Episode Summary: Ask Haviv Anything

Episode 59: Are Jews Indigenous to Israel?

Host: Haviv Rettig Gur
Date: November 13, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Haviv Rettig Gur tackles the central and contentious question: Are Jews indigenous to Israel? With characteristic depth and a touch of humor, Haviv unpacks the historical, theological, and political dimensions of Jewish identity and its persistent link to the Land of Israel. Drawing on history, political debates, Jewish religious tradition, and modern anti- and non-Zionist arguments, he analyzes why the question itself recurs and what it reveals about perceptions of Jewish identity—in Europe, the Arab world, and within Jewish communities.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The External Argument: Jews as Non-Indigenous Everywhere

• UN Debates, 1947 (00:15): Haviv describes how during the United Nations discussions to partition Palestine, Arab delegates argued Jews were "not a people, but a religion."
  • Quote:

    "The Jews are not a people, they're a religion. You can't establish a state for a religion." — Haviv, paraphrasing the Arab delegates (00:19)

• Irony of the Argument: The same delegates claimed Jews belonged wherever they resided (e.g., Jews in Germany as German, Jews in Iraq as Iraqi).
• Reality Check: In Europe and the Muslim world, Jews were consistently denied equal status—they were neither accepted as fully part of those nations nor empowered to fully participate (00:40–03:10).
  • Quote:

    "Nobody in all the long history of the Russian Empire seriously contended...or the actual legal regime of the Empire literally allowed the Jews to be Russians. They were always a distinct ethnic national minority and treated as such..." (00:40)

• The European Experience: From Poland to Germany, Jews faced segregation and limitations; even efforts of emancipation (e.g., France post-Revolution) failed socially.
• Liberation and Backlash: When Jews were briefly emancipated and integrated, a powerful, organized antisemitism arose, rooted in resisting Jewish equality.
  • Quote:

    "All of these social processes of massive, rabid, demonic anti-Semitism came into play because the Jews were liberated from that social underclass." (02:28)

• Jews as "Oriental": Jews were long seen as non-native, called "Oriental" in Europe, never regarded as indigenous.

2. Arab Leadership: Jews as Both Non-National and Threatening

• Arab Leaders at UN (03:13): Argued Jews in the Arab world were merely "Iraqis of Jewish religion," not a nation.
  • Contradiction: The same leaders threatened violence against these Jews if a Jewish state was recognized elsewhere.
  • Quote:

    "[The Syrian delegate] said literally, 'if Palestine is turned into two states and there's a Jewish state in Palestine, that will have catastrophic consequences on the Jews of the Arab world.'" (03:42)

• Summary: Jews were always treated as a separate nation—accepted as indigenous nowhere and regarded with suspicion everywhere.

3. The European Political Debate: Example of England

• England, 1829 (04:40): In Parliament, arguments over expanding suffrage to Catholics turned on distinctions between religions and "nations."
  • Catholics were granted rights as they were "nationally English;" Jews were still considered a "different nation."
  • Quote:

    "Catholics might be a different religion from us...but they're at least English nationally. You know what? Jews are a different nation." (05:20)

• Reform vs. Prejudice: Even amidst radical liberalization, Jewish "otherness" was institutionalized.

4. Jewish Religious Tradition: The Land at the Core

• Foundational Narrative (06:39): For Haviv, this is the heart of the matter:
  • Jewish religion, identity, and practice are inseparable from the Land of Israel.
  • Rituals (breaking a glass at weddings, leaving a home unplastered) are direct allusions to exile and Jerusalem.
  • Quote:

    "Our religion makes no sense without this land. There have never not been Jews in this land." (06:53)

• Historical Echoes:
  • Rabbi Yehuda Halevi ("my heart is in the east") and Maimonides both ended their lives seeking or returning to the land.
  • Jewish prayer, longing, and ritual for two millennia center on Israel.

5. Internal Jewish Debates About Zionism

• Zionism and Timing (09:34): Even the sharpest intra-Jewish arguments (e.g., religious Zionists vs. ultra-Orthodox) are not about belonging but about when and how to return—never about whether the land is essential.
  • Quote:

    "The actual connection to the land and indigeneity in it is shared by every anti-Zionist, ultra-Orthodox Jew. The only kind of Jew that does not actually believe that [is]...a Jew who doesn't believe in Judaism..." (10:38)

6. Modern Attempts to Redefine Jewish Identity

• Secular/American Movements (11:50): Early 20th-century Reform Judaism in the U.S. tried to divorce Jewishness from the land; this effort was short-lived.
  • Haviv highlights: it's near impossible to practice Judaism as Judaism and erase Israel from liturgy and culture.
  • Quote:

    "You can't pray from a Jewish prayer book. You have to rewrite it, try it, pick up a Jewish prayer book and start crossing it out." (12:24)

• Yiddish and Hebrew (12:45–15:10):
  • Some Jewish New York intellectuals claim Hebrew is "Zionist" and try to revive Yiddish instead.
  • Haviv notes this is a tiny, marginal phenomenon, and that "real" Yiddish is vibrant among ultra-Orthodox Jews—mainstream Hebrew remains the uniting language.
  • Quote:

    "If the Zionists that you don't like ideologically can push you away from Hebrew, you're not all that connected to the Jewish bookshelf itself that you claim anchors you." (14:46)

7. Indigeneity: The Inseparability of Judaism from the Land

• Theological and Cultural Anchoring (15:10–16:32):
  • Detaching Jewishness from Israel means reinventing Judaism from scratch—a nearly impossible task.
  • The attempt to do so has always failed, not because of lack of effort, but because "it literally makes no sense."
  • Quote:

    "How hard is it, in fact, to remove the land of Israel from Judaism? It isn't just that it appears, I don't know, 200 times in the prayer book. If you want to remove the land of Israel from Judaism, you need to reinvent Jewish liturgy from the bottom up. Can you reinvent Jewish liturgy from the bottom up and still call it Judaism? Good luck." (16:00)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Double Standards:

  • "When the Jews make that claim, suddenly they're not indigenous to that place. Suddenly they're indigenous to every single place that never thought they were indigenous." (04:00)

• On Jewish Military Participation in WWII:

  • "A million and a half Jews fought the Nazis but could not fight for Jews. When the Jews make that claim, suddenly they're not indigenous..." (04:07)

• On the Futility of “Judaism Without Israel”:

  • "Not because they're dumb, but because it literally makes no sense." (16:21)

Timeline of Important Segments

• 00:05 — Introduction of the central question and setup of UN debates
• 00:40–03:10 — Jewish experience in Europe and Arab world; emancipation, antisemitism, otherness
• 03:13–04:00 — Arab leadership contradictions and UN threats
• 04:40–05:45 — British Parliament debates on Jews as a "different nation"
• 06:39–09:20 — Jewish religious tradition and perpetual connection to the land
• 09:34–10:58 — Internal Jewish debates: religious and anti-Zionist positions
• 11:50–12:45 — Attempts to reinvent Judaism without Israel
• 12:45–15:10 — Language debates: Yiddish vs. Hebrew, marginal anti-Zionist movements
• 15:10–16:32 — The impossibility of disentangling Judaism from the Land of Israel

Tone and Style

Haviv blends scholarly rigor, historical anecdotes, and dry humor, maintaining a conversational style while addressing painful and complex topics. He is direct, clear, and often wry—especially when critiquing modern efforts to dissociate Judaism and Israel.

Final Thought

This episode asserts that the historical, cultural, and religious link between Jews and the Land of Israel is not a political invention, but intrinsic to Jewish identity and self-understanding—persistently affirmed by Jews and recognized (albeit begrudgingly or negatively) by their host societies for centuries. Denying this connection, according to Haviv, is both a historical distortion and a theological impossibility.