Episode 54: Can Israel be both Sparta and Athens? With Dan Schueftan

Podcast: Ask Haviv Anything
Host: Haviv Rettig Gur
Guest: Prof. Dan Schueftan, Haifa University
Date: October 23, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Haviv Rettig Gur sits down with Professor Dan Schueftan, a veteran Israeli strategist, to assess the Gaza conflict through both historical and cultural lenses. The core discussion probes whether Israel can both defend itself with Spartan hardness and foster a constructive, pluralistic society—the "Athens" side. The conversation ranges from the history of Israeli disengagement, the entrenched cultural obstacles to peace, the ongoing reality of conflict management, the role of the international community, and the prospects for both Israel and its neighboring societies. The tone is blunt, deeply informed, and unafraid of pessimism or controversy.

Key Discussion Points

1. Historical Context and Israeli Disengagement

• Opening Question (04:30): Was the 2005 Gaza disengagement a good idea?
• Prof. Schueftan asserts the only way to maintain a Jewish, democratic state is to avoid governing large hostile Arab populations—hence, partition was both a strategic and moral necessity.

  "Ben Gurion understood... the only way a Jewish state can be is democratic. And if it is democratic and there is an Arab majority, they will vote us out of existence. And if it's not democratic, the Jews would not want to live there." (05:08)

• The real mistake, he contends, was Israel’s failure to respond "very, very violently" to early attacks from Gaza post-withdrawal:

  "If the New York Times is not outraged, it’s the wrong response... our mistake was not to respond immediately, from 2005 until October 7th, and we paid on October 7th for this mistake." (08:20)

• The need for "preventive violent" measures against "radical forces" is asserted (08:50).

2. The “Barbarian” and Cultural Obstacles to Peace

• Defining “Barbarian” (09:44): Schueftan uses the term “barbarians” to describe radical movements (Hamas, parts of Palestinian society, Hezbollah) in a civilizational sense, not racial.

  "They say... 'You Jews will lose because you love life. We will win because we love death.' ...They are proud to say that they are barbarians." (11:00)

• He draws a distinction between "civilized" Arab leaders (UAE, Jordan, Egypt) and what he sees as deeply ingrained cultural extremism among Palestinians, rooted in the denial of a Jewish state.

  "There is something profoundly wrong with the Palestinian national movement because it is based on the destruction of the Jewish state." (15:45)

• Notable quote:

  "From the river to the sea. Palestine will be free. Of Jews. Okay? This is the essence of it." (17:35)

• DELIBERATE use of civilian infrastructure for military purposes underscores, for Schueftan, a "barbaric" disregard for life (18:20).

3. Limits of Containment, Deterrence, and Withdrawal

• Haviv reflects frustration at the “fake” outrage over Hamas’s actions and the failure to generate deterrence through "massive response” historically (19:11–22:48).
• Schueftan supports continued withdrawal and disengagement, but with a shift:

  "What I call violent maintenance... When they prepare to make war, we will destroy their preparations." (23:20)

• He decries international support for Palestinians with no accountability for violence, referring caustically to "dumb Americans, dumb Europeans, and even some dumb Israelis".

  "Palestinians, the only people in the world that gets billions of dollars every year for generations and forever..." (25:22)

• On International double standards (26:58):

  "They are encouraged... by people in Harvard who are analytically underdeveloped and morally twisted to continue. Because people in Harvard work against Israel for the Palestinians before Israel even responded to October 7th." (28:00)

4. The Sparta-Athens Dilemma: Building and Defending Israel

• Combining Strength and Civilization (29:30): Schueftan’s recurring analogy—Israel as “Sparta when we must, Athens when we can.”

  "Not to become Sparta and lose the essence, the constructive essence of what the Jewish state is about, and not to become so obsessed with trying to build a society that you forget you need to defend yourself." (29:58)

• He warns against European-style "progressivism" where “both hands [are] tied behind your back.”

5. Is De-Radicalization Possible? The Role of Culture

• Gur questions whether “de-radicalization” of Gaza is possible (32:13). Schueftan is unequivocal:

  "You cannot change culture unless people want to change their culture... I expect in the next generations we will also be fighting Gaza. There is no solution. People who believe in solutions should deal with crossword puzzles." (34:45)

• On failed attempts at solutions:

  "Every married person knows that some problems simply don't have a solution. What you need to do if you are a realist is to combine damage control and the use of opportunity." (36:27)

• Israeli periodic withdrawals or engagement depend strictly on the ability to prevent enemy military buildup, not on social engineering (46:30–48:57).

6. On Gaza’s Future: Damage Control, No Illusions

• The guests agree: Gaza cannot become stable, prosperous, or open while its society and external patrons (Turkey, Qatar) perpetuate its militant trajectory.

  "We will not have a rebuilt Gaza in the near future. We will perhaps build houses in Gaza, but not a society. There is something profoundly wrong with this society that they're not willing to change." (70:50)

• Best-case scenario: “Effective damage control,” not more. “It's not about finding solutions” (70:48; 74:18).

7. Israel's Response to October 7 and Jewish Resilience

• Both host and guest reflect on Israeli humility and strength post-October 7. Gur notes a "humility" among Israelis, a focus on fundamentals—no more "monsters growing on the border" (74:18).
• Schueftan, in contrast, emphasizes Israeli resilience and a refusal to succumb to pessimism:

  "I was born arrogant, but I'm today much more arrogant than before. Because first of all, look at the Israeli society. The Israeli society showed resilience of the kind that no other society ever showed before." (76:03)

8. Diaspora, Antisemitism, and the Jewish Future

• Gur asks about the wave of antisemitism post-Hamas attack and the impact on Diaspora Jews (78:35).
• Schueftan is deeply pessimistic about Jewish life outside Israel:

  "I thought that the termination of Jewish life in America will take a few generations. I now think it will come much, much sooner... This, I think, will go away, first of all, because of the degree of antisemitism that we've seen now." (79:40)

• He is equally worried about the insularity of Israel's ultra-Orthodox sector.
• On American and global Jewish identity:

  "They can't combine in a good way the commitment to an open society with a willingness to defend themselves against the enemies of the open society... And it saddens me." (82:30)

Memorable Quotes

• On Violence and Deterrence:

  "If the New York Times is not outraged, it's the wrong response." (08:20, Schueftan)

• On Palestinian Society:

  "Their sense of pride comes from killing Jews... If your only role model is somebody who killed Jews, then what do you expect from such a society?" (65:25, Schueftan)

• On “Damage Control” as Strategy:

  "My best realistic hope is an effective damage control. And also this is my prediction." (70:48, Schueftan)

• On Foreign Intervention:

  "I'm not waiting for perfection. I'm not waiting for the kind of peace everlasting that is not a reality in this part of the world." (52:55, Schueftan)

• On Diaspora Antisemitism:

  "The fact that I have a solution for myself—I live in a Jewish state, and I wouldn't live anywhere else—doesn't make my sadness about people who've chosen another way of life... less." (82:30, Schueftan)

• On Optimism and Agency:

  "A dumb optimist says things will be good, a smart optimist says things will be bad, but we will get stronger faster than things get worse... If they challenge us, we'll break their face." (84:28, Schueftan)

Important Timestamps

• 04:30: Opening discussion on Gaza disengagement—why partition was necessary.
• 09:44–19:10: On “barbarian” societies; radical ideologies; distinctions among Arab states.
• 22:48–29:45: Limits of deterrence; necessity of force and ongoing disengagement.
• 29:45–31:42: Israel as Sparta vs. Athens—combining defense and pluralism.
• 32:06–36:27: Cultural obstacles to peace; futility of de-radicalization efforts.
• 42:01–48:57: Disengagement realities; “damage control” over solutions.
• 55:00: Challenges and failures of Israeli intelligence in Gaza.
• 58:58: Continued conflict and low expectations for Gaza’s future.
• 70:48: Schueftan’s summary: "Damage control," not rebuilding, is Israel’s best hope in Gaza.
• 76:03: Israeli resilience and "arrogance" post-October 7th.
• 79:40–83:50: The decline of Diaspora Jewish life and Schueftan's pessimism.
• 84:28: “Smart optimism” for Israel’s future.

Conclusion

The episode provides a piercing, often bleak, yet analytically sharp perspective on Israel’s predicament in Gaza and the broader region. Schueftan’s philosophy is unsparing: Israel must learn to manage intractable conflicts with “damage control,” maintain deterrence through credible force, and focus its energies on building a prosperous society at home—resolutely pragmatic, even as dreams of peace remain out of reach. The harsh critique of both international actors and Palestinian self-destruction is balanced—if only a little—by faith in Israeli resilience and a stoic, sometimes fierce optimism for the Jewish state’s future.