Podcast Summary: Ask Haviv Anything — Episode 58

Title: Rebuilding after disaster with ex-hostage Tal Shoham
Host: Haviv Rettig Gur
Guest: Tal Shoham
Date: November 9, 2025

Overview

In this moving episode, Haviv Rettig Gur speaks with Tal Shoham, a former hostage held by Hamas for 505 days following the October 7 attack on Kibbutz Be’eri. Shoham recounts the horrors of captivity, the depth of human resilience in the face of extreme trauma, and offers profound reflections on hatred, rebuilding, forgiveness, and the future of both Israeli and Gazan societies. The conversation is intimate, honest, and interwoven with broader questions facing Israel and the Jewish world after catastrophe.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Return of Hostages and Initial Emotions

• Tal Shoham describes the overwhelming relief and sense of release felt after the last hostages he knew were returned.
  • Quote:
    "I feel such a big weight that was released from my shoulders and chest and I can breathe normally now and start to look to gaze into the future now. And it's remarkable time now for me." (03:10)
• Shoham talks about giving space and time to fellow released hostages, echoing a feeling of “now there is time”—a contrast to the timeless, suspended reality underground.
  • Quote:
    "In the tunnel, they used to, they were the, the terrorists were obsessed that we won't know the time and date. ... When I was released, I told myself, now there is time." (04:39)

2. October 7: The Day of the Attack

• Shoham recounts the surreal, chaotic moments when Hamas attacked Kibbutz Be'eri.
• He describes the "tornado" of violence, losing his father-in-law, and the incomprehensible decisions that left his family alive while neighbors were killed.
  • Quote:
    "Everything went so fast and without any sense of logic into it. ... the conversation, which was only few seconds of looking them in the eye, signaling them that we are surrendering to their hands and emphasize on the fact that there are children and women in the room. Somehow it got to them and they decided to kidnap us and not murdering us." (07:15, 09:18)
• Haviv highlights the randomness: “The entire street was murdered that day… you convinced them. There was a conversation in which you convinced them to kidnap rather than kill.” (08:54)

3. The Kidnapping and Journey to Gaza

• Tal described multiple life-or-death encounters, including advocating for his life directly to his captors:
  • Quote:
    "I say to myself, okay, you were kidnapped, they didn't kill you, and you're probably gonna be like the 'latch elite' five, six years in captivity. And then I decided that no matter how they will treat me and where I will be and for how long, I will demand from them a human standard, I won't let them take me to a subhuman level." (12:08)
• The experience of being paraded through Gaza, maintaining dignity and refusing to show fear:
  • Quote:
    "I decided that I won't show any fear. So I looked them in the eye... and I just waved to them. I told them good morning. And I treated it like it's a normal thing to be there. Although of course it's really not." (15:13)

4. Solitude, Survival, and Inner Strength

• Shoham shares the torment of having no knowledge about his family’s fate. He describes obsessive thoughts, rehearsing funerals in his mind to achieve emotional survival:
  • Quote:
    "I decided that to be free in myself, I need to accept their death as I accept mine. … I give a eulogy, a full page to every one of them." (17:20)
• He credits his decades-long spiritual journey for his resilience, emphasizing surrender and protecting inner life as crucial to survival:
  • Quote:
    "I had 23 years of spiritual journey when it happened. ... All the impressions that we are used to are not there. So the feelings start to be really, really acute. ... Then I started more and more to discover how to surrender ... to this reality." (20:56)
• Haviv reflects on the power of finding God or inner resilience in darkness:
  • Quote:
    "In the dark you find God talking back. ... Do you feel you come away from it stronger?" (22:52)
    • Tal: "Any experience that didn’t kill me will make me stronger. ... I'm much, much stronger now than I was before." (23:50)

5. Life in the Tunnels

• Vivid descriptions of deprivation, squalor, and psychological torment:
  • "It's a really, really narrow tunnel... no circulation of air and it was really hard to breathe... We received a shower only once every 21 days... most of the time we received really little amount of food... it was a deep and extreme starvation..." (25:40)
  • "The guards were bullying us all the time... they go out of their character to find ways to torture us."
• Shoham explains the reality of Hamas’ tunnel infrastructure and humanitarian aid theft:
  • Quote:
    "They used to brag upon the fact that they stole the humanitarian aid that came into Gaza. ... They piled it in their tunnel or their rooms underground." (31:57)

6. Humanizing the Enemy?—Reflections on Gazan Society

• Haviv presses Shoham on his compassion for Gazans, questioning how, after such experience, he still voices some sympathy.
  • Shoham clarifies:
    • All he encountered—even educated civilians—were part of or supporters of Hamas.
    • Gaza’s society, he argues, is steeped in hatred of Jews, and most adults are either active participants or complicit.
    • Quote:
      "They are not supporting Hamas. They are part of Hamas. ... Hamas, it's a voluntary organization which they go to work, they teach in schools, ... and then they go to fight for the jihad, for their religious war against Jews and Israelis." (34:53)
• On hope: Despite this environment, Shoham maintains children are innocent but are being held hostage by this ideology.
  • Quote:
    "Children everywhere are godly and need to be protected... their path is like locked to death and misery. And it's really unfortunate." (38:15)

7. Scenes of Release and Family Rebuilding

• Coming back to the world after captivity:
  • "It's really hard to describe how amazing and wonderful the experience is of being in a tomb underground for such a long time and then coming out to the fresh air..." (40:47)
• Family Resilience and Healing:
  • Shoham describes the slow, ongoing process of helping his children learn to trust again and separating "bad people" from "good people" in how they retell their ordeal.
  • "Both of them remember everything. ... The first thing that they did and we are doing now is to separate between the bad people and the good people." (45:37)
  • The family maintains open conversation without shying away from reality, but offers protection and security to foster healing.
  • Quote:
    "We cannot turn away from the fact that they experienced the cruelty and inhumane side of life... [but] we will address it and give them the feeling of protection and safety again." (47:37)

8. Lessons for Israel and the Future

• Haviv raises the widespread feeling of betrayal in Israeli society after October 7, asking: Can the nation recover?
• Tal is optimistic, but clear-eyed:
  • "Personally I feel really optimistic for the future and what the future can bring. ... There will be testing times... but I feel that we have the ability to do so." (51:29)
  • He acknowledges the DNA of Israeli society—division in normal times, unity in crisis—but warns that teamwork and togetherness are essential for survival.
  • "I think that there will be testing times and we as a nation, we will be tested. ... If we won't understand the craze to keep this unity between us and to find ways to bridge ... it will be much harder to survive the future." (51:29)
  • He doubts there will ever be “quiet” or “easy” lives for Israel:
    "I just want a quiet life in a small piece of land. And it seemed that it's not our destiny." (53:54)

9. Ending on Resilience and Optimism

• Haviv asks if Tal is still an optimist:
  • Tal replies, "Yeah, much more actually." (55:34)
• Reflection on optimism:
  • Haviv quotes Dan Chieftain, contrasting “smart” and “dumb” optimism.
  • Tal: "Yeah, there will be hard times, but it's going to a better place and we just need to go through it. ... I am optimistic that we will overcome them and become stronger on the way and resilient." (56:00, 57:20)

Notable Quotes

• On surviving in the tunnel:
  "Now there is time for everything. And we can take it step by step, slowly. We don't need to rush to anywhere." — Tal Shoham (04:39)

• On the enduring trauma and healing:
  "To be free in myself, I need to accept their death as I accept mine." — Tal Shoham (17:20)

• On compassion for Gaza’s children:
  "Children everywhere are godly and need to be protected ... Unfortunately their path is like locked to death and misery." — Tal Shoham (38:15)

• On optimism:
  "Any experience that they have that didn't kill me will make me stronger. ... I'm much, much stronger now than I was before." — Tal Shoham (23:50)

• On Israel’s future:
  "If we won't understand the craze to keep this unity between us ... it will be much harder to survive the future again as a country." — Tal Shoham (51:29)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:10 – Tal on the release of hostages and newly found relief
• 07:15 – Shoham recounts the attack and surrender moment
• 12:08 – The car ride to Gaza and assertion of dignity
• 15:13 – Being paraded in Gaza, refusing to show fear
• 17:20 – Coping through imagination of funerals and emotional acceptance
• 23:50 – Survival, spiritual insights, and feeling stronger
• 25:40 – Life and torture in the tunnels
• 34:53 – Civilians as Hamas, dual identities in Gazan society
• 38:15 – On children, cycles of hate, and lost innocence
• 40:47 – The moment of release and family reunification
• 45:37 – Approaching children's healing and restoration of safety
• 51:29 – Israeli society: unity, division, and national resilience
• 55:34 – Tal on optimism and the future

Tone and Language

The conversation is candid, reflective, and saturated with both pain and hope. Shoham speaks with directness, spiritual depth, and sometimes with gentle irony. Haviv is empathetic, occasionally incredulous, and relentless in pursuing both the intimate and the political implications of Shoham’s story.

Final Reflection

This episode is a powerful, firsthand account of survival, resilience, and the ongoing struggle to heal and rebuild—within one family and across a wounded nation. Shoham’s perspective is at once sobering and inspiring, insisting on the possibility of growth and strength even in the aftermath of unspeakable trauma.