Ep 292 – Community Over Competition with Tina Buckley

Summary

ASCP Esty Talk Episode 292: Community Over Competition with Tina Buckley

Release Date: November 20, 2024
Host: Associated Skin Care Professionals (ASCP)
Guest: Tina Buckley – Esthetician, Educator, Product Development Specialist

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Introduction to Community Over Competition

In Episode 292 of ASCP Esty Talk, hosts Maggie Stasik and Ella Cressman delve into a pivotal topic within the skincare industry: Community Over Competition. Featuring guest Tina Buckley, a seasoned esthetician and educator, the conversation emphasizes the profound benefits of collaboration and support among skincare professionals over traditional rivalry.

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Redefining Success Through Community

Tina Buckley articulates a nuanced understanding of success, distinguishing it from superficial metrics often highlighted on social media. She emphasizes that true success lies in meaningful client relationships and the collective upliftment of fellow estheticians.

Tina Buckley (03:23): "If they feel happy with their services and we've made a connection and they feel safe and I can honor their space wherever they're at. That feels like success to me."

Buckley shares her philosophy of nurturing client relationships and supporting peers, asserting that individual achievements contribute to the broader community's strength.

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Building a Supportive Professional Network

The discussion transitions to practical strategies for fostering a supportive network among estheticians. Buckley highlights the importance of maintaining relationships with colleagues, even those in neighboring clinics, to create a robust referral system.

Tina Buckley (06:46): "The majority of my clients have come from referrals from other estheticians. So estheticians that have moved their spaces."

By sharing knowledge and referring clients, estheticians can enhance their collective success, ensuring that the community thrives as a whole.

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Overcoming Fear and Embracing Collaboration

Ella Cressman introduces the concept of fear within the industry, addressing common anxieties such as feeling inadequate or worried about keeping up with new trends. Buckley encourages professionals to define their ideal clients and confidently refer services outside their expertise.

Ella Cressman (08:08): "I've got to master. [...] Who do I really want? Who is my ideal client?"

Buckley responds by sharing her own practice of referring specialized services to trusted colleagues, reinforcing the idea that collaboration strengthens individual businesses.

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Honing Your Niche and Authenticity

Maggie Stasik and Buckley discuss the significance of identifying and honing a niche within the skincare field. Buckley advises estheticians to focus on services they are passionate about and excel in, rather than trying to offer a broad range of treatments.

Tina Buckley (12:52): "Do what you love to do. [...] People just forged their own way and it was amazing."

This focused approach not only enhances the quality of services but also attracts a loyal client base aligned with the esthetician's strengths and interests.

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Strategic Client Base Building

The conversation shifts to effective methods for building and expanding a clientele. Buckley advocates for setting achievable goals, such as acquiring two new clients per week for specific services, to systematically grow one's business.

Ella Cressman (17:04): "Plan it out for six months, 12 months. I'm going to do a, let's just call it a fresh facial... So plan it out."

This targeted strategy allows estheticians to steadily increase their client base while maintaining quality and consistency in their services.

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Pricing Strategies and Valuing Your Work

A significant portion of the discussion centers on pricing services appropriately. Buckley underscores the importance of valuing one's expertise and discourages undercutting prices, which can devalue the industry as a whole.

Tina Buckley (25:00): "Charge more. Rise to the occasion and look at the competition, but also know your own value."

By setting fair prices that reflect their skills and the quality of their services, estheticians can sustain their businesses and contribute positively to the industry's standards.

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Fostering a Collaborative Esthetician Community

Buckley emphasizes the necessity of building a trustworthy network of fellow estheticians for mutual support, especially in unforeseen circumstances like illness.

Tina Buckley (20:22): "If someone was sick or if I was sick and I couldn't take clients for a couple of months... I want to have an esthetician that I can trust to send my clients to."

This trust-based community ensures that clients receive continuous care and that professionals can rely on one another during challenging times.

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Embracing Positivity on Social Media

Ella Cressman proposes a constructive approach to handling feelings of competition or imitation on social media. She encourages turning perceived negatives into positives by viewing overlaps as compliments and opportunities for growth.

Ella Cressman (21:56): "Say, I'm flattered. [...] You had such a great idea that someone borrowed it. I'm flattered."

This mindset fosters a positive online environment and strengthens professional relationships.

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Conclusion: The Power of Community

In wrapping up the episode, Maggie Stasik reiterates the value of building a community-centric practice over a competitive one. The hosts invite listeners to share their experiences and thoughts on fostering community within the skincare industry.

Maggie Stasik (27:18): "This has been a very thoughtful and thorough conversation on community over competition and I absolutely loved it."

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Final Thoughts and Listener Engagement

Listeners are encouraged to engage with ASCP Esty Talk by sharing their own strategies and experiences related to building a supportive professional community. The episode serves as a motivational guide for estheticians at all stages to prioritize collaboration and mutual growth.

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Connect with ASCP Esty Talk:
For more insights and to connect with Tina Buckley, Ella Cressman, or Maggie Stasik, visit the show notes or reach out via social media and email at getconnectedcpskincare.com.

Transcript

[Danae Montague King]

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[Maggie Stasik]

Hello and welcome to ASCP's Estee Talk. I'm your co host Maggie Stasik and ASCP's program director.

[Ella Cressman]

And I'm Ella Cressman, Licensed esthetician, Certified organic Skincare Formulator, Ingredient junkie, and content contributor for Associated Skincare Professionals.

[Maggie Stasik]

Ella, I think you will agree with me that today's topic is so important. We're talking about the concept of community over competition. The idea that collaboration and support are more valuable than rivalry in the skincare industry.

[Ella Cressman]

You know, this is my lifeblood here. This is absolutely how I roll. I do believe that when you raise the water, everybody else's boats rise instead of trying to sabotage other people.

[Maggie Stasik]

I love that analogy.

[Ella Cressman]

Ye. And there's a lot of pirates out there too.

[Maggie Stasik]

We have an amazing guest joining us today to emphasize the importance of this mindset for professionals and students alike at all stages of their careers. I'd like to welcome Tina Buckley to SD Talk. Hi Tina.

[Tina Buckley]

Hello.

[Maggie Stasik]

Tina is an esthetician, educator, product development specialist. You may all recognize her as the lead instructor for SkinScript Skincare in Arizona. She is the owner of Retouche Skincare. She has extensive expertise in skincare products, ingredients and their effects and she is dedicated to empowering others and creating meaningful connections in the skincare industry. We are so thrilled to have you on the podcast.

[Tina Buckley]

I am so happy to be here. This is just such an honor and dream bucket list. Check. Yay. This is great.

[Maggie Stasik]

So let's Dive into empowerment and shifting our mindset from competition to community. I think we can all agree that success is different for everyone.

[Tina Buckley]

Yes, Success and how we measure success. I say especially now with like social media, there's a big difference and with how we measure success on the outside. But for me, it's mostly what happens with me and my one on ones with clients. If they feel happy with their services and we've made a connection and they feel safe and I can honor their space wherever they're at. That feels like success to me, but also uplifting other estheticians in a space. So a lot of the times in classes, the classes that I teach, they're brand new estheticians or maybe got their license and never used it and they don't and they have imposter syndrome. Like, they're like, oh, I'm like, no, you're perfect. This is great. Everyone experiences that. But we have to continue to support each other because what I do in the treatment room represents all estheticians like I'm just a small piece of the puzzle. So when they're doing services, they're also representing me as well. So I'm always going to want to encourage you. I'm always. I'm never going to gatekeep information because I learned the stuff I know from somewhere. I didn't come up with it. Nothing was new, so. But some tips and tricks make me feel good about my business, make me feel successful. And if I can pass that on to someone and it resonates, wonderful.

[Maggie Stasik]

I love that the I had a mentor as a new esthetician. Something that she would say over and over is that there is enough to go around. Oh, yeah, enough to go around. So true. She would say, I am not the best esthetician, but I love my clients. They love me back.

[Tina Buckley]

Yes, yes, I think. And oh, it's so good because in the classroom, which is where I usually am, and we're all in Arizona practicing, we all have our practices, especially with those that have been practicing for a while. I sit there and I go, your clients choose you. We all do facials. We all can do. Well, we can do a lot of stuff in Arizona. Um, we all do. It's the wild, wild west. We can do a lot of things. We all do the same facials. But your clients choose you to do that service you to recommend home care. It's based on like a person to person connection, not necessarily trends. There are trends that can influence, like clients who want to see you, like what you have available. But then you also have to consider your demographics as well. My older clients, they don't care what I provide. They just expect me to choose every service. And it's really, really nice. My husband's in real estate and there's a lot of realtors. He stays in business because of who he is as a person, what he brings to the table, his special attributes. He doesn't know any more or any less than other people that have been practicing, but he attracts the clientele that he wants, and that's success to him, and that's success to me. My clientele are the exact people that I want to do services on.

[Maggie Stasik]

What do you say to not just new estheticians, but estheticians that have been in the industry for a long time, shifting your mindset from competition to community? How do you grow your business with this mindset? How does this grow your business with this mindset?

[Tina Buckley]

So the majority of my clients have come from referrals from other estheticians. So estheticians that have moved their spaces. So it's really important to maintain relationships with estheticians, even if they're right next door, because they might have a question and you can help them answer it. So I am always being asked particular questions, and especially new estheticians that have their businesses two doors down. I'm always going to answer, always come in. Because your success is my success. Because like I mentioned before, when you do a service, you're representing me as well. Not necessarily exactly what I'm doing, but the community itself, the aesthetics community. So always ask questions and always be available to answer them and not feel threatened, going like, man, I should charge for this, or we should do a consultation. No, it's like, try this, try this. Let me know what you think. And it's awesome. Because if it's successful for them, then everybody wins. The client wins, that SD wins, you win.

[Ella Cressman]

I think there's a fear factor to it, too. I think that there is a fear on, do I have enough? Do I have enough modalities? Do I have enough treatment options? Am I doing this, this, this, this? Oh, there's something new. I've got to do that, too. I've got to master.

[Tina Buckley]

Yep.

[Ella Cressman]

And so for me, one of the things, as I continue, like I said, my midlife career crisis, I'm like, who do I really want? Who is my ideal client? So by defining what my ideal client was, it meant that I was able to refer out to my relationships I have with other professionals. I don't want to do this treatment, but other practitioners or professionals love doing that. You know what? I'm taking care of my clients. You would deserve a lash tint from somebody else because I'm going to throw it on there. Disgruntled. No, I'm just kidding. But I think that's a key piece. And so when we are solo estheticians, or even when we're working for other people, we want to hoard the clients. We wanna keep that because we're somehow, if we're giving it away, we're giving our advice away, we're giving away power and we're giving away opportunity, when in fact, in my opinion, it's opposite. What would you say?

[Tina Buckley]

I would 100% agree. I just do facials, so I am flanked by two other Estheticians. Actually, three. One does HydraFacial. She's amazing. She's fabulous. I have one that does all laser treatments, lash, lift and tint. I do not do any of those services. And then next door, there's two beautiful SDS that do sugaring and waxing. I don't offer those services. They want to start offering facials. They ask me for advice all the time. They know I'm the lead educator for a skincare brand. I give them tips all the time. And I think it's amazing to refer out if you don't want to do those services. I think it widens or I think it closes that gap in fear and in, oh, gosh, they're now gonna wanna start going to that esthetician for all the services. No.

[Ella Cressman]

And that's the other thing. I think we. When you're in that fear space or that fear based mentality that you're just like, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme. Instead of what's a good fit for me? Cause I'm sharing my space in my space. You're bringing your energy into my space, and I need to protect that. So we've talked about other podcasts. I had this one client. Every time she was on the books, all my. My whole staff was like, oh, God. And then afterwards, I would sage for like 20 minutes to try to get rid of her energetic residue because. Did you say sage? Oh, yeah.

[Tina Buckley]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Ella Cressman]

And had like, get it out. And then I was like, this isn't worth it. Everybody's like frowning. Everyone's like, ugh. Creeped out. Not that she was creepy. She just wasn't a good fit. But there was another esthetician that was about, I think, about two blocks down. And I'm like, you know what? We don't have room in our books for, you know, pretending to turn the page for at least, because, listen, I'm from when we had paper books, but anyways, from at least four months. So how about. Can I refer you to her? Because I think she'd be better able to serve you.

[Tina Buckley]

I think that's beautiful. What's weird probably about me is I never felt pressured to do everything that my license offered me to do. I only wanted to do what I wanted to do. In fact, when I went to aesthetic school, I just wanted to work for a brand. I didn't even want to do facials at the time. But then I fell in love with, like, that connection, and I fell in love with the people that I went to school with, and I fell in love with the instructors, and I fell in love with just the community itself. So when I wanted to go solo, because I worked at Massage Envy as well, when I wanted to go solo, I'm like, I only do. I'm only going to do what I want to do and really, really, really be good at it. The best I could possibly be. If I can be really good at facial massage, I'm gonna hit up facial massage. So I just do facials. And it's really funny because I do have people that stop by my space when I'm cleaning, and they're like, oh, do you do bbl? Do you do ipl? Do you do this? Do you do that? And I say, no, Marcella does. Courtney does. And I refer out. And they kind of look at me like, that's all you do. Do you do waxing? Nope. Gabby does. And it's great. So we all know what each other does, and it's nice to exchange services also with those that you refer to. It just strengthens the bond.

[Maggie Stasik]

I think there's great value in exactly what you said. Knowing what you love, knowing what you're good at, same what you're saying, Ella. Honing in on your niche. There are a lot of estheticians that go to esthetic school. They don't know that yet, you know, so they are doing everything they do. Have fear in. How do I build my client base? Am I good enough at all of these things to generate my client base instead of gaining their knowledge on the things they enjoy and developing their niche in the industry?

[Tina Buckley]

Yes. Do what you love to do. The pressure, I would say the pressure is real, and maybe that's what I see more in the classroom. But do more of what you love to do. I'm trying to lean into that even More so with this next coming year because there is more pressure where I'm like, oh man, I want to create more content, has nothing to do with services. But I'm like, I would like to be on social media more, but do I love doing social media? Is that something I want to dedicate time to and energy to? I'm terrible at waxing. I will probably never move forward in waxing, but I knew it immediately. I never wanted to wax. So it's really special when you can see people who find the things that like, I don't know and then they're really good at. They're like, I am. I'm good at this. Yeah, you're really good at that. Keep going. Okay, then they're just masters. I see that with students all the time. So when I was an instructor in Arizona, I was a terrible waxing instructor. I'm so sorry to all those students out there, but I see a lot of them flourish in their own businesses because they just forged their own way and it was amazing. They worked right through that fear of maybe not being able to build business, but really honed on their gifts and focused on their gifts. Their weaknesses were learning experiences. They had people that they could reach out to, like their instructors, the students that they went to school with to keep and had so much support to continue to move forward. Because I've started to say this a little bit more now, being an esthetician is not easy. It's not easy at all. Then being solo, there's a whole nother layer of stress and making sure you're showing up authentically not only for your clients, but also for yourself.

[Ella Cressman]

Hold that thought. We'll be right back.

[Danae Montague King]

Ellie Banna, Australian born, globally loved. Ellie Banna's story is simple. They love lashes and brows. They shoot for the stars and lift lashes to new heights. Their addiction is real. Their passion is popping. And there is nothing more they crave than offering excellence, service and innovation in products. Ellibana Lash Lift allows you to offer your customers luscious lifted lashes that can last up to 12 weeks in one safe, 20 minute treatment. Learn more at elliebana-usa.com okay, here we go.

[Ella Cressman]

Let's get back to the podcast.

[Maggie Stasik]

So we have said, you know, find your niche, be authentic. You're going to. There's plenty to go around. Yes, your client base will build, but it's not a matter of if you build it, they will come. There's more to it than that, right?

[Tina Buckley]

Yes.

[Maggie Stasik]

And so what advice do you have for people tuning in in Terms of building that client base.

[Tina Buckley]

Building client base. Have some patience. Patience is definitely. We want things hard and fast right now. As you're growing and learning, it's really hard to put yourself out there. But please put yourself out there in safe spaces, safe circles. Reach out to seasoned estheticians and get some opinions and advice if you want to have a sit down. I've had coffee with students that have just graduated and they just want tips on how to set up their room and talking about body ergonomics, just very certain things to make sure that they're comfortable in their space and as they're building their business. Continue your education. So fill your time with information that can help you grow. And they can be business classes, they can be the webinars that you have available here. Like, there's just so much information that you can continue educating yourself on in the downtime and in the building of your business and building clientele and sharing that information with people. Just say, hey. Like, hey, this is what I learned. Start that conversation. Start that conversation with people at Target, people on the plane, anyone who will listen.

[Ella Cressman]

I think something to consider here, what I hear saying is finding your niche is great once you've kind of narrowed it down.

[Tina Buckley]

Yes.

[Ella Cressman]

But growing your niche is another opportunity to think of. So when you're fresh out of school, or let's be honest, even if you're an esthetician, that's five, 10 years in, like I was, and you're like, I don't really know for sure. There is those ups and downs where you're impassioned and then you're on the verge of burnout, and then you're impassioned, you're on the verge of burnout. So something I heard recently kind of struck me as that's a great idea. Speaking of sharing. So I'm sharing somebody else's idea. And that would be rolling with your niche. In this example, talking about building a loyal clientele. Make it a goal to add two new clients a week. Two. And in those two new clients a week, have it be a particular service. So plan it out for six months, 12 months. I'm going to do a, let's just call it a fresh facial or a particular massage modality, type of facial or dermaplaning or whatever it is. So I'm going to grow my business, two clients a week for 12 months and see what that's going to happen. So I'm focusing on just that. Let's just say lash extensions or whatever. For me, it's lash Tinting. Ugh, Kryptonite. So that's four in your second week. You guys can do the math. Listen. But if you look at that and you're going through that, you're getting the repeat business. Your clientele is your best form of advertising, and you can grow that way. But also you're going to understand if that is where you want to go and how to expand from that. And then when you're in those valleys of wah, wah, take a class, continue to reignite your passion somehow, because we're always having a new ingredient or we're having a new way to do something a little bit better. Take a class and build that into your weekly thing or your weekly schedule, your monthly schedule. I'm going to allow X amount of time for enrichment, personal and professional enrichment.

[Tina Buckley]

Yes. And I think that is key, especially whichever state you practice in, because in Arizona, it's not necessarily required to continue education to maintain your license. So a lot of it, you have to be proactive with it. And one of the best things about just being an educator and teaching professionals that have been practicing for a long time or they've never practiced is they get to meet other professionals. They get to reignite passion, like trade shows and stuff like that. I see a lot of people go to those to reignite that passion, but I do love the two clients a week. It's almost like a challenge, but like a good, healthy challenge to keep you growing, to even work on your interpersonal skills and how you communicate with your clientele and all that good stuff, I think feedback would also from your clients would also be a wonderful way to engage and continue to grow and perhaps even build clientele.

[Ella Cressman]

So from what I heard, it's also developing not just your own skillset, but your community of other practitioners and professionals. So whether it's required by your licensure or not, having that community of other professionals and seeing them as positive people in your life for talking through situations or reigniting passion is key. And not seeing other people or other practitioners in your area as competition.

[Tina Buckley]

No, they should not be threats. You should hang out and have tea and coffee and things that you love to do and share stories and all of those things, because there could be times where, gosh, heaven forbid something were to happen and you need some help with your business, with your clients. You want to have an esthetician that you can trust to send your clients to. Like, that's something I think about a lot. I'm like, okay, if someone was sick or if I was sick and I Couldn't take clients for a couple of months. Who would I send my clients to? Who do I trust enough to do my treatment? Who do I trust enough to take care of my clients and understand that they're very important to me? So the community aspect, especially when you're solo, you're alone most of the time and all of the choices that you're making are very one on one. And if you don't have any kind of outside engagement and you don't make those connections with the practitioners in your area or even in your state, feel like you're missing a really big piece of gaining confidence and knowing your strengths and individual aspects. Like I love telling other people, Mike, you're really good at that. I love that I'm not so great at it, but you're really good. What's your can I have your card? I got a couple people's cards. Hey, I have friends. I don't live in Colorado, but I have friends that live in Colorado. I would happily refer you. And then let's stay connected. Tell me what's going on. What classes have you taken? What class should I take? Oh, you took that class. I want to go to that class too. We should go together. I love doing that with the community.

[Ella Cressman]

So I, I, I have a challenge for our listeners then, because you've, you're on social media. Maggie is not. But we've seen on social, you and I have seen on social media some of the groups and it's natural. Listen, let's just start with like, this is natural. Inevitably you'll see somebody post. There was someone. She's taking my ideas. Should I block her? Or I came up with this special and someone else is using it. And so here's the challenge. I get it. That's normal. I think it's not necessarily normal, but it's a human response. So let's take that, take a deep breath in that moment. Feel your feels. Breathe out. Let it go. And then say, I'm flattered. Let's change it from something negative or harmful to you and put it into a positive. You had such a great idea that someone borrowed it. I'm flattered. And then when that happens to you, if you post on social media, hashtag, I'm flattered. Oh my gosh, tag me. I will repeat that and then also watch on my social media because it happens to me a lot and I'm flattered.

[Tina Buckley]

My gosh, that is so good.

[Ella Cressman]

Yeah, I'm flattered. Thanks.

[Maggie Stasik]

I need to be like looped into the group because I want to see this happen.

[Ella Cressman]

Okay, I'll take screenshots.

[Maggie Stasik]

Thank you. Text me.

[Ella Cressman]

Okay, I will.

[Tina Buckley]

For sure. It's because we're all learning from somewhere and from someone. And our techniques can be a combination of multiple things. And, you know, there's so many examples of where I see trends and then one person does it, then I see multiple people doing it, and then I'm doing it. I just never post it, but I'm totally doing that. That is amazing. But I have looked at other estheticians, not in my state, but just for price points. I feel like, how much should I charge? Especially when it comes to competition. That almost is like, oh, can we talk about that? How much do I charge? How do we figure out how much to charge? If there's anything I get asked the most is how much do you charge? How much should I charge? Is it based on experience? I don't think so. Because if you charge less, you're bringing the community down a little bit. But if you charge more, even if it, like, pains you, you can maintain that price point a little bit longer because raising your prices is very difficult. And also rise to the occasion. Charge more. Rise to the occasion. It all keeps us, like you mentioned, like, raises like that boat. If you start worrying about competition and competing. I had to compete against Groupon when I first started, and that was really difficult because social media really wasn't a way I could market. And I had to look at Groupon and be like, I can't charge $35 for a facial. Like, there's no way. Like, that's how much all my product cost. I can't do that. But charge more. Rise to the occasion and look at the competition, but also know your own value.

[Maggie Stasik]

Yeah, we've had a podcast about that. Charging your worth. And that's just it. Charge your worth. Know what you're worth. How much education have you put into getting to this point where you have these abilities? Plus, what's the cost of all of your product and all of your overhead? What are your clients willing to pay? I mean, if you're only charging $35, they'll. They're happy to pay that, but they may also be willing to pay $95.

[Tina Buckley]

A hundred percent. Yes. So I feel like the community over competition happens there too. Because if I want to make sure that my prices reflect my work, I want to make sure that they reflect the industry as a whole. Because I high. I hold it to a very high standard because I love this industry so much and the value I put on myself. I really want other estheticians to have that same value for themselves as well. Because we're supporting our family, our friends, we're empowering our clients. If our clients are empowered, our community is empowered. And I feel like sometimes we compete with prices even still. And I think we should just be leveling up as much as we possibly can to support each other. I really do feel like our price points do support other businesses. Yeah.

[Ella Cressman]

You don't want to undercut too much because then or you do. The thing is, there is a formula to find the perfect price and that is taking into account exactly what Maggie's saying. You have to take into account your overhead. You also have to take account into something that we mentioned earlier, and that is who's your ideal client and attracting them. But undercutting will get you the person who is looking for a deal. And that's great. If that's your niche too and you want that style, they might come more frequently, they might buy more product. Maybe that would work for you. It has to make sense for you what your business philosophies are, who your ideal client is and how much time it can be reflective. So if my prices are a little bit lower, I also might not be doing a 90 minute facial or even a 60 minute, but it's comprehensive and it's effective and they like it. They're coming, they're in, they're out next. So it has to make sense. There's a formula.

[Tina Buckley]

I love it.

[Ella Cressman]

Reach out, I'll help you.

[Tina Buckley]

I love it, I love it, I love it.

[Maggie Stasik]

Tina, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been a very thoughtful and thorough conversation on community over competition and I absolutely loved it.

[Tina Buckley]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Ella Cressman]

It was great to meet you in person too.

[Tina Buckley]

This is wonderful. I'm never going to leave now.

[Maggie Stasik]

Listeners, we want to hear from you. What are your thoughts on building a community over competition in the skincare industry? How have you seen this play out in your own journey or how do you plan to incorporate it moving forward, share with us on social media through Instagram, Facebook, or send us an [e-mail] in the meantime, thank you for listening to ASCPSDtalk. For more information on this episode or for ways to connect with Tina, Buckley, Ella or myself. Or to learn more about ascp, check out the show notes.