Episode Summary: "Building a New Gaza"

Podcast: Ask Haviv Anything
Host: Haviv Rettig Gur
Guest: Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, Director, Realign for Palestine (Atlantic Council project)
Date: October 3, 2025
Episode: 47

Overview

In this compelling and timely episode, Haviv Rettig Gur interviews Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib, a Gazan-born policy expert and director of Realign for Palestine. Airing one day after the joint Trump-Netanyahu announcement of a new Gaza peace plan, the episode explores whether a genuine “day after” for Gaza can be realized – one that isn’t just about defeating Hamas, but about rebuilding the territory, transforming its governance, and reimagining its future. Ahmed offers uniquely personal insights, reflecting on his own tragic losses in the war and his conviction that transformation and reconciliation must replace cycles of revenge. The conversation navigates the practicalities, pitfalls, and possible models for transition in Gaza, with special focus on the controversial roles of international stabilization, Palestinian Authority, and local actors.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reactions to the Trump-Netanyahu Gaza Plan

[03:38–12:37]

• Haviv’s View: Thrilled by the plan's shift towards rebuilding Gaza, comparing it to post-WWII reconstruction:

  • “If the war is about getting out Hamas and building that new day for Gaza, then a whole lot of pain and suffering and sadness is legitimate. And if it is not about that, then none of it's legitimate.” – Haviv [04:28]
  • The plan’s explicit public commitment by Netanyahu (for the first time) to Gaza’s rebuilding is seen as historic and positive.
  • Welcomes hostage release as a “cover” for Netanyahu to sell the deal domestically.

• Ahmed’s Initial Response:

  • Sees the plan as a sharp U-turn from previous talk of ethnic cleansing and forced displacement.
  • Applauds the clear inclusion of a transitional phase for Gaza, not a naive “miraculous day after.”
  • Praises the plan’s modular, phased approach, allowing progress area-by-area and inviting Arab/regional involvement.
  • Stresses the importance of a “stabilization mission” (not traditional UN peacekeeping), a more flexible, rapid intervention force.
  • Expresses hope the plan can jumpstart the broader Abraham Accords and Israel-Arab cooperation.
  • As a Gazan with deep personal losses, Ahmed emphasizes the need for true transformation, not just reconstruction:
    “I am very interested in transformation and rejuvenation… Gaza needs to be reconstituted, reimagined in terms of just the engineering, the social engineering of what the territory should look like. And so I'm hopeful and optimistic amidst a sea of pessimism, let's just say.” – Ahmed [11:46]

2. Ahmed’s Personal Story and Motivation

[12:37–19:55]

• Ahmed details his Gazan roots, his family’s role as professionals, and traumatic personal history:
  • Grew up in Gaza; his father ran an UNRWA clinic; attended UNRWA schools.
  • Survived Israeli bombings, lost hearing, had multiple near-death experiences.
  • Left for the US at 15 in a bridge-building State Department program.
  • Unable to return after summer 2006, when Hamas abducted Gilad Shalit and war closed borders.
  • Lost numerous family members and his childhood home to IDF bombings post-October 7.
  • Despite anger and pain, channelled experience toward bridge-building and advocating for Gazan renewal:
    “I made a decision not to be hateful and not to be vengeful. And I in fact, quadrupled down on my resentment towards Hamas and towards the jihadi nihilism that they have unleashed upon our people for 18 years. And I have chosen to connect with Israeli hostage families and survivors of October 7th and to build bridges and to really use this as a genuine opportunity for healing and reconciliation.” – Ahmed [17:56]

3. Can International (or Local) Forces Stabilize Gaza?

[24:44–39:46]

• Haviv’s Skepticism: Draws lessons from failed UN peacekeeping (UNIFIL in Lebanon), doubts any international force will “fight Hamas.”

  • “The UN is an umbrella that doesn't work in the rain. It works right up until there's rain.” – Haviv quoting Abba Eban [23:58]
  • Asserts any foreign force will withdraw at the first casualty.

• Ahmed’s Model for Transition & Security:

  • Rejects UNIFIL 2.0; calls for layered approach:

    • International stabilization force to secure aid, deter lawlessness, project authority.
    • Phased modular security: “Slow entry,” building “bubbles” of stabilized, demilitarized areas (referencing Petraeus’ “Disneyland strategy” in Iraq).
    • Sees potential in auxiliary forces (e.g., Abu Shabaab’s clan militias with anti-Hamas orientation)—but recognizes risk of ‘death squads’ and challenge of scaling up without Israeli dependency.
    • Proposes shared command among PA, local forces, possibly even lightly armed international “contractor” elements, with intelligence and drone support.

    “You have to be flexible in thinking, okay, the international force is going to stabilize civilian areas, the Palestinian Authority does heavy policing in Palestinian communities. And then as an auxiliary… you get these militias that all report to the shared command and control structure.” – Ahmed [34:15]

  • Admits this is messy, lacking a “silver bullet”—but sees it as the only path; initial chaos gives way to “new elements, new people with guns under new legitimate umbrellas.”

  • Haviv engages optimistically: Sees success if “such a cadre of Palestinians” can defeat Hamas—they get “Gaza, they get to rule Gaza.” [39:46]

4. The Palestinian Authority: Solution or Stumbling Block?

[39:46–59:32]

• Haviv’s Challenge: Argues Netanyahu sees the PA as “just another version of Hamas,” unable to present a genuinely peaceful vision—cites their narrative as still fundamentally anti-Israel, even if less violent.

  “The PA is not fit for purpose. If the purpose is a Palestine that is next to us, safe, peaceful, prosperous… that’s not something the PA can deliver because its basic narrative about us is no different.” – Haviv [42:39]

• Ahmed's Nuanced Take:

  • Is not an ideological supporter of the PA; acknowledges its corruption, unpopularity (even among Palestinians).
  • Sees PA’s legitimacy crisis as partly driven by Netanyahu’s policies, but largely a function of its own weakness and inability to upend the “resistance” narrative.
  • Criticizes PA’s reluctance to clearly reject Hamas or support hostages release; frustrated by lack of new blood (“they deliberately block out new rising characters and leadership personalities…” [47:13]).
  • Argues, despite all, the PA’s presence is “better than nothing”—it fulfills some administrative necessities, and its corruption can be addressed later:
    “There is the belief… [among] very senior Arab leadership… their corruption is something that could be addressed down the road. What they are more fearful of is an existential crisis facing the Palestinian people without the PA…” – Ahmed [45:31]

5. The Need for Palestinian Renewal and Structural Change

[59:32–66:31]

• Ahmed’s Vision: Argues for a new “mid-tier professional class” to emerge—teachers, engineers, artists, outside the Hamas/Fatah binary. Strong faith in Gazan educational capital and ability to self-reinvent if basic freedoms and safety are secured.

• Insists “the renaissance of Gaza is there, it's ready” if leadership creates space:
  “I am confident that the Gaza Strip has the highest per capita rate of PhDs, the highest per capita rate of master's degree… and the Palestinian territories, the lowest illiteracy rates in the entire Arab region… we need [a] leadership to create the minimal conditions for the aforementioned categories to rise to the mid-tier professional class.” – Ahmed [59:54]

• Believes the war’s horror may have fundamentally weakened the hold of “armed resistance” ideology on Gazan society; Hamas’s “narrative has collapsed”—won’t be able to “brainwash” society as before.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ahmed: “I made a decision not to be hateful and not to be vengeful…” [17:56]
• Haviv: “The UN is an umbrella that doesn’t work in the rain. It works right up until there’s rain.” [23:58]
• Ahmed: “What excites me about the idea of the regional and international stabilization force… is that then you’re introducing new elements, new people with guns under new legitimate umbrellas.” [37:40]
• Ahmed: “You have to be flexible in thinking…” (on security force composition) [34:15]
• Haviv: “We fail until we succeed, right? Which is generally how things work.” [58:27]
• Ahmed: “The renaissance of Gaza is there, it’s ready… I want to use the opportunity that maybe this deal could be the beginning of that.” [60:35]

Key Timestamps

• [03:38] – Haviv lays out his support for the plan and its historical significance
• [05:59] – Ahmed critiques past plans, welcomes the pivot in current proposal
• [12:59] – Ahmed’s personal story, losses, and motivation for bridge-building
• [24:44] – Discussion of security transition forces; risks of “UNIFIL 2.0”
• [34:15] – Ahmed lays out a layered, hybrid approach to post-war security
• [39:46] – Haviv on incentives for new Gazan ruling cadre
• [42:39] – Deep-dive on PA’s suitability and possible alternatives
• [59:54] – Ahmed on the potential for Gazan intellectual and social revival
• [66:31] – Wrap-up: both participants exchange hopes for social transformation

Conclusion

This episode offers a rare, nuanced look at the practical and existential dilemmas facing Gaza’s future. Haviv’s cautious Israeli realism and Ahmed’s Gazan-rooted optimism create a lively, honest, and emotionally resonant dialogue. While both recognize the immense obstacles to transformation—suspicion of the PA, enduring trauma, risk from spoilers like Hamas—they share a belief that with the right frameworks, a “new Gaza” is possible. Ahmed’s conviction that Gazan society is ready for renewal—if only the right conditions emerge—adds hope to the grim political landscape.

Essential listen for anyone seeking to understand what’s at stake, and where hope might lie, in a post-Hamas Gaza.