Loading summary
Transcript83 lines
- [00:09]
A
Hi everybody. Welcome to a very special episode of Ask Aviv Anything. We are recording on October 7th and I have with me Elishehabi, a man who spent 491 days in Hamas captivity after he was taken from Kibbutz Berish, a man who lost his family on October 7th. We're going to dive into all the difficult pictures. I think Elie entered Israeli consciousness most powerfully in his release. Everybody knew the names and we talked about, but seeing his emaciated form, how he was treated by Hamas, we're going to talk about that, about the family, about his extraordinary new book, Hostage. It was a runaway bestseller in Hebrew and it is now out in English. And it has so many rich, complex insights. It's the first book published by a hostage to come out of Hamas captivity. And so let's get into it. Before we dive into the conversation with ELIE on this two year anniversary of the October 7th massacre, I want to tell you that we have a sponsor this week that is, I think, very powerful and poignant. It's a family that took the time to tell itself, to tell its new generation its own amazing story in the 20th century. And I want to thank them not just for the sponsorship, but for sharing that story. The 20th century sent a lot of Jews on very strange and unexpected paths. They started out not speaking generally English and Hebrew and ended up with almost all of them speaking either English or Hebrew. And those many tortuous paths they made to many different places in the world is also part of the story of this family. The episode was sponsored by Doug and Fabienne Silverman in memory of the Jewish community of Rhodes, a Sephardi community where Fabien's mother Maggie's family came from. Much of the community perished during World War II when the community was rounded up and sent to Auschwitz. Fortunately, Fabienne's grandparents were among those who fled to Africa. They wound up in the Belgian Congo. Maggie's father and uncles were committed Zionists. They actually worked with the Irgun, with the Etzel, and in Central Africa, for example, in the operation to free the former Irgun chief commander Yaakov Meridor from prison in British ruled Uganda after he was sent there by the British to get him basically out of out of the land of Israel, out of Palestine. Much of the family eventually made aliyah, although Maggie met Fabienne's father Jose in South Africa and they moved to the US in 1969 instead of Israel. Doug and Fabienne sponsored this episode in honor of their family trip to Rhodes in the summer of 2025 to show their children where their great grandparents lived and where their ancestors made and built an amazing Jewish community going all the way back to the Inquisition. A community that is no longer here. Thank you for that sponsorship. I want to invite everyone to join. Also our Patreon. If you're interested in asking the questions that guide the topics we talk about, please join us. There's a great discussion forum there. I participate in it. We have some fascinating, interesting people who are constantly bringing in new and interesting information, links and things that we all share. You also get to join our monthly live streams, where last time it was two straight hours. I answer all the questions that you bring live. It's fun. It's always meaningful, even when it isn't fun, because sometimes we talk about great tragedies. Join us at www.patreon.com askhavivanything. The link is obviously in the show notes, so let's get to it before, before we get into October 7th, which on this day we all remember, and we Israelis who sat on our whatsapps and followed hour by hour as realization dawned of the scale of what was actually happening and of the collapse of the Israeli military in that moment, we all experience that and we all remember that almost that hour by hour on this day, nobody experienced it more closely, more brutally, more catastrophically than Elie Sharabi. Elie, thank you for joining me on this day.
- [04:16]
B
It's my honor. Thank you very much.
- [04:19]
A
You have this new book out. I have seen many interviews with you. You relate powerfully, painfully, a lot of what happened. My friend Barry Weiss interviewed you on the Honestly podcast at the Free Press. And some of that story is there, and I urge people to go see it. Maybe we'll even put it in the show. Not so you can get there quickly. So, you know, I don't want to get in detail into your story unless you specifically want to tell that story. Although I will be asking about your family in a moment. But I want to ask you why you wrote a book in Hebrew to Israelis. A lot of people have been released. A lot of people have been gotten out. They haven't been writing books. Why tell your story? What do you want Israelis to know that's for the Hebrew book? And what do you want the world to know now that it's out in English?
- [05:08]
B
First of all, I think it's a very important testimony from 491 days of captivity. You know, what happened to my family on October 7th, all the details. But it's much more Than that. It's about even then, in all this darkness, in that period of captivity, I wanted people know that you always can find some light that give you strength to survive. And just the thought of who you're surviving for can give you a lot of strength and keep you alive.
- [05:56]
A
That's a recurring theme in the book. It keeps coming up, how people actually deal. Even one hostage who was with you wanted to commit suicide. And how you create that space for hope. I want to get to that part of the book also. But I have to tell you, the hardest part of the book is, of course, Noya and Yael, your daughters. I can't even. I can't even ask a question. On October 7, you said to them as you were being taken away, whatever they do to me, I will be back. And 16 months later, you come out and that's when you learn that they were killed on that very first day in your home. And you have talked about them in ways. I have kids, and my kids map onto yours very, very precisely. There was Yahel, the crazy one who forced you to go skydiving. No kid of mine has yet managed that, but so well done. And there was Noya, the quiet one who volunteered with autistic kids. Can you tell us about them?
- [07:02]
B
They were amazing daughters. Really, really good. They had great childhood in kibbutz. Lots of activities around the field. Very happy, you know, very happy with their friends.
- [07:18]
A
And.
- [07:20]
B
Each one of them were amazing. On her way. Noya just loved to see kids that struggled and helped them and see them and see them as they are, and. And she was fascinated about the things she can learn from them, actually. And she loved every moment around them. She finished her duty of 50 hours from her school a long, long time ago, and she stayed with them more than two years even. She had lots of homework and lots of duties in the kibbutz. She loved music. It was our, you know, really like, bonding time for me and her. Go to concerts, to Israeli music and. And we talked about that and we laughed a lot at home. And Yael. Yael was very extreme girl. She loves. She liked to play football, you know, and scuba diving. She just finished her course. We plan to go to dive in Thailand. And last week, I've just done it for her in Thailand, I did scuba diving for her. And I remember her in every bed I took underwater. And, you know, I remember them all the time. I remember them smiling. That's what's important.
- [09:10]
A
Ellie, this conversation feels like a violation, me asking you about your life and that and everything You've lost. It's hard to do because I don't. But you yourself have wanted to tell this. You want to talk about them and that's why this is. I want to. How do you go on?
- [09:33]
B
Well, first of all, I love life and life is continue and I can do anything, anything to bring back Neue Yael Leanne, my wife. If somebody would tell me to stay in bed and cry all day, bring them back, I would do that. But I know I'm very practical man and I know that I need to continue with my life to rebuild it. And this is the best way to honor their memory, make them, you know, proud of me. And that's what I'm doing since my release.
- [10:12]
A
You talk in the book about once you're taken by the Hamas terrorists who came into Kibbutz Berry. You enter Gaza and you and it was a planned organized assault. You describe how the point the goal was to kidnap Israelis civilians as hostages. And you saw a lot of things that drove you to the conclusion that well, to some conclusions about Gaza and Gazins and Gazan society. For example, you were held in a house for the first 50 days of a family. You were on the roof of this well to do family connected to Hamas, but nevertheless civilians. You talk in the book about how you never considered trying to flee because the population in Gaza, the civilian population was so hostile and you didn't think you could possibly flee into the civilian population of Gaza without being in more danger. And some of the most dangerous times you faced were when Hamas moved you between tunnels because it meant passing through the civilian population. Your experience literally Hamas bringing you in on October 7th. They had to fend off Gazans tri ordinary people trying to lynch you when they discovered that they were carrying an Israeli with them. Can you tell us about that? What conclusions do you have? You drawn from your experience not about Hamas and geopolitics and strategy and terrorism, but about Gazans.
- [11:37]
B
So it was exactly like you said. I remember that you know Hamas terrorists telling us that to be quiet and because they are scared that civilians from outside will hear that we are not local in this house and they will come in and lynch us and kill Hamas terrorists as well. So from my experience, my own experience, all the civilians I faced in this time in captivity in Gaza, I haven't seen any of them, that they're uninvolved, so called for what we hear.
- [12:19]
A
Let me expand that. You, you are a fluent Arabic speaker. You were one of the few who were fluent Arabic speakers before going in and so you had also these very rich conversations which some of the most interesting pieces in the book for me, things I had never didn't have access to, was what Hamas guys were talking about in the tunnels. But before we get into that, so expand that to other sources of information, not just your personal experience, which by definition was very close to Hamas in Gaza. How do you understand Gazan society? In other words, if we're talking now about there's now peace talks that you know, with any luck, with God's help we'll get out Alon Oil and all the other hostages living and dead, but we are now talking about the day after the future. What do you understand about Gazan society as an observer and as someone who experienced it that we should know going forward?
- [13:10]
B
I understand that there's lots of ignorant about Israel and Israelis. So they talk really like of course they are brainwashed. They believe everybody want to kill them all the time. That you wake up in the morning and say, you know, and think how you can kill more Palestinians today. And after they know me a little bit for a few days and one of them said to me, well I wish everybody was the same like you. And I said to him, most of Israelis are like me. Nobody want to kill you. Everybody want peace and to live next to you and with you. So you can see there's loads of ignorance, especially among the young people because the terrorists above 15 plus in their age, most of them used to work in Israel, know a little bit about Israel, talked with them about Christian Tel Aviv and what they've done and people they knew in the past and how they remember them as a good people. And you know, you analyze them all the time. So we divided them between the young and the grown up people because the young ones were more, they wanted to humiliate you every day and they had lots of rage. And so it wasn't the young ones.
- [15:00]
A
To be there, were more radicalized, the young ones were more angry. Now they didn't live in under worse conditions. I mean by the time the war came, obviously they did, but they how do you explain it? Is it we're seeing radicalization among young people in the west where you know, because of social media, algorithms and all this kind of stuff. What's driving what, what it's literally just that they didn't have, didn't experience Israelis as much as, you know, 30 year old.
- [15:28]
B
They are brainwashed, they are brainwashed in their mosques, but religious people and they know really, really little about what's around them. So it's a Problem. It's a problem. You have to, if you want to change anything in the future, you have to re educate all of them. You know.
- [15:55]
A
I guess the young ones would have been in a Hamas education system for 17 years. Right. So if you're 20 in Gaza, that was your high school, that was your middle school, that was your elementary school. Something that wouldn't be true of a 30 year old Gaza. There would have been other parts, other, it would not have been quite as inculcated.
- [16:10]
B
I think 40, 50 plus. They are more, you know, experienced. They experienced Israelis. In the past.
- [16:21]
A
You talk about Hamas, not just the civilians, the Hamas themselves. You play cards with them, you have these long conversations. You're in there almost 500 days and they start coming at you with these political diatribes. They're going to conquer England, they're going to conquer the world. They're the spearhead of jihad, a world jihad after they take over the Jews. And your conclusion is they're isolated and know nothing about the world. Tell us about that. What do they talk about in those tunnels? What is the conversation between Hamas guys themselves?
- [16:57]
B
Sometimes it's basic, you know, conversations about things. But every time, in every conversation it's end by that. First of all, they are going to come in the next year and the day after and the next day after that to finish their job and about the Israelis, about the Jews and then they expand that to there's no way but Islam in the world. So they're going to occupy Britain and United States and France and Germany. And that's what they said in every conversation.
- [17:41]
A
And, and they were once watching a brand new movie out of America with this guy, Leonardo DiCaprio.
- [17:51]
B
Yeah.
- [17:52]
A
And they were just so excited about this amazing new movie. And after they talked about it, you came to the conclusion that it was what.
- [18:00]
B
Yeah, it was one of them that he used to watch it with, with his wife. And he was very happy about that. And I saw, you know, I remember he said to me that he liked, he liked to dance, but Hamas doesn't really like men dancing with women and things like that. And so I understood that he's not really believing Hamas way, it just is way to, you know, get some money from organization that can give his family, you know, some food.
- [18:40]
A
The incentive structure forces everybody to be part of in one way or another, Hamas. But you wrote that it was the movie Titanic that they were still thrilled about. This brand new American movie that's 30 years old.
- [18:53]
B
Brand new movie. Yeah, 25 years ago, something like that.
- [18:57]
A
As a Sign of just their isolation. You found a society that was just deeply, deeply kind of cut off from the conversation happening in the rest of the world.
- [19:05]
B
You're right. Yes. Amazing. Amazing how people instill in 20, 20, 23, 24, it was that time live. You know, it's not, it wasn't 1970 or something like that. You have Internet, you have, you know, everything that you can, you can reach to information. But they are still, still going to mosques and brainwashed by religious things.
- [19:35]
A
There was one other thing that I thought was really fascinating was you were, you were underground in the tunnel with Elia Cohen or Lev and alone oil.
- [19:44]
B
Yes.
- [19:45]
A
And one of the things that the Hamas guys like to tell you was that all you had to do was go back to where you came from. Right. Was leave occupied Palestine and just go back and you had an exchange where, you know, they said this to one of the guys, they said this to one of the guys who's from, I think Iranian Jew. Right. A Persian Jewish. And you said, where's he going to go back to? You think he can go back to Iran? That was such a fascinating little exchange. What they think about us versus what we actually are. Can you tell us more about that? In other words, you said at the beginning also, they don't know much about us. What don't they know about us? How much if they knew, what would they need to know for their own sense of this war, of this endless conflict to change?
- [20:35]
B
You know, first of all, when you making these conversations with them, you have to be very careful before what you say. And you can't really can say everything. You can, you know, you think and you believe you need to play their, you know, their game now in this conversation. And so I just suggest them, okay, no problem. Elia will come back to Iran, I'll come back to Yemen and each one of us, no problem. Just give us, just, you know, reassure us that we can go back there and we will do no problem. And please let know all the Israelis that can go to Libya and to Syria and to Lebanon, all these places that our, our grandfathers and grandmothers came from. And we will do it, no problem. This is the kind of the way that sometimes it took the conversation and to a little bit to challenge them. You know, you can't say to them they are talking bullshit and all this. So.
- [21:39]
A
Do you think they understood that you were telling them this is something that can't happen or were they so ignorant of.
- [21:45]
B
Yeah, when you face them with that, no problem, I'm willing to Go back to Iran or to Yemen or to Morocco. No problem. I will do it. Just please give me the, that, you know, sign for me here and here and here that I can do it and I can live there. And no problem, because this is where my, my grandfather came from.
- [22:07]
A
You. And just to finish up with these really fascinating insights, there's so much more in the book about, about the Hamas terrorists themselves. You describe how about a year, I think, last October, roughly, you start hearing them crying at night. They are, you describe them as exhausted by the fighting, by the losses. They themselves want a deal to the point where during the election, the United States election back in November, they're rooting for Trump to win. Hamas fighters are following the elections closely. They're hearing Trump talk about making peace, ending the war. They think he's a force that can do that, that he can force an end to the war. And they celebrate his inauguration in January. Tell us about that.
- [22:56]
B
Well, first of all, they expected that after October 7, 2023, this war will take maybe a month or two maximum. And they were very, very surprised. And they tell us all the time, Bibi is crazy. What he wants from us. Bibi is crazy. He killed enough. Why he doesn't want Hamas will be, you know, in the government of Gaza. All these questions they came to us and in all this way, all these times that they heard about, you know, about peace talks in Egypt, in Qatar, and all this make them very happy because they wanted it to finish. And after a year, what you said around September, October of 24, they were really, they had enough. They cried almost every night to their pillows. And friends of them tried to, you know, to cheer them up. And they said it will finish soon. And some of them had panic attacks from time to time. We could hear them almost not, you know, breathing and fainting. And they really, really counted about Trump to do something differently from Biden and maybe he will stop Bibi Netanyahu. And they counted the days until they swap. And so you can say it's maybe they were right, you know, and Trump did a few things differently from Biden because after he was elected, it was a deal that I was released in this deal and other 32 hostages. And now you can see that is when he wants to push this peace agreement. It can do that.
- [25:13]
A
But what do you think the Hamas rank and file think now? In other words, it's still, you know, we're in October.
- [25:21]
B
I think they're almost finished, if you think, if you ask me, and they will take anything now to Finish, you know, this war and to come to disagreement. They've seen almost nothing left there. And, you know, if you ask me, maybe some of them. Some of them now regret about October 7th.
- [25:50]
A
I think the more times we hear Hamas leaders like Ghazi Hamad speaking on cnn saying he doesn't regret it, the more we should understand that he's responding to a discourse within Hamas that is asking if it was worth it, if any of it was worth it. Do you think. How deeply do you think. How much do you think they regret it? From what you understand to them, well.
- [26:10]
B
And from inside to see all the other. They can say a lot of things. There's a really, really big gap about what they're saying and how they feel really. And when they say they want to be shaheed like a holy man and to die for their land, but the minute that they put. They gave them the gun and said to them, okay, go up. Go up from the tunnel to fight. This is your time. You could see their fear in their eyes and start crying and all this. And we've seen it more than three or four guys that were with us. And it was a time that they needed to go to fight, and you could see their reaction. So. And they say they're not afraid to go to fight and all this, but they're still in 50 meters underground, hiding. So there's different between what they say and what they feel.
- [27:08]
A
Did you ever see anyone other than Hamas in the tunnels? Were civilians ever allowed in? This is something we know didn't happen, but did it ever? Was anyone allowed to take shelter in those tunnels alongside the Hamas guys? No.
- [27:24]
B
No, never at all. Not at all. I saw just only Hamas there. So they didn't let anyone to, you know, to hide there or, you know, be protected there from the bombs. They took care of themselves. And especially we've seen, you know, how they steal the humanitarian aid from their own population, from the Palestinians. We've seen dozens of boxes coming into the tunnels every week, every two weeks. And we've seen the signs.
- [28:01]
A
Boxes. You mean boxes marked with the un.
- [28:03]
B
With the adhd, with the un and that's arrived from Egypt and Turkey. We've seen all this food. Of course, we didn't eat from this food. They ate four, five times a day, and we ate one meal a day. So they had enough food for themselves.
- [28:22]
A
So they did not show concern for the civilian population. It was always a God of mass. You write in the book about hunger, about the starvation, about the cruelty, the purposefulness of it, the Mockery of it. At one point, you tell your captors that you are fainting from hunger and you're actually worried. And they bring a doctor who says they can continue to starve you. Do you remember that moment?
- [28:51]
B
Well, I remember that they coming to check us because we were begging for food all the time and we fainted and we show some, you know, some concern, you know, signs of our body. And. And they brought the doctor and he checked us and he saw that the blood pressure is not okay. But the commander there, who we call the Spitz in this book, said to him, well, they probably eat better than me and they're fine, don't worry. That's what he said to the doctor.
- [29:34]
A
But this doctor, I don't know if to use quotes, he gave them permission to continue to starve you. In other words, the point was to starve you?
- [29:41]
B
Well, yes, you know, he said, well, they maybe need the vitamins and all this, but they. For the meantime, even the blood pressure is high or low. It depends which one of us. My blood pressure was very high. It wasn't really concern them. And you know, alone Oil his injury in his eye didn't really concern them. And said to him, maybe we hope that you'll be blind for all your life. That was the answer for him.
- [30:17]
A
There was a moment where Itamar Bengville, the minister who's in charge of the police in the Israeli government and also the prison system, announced that there would be more restrictions and harsher conditions for Nukhba Force, Hamas, Nukba force fighters in Israeli prisons. Those are the people who spearheaded the actual invasion on October 7th, Hamas's elite force. And that caused your captors to tell you that you're going to go down from two meals a day, which is what it was at the beginning, down to. Down to one. Have you spoken to Itamal Ben Gvil in general, the pronouncements of that kind of. That kind of belligerent kind of posturing by the Israeli, by certain Israeli politicians, that's red, that's seen in those Hamas tunnels, that influences Hamas's treatment of the hostages.
- [31:12]
B
So first of all, anything that Hamas watched television and radio and read newspapers and everything from the Israeli media. So every, Every time that any politician felt that he wants to, you know, to be proud for what he's doing, something against the Palestinian or something like that affect us immediately, we felt that they said that to us. That's facts. It's not something I'm thinking or I'm analyzing or something like that. They came and said, that's what they said in the news. So what? We're going to do the same to you. So that was. And I haven't spoken with Beitamar Ben gvir. I don't need to speak with him. For someone who says that I'm the voice of Hamas after I've been 491 days after my family were slaughtered, you know, I don't need to argue with him. I'm just saying the facts that happened there and that's it. So I said to the Shabak head and defense minister of Israel, I said to him, it's okay to do whatever you believe, to do your job. Just trying not to talk about it, because that effect immediately on the hostages.
- [33:02]
A
They can't help talking about it. They're constantly talking about it. And people like Itamar Bengvir do nothing but talk about it all the time. I don't want to drag you into politics, but specifically on the question of hostages, I do want to see, just if you have a specific view, do you think the government has done what it can? They're terrible, terrible questions about ending the war and continuing the war. Hamas taking over Gaza. If we let hostages be the thing that ends all wars, they'll take more hostages. All of those questions, they're big, they're enormous. Thank God I'm not prime minister of anything. But nevertheless, have they done what they could do you feel blame, anger, concern. Itamar Benkvir is easy because he really is that kind of a ridiculous bully. The fact that he's prime, you know, the fact that he's the prime minister has made him minister of the police is its own question. But has the Israeli government done enough to get the hostages out? How do you feel about that?
- [34:04]
B
Again, I'm not a politician. I'm not going to give any grades, not to politicians, especially not the prime minister. It is, you know, he has his own way to run this state of Israel and to manage, you know, to be a manager of all this war. And what I think that can, you know, can end it one day or can end these threats on Israel and Israel is. I'm sure, I'm sure he believed that. But from, you know, you cannot ignore, from the fact that I was there 500 days and still people there more than 730 days. And it's just, it's shocking. It's, it's, you know, their families are really devastated from this situation, and we need to bring them back as soon as we can.
- [35:08]
A
And.
- [35:10]
B
That'S It.
- [35:13]
A
Okay, I want to just real quick, I'm going to. I want to ask about that moment of the release. And you talk in the book about hope being a muscle you have to exercise, which I think is very powerful, and also how you actually exercised it in the tunnels. But I guess my last question on the politics thing, and I swear I'm not going to drag you there, what about just advice? What advice would you have for this Israeli government other than not talking beyond what they need to talk so that it doesn't hurt hostages for no reason except for their own? I don't know what appeals to their base. Is there any other policy advice, advice on hostages in the future if this ever happens again? Any advice you have for the government on this? Very, very painful and, you know, complicated.
- [36:04]
B
Question, but practical advice, I could say that, that you have to, to give information that, that the other side prisoners are well treated and you never hurt them and things like that. It's something that will affect directly on your hostages and not give them harder times. It's hell enough just like that to be 50 meters underground and all this hygienic condition. That was awful. So we really, really tried to avoid from their rage and were furious about some things they read in the Israeli media that affect us, you know, immediately. You know, humiliations and violence and all this and especially food.
- [37:17]
A
Do you think the protests, there's been a big debate among Israeli politicians or the protests are making it harder to get you out by raising the cost that Hamas demands for you or helping get you out? What is your take on the protesters are honest, authentic?
- [37:32]
B
Definitely. The protest helped us a lot.
- [37:37]
A
Explain.
- [37:38]
B
Well, first of all, I think in the Israeli society it was very, very important that the Israeli not going to sit just calm like that at home when there's 250 hostages that suffers in Gaza. And I'm really, really proud of every Israeli that been, you know, every week in these protests and these protests more than it bothered the government, the Israeli government, it gave loads of support to their hostage families that they needed support that nobody forget their lovers. And for us Even we've been 50 meters underground just to hear the Hamas terrorists just finished watching the news and coming to us and says there's dozens of thousands outside in Tel Aviv on the roads and things like that and protest for you. That gave us a lot of faith that we one day, one day will be released.
- [39:00]
A
You are in the car on being released about 200 days ago in February. Oad bin Ami is in the Red Cross vehicle with you, you're safe. You're sobbing. The Red Cross official, I think a woman from New Zealand, you describe her.
- [39:18]
B
Felicity, yes, Felicity.
- [39:20]
A
She turns to you. Gazans, ordinary Gazans again. Now, I don't know if that particular case is ordinary Gazans in the sense that they're invited to this very carefully stage managed Hamas release ceremony. But ordinary Gazans are pounding on the door of the car. She turns to you and she says, you're safe. They can't get in the car's armor. You're safe now. And you are sobbing in gratitude that you're getting out. And Oad Ben Ami is absolutely furious and he says, where were you? And you've, since then you've spoken to the un, you've had interactions with the international community. Are you angry? He was angry. Has the Red Cross and all of these international ecosystem of organizations, do you think the world. We talked a lot about Israel, about the Israeli government, about protests, but what about the larger world? Do you think the world failed you and the hostages?
- [40:15]
B
Definitely. All these organizations, I don't blame them and I don't accuse anyone in my situation, not the UN and not the world and not the Israeli government, but they have responsibility. It's something different. But then blame. So each one of them take a responsibility about the hostage situation and Red Cross definitely. And UN definitely. So why they, you know, why they exist and why if they don't have any influence about situation like that. And, and before that you asked me about the Israeli government, if I blame them and angry about that. So I'm not angry about anything because it doesn't help me to be angry. But definitely their responsibility, you know, their responsibility for October 7th and they're responsible for all this loss of life of people and memes and the other 250 hostages being dragged to the to towards the Gaza Strip. Someone needs to be responsible for something.
- [41:40]
A
I think the most powerful part of the book is, is what you called hope as a muscle. You don't shy away from describing the very harsh reality, including fighting amongst the hostages themselves over food. I mean, just the degradation. You describe the starvation, the humiliation. And you also then begin to describe how you fought back against the psychological degradation in addition to the physical suffering. You and the hostages decide not to take extra food until it's offered to everyone. You have rituals to get you through the day. One completely ridiculous. Absolutely. Out of the weird ritual which suddenly becomes, which is to say something good that happened to you at the end of every day. 50 meters underground in a Hamas tunnel. Tell us about that. What is this hope as a muscle that you have to exercise?
- [42:41]
B
Well, you don't have much. You are under, you know, 50 meters underground. You don't have much. Anything is taken from you. Your freedom, your freedom to go to the bathroom without permission, to eat, to drink when you want what you want. Anything is taken from you. All this freedom. So you understand you don't have material things with you. And something that you need there is to get stronger with your spirit and your faith. And that can give you something that add to your survival. So that's what I've tried to do with the guys that were very, very young and very frightened about their lives. And for me to cry on this situation is not an option. I always try to find other solutions to make myself, you know, in a better condition. And I try to force them to say something good. And that day that happened to us, when you do that, it seems that not all everything is dark and awful.
- [44:03]
A
And what kind of things did they say? What could be a thing that you say is good?
- [44:10]
B
You know, it was once a week, once in two weeks we got tea, hot tea. And if it was with cinnamon or with the sugar, it was a very good thing even then to get a tea. It's a great thing in the day. Someone that used to humiliate you every day and threaten your life every day. It just went for two or three days from the tunnel outside. So he wasn't with us. So it was a great day for us. It's one of these things, you know, if you got showered in the same day or changing clothes or they gave you extra pillow or something like that, anything like that could be a very, very good day for us. And that was, and I'm telling you, after two or three weeks of, of this, you know, practicing and do it every day. And I said in the beginning, I forced them to say that each one of them start to find four or five things a day.
- [45:21]
A
Four or five things a day to be grateful for in that situation and taking care of them. It really strikes from reading that that's what got you through it. In other words, that was your good thing. Is that reading correctly what was happening there?
- [45:36]
B
It was a very good thing for me. It was, you know, everybody think that how much I helped them, all these things helped me to find meaning in this captivity. And I understood that everything we're doing together as one unit, it's very important for us. As you said, as you mentioned, they tried to bribe us with food in the middle of the Night that will say some sentences from the Quran. And we refused. Even we've been very, very, very hungry. We refused to get food just for ourselves, not if it wasn't for everybody else. We tried to show them that we are one unit, that we are. You cannot divide us. It was very important. And some of them react to this and said, wow, great. It's amazing that you are together. It's amazing you refuse to take food when I am not giving to the other one. This is the things that hold our spirit.
- [46:54]
A
Thank you for taking this time. My very last question. You have been, since your release, writing this book, touring Jewish communities all over the world, speaking out as much as you can. Part of it, and you're explicit about this, is to get Alon oil out. And I want you to tell us about Alon, who is still in. And hopefully, you know, with God's help, in a week or two or three, we'll meet him. But tell us about Alon and tell us about your larger message that you're carrying with you in all this. You know, since February.
- [47:36]
B
1St of all, about Alon is great kid. I met him, I think after an hour understood that how much we have in common kids with that, you know, that raised with the great values everybody sees, you know, aware now about his mother and father and see what amazing family they are. Very innocent, very naive guy. And you cannot not love him. You know, it's just. It's very obvious that he's very lovable guy. And we become really, really good friends there. And we've been for each other all these 14 months in the tunnels. And to leave him was one of my hardest moments in captivity. And I wish I can meet him really, really soon. I'm really waiting for him. And after we'll be with his family. I'm sure we'll find the time to be together. I'm sure he survived. He has all the tools to survive. This hell we've seen, I think was a month ago his video. And I'm really happy that he's still alive and I'm sure we will see him again.
- [49:11]
A
He's all of 24 years old. He's this extraordinary pianist and musician.
- [49:17]
B
Very talented pianist. Amazing.
- [49:19]
A
And as you. As you said, he has a wound in one eye that we don't know its condition. He's one of the living hostages that hopefully this deal will get out. You know what? Let me just add to that. Tell us about connecting to him in those tunnels, because the relationship you describe really is almost a fatherly one. It's actually a very deep one.
- [49:45]
B
Yeah. Because you know, when you need to survive, you need to do anything and, you know, to take care of yourself. And not being naive, it's really, really good that you want that everybody will, you know, will like you and all these things. But you have to understand that not each other, one from the hostages, we have the same values of yours. And it can be, you know, differently. And if you not notice, somebody can eat more than you and somebody can take your clothes or your mattress or your pillow. So I start to teach him and explain to him that he need to take care of himself. It's great if he wants that everybody else will be okay as well. But first of all, he need to take care of himself. And he had a great process about that. Yeah. So I was like his father, you know, I'm double his age. I have more experience than him. I'm not afraid to say what I have to say, even if it's not really nice to other people and start to learn that it's okay to say what you want and what you feel.
- [51:17]
A
You met a gentle soul when he went in.
- [51:19]
B
Very, very gentle soul. But it can become very tough. And these nightmares, that was often in the beginning at night was waking up shouting and all this become less at the end. And that was very good as well. As I said, I'm waiting for him, to hold him, to hug him, and to do all the things we promised to, to each other.
- [51:48]
A
Eli, what's your message to all the Jewish communities you visited? What's your message to anybody you want to send a message to?
- [51:56]
B
Well, I think very important message that it doesn't really matter all the disagreements we have to each other. We don't have to think the same and not the Israelis. And we have, you know, each one of us coming from other background and thinking differently. And it's fine. But we have more in common as Israelis, as Jewish. And it's the only way is to be united Israelis and the Jewish people around the world. And this is the only way we can defeat our enemies. We can live in our country.
- [52:35]
A
We're speaking on the two year anniversary. How are you marking this day?
- [52:41]
B
Well, I don't need any Memorial Day, a special Memorial day to remember my brother Yossi, my wife Lian, my daughters Noia. And I don't need. They live with me every moment with my life in the car, before I'm going to sleep, when I wake up, when I eat, the places I go remind me them. But there will be and there will be all my life there, but there will be alongside of my life and not instead of my life. And I'm quite sure I'm going to rebuild my life.
- [53:15]
A
Elishe Sharabi, thank you so much. Thank you, Sam.