erotic love in his dialogue. The Symposium and Dionysus will play a very prominent role in that dialogue. So if we remember that the great books are part of a great conversation, these authors are coming together and talking with one another, and this is a conversation we can join, then we very much want to join Euripides here for his conversation on Dionysus, because it will bear a lot of fruit when we read Plato's Symposium. And so for the Bacchae, we'll be joined again by our friend Dr. Frank Grabowski. We always deeply appreciate all of his insights. And we will be reading the William Arrowsmith translation of the Bacchae. So then we'll have a break, actually, from the Greek plays, and we'll take a step back and just do a roundtable. So we'll invite a lot of the people who've been reading the Greek plays with us. We'll invite them to just a little roundtable conversation to take a pause and say, okay, here are some of the concepts that we see. Let's kind of discuss them not in any one play, but let's look at the plays as a whole that we've read and kind of pull out some of these major themes. And so Dr. Grabowski will join us, David Niles will join us, and Thomas Lackey will join us as well. And we're going to take up the themes of divinity, Eros, fate, free will, justice, cosmos, virtue and suffering in all the plays that we've already read for those months and kind of talk about them as a whole and see if we can't pull out some common threads. It's really a wonderful conversation and I think a really good way to cap off the Greek plays, particularly the tragedies, because after the tragedies, we move into something very different. We move into comedy. The first comedy that we will read is the Clouds by Aristophanes. And this tells the story of Socrates and his new school of thought, the thinkery. Now, that should alert us to why should I read this play? Well, because Socrates is in it. He's a character in the play. And so, you know, we're in the late 400s now, right? Like 407, 405 BC and Socrates is alive, Plato is alive, and Socrates is well known and is being made into a caricature in these plays up on stage. Everyone in Athens is watching these. And so one of the immediate reasons that we need to read the Clouds is because it sets up kind of a wonderful antecedent. It kind of tills the soil, if you will, for us having a good understanding of Plato, for Plato presenting his Socrates through his dialogues. And it allows us to have a contrast between the Socrates and Aristophanes, the clouds and the Socrates inside Plato's dialogues. I'm incredibly glad that I read this play. I didn't know if I really knew what to expect. The comedies are a very different palette than the tragedies. And while they also teach great ideas, they're part of the great books. There's like, you know, perennial conversations going on, et cetera. A lot of times those great ideas are mired in very vulgar humor, even bathroom humor. And so it's a very different palette than the tragedies overall. But I came to really appreciate, I think, what Aristophanes was doing in the clouds. And I've noticed that as I teach the dialogues, I find myself referring back to Aristophanes the clouds quite often for context. And so it's been very illuminative and a much more rewarding read than I think I first anticipated. To help guide us through this play, we'll have Dr. Zena Hitz join the podcast. If you don't know her, she is fantastic. Please go check her out on x. And so Dr. Zena hits will guide us through the clouds. We have a really good conversation. I think that sets us up really well to read Plato. And for the translation, we'll be reading again, the William Arrowsmith translation of the clouds. I will say, from reading the clouds in my Sunday small group, where everyone brought a different translation because of the puns in the comedy, you really need to have the same translation, and you need to have a good translation, because some translators completely miss the puns. Also, some older translations will soften a lot of the vulgar humor. And so you might not even understand a scene because you don't understand the context behind it. And so when we read different translations in my small group, sometimes we spent a lot of time just trying to figure out and agree literally what was happening because there was such a disparity between the translations. So if you're going to read it with a group, you're going to read it with us. I would suggest a William Arrowsmith translation. The next play that we'll read is the Frogs by Aristophanes. It was Performed in Athens in 405 BC. It's funny. It's a funny play. Again, first time reader. The play tells the story, the comedic story of Dionysus the God deciding that all the new tragic poets are terrible. And so he has to go back down into Hades and rescue Euripides to help save Athens from her moral decay. Euripides had only died the year before in 406 BC and Sophocles had recently died in 406 BC as well. And they are still at the tail end of the Peloponnesian War in 404 BC. And so there's a lot going on when Aristophanes is riding the frogs. Why should you read it? I think one of the things that's really fascinating is outside of just being a really funny tale of this God going down into Hades to rescue this poet is it really highlights that the poets are teachers. The poets are teachers of the polis. Dionysus is going down to rescue Euripides because Athens has fallen into moral decay. It's losing the Peloponnesian War. And so we need the good poets, we need the good tragedians to come back. And actually the whole play ends up being kind of a battle, if you will, between Aeschylus and Euripides of who is the best teacher of morality, who's the best to actually be resurrected and brought back to Athens to save her. And while very comedic, it does highly stress that the poets are teachers, they teach the polis things. And I think that's an incredibly important lesson as we move into Plato, because as we move into Plato, you're going to have a lot of contrast between philosophy and poetry. Which one is the better teacher on the human condition? And the Frogs is really kind of an excellent but funny introduction to that conversation. And so our guest to help guide us through Aristophanes of Frogs will be Tish Auctionrider. If you're not familiar with her, go check her out on X. It's kind of a wonderful, amicable, friendly conversation on the Frogs. I'm a first time reader. I found it very comedic, but I greatly enjoyed it as well. I read a Common Domain translation which probably wasn't the best. We might post some better options before we get to the frogs. And so that will conclude the Greek plays. And so after the Greek plays we'll move into Plato and reading his dialogues. And that will kind of carry us on through the end of 2025. And so again, as we look at the Greek plays, why do I want to read These why would I do it? One, the Greek plays are commenting on the human condition. They're wonderful, wonderful stories. They're human stories. They're inviting us to contemplate things like love and justice and fate and human excellence and just having kind of a unconquerable will, an unconquerable soul, if you will, in the face of certain tragedies. Just beautiful, beautiful stories that I think are very much worth your time. And secondly, they're an intellectual bridge. They're an intellectual bridge between Homer and Plato. And so they really help us to prepare to read Plato and read Plato. Well, you know, just. Just two housekeeping items before we kind of bring this to a close. First, I want to say thank you to Mr. Adam Minahan, you know Adam, who joined us as the co host of Ascend, the Great Books Podcast throughout our year with Homer. And so Adam has had a lot of life changes. He's got a new job, he's moved. All good things for him. And so he has kind of bowed out of Ascend. And so I simply want to tell him thank you for all the hard work he put into the podcast to get us off the ground and to lead us through our year with Homer. And second, I want to say thank you to all of you. I want to say thank you to the listener. I want to say thank you to all those who follow us on X and engage with all our posts on there. If you're not on X, please join. We're very active on there, having conversations about the great books every day. And a special thank you to all of our Patreon supporters who have access to all of our written guides on our great books. It's very humbling, actually to be supported on there. And so I just want to say thank you. I've been able to acquire a lot of new equipment, so, you know, I've had to grow, mature in my own skill sets and abilities. We move from hosting this inside a professional studio to me now hosting it in my house. And so you'll see on the episodes, particularly Those joining on YouTube that we filmed, you know, eight to 10 months ago, there's definitely a growth in my own skill set and a growth, growth in our professional equipment to do these things. And it's really all because of your support, not just financially, but all of you who comment on X and etc and kind of talked about how much this has meant to you. All the outpouring of all you guys who read the Iliad and the Odyssey with us, again, incredibly humbling. And I just want to tell you thank you because I've greatly appreciated kind of growing with you in these texts and learning alongside you. I think it's a beautiful journey and we have a lot ahead for us, particularly not only in the Greek plays, but also then reading Dante's Inferno over Lent and then getting into Plato, which are a lot of the episodes that I'm recording right now. And it's amazing. I cannot wait to share those with you. And so let's stop and wait and kind of percolate in the Greek plays in early 2025. And there's just a lot of good things ahead and so I deeply appreciate it and want to make sure that I express my gratitude. So follow us on X, YouTube and Facebook when I remember to update it. And you can join us on Patreon and be a subscriber and get access to a bunch of written guides. And you can also visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for various updates and we will see you next week as we read Hesiod's the Theogony together. Thank you. Sa.