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- [00:04]
A
Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode five of Ask Aviv. Anything. A lot of you have been asking me about hostages. About what? The. The deep and profound and complex questions that Israelis face. The disagreements, the pain, the suffering, the trauma, the strength, the resilience, the whole thing. We're going to dive into that today with a friend of ours, friend of my wife, Shakid Haran, who unfortunately. Hi, Shakid. Has become one of the great experts and activists on this issue because seven members of her family were taken hostage on October 7. Tal Shoham came out two weeks ago. He was the last member of the family still inside Gaza. And we're going to have a conversation. Shaked. Thank you for being with me.
- [01:00]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [01:03]
A
The hostages are back in the news. Trump's envoy is meeting to get out maybe 10 hostages for a 60 day ceasefire in Doha with Hamas representatives. We often see hostage families on tv. We see them at rallies. I think one of the extraordinary things when people talk about hostages around the world now, though, and the thing that people miss is that hostages are ordinary people, utterly ordinary people. What decided whether you got attacked, taken hostage, killed, your house was burned down in Be', Eri, for example, where your family is from, what made that decision was basically how close you were to the fence on the Gaza side of the kibbutz. And so it was the luck of the draw. It was just being in an environment where the IDF had failed to be there, to protect, to show up on time, and ordinary people got swept up into this. I want to start with the big, amazing compliment that I have been wanting, that we've been sharing with the world about your family. You said that Tal is one of the. Is the kind of person who can handle captivity. You were seven months pregnant on October 7th. And I remember Rachel was literally just worried for the pregnancy. But then you said something that we thought was amazing and beautiful and completely ridiculous, which is that your mother and sister, who were in Gaza in the hands of Hamas, together with your niece and nephew, 4 years old and 8 years old, that they would be there when you gave birth. And you did, correct me if I'm wrong, hold the baby till week 44, something like that.
- [03:03]
B
No, week 42.
- [03:05]
A
Week 42. But they were there when you gave birth. And so I want to start with this. Maybe it's because you're all the children of Avshal. Maybe that's what it is. Why are you so strong? Why are you so resilient? Why are you so confident? Why have you smiled more than the people who Smile around you. I was at your father's funeral. Icon of the kibbutz, Pillar of the kibbutz who ran the famous printing press of Kibbutz Berish. And I saw so many strong people holding each other up. Ordinary people. Went through October 7th. It's a feeling I've had about your family for 17 months. What's the secret of your strength? Where does that come from?
- [03:55]
B
I don't know if I can answer the question, you know, like, logically. I think we are for sure the children of our parents, both of them, my mother and my father, who always taught us to act, to act in the way that we think is the best way to proceed, facing forward. I think maybe this is the main thing that was with me the whole time, is that we don't have enough time or enough resources to look back. We have to look forward and then we have to do the best that we can with what we have. And you know, it was in the beginning it was almost impossible because there was so much we didn't know. So even the simple thing of understanding where we are located, where my family is, what we need to be to do, was very, very hard. The first days we had no idea where our family is and we started acting. Me and my brother that lives in Kibbutz Berry was fortunately not in the kibbutz that weekend. He was with his partner in a festival in the south of Israel. And so they came up to our house in Beer Sheva on Sunday and we just gathered here, people from, you know, friends of the family and people from civil intelligence and everyone. And we just started doing everything we can to, first of all to understand where our family is, but mentally and spiritually, or. I don't know how to say it, what we felt inside is that we have the responsibility to hold the best scenario in our head. And something my mother in law told me on Sunday, when I had a very, very hard moment where I was collapsing and I just didn't understand that it's real, I wanted to wake up. And then she told me, you know, it's. Most people think that when they don't know it's bad, it's kind of a pessimistic approach, that it's more realistic to be pessimistic, you know, like if I don't know where my family is, then it's probably bad. And then you feel very realistic, very in touch with the reality, you know. And she told me it's not true if you don't know. There is also always the option that it's good. And you have the responsibility to hold this option in your mind and to give this option strength and to act as if your family is still, it's still possible to save your family. And so this went with us the whole way, that we have something to fight for, that we have something to save. And I think it's a combination of this kind of spiritual strength with everything that my mother and father gave us since we were children, is that no one is going to do our job and we have to do it, and that we are no less than anyone else. And I really remember this. I went to, I'm saying things not in a chronological order, but maybe after, we can give a chronological breakdown of, of things, but after we were already told that my father was murdered and we were still not told, what about the rest of the family? And I went to the US to start campaigning for the, for the hostages, for my family to meet with senators and congressmen and, and department members. And I remember that I'm sitting in a room and I was by this time, eight months pregnant, maybe already nine months pregnant. Actually, it was the end of November and I was sitting in the Congress and I was with a suit and a huge belly and I was looking around me at the Senate member, the congressman. And I had my father in my mind that he would always tell us. It's only people, no matter who you meet, where you meet them and how fancy they look, it's a person. They have a father, they have a mother. They are probably frustrated with their wife or with their children or with their bank account. They are people. You look them in the eyes and you get them. How do you say it in English? You get them with you on your mission. Like you, you, you make them partners. You don't look at them at someone. You need to, I don't know, you don't shout at them, you're not mad at them. You make them partners. And now when you have them with you, you can go on, you can go forward. And I really remember sitting in the room and telling myself, and I'm sitting in front of this very high up congressman and in my head I say, he's a person. I look him in the eyes and I ask him about his children and I tell them, tell him about my niece and my nephew and I ask him to be our partner, not just someone who listens to our story and, you know, sheds a few tears. Because I don't need empathy. I need actions. I need to think. I need you to think what you can do with your powers, because I don't know what your powers are. And I really remember having that in my mind the whole time and trying not to be focused about myself. What am I doing here? How am I doing it? Am I good enough? Am I not good enough? And just seeing my end goal is to have as many partners in this journey as I can. And so that was my father and I feel like my mother was also. My mother was a very high profile international entrepreneur. Maybe I would say she has a NGO in Africa for being like a bridge between the very satisfied world and the hungry world in the Seeds,
- [10:13]
A
a social startup that sells, that does testing on seeds and basically upgrades.
- [10:22]
B
So it's a social startup that its mission is to give the hungry world in Africa the same resources and the same techniques as the very satisfied world in Europe. And they had many, many, they succeeded very well. I can give you, after the numbers, but she did a very, very big thing and it was only by her passion and her knowledge and the confidence she had to go on with her ideas. And I feel like that was always also with me that sometimes you just have to, you have to do what you think is right and not wait for people to tell you, come on, you're okay, you're doing good, you're doing good. You just do, just do. And you believe in your strategy and your belief. You believe in your abilities and it works. And I feel like these two things were very crucial and still are in our, in our path forward and in all the advocacy we did and all the campaigning we did. So I don't know, I answered the very long answer, but I think those were the main things that are giving us strength.
- [11:38]
A
I'm going to take a quick break to thank our sponsor and I don't feel like it's too much of a break because we have a sponsor who asked to remember someone who fell on October 7th. And so I would like to thank Joe and Shira Lieberman for sponsoring this episode and for giving us an opportunity to remember Captain Eden Nimri, commander in the Artillery Corps drone unit who was killed on October 7 while fighting the Hamas terrorists in the Nahal Oz outpost. Edin and the all female team that had been assigned to the base just three days before the the attack, ran with her team to the bomb shelter. When the sirens began, they thought it would be a, a rocket attack. When they realized it was an invasion, Eden stood her ground. She was in pajamas. She was at one of the two entrances to the shelter, which was a concrete structure. That doesn't fully close. She fought, stood her ground, and fought to the death. She died that day, but 11 of her soldiers managed to run for safety from the second entrance while she stood her ground. The reason we chose her today was that it is Purim. And her family said after her death that her favorite holiday was Purim, which begins this week on Friday. She's survived by her parents, Sharon and Michael, and her siblings Hadar and Noga, and she was buried on October 13 in Modi'. In. She was also represented Israel at the 2018 European Junior Open Water Swimming Championships. So she was a champion swimmer, a photographer. She took part in theater in high school, chess, jazz, ballet. One of the busiest people I've ever read about. She was the best of us. Shake it. Let's start at the beginning. Let's go back to that day. People should know. You know, we talked a little bit before you talked to Rachel, my wife, before we asked permission. It feels strange to have this conversation. And then I talk to you and I talk to hostage families, and I discover it's not strange. It's strange. If you're sitting on the outside and these things are abstractions. It didn't happen to my family. I know people it happened to. It's certainly closer to me than people overseas reading about it in the press. But. But it still didn't happen to my family. But then when I meet people who it happened to, they're. They're in it. They're. It's right there in front of them. And it's. In a. In a strange sense, it's not. It's not dramatic, it's enormous, it's traumatic. It's. But. But the. The drama of it is not. Is not there. So let's. Let's get into it. On October 7, you, none, all of us didn't have any idea what was going on for hours and hours and hours. But you, unlike me, knew that it was happening right next to where your family lived. Can you walk us through the timeline? When did you even find out that your father was killed? When did you find out who was taken hostage, who wasn't? And you already said something about those first days, those first confusing days. What was that? What did it look like?
- [15:00]
B
So for us, me and my husband and children, we live in beersheva. It's about 30 minutes east from Berry. And my parents lived in Berry. And on that Saturday, on Friday, my sister and her husband, Adiental, and their children came to visit my parents. So on Friday, we were all talking and I Even thought to jump over with my children. But then I was too tired and I said, never mind, we're going to have a more easy weekend here in Beersheba. And Saturday morning we Woke up around 6 in the morning from sirens here in Beersheba and we ran up. We don't have a shelter in this house, so we, we ran up to our neighbors and we sat all together in their safe room for hours. So for hours I wasn't even, I didn't even have in my mind what's going on. And this neighborhood is religious and we keep Shabbat also. So in the hours in the safe room, I wasn't with my phone and I had no idea what's going on. And I did have in my mind that usually be, usually if the sirens reach the big cities, Be', er, Sheva, Ashkelon, Ashdod, they're over Beri. So what would usually happen is that there would be, I don't know how to say it in English, but Qasamim, the more simple missiles, Qasam, Rockets of Hamas. Yeah, rockets of Hamas that would be shot on Berri and then gradually more heavy armory would be shot at Beersheva, Ashkelon and whatever. And here it was so intense that I thought for sure in Berri, you know, they passed Berri like it's not a problem there. And then only in the evening, after the sirens here were more calmed down, we actually started to understand what's going on in the beginning. In the afternoon we started hearing, okay, there's something. There was a party, like a nature party, and something happened there, but we didn't hear anything about Berri. And then only in the evening, I was trying to call my father and the phone line was dead. And I was trying to call my mother and the phone line was dead and my aunt and my sister, no one answered. And then finally I spoke to Tal's father, to Gilad. Tal is my brother in law and Gilad his father. And then he told me what happened, what we knew at that point. He said the kibbutz had been conquered by hundreds of terrorists. And we have no signal from our family. We don't know where they are, if they are alive, if not. And I was sure he was exaggerating. I was sure. And I thought to myself, okay, okay, he's probably exaggerating. Nothing like this could happen. There's army bases all around Bari. We've always been told how we are close to Gaza, but we are the safest place because their army is all around Us. And this is something, since I'm a child, that we were told and that when something happens, Bari is the safest place to be. And you know, things like that. And I, I said it's impossible. And then I talked to my father, my brother, and he collapsed in the phone and he told me the same thing. And then I went inside my phone, there is like a group for kibbutz, for the people from the kibbutz. It's like WhatsApp but a different app. And I started going over the messages and everything went black because I could not believe what I'm reading. It was from Saturday morning until the evening. And people were writing their, you know, that the terrorists are outside their house, that they see the terrorists shooting their neighbors. And now they're at my door and then silence. And then my child is alone in the playground and how do I get to them? And someone please come rescue us. And there's the baby here, and I see my mother, they're burning their house. You know, so many messages and people crying for help and people saying, I hear voices outside. I don't know if it's the soldiers, if it's the terrorists. And at that point there were no soldiers, but some of the terrorists came in IDF uniforms. And so there were people like, at least from what we know, my aunt and uncle that opened, that thought it was the military and then they were murdered. So, so I start seeing all this and nothing from my family. And my brother is writing in that, in that group that please, someone go to the house and see where the family is. And there are children there. And there were eight people in my parents house, but we don't get any information. So Saturday night we are here, I'm here with my husband and the children thankfully are already asleep. And we try to make sense of it all and to think what we can do. And then at some point they start evacuating people from Berry with buses. And we say, okay, okay, it's only a matter of time until we get the message from my parents, from my sister. Wow, this was horrific. But thank God we are on the way out and no message comes. And Lee, who is my brother in law, sister, she went to Netivot to stand where the buses are coming out of Berry. And bus after bus she goes through with the people and she doesn't see our family. And only Sunday, I think it was 2, 3pm they told us they finished evacuating everyone. So whoever was not evacuated, no one knows where they are or if they're alive or not alive. At this point we understand that my grandmother, my father's mother Ruth was rescued from Beri. And one of our neighbors here in Beer Sheva goes to Netivot to bring her to us. And we think maybe she can shed some light. But when she arrives we understand that she's more confused than us, that she does not realize the capacity of the. Of. Of what happened. And my brother joins us here also in Beersheva. And then we started kind of opening a war room here in our house and just inviting whoever can help us to come and to do whatever they can. So it was civil intelligence and phone companies that were helping us locate the phones of the families. And at some point people who were physically in Berry, soldiers and civilians went to to do whatever they can. Are starting to give us information that our parents house is completely empty. And we receive a video showing that the house is completely burned down. Everything.
- [22:14]
A
Video, no video of the Israelis video.
- [22:18]
B
This is right now, I think Sunday afternoon we receive a video that someone took, I don't know if it was a soldier or a civilian of my parents house. And it's showing that the house is completely burned down. Only the safe room is standing and the window of the safe room is open. And we don't see their blood or signs of struggle, I would say. And then we say, and so we receive this and we also talk to a friend of my father, a very, very good friend of his that during Saturday called my father over a hundred times and at some point someone answered and said in Arabic hostage, hostage, Gilad Shalit, Gaza. And we said okay, it sounds like my father has been taken hostage. And then we received the video of the house and we say okay, maybe this is the scenario we're facing, that the whole family was taken hostage and it's 11 people. It's my parents, my sister and my brother and their two children, my aunt and cousin that are from my father's side that were. All of these people were in my parents house. And my parents neighbors are my aunt, my mother's sister and her husband. And they have a caretaker because my uncle was handicapped. So it's 11 people that we are trying to understand where they are. And at some point we say okay, we believe that all of them were taken hostage. But we still try to collect information and to understand what happens. And the amount of atrocities in Barrie was so big that for I think more than a week no one could tell us how many people were hurt, how many people were killed. We had no idea of, you know, how Big this event was. So at Sunday, we kind of have this understanding that all of them were taken hostage, and we try to collect more and more information. And on Tuesday, and we live here, the house in Beersheva, I was actually convinced that it was going to be like an intifada in Israel, because I said, okay, all of the men are recruited. There's so much chaos here. This is what's going to happen. And I was sure it was going to happen. And I didn't want to be in Beer Sheva. So we went to a friend's house in Tel Aviv, and there we could also stay with my brother and his partner and more family members that came and tried to help. And on Tuesday, and at some point, we think we recognize Tal in a video of Hamas, his brother, his brother, and also my cousin and a few more friends of ours are going through Hamas videos to try to find the family on telegram and wherever they were. And at some point, his brother says that he thinks he recognizes his sweatshirt from the back and that it looks like he was taken inside the car to Gaza. And we. So. So we kind of tried to put the pieces together. On Tuesday, I think it was Tuesday, a friend of my brother Alon, who managed to escape with his small girl and his wife was taken hostage, comes. He managed to escape, and he comes to meet my brother, and he tells him that actually they were. The three of them, Alon, Yerden and their little girl were put in a car, and Tal was handcuffed and put in the trunk of the car. And they managed to escape, but the wife and Tal were taken into Gaza. So at that point, Tal was the only one we knew for a fact that he's inside Gaza. And we also knew that he was not physically harmed, that when he was put in the trunk, it was not, at least not something very, very dramatic, because there were things, but nothing was very dramatic. And we said, okay, he was taken alive. And that was for us, very, very, you know, at least we had something concrete to hold onto. And then we started immediately working in many different channels. So most of the family was there with German citizenships. So we already, on Tuesday, we had a meeting with the Chancellor of Germany.
- [26:58]
A
Why does most of the family have German citizenship? What's the connection?
- [27:01]
B
Because my grandfather, my mother's father, was a Holocaust survivor from Germany. He was born in Stuttgart, and he fled with his family to Israel when he was about nine from the Nazi regime. And when we were children, at some point, our parents did the. Did for us the German citizenship Through his citizenship. So we had that. And Tal had Austrian citizenship. And my father, originally from Romania, didn't have citizenship, but we started working with Romania to give him the citizenship because his mother was from there. And we understood very, very, very early on that it would be very, very good for our family to have another citizenship, to have another country working on their release. Because we saw that in Israel, the chaos was so big, and no one in Israel could tell us where we are at. Is this going to be a whole war in the north, in the south, in the east, in the west, or is it just going to be in Gaza? At this point? The first week, no one reached out to us. Not the idea.
- [28:26]
A
I want to focus in on these two points before we move on. One, in general, in Kibbutz Be', Ri, there are a great many people, a great many Yekim, a great many German Jews. Right. And Holocaust survivors. It's part of the demographics that actually founded the kibbutz among your grandparents, or your grandparents are among the founders of the kibbutz. Is that right? Is that part of the.
- [28:49]
B
I mean, listen, if you look, my grandparents are very. My. My grandmother was actually born in Israel and so was her mother. So there we have a lot along descending line in Israel. But my father was. My grandfather was born in Germany. And a lot of European Jews that came from. That fled actually the Holocaust went into youth groups, and these youth groups are the one that founded the kibbutz. So BERI has a whole. I don't know how you say it
- [29:21]
A
in English, a nucleus or the founding group.
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B
Yeah, the founding group. A lot of them are Ashkenazi Jews. Actually, in Beri, it was very unique that the next. The next group that came to Berry was actually from. From Babylon. From.
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A
From Iraq.
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B
From Iraq.
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A
And that would be in the 50s. The early 50s, yeah.
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B
So. So actually in Beri, it's a mix, but. But there are a lot of German Jews, a lot of European Jews, a lot of Holocaust survivors.
- [29:52]
A
That's a story we heard a lot out of Berry. So I want to dig into the second. The last thing you said, which was you really felt out at sea, there was nobody taking care of you. There was nobody talking to you. There was nobody from the army, nobody from the government, no government ministries. This is something that I experienced as a journalist trying to get information. It was unbelievable chaos. Not for Those famous first 12 hours where everybody's asking, where's the army? For the next two weeks, it was almost impossible to find someone who knew anything. But I wasn't Desperately looking for family members. Can you tell us about that? In other words, who did you reach out to? Who failed you? What was that all about?
- [30:37]
B
I will say that there's two levels to this answer because the first level is our emotional and our emotional placement where we were in the first days that we really wanted people to reach out to us from the idf, from the government, from anyone actually official that could shed some light on what's going on. But the more deep level was the understanding that it's an unprecedented attack on civilians in Israel and that we are hoping that all the different officials, if it's the army, if it's the government, whoever, states, intelligence forces, that they are working on saving the people and not on making us feel better. So this was always in our head also that, you know, we held this idea that we are not the important ones at the moment. We don't need, we don't need people to hug us. We need them to do everything they can to save the family. So regarding the idea for the officials, we kind of understood that it's going to take a very long while until they have the resources to come to us. And we went to them. So we did. There's not, I can't talk about everything that we did, but we just started working with people that are former IDF people and know a lot of people from the inside and just using every connections we had to get information directly to us. And we succeeded in, in, we succeeded in getting a picture that was, I would say, 80% accurate about my family and about what happened to them. This was the first week, okay, I'm talking about the first week. And during this first week we actually, I don't remember, I think maybe it was Thursday was the first time that a representative of the army came to meet us and she sat with us and she was actually, they have a unit of people, of representatives that are in touch with the families. And she was from this unit and she came and she said, okay, I'm responsible for your family, so all the information will come to me and I will forward it to you. And she's sitting with us and she tells us all the eight people from my parents house are considered hostages and my aunt, my uncle and their caregiver are missing. And then we asked her, okay, based on what? Give us something. And then she hands us a folder with all the information we collected and gave to the army. So at that point, and I got really mad and I said, okay, you just wasted 45 minutes of our time or nothing. Because this is everything we already know. And I was very frustrated, and again, I was frustrated, but. But hopeful that whoever needs to be doing their job is doing their job. And it's just not getting to my end because no one has time to forward it to me. So that was kind of how we felt. And we didn't stop to analyze and think. We were just going on and we formed this group of people that we sat and tried to analyze the information and to collect all the data we had. And at the same time, since Tuesday, I was giving interviews that, you know, because Rachel was the one helping me with this in foreign media. So Germany and Austria and the US and England and, I don't remember, I think even India, we did an interview. So we were trying to raise the voice and to tell the world, this is happening. We need everything. We need it now. We need all the support, we need all the actions. And so we were working on the media channels and on the information, on collecting information and on meeting officials here in Israel and people that we thought could be of help. And then we went through the first weekend and on Tuesday, on Tuesday morning, we actually got the message about my. My Uncle Ev, that his body was identified in Bari. And then we said Tuesday morning, a
- [35:06]
A
week later, in other words, a week and a half later, ten days after.
- [35:10]
B
Okay. Yes, yes. And we already knew that. People in Berry started getting messages, and at least for me, I said okay. No one told us, so obviously the family is okay. And then they news about him came and we were devastated and we said okay, but he was very sick. Maybe he. We didn't. And we didn't get any information but the identification. So they didn't tell us where the body was found or in what state or what situation, just that the body was identified and it's. It's for sure him. And we started, you know, making up the story in our mind to say why this is what happened. But the rest of the family is still okay. The rest of the family is still okay. And then by that evening, I was coming back from a meeting with the Chancellor of Germany, and my husband was waiting for me outside the house. And when we enter, we see the officer that we met a week before, and she tells me that my father's body was identified. And I didn't believe it. That was a moment. But even now, I can't really go back to it because I felt like I'm just in a different universe. It can't be. My father was the strongest person I knew. He was strong. He was optimistic. He was very creative. We were sure that he got the family out of the situation and that he's already negotiating his release. This is what we thought in the beginning. And when the message came, it was devastating. It was really. And also no information, just the saying that his body was identified. It's certain, there's no way it's not him. But they cannot tell us anything about where he was found, what happened to him. This was such a bizarre situation because we couldn't even place it. We had no idea we. What happened. We said, okay, maybe, maybe we were wrong about everything. Maybe, you know, the whole family was, was murdered. We had no idea. And for me, that was really the, the only time that I felt that I might not have the strength to go on. But a few hours later, after I, I was crying and sitting with my brother and I took a breath and I said, okay, but there's more people to say, we can't give up, we don't have this option because this is unbelievable. But it's our life and it's on us. And I said, okay, I'm breathing, I'm eating, I have to be working. There's no other option. And so we started reanalyzing everything we knew and trying to make sense of it. And then that was Tuesday. On Thursday morning, we received the message that my aunt was also identified as murdered, that her body was also identified and at that point because she was a woman. And until that point we said, I told you, we were trying to rationalize why whatever we already knew happened, happened, but the other people are safe. And we said, okay, they are men. They are older men. Maybe they didn't want to kidnap older men. They took just the women and the children. And then the message about my aunt came and that was, I remember saying, it's the worst torture I could ever go through. So every day they would drop another message. And that's what I felt. I felt like I'm not going to be able to go through with this. That, you know, we have to keep on acting. But every time there is more devastating news and more devastating news and we are sitting shiva and my father and still having to go to interviews and meetings and you know, it was. And tell the people. I really remember that we are sitting in my father's shiva and people are coming to comfort us, but they are talking about the whole family and we are telling them, no, my mother is alive, my sister, the children, my brother in law, they are alive, don't come to mourn them. And people were coming to mourn the whole family. And me and my brother were so angry with these people who, you know, like this. Like this are taking the way all our. All our. All our actions and all our efforts to the ground, you know, because we are doing everything we can to remain optimistic about whoever is not already identified. And it was so hard. And also people were coming with their pessimistic views and with their. You know, you said before, and I feel it's very true, when it's your life, it's not dramatic. It's your life. This is my life at the moment. And people were coming, you know, and, like, putting on us so much weight of their. Of how they cannot handle the reality. And we were like, no, you can't do this, because it's our reality. We have to handle.
- [40:18]
A
Felt to the rest of us so enormous.
- [40:21]
B
Yeah. And it was so enormous. It was. We wake up to this. This is all we talk about. This is all we do. And then people from the outside are like, putting on us more weight, and they believe that it's the only thing they can do. But for us in the Shiva, it was really. At some points there were conversations that I stopped and I said, I'm sorry, I cannot do this. I'm still fighting for the lives of my family.
- [40:46]
A
Shakel I have to confess, 38 children were killed on October 7th. And when I thought of Yahel and Nave, I was one of those people. I didn't come to you and talk about it with you. So I'll take that little bit of consolation for myself. But why were you optimistic? Because what choice did you have? Or because it sounds like you really were living off of the tiniest shreds of information, and the army knew less than you knew.
- [41:23]
B
We thought. And it's what I told you in the beginning, that as long as we don't know, it's the best possible scenario through all this time. And we for one minute, did not want to let pessimistic thoughts enter. We believe. Me and my husband and my brother and the whole family were very spiritual. And we really believe that you give strength to certain realities. And I don't know how to explain it, but I really believe that it's our responsibility to hold the best possible scenario for them, to not give up on them. As long as we're not sure for 100% that they are dead, as long as this is not the reality, then they are alive. They're not only alive, they are well. This was what we had in mind. They are together. They are well. And we pictured it every evening. There is a prayer that you probably know. I don't know how to translate to English, but it's called Our Brothers all the House of Israel. So this is. We sang it every evening. We sat together, the family, and we sang this prayer. And we said, they will come back for sure, for sure. There is no other possibility. And then, you know, we got the message about my uncle and then about my father, and then about my aunt. And we worked outside and inside to convince ourselves that this is. That it will end in this. And then a few days after the message about my aunt was the first time we got confirmation from the Israeli intelligence that the rest of the family had been taken hostage. So we knew about Tal from the first week. And this was actually the first time we got information about the six. My mother, my sister, my aunt and the three children. They are all held hostage and alive. And that was, for us, a beginning of a new chapter, because finally we understood that at least we know. At least we can now understand the picture. So my father, my aunt and uncle were murdered. The other seven have been taken hostage. And now we are working with this information. And this is also the first time that I felt I could go on the mission abroad, because before that, I was completely scared that I would come back to another visit of the officer. So every time I left the house, since the message about my father, every time I left the house, I was sure that there would be an officer when I come back. And I could never know because I knew that my husband will never tell me in the phone. So I would text him and try to understand from the nuances of his messages if something happened, or I would call him to hear his voice, to understand. Or when I would drive close to the house, I would try to see if he's outside or inside. I remember one time I went to an interview, still in my father's teshiva. But after we already knew about my aunt, and I went to an interview in Jerusalem. And I came back and I was like this. I was shaking because I was sitting in the car and I couldn't breathe. I said, okay, what if I come back? And then they tell me about my mother or my sister, and I come back, and then I see in the front of the house two friends of my brother smoking. And I said, okay. They would never be smoking outside the house if there's an officer inside. And so even these few seconds between walking from the car to the house gave me the relief. But my life was like this, like you know, like a bomb waiting to explode. And only after we got the confirmation that the rest of the family is held hostage was the first time that I felt that I could start doing more long term efforts, you know, and not just immediate reactions to things. And then I went to the US and on a mission and it was a whole week. I missed my father's 30. 30 day. I don't know how you say it,
- [45:34]
A
but when you go see in the end of the 30 day mourning period.
- [45:38]
B
Yeah, I was actually supposed to come back in time for it, but then we had a meeting with the Congressman and that after I talked and told the story and I asked him to be more active and to do things. And after, after that meeting, they, they elongated the mission so we can meet more congressmen because they saw it's very effective and it's really changing actions of people. And then I said, okay, it's more important than to go to the, to the grave. And this was always in our mind, you know, like we are working for the people who are alive before we can be, you know, free to deal with the people who were murdered. And this was the whole time through until very recently when Tal was released. Um, so. So I was on a mission there and when I, I remember that even though we knew they're held hostage, we didn't know anything. So I was with my cousin, she flew with me. And I also had to lie about my pregnancy because I didn't have insurance to go. I was week 34 of the pregnancy and.
- [46:46]
A
Right. You're not allowed to fly at some
- [46:48]
B
point with what you're allowed to fly, but you don't have insurance.
- [46:52]
A
Okay.
- [46:53]
B
It's different companies and we did there some tricks so they will give me the insurance. And I remember that I'm sitting in the airport before we are going on the flight back to Israel and I open the news and I see the face of the mother of one of my closest friends from Beri who was held hostage. And the headline is that her body was found under the hospital in Gaza. Judith Vice, Judith Weiss. And I see that and then I lose my breath and I look at my cousin and I ask her, do you know something about my mother? Are you hiding information from me? Are you not telling me something? And I became paranoid that they won't tell me because I'm in the US and they don't want to stress me out because I'm pregnant and they are keeping information for me. So this is kind of my reality is that any moment I could receive the worst possible news about my family. And it was. And. And then she. She swore to me and she told me, I don't know anything. And I told her, ah, they're not telling you because you're with me. And then she said, okay, I will call my husband. I'm telling you, he's a really bad liar. If he knows anything, he will tell me. And that was. Oh, he said, okay, now I trust it. But our life was crazy. It's so hard to explain how it was, but it was chaotic and crazy.
- [48:23]
A
I remember that everybody was trying to protect you. And I'm learning today that you experienced that as one of the great difficulties of that time, because what you really needed was clarity and information.
- [48:37]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And also I felt very, very strong. I. I was very confident in my ability to hold everything together. I was sure that I'm not going to break. And I felt that my pregnancy was very safe. I had no question that I'm going to give birth and that my mother and sister are going to be with me and that this baby is going to be the happiest and most beautiful baby. I really saw this in my mind. I had this vision and I shared it with everyone I met that this is how it's going to happen. And what was very hard for me is that people were making assumptions about me and about my strength and my abilities. And again, you know, for me, this is my life at the moment. This is my life. How do you say? I'm looking straight at it and I'm not scared to leave it. And I. Actually, this was the time in my life that I had the least fear in the world. The least fear in the world. I felt that nothing, as long as I'm in this mission, nothing can harm me. Because I.
- [49:46]
A
Because there's no time for fear. Because too much depends on it.
- [49:49]
B
Yeah, because I.
- [49:50]
A
What was the source of that?
- [49:52]
B
Yeah, I wasn't the focus. I felt like I am not the focus. I am like in the sense, a vessel for my family that is in Gaza. And because I'm not the focus, nothing can happen to me. That was kind of how I felt. I don't know how to explain it, but it was a very strong feeling that I'm their voice here and that this is my responsibility.
- [50:12]
A
Then, in November, 50 days in roughly, we hear news of this agreement and six of the seven hostages from your family come out. Take us to that day.
- [50:24]
B
So I would just say that prior to that day, when I come back from the us, it's when my Brother started the walk from. I don't remember where they started, but they walked all the way up to Jerusalem, and there were thousands of people with them in this rally, in this walk. And after this weekend was the time that they finally got to an agreement and there were discussions in Israel if to sign it or not to sign it. And, you know, very, very, very intense few days. And then finally, I think it was Tuesday that they signed the agreement. And Thursday was the first Pima, the first. The first release. They were talking about women and children, mothers and children. So we were not. We didn't know if my mother is included in the people who are going to be released because she wasn't very old. She was 67, and she wasn't a mother to young children. And we were very worried that if it's going to include her or not. And the first instance, there were, before the agreement, there were the very two, the two old women from near Oz that were also released. And the first instance, it was from Niroz, it was actually a friend of mine that went to high school with me and her two children and a few more women. And then we were waiting for the phone call to understand if our family is on the list. And then the officer called us and she said, it's not your family. And we, you know, we tried to keep. To keep together, to not lose hope. That was Thursday. And then Friday, she told us, the officer, that she's going to call us around 4 or 5pm to tell us if it's. If it's our family. And we were waiting. We were all together in Herzeliya with my brother and his partner, and also with my cousin and her husband. And we were waiting by the phone, no phone call. And it's 5pm, 6pm, 7pm, 8pm, nothing is happening. And then around, I think around 9 or 10, the officer called and she said, it's taking time, we're not sure, but hopefully in the next few hours we get the names. And then I think it was around 11:30 that she calls my brother and she tells them they are on the list, but in Hebrew, it was only female hell Barashima. And so the first moment was amazing, unbelievable. We were jumping up and down, and my children that were at that point, three and a half and one and a half were with us. They were part of the thing. And then after a few seconds, I tell him, why only the women? Why only the women? And where is Tal? Why is Tal not coming out? And in my head, I know, because everyone was talking Only about women and children. But in my heart, I can't believe that we are not at the end of it. I can't believe that it's not the end of the road that he's going to be there. And until the release, I was praying for a miracle that they come out as a family, that they don't separate them and it didn't happen. And then she. So she tells us this, and she tells us it would be Saturday afternoon, something like this, and really Saturday, I think around six, we leave the house for the hospital and we start waiting there and we prepare the rooms and we are very excited. But at the same time we understand that we have no idea what they went through because the information we got was at no point did we understand what they went through in the safe room or at what conditions they were abducted. And we at that point already heard so many horrific stories about things that happened on that day. So we were holding this kind of anxiety about their situation. And also we had no idea what they know, if they know about my father, if my mother knows about my father, if she knows about her sister, about the house. Like, we had no idea what we are going to receive. So it was kind of mixed between completely excited and can't wait to hug them, to very big anxiety of how it's going to look like. And then, I don't know if you remember, but the second instance there was Hamas was saying they're going to blow up the deal and they're not going to do it and they're not going to release them. This was around 8pm, 10pm on Saturday. And we saw the headlines in the news and the officer was telling us they don't know how it's going to continue. And at that moment, for me, and I think for my brother as well, there was no other option. They are going to be released tonight and there is no other option. It's not going to break. And we went to a hotel near the hospital and we waited there. And finally around midnight, they were passed over to the Red Cross. And then we got a phone call from my mother and she said I was crying. And she told me, why are you crying? We're coming back. And I told her, yes, and I'm so happy. And then she told me, I'm sure that your father and Tal are okay. I'm sure that they are okay, and they will also be released. And then I was. I lost my breath and I couldn't say anything over the phone, but I understood that she has no idea what happened here? And we went back to the hospital and there were like social workers there and they were trying to, they offered us to be the ones breaking the news to my mother and my sister. And I said that never, you know, I will never let my mother sit in front of a stranger that will tell her that actually all her life is gone. Because she survived. But the house and all her belongings, completely burned. Nothing, nothing was left. My husband found a small diamond pin that she received from her grandmother and Hanukkiah. And that's it. Nothing from the house was left. Her sister was murdered, her husband was murdered, her brother in law was murdered, and 90 more than 90 of her closest friends. So just imagining telling her that completely broke me down. But I said, it's our responsibility, what can we do? We can't walk away from it. She can't sit in front of this person that doesn't even know her and get this news. And we were also told not to say it up front to give them a moment. And so that's what we did.
- [57:33]
A
So the first who was coaching you on how to talk to them when
- [57:36]
B
they're coming back, there was, there was a whole team in the hospital of social workers, doctors and psychologists. I will tell you honestly that at that point I couldn't, I didn't feel like they know anything, you know, like it felt so out of their league. So we got to the hospital and we met them. And the first meeting was amazing and so happy and the children were so alive and so full of life. And my sister and my mother, they looked so strong, really amazing. It was unbelievable. And then gradually we broke down the very harsh news. And actually my mother, she was amazing about her sister, she, she told us that she was, she kind of understood because they saw the house of her sister burning down when they were, when they were abducted to Gaza. And about my father, she was sure he was alive, but her first comment was that she told us, look at all of us sitting here. This is how he would have wanted the scenario to end. He actually didn't want to get into the safe room on that morning. He was standing outside the safe room holding a kitchen knife. And only after my brother in law convinced him for quite a while to come inside, only then he came inside. And this is what my mother told me the minute after I told her that he was murdered. She said, this was his choice, I don't even need to guess. He put his life completely on the side and all he wanted to know is that the family is safe and the family is safe. And at that point, Tal, we knew that he was still in Gaza, but we knew that he's alive. And so this was her first reaction. And it finally gave me strength. I could finally be. I don't know how to say it, but grieve with her for a little bit and have a mother to comfort me. Because until that point, I had no one to comfort me. And it was very. I really remember that I understood at that moment that I have a mother. And it was very.
- [59:48]
A
That's when it became real that she was out, that she was safe and
- [59:51]
B
that she was her, that she was strong and that she was held together and that she was here for us. And, you know, it's not something you can guess or assume that will be after everything she went through. And then we started a new chapter of our struggle over the mission to save Tal. And we had a very kind of organized working work method. So my mother used every bit of international connections and profile and network that she had. And 10 days after her release, she was already in the US with meetings and in Europe and in France and everywhere she went everywhere. And my sister started doing everything behind the scenes. She met everyone in Israel, outside of Israel. She went to Austria. Tal's father, Gilad, is the one with the Austrian citizenship, so he was working at that from almost day one. But when she came back, she and the children actually joined this effort. And they met everyone in Austria, from the Chancellor to really everyone. And they made very, very strong connections and commitments. My mother and sister received very clear guidance from Israel, from Shabak, not to be interviewed and not to show their faces in the media, because now we can maybe speak about it, maybe not, it's better not. But it was because the specific way they were held and its effect on Tal, so they were really ordered not to be in the media at all, or if they are in the media, not to give interviews, not to talk about their time in captivity. And so it was very. It was a unique situation. And that for that reason, my sister and mother completely stayed out of the media. And that was my. My job, my brother's job, Tal's brother's job. So we were more on the outer side of it. And they were doing all the inside lobby, like all the, the private meetings, the very discreet operations and stuff like that. And that's actually what we've been doing for the past year and a half, nonstop, nonstop, non, stop, non stop, meeting everyone who can meet us, talking to the biggest here in Israel, to the biggest people who are considered the people resisting the deal, politicians and officers and everyone, and studying from another aspect and another aspect. And so just nonstop non stop work. So we are completely still engaged in the campaign, in the mission, in the advocacy to release the hostages. So on that part, everything changed, but nothing changed in our motivation. The children, I mean, I can't even start to sum up what they went through. It's not something I feel I can do at the moment. I can say that their mother, my sister, and their grandmother, my mother, have done in captivity something amazing. Maybe the only thing I can think about is the video of the movie of Beautiful Life, it's called that the father gives the child kind of a feeling that he is still secure, even though everything is collapsing around him. So they managed to hold this for them, even in captivity, to work with their imagination and with their childish point of view and to kind of give them the hope that they are guarded and safe, even though everything is collapsing around them. And so they really kept their mental health. They came back children, completely children. Children who have been through hell, but children. And that was amazing to see. And my sister, in some sense, the time here in Israel was more difficult to protect them because they, first of all, they almost became public property. Their pictures were all over the media, their stories were all over the media. They lost completely their privacy. And she was really trying to protect them and kind of, kind of work a way where she still uses them to get the attention she needs for Tal's release. But she keeps them safe, she doesn't let anyone interview them, she kind of keeps the reality. They're going to school, they're going to kindergarten, they have the life the children need, but they're still taking an active part in the efforts to release their father. So it was always kind of holding these two things together. Crazy, crazy hard. It was crazy, crazy, really. I saw my sister, she was holding so much on her, but she managed and she did it. And I can tell you that now that Tali's back, they are a family, a functioning family. And they're together and they are happy and they have a long way to go to heal and to process everything they've been through. But they are a healthy, happy, functioning family. And it's amazing to think that it's possible after everything they went through.
- [65:31]
A
We're going forward potentially into an extension of the ceasefire, with more hostages coming out, potentially a return to war. The cabinet approved a. A call up. Not that there's going to be a call up, but the Cabinet allowed the army to now have a massive full scale reserve call up. The Trump administration wants a deal, especially to get out the people with American citizenship. It could go either way. Nobody really quite knows. Probably Hamas and the Israeli government and the American government don't really know quite where it's going to go. What do you hope happens? In other words, are you willing for the war to end completely? Are you hoping for that final deal? And what do you think happens after that final deal? What should happen in Gaza?
- [66:14]
B
I think we've reached a point that a lot of the army has a lot of succeeded in a lot of different areas in the north, in Gaza, with Iran. And now it's the time to do something that is not only force, that is more complicated than just army force. And I can tell you that when I look at the discourse in Israel, what I see is people that are afraid, they are scared and they are hurt and it's on both sides. And what really breaks me is that people are not doing the mental effort to rise above these things and to think together how this is solvable, saving the hostages and keeping the Israeli security and safety of the citizens. And I will give you an example. I think that people who are against the deal, if you listen to them and not just draw them as demons, what they are telling you is that they don't trust the Israeli public and the Israeli government to keep Israel safe the day after the deal. They just don't trust it. They say that what will happen is that we will get our people back and go back to the 6th of October, not only Hamas in Gaza, but also us here. The public here will go back to the 6th of October to minimize the threat and to just go on with our daily lives because the problem has been solved and they are afraid, they don't have trust in the army, in the government, that they will protect them. And because of this, they are not flexible enough to say let's bring the hostages back and then deal with Hamas because they don't trust that we will deal with Hamas. But instead of hearing this, we are just calling them out as, you know, crazy people, as demons. And we are not answering them in a smart way. And we were not telling them, let's make a commitment for a deep change here that will be able to destroy Hamas even after the hostages are back. And on the other side, there are people that don't trust that the government or the army is doing enough to bring the hostages. They don't see a threat. They really don't. A lot of people that I took to think the threat is over, we're not threatened anymore. So there is no, no problem in finishing this war as, as it is. You know, just taking our people out ceasefire and, and finishing it. And the more they are not afraid, the more these people are afraid. And it's just like a discourse between, between. How do you call it, Hershim?
- [69:06]
A
Between the deaf.
- [69:07]
B
Yeah, between the deaf. And that's what drives me crazy, because I don't think it's simple. I think it's very complicated. But I think it's solvable to hear one another and to discuss the situation and to understand who we are afraid of and how can we solve it. And in that sense, I don't think Hamas is the problem, obviously. Right. They are the big problem. But we have another problem is that here inside, we don't take control over what is in our possibility to change.
- [69:40]
A
Do you think as someone who, who is one of the families that paid the enormous price of the failures of this leadership, a leadership that is still in power. I mean, I'll just go directly to Netanyahu. Unlike every single other person in power on October 7, who is now gone. Right. With the exception of what, the head of the Shabbat, everyone else is gone. Netanyahu not only is not gone, he is the only one who hasn't taken responsibility publicly for what happened. And famously, Kibbutz Nir Oz, which suffered as much as be it was one of the three great massacres. And Nova of October 7 has invited Netanyahu for 17 months, and Netanyahu has refused to go. And so we have a leadership that is politicking its way through this period. And I would say, to your point, refusing to earn that trust. And so we have a people who are deeply distrustful. When I talk to religious Zionists who are, first of all, they are the single community in Israel that lost the most soldiers in this war and per capita, but I think also in real numbers, or maybe 40% of the soldiers who died were from religious Zionist communities and families, and they're maybe 13% of the population. So they have sacrificed tremendously in the war against Hamas. And that's where you find the most opposition to a deal. So we're talking about communities that have all really profoundly paid prices here. And both of them, just as you said, both of them talk about distrust, distrust of the future and distrust of leadership. Do you personally trust our leadership to be doing everything that they can to bring back all the hostages they can bring back?
- [71:25]
B
So not always. There were points that I Felt that I. I have trust in it, but not always. But I will say, and it's important for me to say, I don't think I have met one person who was cynical about the situation or that I felt was playing a political game. I did meet a lot of people with a completely different understanding of the reality than the way I understood it. So I met people between them, Netanyahu, who, in his eyes, and it was not recently, it was a lot of months back, we are facing immediate threat on Israel from five different areas. Not only who we border with, but also Iran. And everything we do in Gaza is not only in Gaza. It's a mere representative of how weak or strong we are. And in his perception, at that point in time, we. We cannot, you know, like, we cannot take any wrong turn. And I remember sitting in front of him and saying, okay, this is the way he perceives reality. Now, we can either discuss if this is the right way to perceive reality, or I can shout at him that he's a criminal. And I feel that the first option is much more effective than the second option. And I'm saying this while understanding that there's so much that I have criticism about, but it's not effective, and it's not taking me forward. And I think if I can do it, if I can put aside all the bad things I feel about our politicians and our different parts of our communities here in Israel, if I can put that aside and just ask myself, what's taking me forward, what's making the discourse more effective, more potent, what's doing that? Then it would be much easier. It's like people have a righteous feeling or a righteous responsibility to fix all the wrongs now. No, no, I don't want to fix all the wrongs. I don't even care at this point in time, when there are hostages in Gaza, I don't care that Netanyahu would take responsibility for itself, like, for taking responsibility. I care that he will do everything in his power to promise that the hostages return safe to their homes and that the rest of the citizens in Israel can live safe lives while the hostages are returning. This is the only thing that for me is important. And we are not in that sense. We haven't finished the event. I don't know how to say it in English, but we haven't finished yet. And I would love for my prime minister to take responsibility, to be able to say, I failed here and here and here, and I will not fail again, or I will from this point on do the best that I can. I, I, emotionally, I feel I have to hear it. But do I have to hear it right now? Right now I have to hear that he's doing the best that he can to bring the people back home. And this is my point of view now. There's people from Berry who lost everything that day and they have nothing to save anymore. And they cannot go on with their life without this being investigated, without Netanyahu taking responsibility. And I don't have anything bad about them. I think that I can never understand exactly where they are positioned. But I'm talking to the rest of Israel and I really, I would wish to see people rising above their comfort zone and above the rhetoric they're used to. If it's a crime minister, or if it's people screaming about how, how the left is weak and you can't trust them or whatever it is. I don't believe people are cynical, not also politicians. I believe they have a different perspective, a different reading of reality. And if we don't talk about this perspective about the point and their perspective on reality, then we don't have an effective conversation. Then we just shout. And I have no, no interest in just shouting and being right. I don't care about being right.
- [75:57]
A
Two questions and then we're done. The first one, imagine we've arrived at the day where the last hostage and the last body have come out of Gaza. What would you like to see happen that day in Gaza, in Israel, to Hamas generally in the region. What does that day look like to you and what do you hope to see that day?
- [76:17]
B
So in Israel, I would love, I would hope that there would be kind of. An accounting, an accounting kind of looking back and trying to understand how this happened and how this will never happen again. Not only from, from the attacker's point of view, but from our inside point of view. I would love to see all the people that were there on the 7th of October just say we are responsible and we step away and for new people to come and give us new air to breathe here and people that are more. Put their efforts inside and what happens inside Israel and are less, less polarized. And for a mixture, I would love for there to be like a mixture of things, you know, like not a religious party and a left wing party and Likud party for something to move internally in the way we separate between the groups. So that's like my, you know, chazonage.
- [77:33]
A
Your vision of redemption.
- [77:34]
B
Yeah, my vision of redemption is that we just mix up things, make them less polarized and in Gaza. So first of all, I want to see Hamas gone, gone completely. I mean, if I could have everything, this is one of the first things I would want. Obviously, when I put it in front of the hostages, I don't know exactly what, how it will happen, but I believe that Gaza can be a place where life is thriving. But in order for that to happen, it has to be very clear that they are not putting all the resources, effort, minds, and, I don't know, everything into killing us. So that can't happen together. They can't be planning the next 7th of October while Gaza is thriving. This obviously will not happen. And in that sense, I feel like there is a third party, very, very important party that has to have a very clear voice in order for this to happen. And it's the international community. And I've actually made it my job to talk about the responsibility of the international community inside this triangle of Israel and Palestine and Gaza. And I think that if there would be a very clear condemnation of terror and it would be completely, completely illegitimate, then there would be a path forward for us. Then we can start rehabilitating what's going on here in this region. Because the moral in clarity, like the moral confusion that the world is set in, is the best fertilizer for Hamas. They can, on one hand, murder us, rape us, kidnap us and hold us hostages, and on the other hand continue to enjoy the world's legitimacy, to be perceived as victims, even when they are the ones doing the atrocities. And between them and the world, there is the Palestinian people who have to suffer their, the Hamas control over them. And the world is, I don't know how to say it, so confused, is so confused about right and wrong and about what's moral and what's immoral. I remember my sister came back from a meeting she had abroad and in that meeting it was with a very high ranking politician and he told her yes, and he said about the first deed, he said the prisoner swap. And she was with Yael, her three year old daughter, and she pointed and she told him this, this is the prisoner swap. This is a prisoner. What are you talking about? How is it possible that you call a three year old child that was taken out of her bed under gunpoint into Gaza a prisoner?
- [80:41]
A
What country was that?
- [80:43]
B
I don't want to burn the bridges.
- [80:46]
A
Okay, fine. But it, wow, that's amazing.
- [80:51]
B
It's insane. It's insane. And we face it so much time, even when my whole family was there and I already knew that my father was murdered, I was Giving interviews. And the things I had to answer were crazy, were just crazy. And I think this is. People think to themselves, the listeners of these podcasts or whatever, the CNN viewers or BBC viewers, they think to themselves, I'm just a curious citizen of the world, right? They want to see what's going on in Gaza, in Israel. But they are actually active participants. And in some senses, I feel like they are giving the fuel to Hamas.
- [81:29]
A
I have argued that I think it will continue also because Hamas is sensitive. And Palestinian ideological factions beyond Hamas, also pflp, parts of Fatah, the ones that produce terrorism and have shattered the peace process and shattered the Israeli left over the decades. They do draw a lot of strength from this. And the tragedy is a great deal of the tragedy is for us. And I'm very cognizant that I'm speaking to you. But most of the tragedy is on the Palestinian side. They have destroyed that side, not our side.
- [82:00]
B
No, I mean, I think we have to talk about it. Because if you are pro Palestinian, you have to be against terror and against Hamas, because as long as there is terror, Israel will not be able to rehabilitate or to give trust in Palestinians and to give them a good life. It's not possible to do. You cannot shake the arm of the person who is holding a knife at you. It's crazy. It's crazy. So if you put aside the terror, we will be able to send that handover. And I think that people were not. And I said it when I was in the meetings in the US and everyone I said, releasing the hostages and getting rid of Hamas should be a motivation of everyone who sees themselves as pro Palestinians. It's so simple. You know that my parents, neighbor, my mother and my aunt, the Wednesday, it was October 4th, Wednesday, they were in a peace conference with women doing peace, a movement in Israel of women, Palestinian women and Israeli women that are fighting for peace. On Saturday, we know that the terrorists knew the houses of the peace fighters in Beiri and had a list of their names of these women. And they went house to house and killed them and murdered them. Because in their eyes, everyone who is fighting for peace is actually fighting against Hamas. Because what Hamas wants is all of Israel is the complete erasing of Israel. He doesn't want peace. And they actually told this to my mother when they were holding her hostage. They said to her, you go back to Florida or Germany, wherever you came from, you go back. Because next time, this is just a drill. This is 10% of what we are able to do. And next Time. You will not follow such nice guys. This is what they tell her when they are holding her in gunpoint as a hostage. They told her it's not 48 borders, it's not 67 borders. It's everything that we want. So how can we even start to go forward with this kind of agenda and the world doesn't see it? I don't know. It's crazy.
- [84:14]
A
It's a tragedy for the Palestinians that they're led by people who insist on this being all or nothing.
- [84:21]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [84:21]
A
Only us or only them. Because we're unlikely to lose that just at the bluntest possible.
- [84:29]
B
We don't have the privilege to just, you know.
- [84:34]
A
Yeah. Final question, and thank you so much for your time and for walking us through all of that. Are you hopeful for the future? Are you optimistic? I can't imagine your family not being. But it's been a year. How are you feeling about the future?
- [84:52]
B
Yeah, I mean, I feel that. It's not a question of passive observation. I mean, I am optimistic, but I feel it's our job to create the future. Everyone. Everyone, really. I look at my children, I say, okay, I'm raising them up in Israel. I have to work my off so they will have a good life here. It's not grandiose. It's not like I'm saying that, you know, I'm going to fight that. No, it's. It starts with how we are viewing our neighbors. It starts with how we are choosing our words. It starts with our. With how we are going on about our lives. But it's our job. It's our job. And as long as I have some control of it, I will do the best I can. And that's how I will raise my children up. And that's how my parents brought me up, right? Not to be passive, not to wait for someone to help me, to be active, to take charge of my life and to do whatever I can to make it good. And I think this is, to answer your first question, this is the thing that made me go through with this. Not seeing myself only as a victim, but seeing myself as someone with a. With agency over my life. I choose how to react. I choose how to go about with my actions. And I'm not just a victim, and we are not just victims waiting to see if it's good or bad. What will the future bring? Will it be good or bad? I don't know. No, we are doing it. The future is tomorrow. It's now. It's how we wake up. It's what we choose to do with our lives. And in that sense, I'm very optimistic because the people I know are very good people. And. And I hope that there will be more and more.
- [86:36]
A
The future is a good one, because we're going to make it. So.
- [86:38]
B
Yeah.
- [86:40]
A
Thank you, Shaked Helen, for coming on, folks. See you in episode six. Can't possibly end it better than that, right? Thank you.