Podcast Summary: Ask Haviv Anything – Episode 66: Do BDS campaigns help Palestinians?
Host: Haviv Rettig Gur
Date: December 5, 2025
Episode Overview
In this episode, Haviv Rettig Gur tackles the complex and controversial question: "Do cultural boycotts of Israel, such as BDS campaigns, actually help Palestinians?" Drawing from Israeli perspectives, psychological analysis, and historical context, Haviv critically examines the assumptions behind boycott, divestment, and sanctions (BDS) strategies. He argues these campaigns not only fail to achieve their stated goals, but in some ways may be actively harmful to Palestinians. Throughout the episode, Haviv focuses on how Israelis actually perceive these actions, the dynamics of collective memory, and the unintended consequences of cultural boycotts.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. What Is a Boycott and How Does It Theoretically Work?
- Haviv breaks down boycotts as "an act of psychological pressure" meant to alter the cost-benefit analysis of the target:
"A boycott is essentially engaging in a battle where the battlefield is the psyche of the target... It's about how the target understands the cost it's paying for its behavior."
(00:09)
2. Flaws in BDS: Strategic and Psychological Misfires
- Haviv asserts the BDS movement's official goal is to eliminate the Jewish state, referencing their founding at the Durban Conference and advocacy for a one-state solution without Jewish self-determination (00:45–01:40).
- He argues this framing makes it "really hard" to raise psychological costs in Israelis; they see withdrawal from contested territories as existentially dangerous:
"Can you raise the cost through boycotts... high enough to make it worth taking on the cost that Israelis believe will happen, a withdrawal? I'm not sure you can. Boycotting is not going to get Israel out of the West Bank."
(02:14) - He notes Israeli fears of repeating history—citing post-Lebanon and post-Gaza experiences as traumatic precedents that inform current risk calculations (02:25–03:10).
3. The Israeli Narrative: Lessons of the 20th Century
- The BDS demand for the erasure of Jewish self-determination is seen by Israelis as a demand to "unlearn every lesson they learned in the 20th century" (03:35).
- Haviv evokes the collective memory of the Holocaust, global Jewish refugees, and repeated abandonment, stressing the existential motivation for maintaining a Jewish state:
"Nobody will save the Jews. The Jews are being told to unlearn every lesson they learned in the 20th century. And if they do not, they're going to be boycotted. How is that helping Palestinians?"
(03:55)
4. How BDS Positions Are Understood in Israel
- Israelis perceive BDS not as a critique of specific policies ("the occupation"), but as delegitimization of their existence and basic safety (04:15).
"What Israelis hear is a framing of the entirety of the Palestinian cause as the eradication of Israel, as the eradication of Jewish safety..."
(04:15) - This perception hardens attitudes and raises the psychological "cost" of accommodation rather than lowering it.
5. The Real Challenge: Changing Perceptions, Not Just Imposing Costs
- Haviv argues that creating real movement toward peace requires "lower[ing] the perceived costs among Israelis for withdrawal," something only Palestinians can accomplish by convincing Israelis of post-withdrawal safety (05:20).
"You need to create that sense among Israelis convincingly. And only Palestinians can do that. Not you activists abroad."
(05:30)
6. Irony and Counterproductivity of Cultural Boycotts
- Many Israeli artists, academics, and cultural figures most affected by international boycotts are actually those most opposed to the government's policies (07:20).
"Who are you boycotting? You're boycotting the people most likely to agree with you."
(07:40) - Haviv recounts the example of Amnesty International's Israel chapter, whose own activists—critical of the Gaza war—were boycotted for refusing to endorse the "genocide" label, demonstrating how boycotts target internal dissenters rather than hawks:
"What was Amnesty's response... to shut down the chapter and boycott those activists."
(09:05)
"...they lost friends. The Amnesty Israel people didn't have other job options. The Amnesty Israel people sacrificed for their activism... And they're the ones Amnesty International boycotts."
(09:35)
7. Core Critique: Boycotts as Moral Theater, Not Change Strategy
- The BDS movement, Haviv argues, shows "no discourse... of the effect of the second intifada, of the 140 suicide bombings on the Israeli public," ignoring Israeli psychology entirely (06:45).
"It's about placing the Israelis in the dock. It's about placing them in their rightful place morally."
(07:00) - The real result, he suggests, is a kind of symbolic ostracism (not actual leverage), which hardens national attitudes and undercuts change agents.
8. Bigotry, Double Standards, and Jewish Exceptionalism
- Haviv draws a comparison: if Amnesty had shut down a hypothetical Chinese chapter for using the "wrong" language on Uyghur repression, it would clearly be bigotry (11:10).
- The singling out of Israelis is experienced as an attack on the right of Jews to national self-determination:
"It's about taking the Jews and putting them in their rightful place. It's about the idea that Jews alone among the peoples of this earth can't have self determination. And it's a catastrophe for Palestinians because it's not about making a change on the ground." (11:45)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On the psychological flaw in BDS:
"It's not about objective costs, it's about how the target understands the cost it's paying for its behavior." (00:11)
-
On the impossibility of BDS pressuring Israeli withdrawal:
"Can you raise the cost through boycotts, divestments and sanctions on Israel for staying in the West Bank?... I'm not sure you can. Boycotting is not going to get Israel out of the West Bank." (02:14)
-
On lessons of Jewish history:
"The very idea that you have a nation state to defend yourselves after the 20th century... is a great and vast and abiding crime." (03:50)
-
On targeting the Israeli left:
"Who are you boycotting? You're boycotting the people most likely to agree with you." (07:40)
-
On BDS and moral posturing:
"It's about placing the Israelis in the dock. It's about placing them in their rightful place morally." (07:00)
-
On the practical impact of activism abroad:
"If you want to help Palestinians, you need to lower the perceived costs among Israelis for withdrawal... Only Palestinians can do that. Not you activists abroad." (05:25)
-
On the catastrophe for Palestinians:
"It's a catastrophe for Palestinians because it's not about making a change on the ground... People telling you that that's what it's about, convincing you that that's what it's about, are lying to you or themselves." (12:00)
Important Timestamps
- 00:05 – Introduction to the concept of boycott as psychological warfare
- 01:10–02:30 – BDS’s official goals and how Israelis interpret them
- 03:30–04:00 – Historical traumas and Israeli self-perception
- 05:15–05:40 – The only realistic scenario for Israeli withdrawal
- 07:20–08:05 – Irony of cultural boycotts targeting the Israeli left
- 09:00–09:50 – Amnesty International Israel chapter case study
- 11:10–12:20 – The difference between true advocacy and bigotry
Summary of Tone & Takeaways
Haviv’s tone is direct, personal, sometimes sardonic, and always rooted in a deep understanding of Israeli psychology and history. He challenges both the effectiveness and moral framing of BDS, warning that it is not only futile but counterproductive and even damaging to those—Palestinians—it purports to help. The episode is an impassioned, nuanced critique urging listeners, especially international activists, to reconsider boycotts as a strategy and focus instead on understanding the workings of the society they wish to influence.