Ep 350 – The Rogue Pharmacist: Free Radicals

Summary

Episode Overview

ASCP Esty Talk Ep. 350 – The Rogue Pharmacist: Free Radicals features host Maggie Stasik and guest Benjamin Knight Fuchs, pharmacist and skincare formulator. The episode breaks down the misunderstood world of free radicals, their dual roles in skin health, and why antioxidants are crucial—especially for estheticians. Using accessible analogies and science-backed explanations, Ben demystifies oxidation and explains how estheticians can apply this knowledge in their practice.

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Main Theme

The episode centers on free radicals: what they are, why they’re not always “the enemy,” how they cause damage in the skin, and the critical role of antioxidants in both internal and topical skincare—particularly following treatments like peels, lasers, and microdermabrasion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding Free Radicals (00:20–05:40)

• What Are Free Radicals?

  • Ben uses the analogy of a “Mickey Mouse atom,” with each ear representing an electron. A healthy atom has two “ears.” When something steals an “ear,” you’re left with a destabilized, reactive atom—a free radical.
    • “Think of an atom as Mickey Mouse … These Mickey Mouse atoms like to have two ears … This unhealthy Mickey Mouse ear with one space is what we call free radical.” – Ben Fuchs [01:10]

• How Are Free Radicals Formed?

  • Oxygen is the main culprit, responsible for the process called “oxidation.”
  • Other environmental factors like chlorine, fluoride, and sunlight also contribute.
    • “The most important substance in our environment that knocks off the ear is oxygen. And this is what makes oxygen such a tricky substance to work with…” – Ben Fuchs [02:40]

• Oxidation Visible in Everyday Life:

  • Color changes due to bleach or fire are examples of large-scale oxidation/free radical activity.
    • “Fire is the visible observation of the stealing of Mickey Mouse ears … when it happens in a tiny little amount, you can’t really see it… But in a fire, you’re seeing billions, trillions maybe, of Mickey Mouse ears being stolen, and that’s observable as fire.” – Ben Fuchs [05:00]

2. Free Radical Damage in Skin & Health (05:41–08:30)

• Cell Membrane Vulnerability:

  • Free radicals hunt for electrons, often attacking cell membranes, proteins, and DNA.
    • “Cell membranes are very susceptible to damage from these rogue atoms … when cells are damaged, when the membranes are damaged, they start to release inflammatory fats.” – Ben Fuchs [06:50]

• Health Consequences:

  • Ongoing damage leads to inflammation, accelerated aging, mutations, and possibly cancer.
    • “When you have enough of these rogue atoms … eventually the DNA, the genetics, is going to get damaged. This is where mutations and ultimately cancers can come from.” – Ben Fuchs [07:30]

3. The Antioxidant Solution & Its Challenges (08:31–12:35)

• How Antioxidants Work:

  • Antioxidants are molecules with extra, loosely-held electrons (the “loose Mickey Mouse ear”), ready to donate to free radicals and neutralize them.
    • “That’s an antioxidant. Exactly. And antioxidants are so important … because they can contribute an ear to the atom so it can be filled so it doesn’t have to steal.” – Ben Fuchs [09:09]

• The Chain Reaction Problem:

  • Once an antioxidant donates an electron, it becomes a pro-oxidant and can, in turn, do damage unless replaced by another antioxidant.
    • “Once they do their work, they now become pro oxidants because they have a hole. And now they’re gonna go steal from a cell membrane…” – Ben Fuchs [09:29]
  • Continuous supply is needed—like musical chairs, the chain must never stop.

• Diet & Supplementation:

  • Best defense is a steady intake of antioxidants from diet (produce, especially—since plants are exposed to oxidative stress and thus rich in antioxidants) and supplements.
    • “You have to have a steady stream of antioxidants coming into the system. And that’s why it’s important to supplement and that’s why it’s important to make sure you’re eating your vegetables.” – Ben Fuchs [10:35]

4. Special Focus: Vitamin C, E, and Fats (12:36–13:50)

• Vitamin C:

  • Powerful antioxidant (fantastic at donating electrons), but its effectiveness makes it unstable and quick to turn into a pro-oxidant—the reason vitamin C serums often turn brown.
    • “Vitamin C is such a wonderful antioxidant, it’s also a pro oxidant. Anytime something is a really good antioxidant, it’s also going to lend itself to pro oxidation because it’s giving up its Mickey Mouse ear…” – Ben Fuchs [11:48]

• Vitamin E & Fats:

  • Fats are extremely susceptible to oxidation, with oxidized fats (lipid peroxides) being especially toxic.
    • Vitamin E, selenium, and alpha-lipoic acid are vital for protecting fats—and by extension, anti-aging and overall health.
      • “Protecting fats is absolutely critical. Probably the most important thing you could do for anti aging is protect your fats from oxidation…” – Ben Fuchs [12:28]

• Practical Takeaway:

  • Avoid heating oils, as heat accelerates oxidation—consume fresh oils and use more stable options like coconut oil or butter.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mickey Mouse Analogy

  • “Think of an atom as Mickey Mouse … These Mickey Mouse atoms like to have two ears … This unhealthy Mickey Mouse ear with one space is what we call free radical.” – Ben Fuchs [01:10]

• On Fire as Oxidation

  • “Fire is the visible observation of the stealing of Mickey Mouse ears … you’re seeing billions, trillions maybe, of Mickey Mouse ears being stolen, and that’s observable as fire.” – Ben Fuchs [05:00]

• On Antioxidant Supplementation

  • “You have to have a steady stream of antioxidants coming into the system. … That’s why it’s important to supplement and that’s why it’s important to make sure you’re eating your vegetables.” – Ben Fuchs [10:35]

• On Vitamin C’s Downside

  • “Anytime something is a really good antioxidant, it’s also going to lend itself to pro oxidation because it’s giving up its Mickey Mouse ear so effectively.” – Ben Fuchs [11:48]

• On Lipid Peroxides’ Danger

  • “Lipid peroxides are the most dangerous of the oxidized materials in the body. … Protecting fats is absolutely critical. … That’s why things like vitamin E and selenium and alpha lipoic acid are so, so important for anti aging…” – Ben Fuchs [12:28]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:20 – Introduction to Free Radicals & Oxidation
• 01:00 – “Mickey Mouse Atom” Analogy
• 02:40 – Oxygen as the Key Oxidizer
• 05:00 – Oxidation in Everyday Life (e.g., fire and bleach)
• 06:50 – Cellular Damage & Inflammation
• 07:30 – DNA Damage, Mutations, and Cancer
• 09:09 – What Are Antioxidants?
• 09:29 – The Pro-Oxidant Problem
• 10:35 – Why Continuous Antioxidant Intake is Crucial
• 11:48 – Vitamin C: The Good & The Challenging
• 12:28 – Lipid Peroxides and Protecting Fats
• 13:30 – Healthy Oil and Fat Habits

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Tone and Language

Ben Fuchs uses vivid analogies (“Mickey Mouse ear”), approachable metaphors, and consistent simplification to make chemistry accessible for estheticians and skincare pros, all while weaving in clear practical advice applicable in clinic and at home.

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Practical Takeaways for Estheticians

• Antioxidant Use: Always include antioxidants in post-treatment protocols to control inflammation and prevent free radical damage.
• Diet Matters: Encourage clients to eat plenty of fruits and vegetables.
• Supplement Wisely: Recommend supplementing with vitamin C, vitamin E, selenium, and alpha-lipoic acid for overall and skin health.
• Protect Fats: Advise against heating oils and prioritizing stable fats in diet and skincare.

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Summary

This episode of ASCP Esty Talk dives deep into the nuanced science of free radicals, making it relevant and actionable for estheticians. Antioxidants are not just a skincare buzzword—they are a daily necessity for combating oxidative damage, with diet, supplements, and careful skincare formulation all playing critical roles.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Welcome to ASCP and the Rogue Pharmacist with Benjamin Knight Fuchs. In each episode, we'll explore how internal and external factors can impact the skin. I'm Maggie Stasik, ASCP's program director. And joining me is Ben Fuchs, skincare formulator and pharmacist. Hi, Ben.

[A]

Hello, Maggie.

[B]

Free radicals get a bad rap and antioxidants are hailed as the ultimate defense. But the science is a little more nuanced. Are free radicals really the enemy or is there more to the story?

[A]

Well, there is more to the story, actually. Free radicals are functional. They play an important role in how cells talk to each other in cellular defense processes. But overall we get have way too many free radicals in our body and it is a major cause of inflammation and aging. Classic manifestation of free radicals for an esthetician would be after appealing. And that's one of the reasons why skin is irritated after a peel and quenching free radicals. I'll tell you about how you do that here in a second. After peels or after lasers or microderm or any ablative kind of therapy, treatment is a very important post treatment protocol for keeping inflammation down. So what exactly is a free radical, you know, without getting into too much chemistry? Because free radicals are really a quantum chemistry phenomena. To simplify it, you think of an atom as Mickey mouse, right? There's 100 plus atoms, 100 or so atoms, depending on how you count them on the periodic table. And this is very simplistic. So there are biochemists out there. I'm just trying to make this easy to understand. Think of an atom as Mickey Mouse. And think of each Mickey Mouse atom having two ears. Okay? Each one of those ears technically is an electron, but we'll just call Mickey Mouse ears. They're things in our environment that rip off Mickey Mouse ears. And all of a sudden now you have an atom with one ear, a Mickey Mouse Adam with one ear. Not a good situation, because Mickey Mouse ear. Mickey Adams like to have two ears. So this is a bad situation. So you can think of two Mickey Mouse ears in a healthy Adam, if you will, and one Mickey Mouse ear. One empty space in unhealthy Mickey Mouse ear. This unhealthy Mickey Mouse ear with one space is what we call free radical. Free radical is an atom with only one ear. Instead of a ear ear pair, it has an ear space pair or ear hole pair. Okay? That hole is the problem because Mickey Mouse likes to have two ears, not one ear and one hole. And it will look everywhere it can find another Mickey Mouse ear to fill up that hole. Before I get into how that hole is filled up, which is very important to understand, let's talk about how that Mickey Mouse ear gets knocked off in the first place. Right. What is it that knocks off the Mickey Mouse ear? That's a. That's a. An aggressive action, if you will, to have that ear cut off. Right. So what is it that knocks off the ear? Well, the most important substance in our environment that knocks off the ear is oxygen. And this is what makes oxygen such a tricky substance to work with because we need oxygen. We need oxygen to breathe. And in fact, ripping off Mickey Mouse ears, as it turns out, is very important for understanding how oxygen gives us energy or is responsible for energy. I'll tell you about that here in a second. But for now, I just want to say oxygen steals off that Mickey Mouse ear. Other things that can steal off the Mickey Mouse ear. And by the way, that's why we call that stealing of Mickey Mouse ear. Oxidation. Stealing a Mickey Mouse ear is called oxidation because the most important substance in our environment that knocks off Mickey Mouse ears is oxygen. But other things can do it too. There are other chemicals that can do it. Fluoride, chlorine, for example, will rip off Mickey Mouse ears. In fact, you can tell the effect of Mickey Mouse ear being knocked off by color change. Color changes are a sign of oxidation or stealing a Mickey Mouse ear. And in fact, you might. You may have. I don't know if you ever spilled chlorine or put chlorine in your laundry and then your T shirt comes out and there's all these big white spots on the T shirt. Right. Chlorine is bleach. Bleach is really oxidation. It's a type of oxidation. You're stealing a Mickey Mouse ear off the dye. Yeah.

[B]

I've got a question, and this may be not in line with what we're talking about here. When you have the letters ide. So fluoride or chloride, does that have to.

[A]

That refers. That refers to the electronic nature of the atom. How many? How many? You don't want to really go there necessarily, but that's how a chemist can. Can understand whether that chloride atom or the chlorine atomic has an extra piece of electricity or is short of a piece of electricity. And these pieces of electricity, by the way, are what I'm calling Mickey Mouse ears.

[B]

Okay, okay.

[A]

So just to simplify things, I'm saying that has two Mickey Mouse ears, But some atoms don't have two. Some atoms have three Some atoms have four, some atoms have one. And we call those chlorides or chlorates or, you know, we have a different suffix for them. But just to simplify things, I'm talking about two Mickey Mouse ears. Okay? Okay. So that's why I say if you're biochemists out there, I know that there's some things that have three Mickey Mouse ears, but not going to go there. So just to explain these Mickey Mouse ear phenomena, oxygen is the main stealer of Mickey Mouse ears leaving holes. That's why we call it oxidation. But chloride can do it. Or chlorine, I should say, can do it. Fluorine can do it. Photooxidation is one of the next. Oxygen is probably the most important way Mickey Mouse ears are stolen. So there's a lot of things in our environment that steel Mickey Mouse ears. Oxygen is the most famous one. That's why we call the process oxidation. So, interestingly, when a Mickey Mouse ear is stolen, it releases light. That energy that is produced by the theft of a Mickey Mouse ear produces light, which we've all seen. When you have wood and you have some kind of heat to accelerate the activity of oxygen. Wood plus heat plus oxygen leads to what? Fire. Fire. Fire is the visible observation of the stealing of Mickey Mouse ears. So one Mickey Mouse ear, you're not going to really see. But when a bunch of Mickey Mouse ears are stolen off of a log in combination with oxygen from your bellows, or even just oxygen from the air, you have a massive amount of Mickey Mouse ears being stolen off of the carbon atoms in your. In your log. And that's observable as fire. Which is interesting because you look at fire. Fire's not a thing. Fire is a process. We're observing the ripping off of Mickey Mouse ears. And when it happens in a tiny little amount, you can't really see it. Although if you have the right detection mechanisms, you could see it. But in a fire, you're seeing billions, trillions maybe, of Mickey Mouse ears being stolen, and that's observable as fire. So in any case, now you have these Mickey Mouse ears or these Mickey Mouses atoms with only one ear and there's a hole. That's not a good situation. Adams want two Mickey Mouse ears. So what they will do is they'll look around. Where can they find Mickey Mouse ears to steal from? And one of the most important places where they'll steal from is the cell membrane. The outside part of a cell has lots of ears, electrons. I'm calling them ears. But they're really electrons and cell membranes are very susceptible to damage from these rogue atoms with only one Mickey Mouse ear. And eventually, if you have enough of these rogue atoms with one Mickey with one ear and one hole, eventually you're gonna start to get cell membrane damage. This is where inflammation manifests, because when cells are damaged, when the membranes are damaged, they start to release inflammatory fats. And this is where inflammation can start to accrue. Accrue. And when it happens over and over and over again, it can lead to serious health problems as well as accelerated aging. Um, another place where you have lots of spare Mickey Mouse ears, if you will, where these rogue atoms that only have one ear and one hole will go to is the DNA. The genetics and mutations can occur at this level. When there's enough rogue atoms, free radicals. Is this making sense how I'm explaining? When you have enough of these rogue atoms with only one ear, one ear and one hole, eventually the DNA, the genetics, is going to get damaged. This is where mutations and ultimately cancers can come from. Proteins can get. Are a source for free Mickey Mouse ears, where these rogue atoms that only have one ear and one hole can steal from. So protein damage can occur between protein damage, cellular damage, inflammation, mutations. You can see this is a problem. So nature has come up, has come up with a way of filling up the holes without those rogue atoms having to steal from membranes or steal from DNA or steal from proteins to damage the proteins or the cell membranes or the DNA. And so there are these other molecules that have two Mickey Mouse ears, but one of their ears is a little loose, and they can donate. That's actually the word they use. They can donate a Mickey Mouse ear to quench the free radical to fill the hole up. And so now that hole will be happy, or that atom will be happy, because it'll have two Mickey Mouse ears, the hole will be filled. It won't have to steal. Make sense? Yep. Okay, so what do you think we call these molecules that are floating around with a loose Mickey Mouse ear that it can donate?

[B]

Antioxidants.

[A]

That's an antioxidant. Exactly. And antioxidants are so important for that reason, because they can contribute an ear to the atom so it can be filled so it doesn't have to steal. But we got a problem, because now that molecule that has donated its earth, now it has a hole. And so now it becomes from an. It goes from being an antioxidant to a pro oxidant. And this is very important, because antioxidants, once they do Their work, they now become pro oxidants because they have a hole. And now they're gonna go steal from a cell membrane or steal from DNA or steal from a protein or other sources of Mickey Mouse ears, I. E. Electrons. So how do you take care of that with another molecule that has a loose Mickey Mousey or a loose electron that it can donate. But now you got another problem because now that molecule has an empty space where it used to have a Mickey Mousey or ie, an electron. So another antioxidant has to come in. And this is why you have to have a steady stream of antioxidants coming into your system. Because if you. It's like musical chairs. If you stop putting that stream of antioxidants, eventually there's gonna be a molecule with only one electron or one ear and a hole, and it can do damage. So you have to have a steady stream of antioxidants. And that's the purpose for eating your vegetables, taking your nutritional supplements, using antioxidants on the skin. And you never stop doing it. You have to keep a steady stream of it happening. And nature is replete, filled with so many different antioxidants that you could use. And they're all slightly different in the sense that they contribute their loose Mickey Mouse here, loose electron a little differently to rogue or free radicals, rogue atoms with only one ear and with only one ear and one hole. So you have to have a steady stream of antioxidants coming into the system. And that's why it's important to supplement and that's why it's important to make sure you're eating your vegetables. And by the way, vegetables and, and fruits, produce are the most important source, dietary source of antioxidants. Why do you suppose that is? Because their response, they're in the sun, they thrive in the sun and they're susceptible to photo oxidation. So nature has designed a system where they're going to be filled with protective molecules with antioxidants to allow them to be out in the sun. Because the sun is, along with oxygen, is a major source of, of oxidation. Plus plants are producing oxygen. So they're going to be really, really susceptible to this oxidation damage, whether it's from the sun or whether it's from their, their metabolism. So nature has designed a system where they're going to be filled with these loose, these, these molecules that have a loose Mickey Mouse ear electron. I hope that's not too weird, the whole Mickey Mouse ear thing. But so, so plants and vegetables are going to be your best source of antioxidant. And that's why it's among other reasons why it's so important to eat produce and eat, eat veggies and fruits and then also supplement. And there's lots of wonderful supplements. In fact, that's why vitamin one of vitamin C's main roles. Vitamin C is such a wonderful antioxidant because it has such a loose Mickey Mouse here. But that also makes vitamin C a pro oxidant. And that for skincare professionals, creates somewhat of a problem with vitamin C. And that's why vitamin C products will, as everybody knows, will turn brown. And that's one of the big issues with vitamin C is because it's such a wonderful antioxidant. It's also a pro oxidant. Anytime something is a really good antioxidant, it's also going to be a, it's going to lend itself to pro oxidation because it's giving up its Mickey Mouse ear. So effectively. Vitamin E is a particularly important antioxidant because it protects fats. And fats are very, very susceptible to oxidation. And fat, in fact, fats are probably the most important type of molecule when it comes to oxidation because they're so loaded with electrical energy. And so fats are very, very, very susceptible to oxidation. And that's why I think we talked on our last podcast about seed oils. That's the problem with seed oils and that's the problem with fats is they're very, very prone to oxidation. And the oxidative result of, or the, the result of oxidation of a fat is especially problematic. They call them lipid peroxides. I don't know if you ever heard that term. These lipid peroxides, they're especially, especially dangerous because they can react with cell membranes and react with DNA much more effectively than other oxidative byproducts. So lipid peroxides are the most dangerous of the oxidized materials in the body. And protecting fats is absolutely critical. Probably the most important thing you could do for anti aging is protect your fats from oxidation. And that's why things like vitamin E and selenium and alpha lipoic acid are so, so important for anti aging and for overall health is because they're specific for protecting fats from oxidation and also not heating your oils, because heat is one of the ways that oxidation of fats occurs. And that's why it's so important to eat your oils fresh or stay with coconut oil or butter, which has, which is much more stable than the vegetable oils which are incredibly unstable. And that's where all the problems associated with seed oils come from.

[B]

That concludes our show for today, and we thank you for listening. But if you just can't get enough of Ben Fuchs, the ASCP's rogue pharmacist, you can find [e-mail] for more information on this episode, or for ways to connect with Ben Fuchs, or to learn more about ascp, check out the show notes.